When did 4 attacks become the norm?

[Eashamahel]

Sorry, wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I had a quick question I was wondering if someone could answere for me.

When did the base +2 attacks get added into the Rifts system, as in, what time? Can anyone point to the specific World Book it took effect at?

[kaid]

I know it was like that in rifts when it first came out I think it was like that in robotech as well but I cannot recall for sure. I am pretty sure rifts was always base 2 attacks plus whatever you get for HtH. Please note even today if you start with hand to hand assassin you start with 3 attacks not four.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sorry, wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I had a quick question I was wondering if someone could answere for me.

When did the base +2 attacks get added into the Rifts system, as in, what time? Can anyone point to the specific World Book it took effect at?

Sometime around Atlantis.

[Killer Cyborg]

I know it was like that in rifts when it first came out

No, it was not.

Here's how I broke it down in a previous post on the subject:

The statement that has been quoted several times now is a pretty straight forward and clear statement. All players automatically start with two attacks. How does that not come across clearly to you and why?
Additonal attacks are gained from Hand to Hand skills and boxing. Again how is it you or anyone can say it has not been there since day one in Rifts?

I have first printings of the RMB & Conversion Book and there it is.

HOW do you misintrepret "ALL PLAYERS START WITH 2 ATTACKS?" Main Book first printing 1990. Where is the room for error? All Players? Start? With 2 Attacks?

I honestly do not see how you can misunderstand that?

I'll explain.

First of all, the statement itself is likely a mistake. For one thing, it's in the psychic combat section; NOT the normal combat section.
For another, it is directly contradicted on p. 28 under the physical skills section, in the description of hand to hand skills.
"Characters without combat training have one hand to hand attack per melee at levels one and two, but get a second attack at level three and a third attack at level nine."

Also, under the HTH skill descriptions (p. 37), HTH Basic says "Two attacks per melee" at level one. Not "+2 attacks per melee," like it says everywhere else that bonus attacks are described just "Two attacks per melee."

And on the same page, HTH Expert and Martial Arts both say; "Two attacke per melee to start."
I don't see how that's unclear. A first level character with HTH Expert/MA gets Two Attacks Per Melee to start.... NOT two bonus attacks, not +2 attacks, just two attacks per melee to start.
This is clearly describing a base number of attacks.

Furthermore, the writers themselves (Meaning KS) never use the TAFL (Two Attacks For Living) in the Rifts book.

p. 39, under "Determining the Number of Attacks Per Melee and Combat Bonuses"
"This is how it works. Players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high-tech robot or power armor:
1) The pilot's normal, hand to hand combat skill, and 2) The pilot's Robot Combat skill. Simply combine the number of attacks gained from each skill. The total number indicates the total attacks per melee possible."

No mention of any free two attacks for living.
Only two factors; HTH skill, and Robot Combat skill.

Furthermore, "Most first level pilots, with both skills, will have a total of four attacks per melee."
That's 4 attacks; two from HTH skill, and two from Robot/PA combat skill.
NOT 6 attacks, which is what would be common if KS was using the TAFL.

p. 40 (discussing characters with Pilot: Robots & Power Armor skill, but no Robot Combat skill)
"A first level character will usuall have two attacks per melee."
"If a pilot does not have hand to hand combat training, he or she is limited to one attack per melee and NO special bonuses."

p. 40
"For Example: A character piloting a Coalition Urban Assault bot (Enforcer UAR-1) has five attacks per melee."
Why 5?
If KS was using TAFL, then he'd have at least 6 attacks; 2 for living, 2 from HTH, and 2 from Robot Combat.

p. 42-44
"An Example of Combat"
Portrays a battle between a UAR-1 and some bandits.
The UAR-1 has 5 attacks. The rebel SAMAS pilot only has 4.
If KS was using TAFL, then the UAR-1 would have 6+ attacks, and so would the SAMAS (unless he had no robot combat skill, in which case he'd only have 1-2 attacks according to the rules cited above).

p. 249
Animalistic supernatural predators have 1d4 attacks per melee.
This makes sense if the average is assumed to be 2-3 attacks per melee... the animals might be a bit slower or a bit faster than the normal human. At worst, they'd be just as slow as an untrained human (1 attack).
It does NOT make sense if the average number of attacks for a human is 4-5... that would mean that even an untrained human would be twice as fast as 25% of the supernatural predators, and that the fastest supernatural predators would only be as fast as a normal 1st level human with HTH: Basic.

p. 251
Intelligent Supernatural Monsters also get only 1d4 attacks per melee.
So ditto all the above for predators, only more-so.

p. 256
A Typical Coalition Grunt is first level, has HTH: Expert, and has 2 attacks per melee.
A Typical Coalition SAMAS has HTH Expet + Elite Power Armor Combat for a total of 4 attacks per melee.
A Typical High-Tech Bandit has HTH: Expert and 2 attacks per melee.

So if you have any explanation for how KS meant to include the TAFL in the main book, but neglected to ever use it or mention it outside of that one passage under psychic combat, and somehow neglected to edit out all the rules contradicting the TAFL... let's hear it!

Personally, I don't think he's that incompetent.
I can buy him making a single mistake in the psychic combat section more easily than I can buy him making 8+ mistakes spread out all through the book.

The statements in the RMB that are along the lines of "all player characters start with two attacks" are based on an assumption that all PCs are going to have HTH combat skills, and that their HTH combat skill is NOT going to be Assassin (as Assassin is reserved for Evil characters, and there is an assumption that PCs won't be Evil).
The references to gaining attacks from HTH combat skills are referring to the fact that characters with HTH skills gained attacks as they leveled up, NOT to stacking the base attacks from the forms to a mythical 2 attacks that "everybody" always gets.

