Increasing magic attacks per round?

[Killer Cyborg]

5. Armor of Ithan or Invincible Armor or whatever + Permanence Ward.

Ok assuming you have access to a diabolist that can/will do that and the mage is willing to have it sewn on to his/her skin (which is the only way a permanence ward can be afixed to a being) how as a GM would you work this?... Use AoI as the spell.

Does it pop back up immediatly, at full strenght, after it's MDC is depleated?

Nope.

Does it regenerate at a preset pace back to its full potential?

Nope.

Does it stay unuseable for a certain time after its depleated but then once the time has passed can be reactivated at full? How long is the wait?

Or would you do something else?

It would just be a normal AoI spell with an unlimited duration.
Once the MDC is gone, you're stuck with a Permance ward sewn into your flesh, targeting nothing.

At which point you could always cut the ward out of your flesh, and sew another one in, targeting a new spell.

I never said that it was a good alternative.

EDIT and though "be an MDC creature" covers it I guess, I would throw in Biowizardy MDC transformation as an option (very expensive option but an option none the less)

Yup. That was one of the options that I was thinking about.

[Thinyser]

5. Armor of Ithan or Invincible Armor or whatever + Permanence Ward.

Ok assuming you have access to a diabolist that can/will do that and the mage is willing to have it sewn on to his/her skin (which is the only way a permanence ward can be afixed to a being) how as a GM would you work this?... Use AoI as the spell.

Does it pop back up immediatly, at full strenght, after it's MDC is depleated?

Nope.

Does it regenerate at a preset pace back to its full potential?

Nope.

Does it stay unuseable for a certain time after its depleated but then once the time has passed can be reactivated at full? How long is the wait?

Or would you do something else?

It would just be a normal AoI spell with an unlimited duration.
Once the MDC is gone, you're stuck with a Permance ward sewn into your flesh, targeting nothing.

At which point you could always cut the ward out of your flesh, and sew another one in, targeting a new spell.

I never said that it was a good alternative.

Not only is it not good... it sucks! Nobody in their right mind would pay likely millions of credits to have that ward created (dragon/demon/god bones aint cheap) and sewed onto a visible part of their body, for what? a max of 150 MDC that can never be regenerated, replaced, or have the rune reactivated after it is depleated. and then later have it surgically removed with the possiblity of death (it causes quite a bit of damage to remove them).

At the least I would have the diabolist be able to reactivte the ward himself for additional PPE (and additional payment) after it was depleated... then it would be a cheaper and less effective altrenitive to the 100 million credit biowiz MDC conversion

[DocS]

Look at the spells... ALL Of them.

The 'self enhancement spells' all require initiative. A powered armor, makes you strong all day, ''Giant Spell", makes you strong... for a limited time..... when you need it... provided you have initive to cast it. All the self enhancement and armor spells have this problem. The CS commando, strong, fast, effective, and can 'power up' in a way (by putting on armor and gear which, thanks to his nice skill choices) that has a very long duration.

Don't say "but I don't need extraneous items"... Magic is extraneous, which is why the CS can test for it, and put a bullet in your head when you walk up to them. I wish this was a rare ability, but Psi Stalkers are all over the USA, there are roving bands! Animals sense it too. It's not that you're hoping they don't have a psi stalker, you're hoping that they don't have a well-trained Dog!.

The tech guy can take his power armor off, put it in a box, and cruise around Iron HEart for a week without a problem. Mr Mage is screwed, unless he knows ahead of time when dogboys will look at him and has the spell 'transferral', then it just becomes majorly difficult (the spell doesn't last that long). Magic is like power armor, except it can't be removed, which is why the CS kills mages rather than imprisoning them. And it's why the CS can detect mages whether you cast a spell or not.

yeah, 'but if they don't know about mages', sorry guys, in Rifts.. everyone knows about mages. And most people have access to dogs. Many people check for mages, and kill them. You have the largest propaganda machine in North America broadcasting how evil they are and how to find and kill them. The power armor pilot can take off his armor and be a 'scout' in areas that forbid power armor, MR magic gets near Chi Town, or near Cooter 'n his trained cocker spaniel, and the gig is up.

They go as far as to say, Dogs sense magic and mages... I'm not exaggerating about Cooter.