Now, some people usually pop up to claim that the TAFL was intended for PCs only, and that's why NPCs don't have them.
But that still skips over the references to the average PC having only 2 attacks at first level (or 4 attacks if they're robot pilots), and it ignores the sentence from Rifts, p. 37
(Right after the mention that all PCs get two attacks to start):
"A typical non-player character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat and/or boxing skill additions."
That's the same description of attacks as when it describes PCs.
NPCs and PCs work the same way when it comes to determining attacks per melee.


Here's another recounting that I did.
There's some overlap with the other recounting, but there's some additional references as well:

Two attacks for living are in the core rules...

1. No, they weren't.
2. If they were, then please enlighten me on the following things:
p. 35:
"Characters without combat training have only one attack per melee and have no automatic parry."

p. 37 Under Hand to Hand: Expert and Martial Arts
"Level 1 Two attacks per melee to start"
Under HTH: Assassin
"one attack per melee"
Any time a character gets bonus attacks, they are listed as "+1 Attack(s)." Never as just "x attacks per melee" and definitely not "x attacks to start."

p. 39 under "Determinign the Number of Attacks per Melee and Combat Bonuses"
"Players will find two skills that exclusively determine the pilot's number of attacks when piloting a high-tech robot or power armor: 1) The pilot's normal, hand to hand comabt skill, and 2) The pilot's Robot Combat skill. Simply combine the number of attacks gained from each skill. the total number indicates the total attacks per melee possible. Most first level pilots, with both skills, will have a total of FOUR attacks per melee."

p. 40
"For Example: A character piloting a Coalition Urban Assault bot (Enforcer UAR-1) has five attacks per melee."
This can make sense if the pilot has 2 attacks from his HTH skill, one attack from boxing, and two from his Robot Combat skill.

Also on p. 40 (emphasis added):
"For example: A Coalition Urban Assault Bot is up against four bandit robots. The pilot decides to launch four of his missiles at one enemy. That's one attack, leaving three more that melee. He can not fire the four missiles simultaneously at all four of the enemy. To strike all four, the pilot must fire at each individual target seperately. However, this will take up all four of the pilot's attacks that melee."
Again, this only makes sense if he has 2 attacks from HTH and 2 attacks from Robot Combat.
No 2 attacks for living.

p. 42-44 "An Example of Combat"
The SAMAS pilots only have 4 attacks each, and the UAR-1 Enforcer pilot only has 5 attacks each. Again, no Two Attacks For Living (TAFL, for short).

p. 194 SAMAS armor.
The C-40R has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS SAMAS Pilot would be 6.

p. 196 The UAR-1 Enforcer
The C-50R rail gun has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Enforcer Pilot would be 6.

p. 198 The Spider-Skull Walker
The C-100R rail guns has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Skull-Walker Pilot would be 6.

The CR-4T Laser Turrets have an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a CS Skull-Walker Pilot would be 6.

p. 223 The Glitter Boy
The Boom Gun has an ROF of "Equal to number of combined hand to hand attacks (usually 4-6)."
2 for HTH, 2 for Robot Combat Elite, and another 1 or two from boxing and/or high level.
If you include the TAFL, then the minimum number of attacks for a Glitter Boyr Pilot would be 6.

p. 249
A randomly rolled Animalistic Predator only has 1d4 attacks.
If the PCs have the TAFL, then this means that the very fastest of these wupernatural predators will be only as fast as a low-end level 1 character.

P. 251
The Intelligent Supernatural Monsters have the same number of attacks; 1d4.

p. 256
-The Typical CS Grunt has HTH Expert and only 2 attacks per melee. No TAFL.
-The Typical CS SAMAS has HTH Expert + Elite Power Armor Combat training for a total of 4 attacks per melee.
No TAFL.
-All listed dinosaurs have 2 attacks per melee. If PCs had TAFL, then a first level scholar with HTH basic would be twice as fast as any dinosaur.
-A Typical High Tech Bandit or Headhunter has HTH: Expert and has 2 attacks per melee.
No TAFL.

Edit:
And here's ANOTHER old post where I address the issue:

When I went to Gen-Con and talked to Kevin Siembieda, I asked him about it.
He said that they were an addition to the rules, made after the first few books were released. He's a boxing fan, and he noticed that people can get of a LOT more than 2 attacks per 15 seconds of melee. So he changed the rules.

I ran the idea by him that PCs got more attacks than NPCs, and he said No.

After I got home from Gen-Con, I looked through the copy of CB1 Revised that I bought there. Guess what I found...

CB1R, p. 12-13
"Characters with no hand to hand combat traingin get one attack/action per melee round at levels 1, 6, and 12...."
"Note: It is rare for most characters not to have at least the Hand to Hand: Basic combat skill, but civilian NPCs like a child, high school student, housewife, white collar worker, or game designer, are probably only going to have one or two attacks per round..."

Which explains a bit of the reasoning going on in assuming that all PCs get 2 attacks per melee. It is assuming that they're going to have at least HTH Basic (and apparently forgets HTH Assassin, or assumes that PCs are going to be Good aligned).

More importantly, and I apparantly cannot emphasize this enough:
"Characters with any kind of formal hand to hand combat training (HTH Basic, Expert, Assassin, etc. automatically starts with two attacks per melee, in addition to those provided from their actual hand to hand combat skill. That means a first level character typically starts with FOUR attacks per melee round- two to begin and two from a specific Hand to Hand skill. Game Designer Note: This was not originally the case when I first designed the game system. Back then the character only got the number of attacks provided by the Hand to Hand skill (2), plus those gained from experience in that skill and any possible O.C.C. bonus. A lot of people seem to prefer fewer attacks per round tha more. That's okay. If that's what you like, start with only two from Hand to Hand skills and forget about the other two. Role-Playing is flexible, go with what you, as GM, feel most comfortable with. I only increased the starting number (four instead of two) because it seemed more realistic for characters who are trained in combat (including adventurers who need to know how to handle themselves in the wild)."

So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I know it was like that in rifts when it first came out I think it was like that in robotech as well but I cannot recall for sure. I am pretty sure rifts was always base 2 attacks plus whatever you get for HtH. Please note even today if you start with hand to hand assassin you start with 3 attacks not four.

It was actually *not* like that in Robotech, for clarity.

[Eashamahel]

Sometime around Atlantis.

That early, huh? As far as Coalition War Campaign it still seems to be in place, with HtH: Commando still stating "starts with two attacks", Skelebots still having the 5 attacks they had from the Sourcebook, and NPC's still having the rulebook-era number. Maybe by then it was implied that it was supposed to be included? As far as I can seem to remember, it really only came into being for our group when the Game Master's Guide came out with their Hand to Hand listings, and since we used that for skills, psionics, ect it just became the norm for all of the characters we built out of it.

I guess I just don't remember a World book that had a note in the beginning stating the change from then on or something to that idea, so was wondering if the GMG was when it officially came into being.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sometime around Atlantis.

That early, huh? As far as Coalition War Campaign it still seems to be in place, with HtH: Commando still stating "starts with two attacks", Skelebots still having the 5 attacks they had from the Sourcebook, and NPC's still having the rulebook-era number. Maybe by then it was implied that it was supposed to be included? As far as I can seem to remember, it really only came into being for our group when the Game Master's Guide came out with their Hand to Hand listings, and since we used that for skills, psionics, ect it just became the norm for all of the characters we built out of it.

I guess I just don't remember a World book that had a note in the beginning stating the change from then on or something to that idea, so was wondering if the GMG was when it officially came into being.

Oh, it didn't OFFICIALLY come into being until the RGMG... but it unofficially started getting sprinkled in earlier than that.
Which, I think, is what makes it hard to pinpoint- I'm betting that there are a number of books where they use it in some cases, and ignore it in others.
That's why I've never gotten more precise than "sometime around Atlantis," because I couldn't quite tell if the attacks were used IN Atlantis or not.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Just adding in my 2 cents. As far as Rifts is concerned, I can't tell you for sure. I think it was with the RGMG. Then I noticed it popping up in Hu2 and other games.

IIRC TMNT, Hu1r and other earlier games had PC's starting with the TAFL Aditional attacks were gained by leveling up your HTH skill, taking boxing, having a spiffy power etc.

The reason I say this is that none of the HtH powers listed any attacks at L1. Just the 2 for living

Along comes Hu2, RUE, etc,,, and you have the TAFL (in my opinion) take boxing +1 apm, and HtH (whatever, except assasin). At L1 the HtH says 2 apm. So logically we have everyone assuming that the L1 pc has 2 for living + 2 for HtH Basic/Ma/whatever = 4apm at L1 or 5 if you snag boxing as well.

At least that's how it went down in my eyes. I reserved the right to be wrong as it doesn't really matter. I still play old rules TMNT but use npc's from the rifts forum. makes them harder to beat at L1 is all

[Eashamahel]

Ah, thanks guys, that clears a lot up for me!

[Nekira Sudacne]

The statements in the RMB that are along the lines of "all player characters start with two attacks" are based on an assumption that all PCs are going to have HTH combat skills, and that their HTH combat skill is NOT going to be Assassin (as Assassin is reserved for Evil characters, and there is an assumption that PCs won't be Evil).
The references to gaining attacks from HTH combat skills are referring to the fact that characters with HTH skills gained attacks as they leveled up, NOT to stacking the base attacks from the forms to a mythical 2 attacks that "everybody" always gets.

Now, some people usually pop up to claim that the TAFL was intended for PCs only, and that's why NPCs don't have them.
But that still skips over the references to the average PC having only 2 attacks at first level (or 4 attacks if they're robot pilots), and it ignores the sentence from Rifts, p. 37

Actually, from my own previous searching, it's not 'Two attacks for PC's", the psychic combat section was copy-pasted from Heroes Unlimited, and in that game all heroes get 2 free attacks per melee, over and in addition to any combat training. this is not 'for living" or "for PC's", it was "for heroes". a heroic edge in a game about superheroes. and it wasn't just in the psychic combat section, it was elsewhere in the HU book and quite clear on how it works.

then they copied and pasted the psychic combat section, which was just one of many references to it in the HU book, into the Rifts book without noticing it.

That caused all subsequent confusion until the GMG decided to roll with it and add 2 attacks to the HtH skills directly.

[Killer Cyborg]

The statements in the RMB that are along the lines of "all player characters start with two attacks" are based on an assumption that all PCs are going to have HTH combat skills, and that their HTH combat skill is NOT going to be Assassin (as Assassin is reserved for Evil characters, and there is an assumption that PCs won't be Evil).
The references to gaining attacks from HTH combat skills are referring to the fact that characters with HTH skills gained attacks as they leveled up, NOT to stacking the base attacks from the forms to a mythical 2 attacks that "everybody" always gets.

Now, some people usually pop up to claim that the TAFL was intended for PCs only, and that's why NPCs don't have them.
But that still skips over the references to the average PC having only 2 attacks at first level (or 4 attacks if they're robot pilots), and it ignores the sentence from Rifts, p. 37

Actually, from my own previous searching, it's not 'Two attacks for PC's", the psychic combat section was copy-pasted from Heroes Unlimited, and in that game all heroes get 2 free attacks per melee, over and in addition to any combat training. this is not 'for living" or "for PC's", it was "for heroes". a heroic edge in a game about superheroes. and it wasn't just in the psychic combat section, it was elsewhere in the HU book and quite clear on how it works.

then they copied and pasted the psychic combat section, which was just one of many references to it in the HU book, into the Rifts book without noticing it.

That caused all subsequent confusion until the GMG decided to roll with it and add 2 attacks to the HtH skills directly.