Magic net.... they need a 16.... on a DODGE (if it was a magic save, then itwould be as effective as you say). That's right, the opponent needs a 16 against what is, most likely, his highest bonus..... at least bonuses against magic are kinda hard to get.... bonuses to dodge? If the guy doesn't have at least a +5, he's either too low level, sick, slow, or lazy to really be a problem)

This spell is almost as useful as it should be.... but not quite (now a Dodge roll vs the caster, with a caster gaining +2 per level... that *would* be someting)

Along with Fear and Carpet of adhesion, two of the most powerful spells, as far as I can tell, the only two spells in the books worth using, as evidenced by the fact that *everyone* mentions the same three spells. And these are boring spells too.

Out of a zillion spells, the argument goes down to the same three spells. Yeah, they work. And if yu want a useful mage, you wear armor, use rifles, and only use these three spells (the rest of them are, as a group, hogwash). The same three spells. Over a hundred spells, and there are three useful ones... but don't try to do much else. There are some others that are useful (magic portal), but look at all of them, and the spells are fields upon fields of uselessness with rare snippets of use, which are already cliche because everyone uses the same, small, list.

Now lets compare those with some of the most useless spells in the game, but shouldn't be...

Constrain being. It's a magic spell, designed to ensnare magical beings... Works.... six times out of ten providing that the supernatural creature has no bonus Vs magic. Banishment, Control.enslave entitiy....

You know, spells that mages are supposed to be *good* at?

Any offensive spell past level 6.... either do poor damage (Call lightning), or have that 'saving throw... standard' thing, but cost a bunch! This is the only game in the world where a level nine spell, cast on a Kobold, only works, six times out of ten. (Phobia, Mute, Ward), how many times can you shovel out 40 PPE for a spell? It's not like Mute is 'Instant Death', for 50 PPE, you can shut someone up..... Unless they can roll a 12 (plus PE bonus).

Just for fun, go through the book, and put a pencil mark by every spell that

1) you'd almost never cast because it costs too much PPE (yes I know Teleport:superior is nice.... now how often can you bank on access to 600 PPE).

2) You'd cast, but requires a 'standard saving throw', so it undependable, and it takes 20 PPE or more, so you probably don't have the PPE to keep trying (Agony! What a great spell! Expensive AND undependable).

Banishment... I wish Shifters were good at it, you'd think they would be.... but no. If it's big enough that you're willing to spend the 65 PPE, then it's probably big enough to have a bonus Vs magic and it's dangerous enough that you don't want to wait around to do a big ritual... sucks to be you. There is almost no good use for this spell. Find it, kill it, trying to banish it aint gonna do you much good.

3) It costs a lot of PPE, but doesn't do a whole lot (Like the shadow beast. what are you *really* getting, for 140 PPE, you get, the weakest MDC creature reported in any of the books! The only creature that can be killed by a lucky shot with a vibro knife.. check that... luck's not needed, roll '3' MD, and it's dead). wear lightest armor, Drop smallest MD grenade at feet, do 3MD to whole room, you live, beast dies. Dogs... nice, I've used them.... but you use up a huge portion of your PPE. Why is this so expensive? Are dogs that powerful?

4) Does someting comparable to a technological item (armor, strength, speed, Radio communication), but requires initiative to cast whereas Mr Tech has the ability all the time. The mage runs fast when he thinks he'll need it, the juicer runs fast all the time. The mage is strong when he has a mind to be, the juicer is strong all the time. Mr mage spends PPE on the Calling spell, Mr Radio, gets it free provided everyone gets one. Not only that... but calling is a pretty big PPE cost for something a guy with a radio can do at will. It's ok.... but a radio will handle 95% of your Calling needs.

These could be fixed by increasing the duration ('Swim as the fish should last DAYS', if it's supposed to compete with SCUBA gear), or decreasing the cost (one balance I know of one game doing, any spell less than 10 PPE was 'free', and it still didn't unbalance things)

5) Any spell that requires a custom unusual situation. For example, I've seen gaming story after gaming story, and never heard of a PC dying of starvation. Sustain, nice idea for a spell, but though you could argue that mages 'need' it, food shortage is not a major thing for most PC's. Your mage has 'sustain', you need to fabricate situations for it because I've seen party after party, and food's not that big of a deal.