Since I don't have 1st edition HU, I can't really analyze that theory.

[say652]

ok in the original core book in the hand to hand section it says any untrained person automatically has 2 attacks. so your 2 attacks was added to by hand to hand training. i mean a trained assassin having 1 attack? the heroes unlimited books reinforce the fact only to stop douchetard gm's from going how do you have so many attacks.......*reads and rereads character sheet*.........you have 2 to many by my math.........*kicks said DT in the nads*

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The statements in the RMB that are along the lines of "all player characters start with two attacks" are based on an assumption that all PCs are going to have HTH combat skills, and that their HTH combat skill is NOT going to be Assassin (as Assassin is reserved for Evil characters, and there is an assumption that PCs won't be Evil).
The references to gaining attacks from HTH combat skills are referring to the fact that characters with HTH skills gained attacks as they leveled up, NOT to stacking the base attacks from the forms to a mythical 2 attacks that "everybody" always gets.

Now, some people usually pop up to claim that the TAFL was intended for PCs only, and that's why NPCs don't have them.
But that still skips over the references to the average PC having only 2 attacks at first level (or 4 attacks if they're robot pilots), and it ignores the sentence from Rifts, p. 37

Actually, from my own previous searching, it's not 'Two attacks for PC's", the psychic combat section was copy-pasted from Heroes Unlimited, and in that game all heroes get 2 free attacks per melee, over and in addition to any combat training. this is not 'for living" or "for PC's", it was "for heroes". a heroic edge in a game about superheroes. and it wasn't just in the psychic combat section, it was elsewhere in the HU book and quite clear on how it works.

then they copied and pasted the psychic combat section, which was just one of many references to it in the HU book, into the Rifts book without noticing it.

That caused all subsequent confusion until the GMG decided to roll with it and add 2 attacks to the HtH skills directly.

TAFL originated in Heroes Unlimited, as Nekira states - but it was called out for "Heroes" - which automatically included any PCs, obviously. The problem with a lot of Palladium rules is the rampant cut-and-pasting; for instance, though KC likes to quote the "the HtH skills dont say +2 attacks per melee, etc" - neither did HU, but nevertheless, you added them anyway. It was, like almost everything else in the Rifts Main Book, cut-and-pasted from another existing book (High Tech combat from Robotech, H2H skills from HU, psychic and magic combat from HU and/or BtS) instead of being re-written specifically for the new game.

Conglomerated piles of cut-and-paste has led us to where we are today.

Honestly, to keep the power-creep/MUDflation down, i dont give anyone 2ATFL in any Palladium game, ever. I dont care if it isn't "realistic" that you "only" attack four times per round or whatever - realism takes a gigantic back seat to game balance and playability. All you have to remember is it is an abstract combat and damage system - your 'four attacks' just represent the four moments during the round when you had time to make a clean shot. Dont overthink it and move on.

[Killer Cyborg]

though KC likes to quote the "the HtH skills dont say +2 attacks per melee, etc" - neither did HU, but nevertheless, you added them anyway.

How do you know?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

though KC likes to quote the "the HtH skills dont say +2 attacks per melee, etc" - neither did HU, but nevertheless, you added them anyway.

How do you know?

Because the entry for Hand to Hand: Basic in HU:R is the exact same entry that is in the Rifts Main Book (1st printing), BtS 1st Edition, and Robotech. It's the same piece of typesetting - it even has the same, identical FLAWS in the typesetting. It is the equivalent of cut-and-paste in the pre-computer publishing era (which, coincidentally, i have a degree in).

It, like every other entry for H2H Basic of the era, reads exactly the same (since it is from the same typeset block):

Level 1 Two attacks per melee; +2 to pull/roll with punch,
fall, or impact.

It doesn't say "+2 attacks per melee", just "two attacks per melee" - but in Heroes Unlimited, you ADD those to your 2 attacks for being a Hero. In Rifts, (as of the start of the game, at least) those 2 "Hero" attacks didn't exist - but the hand-to-hand skill description was identical in any case, so even if the rule HAD been that PCs/Heros in Rifts got 2AFL, the H2H skill description wouldn't have said "+2 attacks" - because it was just re-blocked from the same typesetting tools used to create that section of EVERY Palladium book of the era.

Until much later, only Heroes had 2AFL/"Hero" attacks, but the skill descriptions were identical in all the books because of lazy typesetting.

[Killer Cyborg]

though KC likes to quote the "the HtH skills dont say +2 attacks per melee, etc" - neither did HU, but nevertheless, you added them anyway.

How do you know?

Because the entry for Hand to Hand: Basic in HU:R is the exact same entry that is in the Rifts Main Book (1st printing), BtS 1st Edition, and Robotech.

I was asking how you knew that you add the attacks in HU.
Your response does not fit the question.
I agree that Palladium cuts-and-pastes a lot.

in Heroes Unlimited, you ADD those to your 2 attacks for being a Hero.

How do you know?

[Nekira Sudacne]

it's in the combat section. "All heroes automatically get at least TWO attacks per melee, combined with the two from hand to hand expert it gives you a total of four."

[Killer Cyborg]

it's in the combat section. "All heroes automatically get at least TWO attacks per melee, combined with the two from hand to hand expert it gives you a total of four."

Hm.
I don't have the book, as I said, but can you get me a page number so I can check that when I get a chance?
Are there references to this elsewhere, or could it be a typo?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

in Heroes Unlimited, you ADD those to your 2 attacks for being a Hero.

How do you know?

Page 41, bottom right, under natural energy blasts:

"All heroes automatically get at least TWO attacks per melee, combined with the two from Hand to Hand: Expert it gives you a total of four" - part of an example. That was just the first mention i found while making myself a late night snack.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Page 127 - Psionic Heros - right hand column, about 2/3 of the way down, under the "Attacks per Melee (Hand to Hand)" heading:

"As with ALL superheroes, psionic characters automatically get two attacks per melee. Additional attacks must be developed through combat skills."

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Special Training - The Ancient Master
Page 153

Hand to Hand: Martial Arts
15th Level
Attacks Per Melee: 8 (this includes the two attacks automatic to all heroes and one additional attack from boxing)

edit:

Special Training - The Hunter/Vigilante
Page 156
Right hand column, 'Other Stuff' heading, Attacks per melee:
"As with ALL heroes, the hunter automatically gets two attacks plus those gained from hand to hand skills"

[Killer Cyborg]

Page 127 - Psionic Heros - right hand column, about 2/3 of the way down, under the "Attacks per Melee (Hand to Hand)" heading:

"As with ALL superheroes, psionic characters automatically get two attacks per melee. Additional attacks must be developed through combat skills."

a) I'm really curious why this keeps popping up in the psionics section.
b) To me, "additional attacks must be developed through combat skills" means "as you level up, you get more attacks, if you have combat skills," NOT "You add the base number of attacks listed for the combat skill to another base number of attacks, and start with the total."

Special Training - The Hunter/Vigilante
Page 156
Right hand column, 'Other Stuff' heading, Attacks per melee:
"As with ALL heroes, the hunter automatically gets two attacks plus those gained from hand to hand skills"

See B above.


Nekira's quote*, though, currently seems pretty solid, if I can verify it.

*And your first quote

[Killer Cyborg]

in Heroes Unlimited, you ADD those to your 2 attacks for being a Hero.

How do you know?

Page 41, bottom right, under natural energy blasts:

"All heroes automatically get at least TWO attacks per melee, combined with the two from Hand to Hand: Expert it gives you a total of four" - part of an example. That was just the first mention i found while making myself a late night snack.

Nice!
I'll check that out.
I just bought the PDF of 1st Edition HU from DriveThruRPG.

[Killer Cyborg]

in Heroes Unlimited, you ADD those to your 2 attacks for being a Hero.

How do you know?

Page 41, bottom right, under natural energy blasts:

"All heroes automatically get at least TWO attacks per melee, combined with the two from Hand to Hand: Expert it gives you a total of four" - part of an example. That was just the first mention i found while making myself a late night snack.

Nice!
I'll check that out.
I just bought the PDF of 1st Edition HU from DriveThruRPG.

Yup; that's exactly what it says.
In Rifts (p. 34), they changed the passage to read:
If the creature has FOUR hand to ahnd attacks, it can fire energy blasts as often as FOUR times per melee (15 seconds).

So it seems like yes, those attacks were present in HU, and some cut-and-pasted stuff may have accidentally implied that they were present in Rifts, though they weren't actually present.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

HU was the king of attack-inflation.

My second HU character, a "speedster" type - had, i think, close to 10 attacks at level one.

An Experiment with 1 Major/3 Minor:
2 AFL
2 from H2H Expert
1 From Boxing
1 from Extraordinary PP Minor Power
1 from Radar Minor Power
2 from Sonic Speed

so, yeah.. 9 attacks at level one. HU is/was crazy.

[Killer Cyborg]

P. 290 of HU1, though, has this passage:

The Typical Average Man
One Attack Per Melee
Hit Point: 12, S.D.C.: J2
Attributes vary widely from person to person . Roll 306 for each; 16, 17, or 18 gets the bonus roll and abilities. The most typical man probably has a P.S. of l30r 14 and a high school or one year of college level of education. A hand to hand combat skill will increase the number of attacks per melee to two at first level and higher as designated by the hand to hand skill.

Which indicates that the base from HTH overlaps the base from just being a person, for civilians, anyway.
I'm guessing that HU1 was the first Palladium game where they included the "2 attacks at first level" line in the text of the HTH skills?

I'm still looking through the book.

[say652]

and remember the attack bonuses and # of attacks are cumulative from robot combat basic and robot combat elite. yea a skilled power armor pilot has more attacks than a juicer!!!!!

[flatline]

and remember the attack bonuses and # of attacks are cumulative from robot combat basic and robot combat elite. yea a skilled power armor pilot has more attacks than a juicer!!!!!

I agree that this is canon, but I maintain that it is a mistake to allow the character to simultaneously apply bonuses from both hand to hand and robot combat training. You should only apply the combat skill that is appropriate to the moment.

--flatline

[say652]

and remember the attack bonuses and # of attacks are cumulative from robot combat basic and robot combat elite. yea a skilled power armor pilot has more attacks than a juicer!!!!!

I agree that this is canon, but I maintain that it is a mistake to allow the character to simultaneously apply bonuses from both hand to hand and robot combat training. You should only apply the combat skill that is appropriate to the moment.

--flatline

i say thee HA! add it together. and characters from any where else but H.U.can learn more than one hand to hand fighting style, and that IS cumulative also. see super powers are NOT munchikin i mean learn the rules and you can cheat like all hell. my Vagabond is a hand to hand combat instructor with an aberent alignment and knows all fighting styles in the origanal rifts corebook. yea autododge a +17 to strike juicehead! i feel no need to limit anything in this game. after all as an sdc human once that armor is gone you are as good as dead in a fire fight. sure you can beat a juicer in a fist fight but a single power punch from a borg will kill you. not unbalancing at all.

[Nekira Sudacne]

P. 290 of HU1, though, has this passage:

The Typical Average Man
One Attack Per Melee
Hit Point: 12, S.D.C.: J2
Attributes vary widely from person to person . Roll 306 for each; 16, 17, or 18 gets the bonus roll and abilities. The most typical man probably has a P.S. of l30r 14 and a high school or one year of college level of education. A hand to hand combat skill will increase the number of attacks per melee to two at first level and higher as designated by the hand to hand skill.