Yeah, magic net doesn't get a mark, but if you start marking the spells, you have wide swaths of largely useless or redundant abilities where you take your spells and sit and wait like Aquaman "YEah, one day The villains will strike the Shipyard, and then my water spells will be useful!".

[Killer Cyborg]

Look at the spells... ALL Of them.

The 'self enhancement spells' all require initiative. A powered armor, makes you strong all day, ''Giant Spell", makes you strong... for a limited time..... when you need it... provided you have initive to cast it. All the self enhancement and armor spells have this problem. The CS commando, strong, fast, effective, and can 'power up' in a way (by putting on armor and gear which, thanks to his nice skill choices) that has a very long duration.

So?

Don't say "but I don't need extraneous items"... Magic is extraneous, which is why the CS can test for it, and put a bullet in your head when you walk up to them. I wish this was a rare ability, but Psi Stalkers are all over the USA, there are roving bands! Animals sense it too. It's not that you're hoping they don't have a psi stalker, you're hoping that they don't have a well-trained Dog!

What's the dog going to do?

The tech guy can take his power armor off, put it in a box, and cruise around Iron HEart for a week without a problem. Mr Mage is screwed, unless he knows ahead of time when dogboys will look at him and has the spell 'transferral', then it just becomes majorly difficult (the spell doesn't last that long). Magic is like power armor, except it can't be removed, which is why the CS kills mages rather than imprisoning them. And it's why the CS can detect mages whether you cast a spell or not.

That's why mages generally don't pick Coalition Territory to vacation in.
They usually kick back in magic-friendly communities.

yeah, 'but if they don't know about mages', sorry guys, in Rifts.. everyone knows about mages. And most people have access to dogs. Many people check for mages, and kill them. You have the largest propaganda machine in North America broadcasting how evil they are and how to find and kill them. The power armor pilot can take off his armor and be a 'scout' in areas that forbid power armor, MR magic gets near Chi Town, or near Cooter 'n his trained cocker spaniel, and the gig is up.

So?

Magic net.... they need a 16.... on a DODGE (if it was a magic save, then itwould be as effective as you say). That's right, the opponent needs a 16 against what is, most likely, his highest bonus..... at least bonuses against magic are kinda hard to get.... bonuses to dodge? If the guy doesn't have at least a +5, he's either too low level, sick, slow, or lazy to really be a problem)

Rifts, p. 256
Typical CS Grunt: +1 dodge
Typical SAMAS: +4 dodge
Typical High-Tech Bandit: +0 to dodge.

And even if they do dodge successfully, they still lose an attack (unless they have auto-dodge for some reason).

But let's say that the person does have a +5 to dodge.
That means that the spell has a 55% chance of working.
Which is to say that no matter how much MDC the target has, the mage has a 55% chance of stopping the target cold. Because once you're in the net, you're screwed.
And if the target can't dodge, say they've been hit by CoA, or you sneak up behind them, etc, then there's a 100% chance of dropping him no matter how much MDC he has.

Along with Fear and Carpet of adhesion, two of the most powerful spells, as far as I can tell, the only two spells in the books worth using, as evidenced by the fact that *everyone* mentions the same three spells. And these are boring spells too.

I've never really bothered with Fear.
But CoA is powerful.

The fact that they're popular doesn't mean that other spells aren't worth using, though.

Out of a zillion spells, the argument goes down to the same three spells. Yeah, they work. And if yu want a useful mage, you wear armor, use rifles, and only use these three spells (the rest of them are, as a group, hogwash). The same three spells. Over a hundred spells, and there are three useful ones... but don't try to do much else. There are some others that are useful (magic portal), but look at all of them, and the spells are fields upon fields of uselessness with rare snippets of use, which are already cliche because everyone uses the same, small, list.

Sure, if the only thing you ever do in your games is straight-up combat.
In which case, go play a video game or something.

But if you ever have adventures, all sorts of spells are useful.

Now lets compare those with some of the most useless spells in the game, but shouldn't be...

Constrain being. It's a magic spell, designed to ensnare magical beings... Works.... six times out of ten providing that the supernatural creature has no bonus Vs magic. [/quote]

Again, that's a 60% chance of stopping a powerful supernatural being cold. What's the problem?
You're complaining because a mage doesn't have a 100% chance of instant victory over every foe, every time?
At first level?
Get over it.