Which indicates that the base from HTH overlaps the base from just being a person, for civilians, anyway.
I'm guessing that HU1 was the first Palladium game where they included the "2 attacks at first level" line in the text of the HTH skills?

I'm still looking through the book.

as I said, the two attacks were for heroes, not for everyone. meaning non-heroic NPCs did not receive the two attacks. so the typical average man, not being a hero, would of course not get the extra two attacks.

[The Beast]

Page 127 - Psionic Heros - right hand column, about 2/3 of the way down, under the "Attacks per Melee (Hand to Hand)" heading:

"As with ALL superheroes, psionic characters automatically get two attacks per melee. Additional attacks must be developed through combat skills."

a) I'm really curious why this keeps popping up in the psionics section.
b) To me, "additional attacks must be developed through combat skills" means "as you level up, you get more attacks, if you have combat skills," NOT "You add the base number of attacks listed for the combat skill to another base number of attacks, and start with the total."

A = Because Palladium lays out their rules haphazardly, thus making it difficult for me to come up with a better explanation for why it keeps popping up there.

B = And many people read that as the latter way.

[Killer Cyborg]

B = And many people read that as the latter way.

They do, but when a sentence can be read two different ways legitimately, that sentence isn't proof that one interpretation is true.
So holding it up as proof that the second interpretation is correct, when the first is both just as legitimate AND supported by the rest of the RMB, doesn't work.

[Killer Cyborg]

P. 290 of HU1, though, has this passage:

The Typical Average Man
One Attack Per Melee
Hit Point: 12, S.D.C.: J2
Attributes vary widely from person to person . Roll 306 for each; 16, 17, or 18 gets the bonus roll and abilities. The most typical man probably has a P.S. of l30r 14 and a high school or one year of college level of education. A hand to hand combat skill will increase the number of attacks per melee to two at first level and higher as designated by the hand to hand skill.

Which indicates that the base from HTH overlaps the base from just being a person, for civilians, anyway.
I'm guessing that HU1 was the first Palladium game where they included the "2 attacks at first level" line in the text of the HTH skills?

I'm still looking through the book.

as I said, the two attacks were for heroes, not for everyone. meaning non-heroic NPCs did not receive the two attacks. so the typical average man, not being a hero, would of course not get the extra two attacks.

It's not just that he doesn't start with 2 attacks; it's that the 1 attack that he DOES start with doesn't stack with the HTH skills.
Which is how things work in Rifts- the base attacks you get from HTH skill aren't added to anything, they're just a new base that overlaps any previous lower base.

[Killer Cyborg]

and remember the attack bonuses and # of attacks are cumulative from robot combat basic and robot combat elite. yea a skilled power armor pilot has more attacks than a juicer!!!!!

I agree that this is canon, but I maintain that it is a mistake to allow the character to simultaneously apply bonuses from both hand to hand and robot combat training. You should only apply the combat skill that is appropriate to the moment.

--flatline

i say thee HA! add it together. and characters from any where else but H.U.can learn more than one hand to hand fighting style, and that IS cumulative also. see super powers are NOT munchikin i mean learn the rules and you can cheat like all hell. my Vagabond is a hand to hand combat instructor with an aberent alignment and knows all fighting styles in the origanal rifts corebook. yea autododge a +17 to strike juicehead! i feel no need to limit anything in this game. after all as an sdc human once that armor is gone you are as good as dead in a fire fight. sure you can beat a juicer in a fist fight but a single power punch from a borg will kill you. not unbalancing at all.

For context: is English your native language?

Warning: Please don't comment on the other poster.

[Nekira Sudacne]

P. 290 of HU1, though, has this passage:

The Typical Average Man
One Attack Per Melee
Hit Point: 12, S.D.C.: J2
Attributes vary widely from person to person . Roll 306 for each; 16, 17, or 18 gets the bonus roll and abilities. The most typical man probably has a P.S. of l30r 14 and a high school or one year of college level of education. A hand to hand combat skill will increase the number of attacks per melee to two at first level and higher as designated by the hand to hand skill.

Which indicates that the base from HTH overlaps the base from just being a person, for civilians, anyway.
I'm guessing that HU1 was the first Palladium game where they included the "2 attacks at first level" line in the text of the HTH skills?

I'm still looking through the book.

as I said, the two attacks were for heroes, not for everyone. meaning non-heroic NPCs did not receive the two attacks. so the typical average man, not being a hero, would of course not get the extra two attacks.

It's not just that he doesn't start with 2 attacks; it's that the 1 attack that he DOES start with doesn't stack with the HTH skills.
Which is how things work in Rifts- the base attacks you get from HTH skill aren't added to anything, they're just a new base that overlaps any previous lower base.

in every game you always have 1 attack per melee if you have no HtH skills, and then whatever your HtH says if you do. this is hardly unique to HU. at least it was until RUE expanded the rules for those with no HtH skill with "noncombat actions" per melee and some little advancement.

[kaid]

The statements in the RMB that are along the lines of "all player characters start with two attacks" are based on an assumption that all PCs are going to have HTH combat skills, and that their HTH combat skill is NOT going to be Assassin (as Assassin is reserved for Evil characters, and there is an assumption that PCs won't be Evil).
The references to gaining attacks from HTH combat skills are referring to the fact that characters with HTH skills gained attacks as they leveled up, NOT to stacking the base attacks from the forms to a mythical 2 attacks that "everybody" always gets.

Now, some people usually pop up to claim that the TAFL was intended for PCs only, and that's why NPCs don't have them.
But that still skips over the references to the average PC having only 2 attacks at first level (or 4 attacks if they're robot pilots), and it ignores the sentence from Rifts, p. 37

Actually, from my own previous searching, it's not 'Two attacks for PC's", the psychic combat section was copy-pasted from Heroes Unlimited, and in that game all heroes get 2 free attacks per melee, over and in addition to any combat training. this is not 'for living" or "for PC's", it was "for heroes". a heroic edge in a game about superheroes. and it wasn't just in the psychic combat section, it was elsewhere in the HU book and quite clear on how it works.

then they copied and pasted the psychic combat section, which was just one of many references to it in the HU book, into the Rifts book without noticing it.

That caused all subsequent confusion until the GMG decided to roll with it and add 2 attacks to the HtH skills directly.

Yup this pretty much seems to be the answer it is clearly stated one way in one place in the old RMB and the other way in the next paragraph that was copy and pasted from Heroes unlimited. All my group ever saw was the clear statement underneath the psi combat so that is how we always played and why I thought it was like that from the RMB. Basically the RMB is self contradicting and eventually in the GMG they must have decided enough were playing that way already to just make it official.

[Killer Cyborg]

P. 290 of HU1, though, has this passage:

The Typical Average Man
One Attack Per Melee
Hit Point: 12, S.D.C.: J2
Attributes vary widely from person to person . Roll 306 for each; 16, 17, or 18 gets the bonus roll and abilities. The most typical man probably has a P.S. of l30r 14 and a high school or one year of college level of education. A hand to hand combat skill will increase the number of attacks per melee to two at first level and higher as designated by the hand to hand skill.

Which indicates that the base from HTH overlaps the base from just being a person, for civilians, anyway.
I'm guessing that HU1 was the first Palladium game where they included the "2 attacks at first level" line in the text of the HTH skills?

I'm still looking through the book.

as I said, the two attacks were for heroes, not for everyone. meaning non-heroic NPCs did not receive the two attacks. so the typical average man, not being a hero, would of course not get the extra two attacks.

It's not just that he doesn't start with 2 attacks; it's that the 1 attack that he DOES start with doesn't stack with the HTH skills.
Which is how things work in Rifts- the base attacks you get from HTH skill aren't added to anything, they're just a new base that overlaps any previous lower base.

in every game you always have 1 attack per melee if you have no HtH skills, and then whatever your HtH says if you do. this is hardly unique to HU. at least it was until RUE expanded the rules for those with no HtH skill with "noncombat actions" per melee and some little advancement.

It IS different from heroes starting with a base of two attacks, and adding that base to the base number for the HTH skill.
Which is why I thought it was worth noting.
For civilians in HU1, it works the same basic way that it does for everybody in the RMB; the bases overlap, not stack.
Meanwhile, it seem that they want Heroes/Villains to stack, not overlap.
Different rules for different characters in the same game.

[kaid]

Yup which makes it pretty clear why there was a lot of confusion about it. Still in light of the later updates it looks like the original intent was what was listed in the pyschic combat part of the old RMB.

[Killer Cyborg]

Yup which makes it pretty clear why there was a lot of confusion about it. Still in light of the later updates it looks like the original intent was what was listed in the pyschic combat part of the old RMB.

The original intent was an ambiguous sentence that may or may not conflict with the rest of the, depending on interpretation?

[The Beast]

Yup which makes it pretty clear why there was a lot of confusion about it. Still in light of the later updates it looks like the original intent was what was listed in the pyschic combat part of the old RMB.

The original intent was an ambiguous sentence that may or may not conflict with the rest of the, depending on interpretation?

It's not his fault Palladium can't or won't keep their rules straight.

[DhAkael]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

-ahem-
Better now.

However, the whole "4 attacks (2 for breathing and 2 from skill) as standard for H.t.H. trained OCC's" kinda makes Robot & Power armour troopers using the 1st. edition 'Elite' combat trainings for their respective 1st edition wargear neigh unstoppable juggernaughts with 6 (or more) attacks per melee at level 1.

But hey *shrug*

[kaid]

Hehe the old RMB was inconsistent so it can be argued either way. Clearly a lot of it was copy pasted from various older settings like robotech/heroes unlimited so there are some oddities that occured. That is one nice thing about the RUE at least about stuff like this it is clear cut and also cleared up a few other similar issues.

My group always did the 2 attacks base plus whatever for HTH skills/boxing what not and honestly relooking at the old RMB I see how that happened but following the examples it is easy to argue we were doing it wrong. It was something that needed clarification which happened in the GMG and more solidly in the RUE.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Sorry, wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I had a quick question I was wondering if someone could answer for me.

When did the base +2 attacks get added into the Rifts system, as in, what time? Can anyone point to the specific World Book it took effect at?

The 2 APM for living came from the HU1 rules set [where they are 2 APM for being HEROS], cause that is were the RMB combat rules were copy and pasted from. However, KS and crew forgot to write in the 2 APM for living into the rules set, or forgot to take the "+" signs out of the C&P'ed text.

The 2 APM for living officially came into the Rifts setting with the RGMG, as that is the 1st published book with them detailed into the setting's combat rules.

In other words....
The RGMG is where they explicitly came into the combat rules, even thou they were implicitly/hinted at in previous books NPC's.

[say652]

and remember the attack bonuses and # of attacks are cumulative from robot combat basic and robot combat elite. yea a skilled power armor pilot has more attacks than a juicer!!!!!

I agree that this is canon, but I maintain that it is a mistake to allow the character to simultaneously apply bonuses from both hand to hand and robot combat training. You should only apply the combat skill that is appropriate to the moment.

--flatline

i say thee HA! add it together. and characters from any where else but H.U.can learn more than one hand to hand fighting style, and that IS cumulative also. see super powers are NOT munchikin i mean learn the rules and you can cheat like all hell. my Vagabond is a hand to hand combat instructor with an aberent alignment and knows all fighting styles in the origanal rifts corebook. yea autododge a +17 to strike juicehead! i feel no need to limit anything in this game. after all as an sdc human once that armor is gone you are as good as dead in a fire fight. sure you can beat a juicer in a fist fight but a single power punch from a borg will kill you. not unbalancing at all.

For context: is English your native language?

yuppers and i know what a girl smells like, do you???????????

Warning: Please don't comment on the other poster.

[Killer Cyborg]

and remember the attack bonuses and # of attacks are cumulative from robot combat basic and robot combat elite. yea a skilled power armor pilot has more attacks than a juicer!!!!!

I agree that this is canon, but I maintain that it is a mistake to allow the character to simultaneously apply bonuses from both hand to hand and robot combat training. You should only apply the combat skill that is appropriate to the moment.

--flatline

i say thee HA! add it together. and characters from any where else but H.U.can learn more than one hand to hand fighting style, and that IS cumulative also. see super powers are NOT munchikin i mean learn the rules and you can cheat like all hell. my Vagabond is a hand to hand combat instructor with an aberent alignment and knows all fighting styles in the origanal rifts corebook. yea autododge a +17 to strike juicehead! i feel no need to limit anything in this game. after all as an sdc human once that armor is gone you are as good as dead in a fire fight. sure you can beat a juicer in a fist fight but a single power punch from a borg will kill you. not unbalancing at all.

For context: is English your native language?

yuppers and i know what a girl smells like, do you???????????

See, it's stuff like THAT that made me wonder.

[Athos]

Sorry, wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I had a quick question I was wondering if someone could answere for me.

When did the base +2 attacks get added into the Rifts system, as in, what time? Can anyone point to the specific World Book it took effect at?

Sometime around Atlantis.

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

See! That's how I had always played it. Like I said earlier, at some point the descriptions for HtH skills were changed so that L1 included 2 apm. So if you have 2 then take training that grants 2 you have 4. If you're not supposed to GAIN the 2 apm on top of your 2 apm for living..they shouldn't be written in at level 1.

[Blue_Lion]

Well technicaly if you had hand to hand you basic advanced or matrail arts you always had 4 attacks. Just that way of writing was simplifed. When the rifts Main book came out it was 2 attacks for beeing alive then you got 2 from some hand to hand. The changed the way it was written to reduce misunderstandings by rolling in the 2 for beeing alive into the hand to hand skill such as 4 attacks with martial arts 2+2 or 3 for assasin 2+1 at level 1.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Sorry, wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I had a quick question I was wondering if someone could answere for me.

When did the base +2 attacks get added into the Rifts system, as in, what time? Can anyone point to the specific World Book it took effect at?

Sometime around Atlantis.

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Hmm.. given the way that reads...

Im not sure i can go with KC's assertion that it was a cut and pasted remnant from HU - the text is actually changed to reflect Rifts. (Supernatural creatures, etc - stuff not mentioned in the HU:R text). Let me check BtS1 and see if it may be lifted from there.

edit: Yep, it is cut-and-pasted (well, re-used and wax-pressed) from BtS 1, directly. As this is the only referrence to the "All PCs get 2 attacks + H2H skills" in the RMB, i can go along with the "editing mistake" because they just grabbed the blocking from BtS1 and dropped it in unchanged.

further edit:

As HU:R and BtS1 both came after Robotech and before Rifts (pretty sure BtS 1 was before Rifts... have to check) and both of those systems include the "2 attacks for PCs/Heroes" - it is also reasonable to assume that anyone coming to Rifts would assume that since Palladium's system is supposed to be universal and the skill blocking in all the books is identical ('cut and pasted') that all PCs should get the 2 attacks. I know we certain did the first time we cracked open Rifts. It wasnt until later we noticed that most of the stats for NPCs didnt reflect it and then thought to look in the rulebook.

[Blue_Lion]

Sorry, wasn't sure where the best place to put this was, but I had a quick question I was wondering if someone could answere for me.

When did the base +2 attacks get added into the Rifts system, as in, what time? Can anyone point to the specific World Book it took effect at?

Sometime around Atlantis.

Way wrong... It had nothing to do with Atlantis.

In the RMB, page 37 it states

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two
attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are
gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing. A typical non-player
character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat
and/or boxing skill additions. Supernatural creature's number of attacks
vary with each individual type, usually two to six attacks per
melee. The rules for mixing or substituting psychic attacks still apply."

So for PCs it has in theory, always been +2 attacks.

I think where the confusion came in, is most of the NPCs, in the
early books anyways, were not given the PC +2 attacks.

Anyways, it looks like it was always there...

Hmm.. given the way that reads...

Im not sure i can go with KC's assertion that it was a cut and pasted remnant from HU - the text is actually changed to reflect Rifts. (Supernatural creatures, etc - stuff not mentioned in the HU:R text). Let me check BtS1 and see if it may be lifted from there.

edit: Yep, it is cut-and-pasted (well, re-used and wax-pressed) from BtS 1, directly. As this is the only referrence to the "All PCs get 2 attacks + H2H skills" in the RMB, i can go along with the "editing mistake" because they just grabbed the blocking from BtS1 and dropped it in unchanged.

further edit:

As HU:R and BtS1 both came after Robotech and before Rifts (pretty sure BtS 1 was before Rifts... have to check) and both of those systems include the "2 attacks for PCs/Heroes" - it is also reasonable to assume that anyone coming to Rifts would assume that since Palladium's system is supposed to be universal and the skill blocking in all the books is identical ('cut and pasted') that all PCs should get the 2 attacks. I know we certain did the first time we cracked open Rifts. It wasnt until later we noticed that most of the stats for NPCs didnt reflect it and then thought to look in the rulebook.

Well depending on if you have the old rule book or the new one it they where rolled into the hand to hand skill. In PF and HU the hand to hand basic threw martial arts gave you 2 plus the two for beeing alive as did the rifts main book. Then in RUE the same skills have 4 because they rolled the two for beeing alive in, for simplicty and to deal with some SN with specific fighting styles, this also is the system in ninas and super spies with the martal arts usaly starting with 3-4 attacks.