Banishment, Control.enslave entitiy....

What about them?

You know, spells that mages are supposed to be *good* at?

Any offensive spell past level 6.... either do poor damage (Call lightning), or have that 'saving throw... standard' thing, but cost a bunch! This is the only game in the world where a level nine spell, cast on a Kobold, only works, six times out of ten. (Phobia, Mute, Ward), how many times can you shovel out 40 PPE for a spell? It's not like Mute is 'Instant Death', for 50 PPE, you can shut someone up..... Unless they can roll a 12 (plus PE bonus).

If the target is a spell-caster, Mute can screw them over pretty bad.

Just for fun, go through the book, and put a pencil mark by every spell that

1) you'd almost never cast because it costs too much PPE (yes I know Teleport:superior is nice.... now how often can you bank on access to 600 PPE).

Scrolls, dude.
And forgive me if I'm not shocked that 15th level spells aren't used frequently.

2) You'd cast, but requires a 'standard saving throw', so it undependable, and it takes 20 PPE or more, so you probably don't have the PPE to keep trying (Agony! What a great spell! Expensive AND undependable).

It sucks when the target makes his save, but when he doesn't then you've often won the battle right there. Either by straight-out incapaciting the enemy, or by weaking it enough for your friends to kill it off.

Banishment... I wish Shifters were good at it, you'd think they would be.... but no. If it's big enough that you're willing to spend the 65 PPE, then it's probably big enough to have a bonus Vs magic and it's dangerous enough that you don't want to wait around to do a big ritual... sucks to be you. There is almost no good use for this spell. Find it, kill it, trying to banish it aint gonna do you much good.

If you can't kill it, then Banishment gives you a shot at getting rid of it.

3) It costs a lot of PPE, but doesn't do a whole lot (Like the shadow beast. what are you *really* getting, for 140 PPE, you get, the weakest MDC creature reported in any of the books! The only creature that can be killed by a lucky shot with a vibro knife.. check that... luck's not needed, roll '3' MD, and it's dead). wear lightest armor, Drop smallest MD grenade at feet, do 3MD to whole room, you live, beast dies.

Again, I can only assume that your only role-playing experiences are direct combat. Shadow Beasts are great assassins, even when you use the original SDC stats. They don't need to be tough to sneak in at night and slit throats.

Dogs... nice, I've used them.... but you use up a huge portion of your PPE. Why is this so expensive? Are dogs that powerful?

Well, they do MD to evil supernatural creatures.
But yeah, I'll agree that that one is overpriced.
Of course, it's another one that you're not likely to do in the middle of combat.
(Unless you build it into a TW Poodle Gun or something)

4) Does someting comparable to a technological item (armor, strength, speed, Radio communication), but requires initiative to cast whereas Mr Tech has the ability all the time. The mage runs fast when he thinks he'll need it, the juicer runs fast all the time. The mage is strong when he has a mind to be, the juicer is strong all the time. Mr mage spends PPE on the Calling spell, Mr Radio, gets it free provided everyone gets one. Not only that... but calling is a pretty big PPE cost for something a guy with a radio can do at will. It's ok.... but a radio will handle 95% of your Calling needs.

Once again you're acting under the insane notion that magic and technology are an either/or thing.
They're not.
Radios are good for some things, magic pigeons are good for other things.

These could be fixed by increasing the duration ('Swim as the fish should last DAYS', if it's supposed to compete with SCUBA gear), or decreasing the cost (one balance I know of one game doing, any spell less than 10 PPE was 'free', and it still didn't unbalance things)

It's not supposed to compete with scuba gear.
It's supposed to allow a mage to be versatile without packing a ton of gear with him. A mage can walk around naked and still be able to fly, breathe underwater, see invisible, put on MDC armor if he needs it, inflict mega-damage (in melee or ranged), turn invisible, move in perfect silence, and dozens of other tricks.
Without trying to lug around scuba gear, a jet pack, armor, weapons, special optic gear (which still doesn't work as well as the spell), Naruni Cameoflage armor, and whatever other crap would be needed.
But if he wants to, then he CAN carry as much of that crap as he wants.
Because he can use technology just as well as anybody else, PLUS he has magic.

5) Any spell that requires a custom unusual situation. For example, I've seen gaming story after gaming story, and never heard of a PC dying of starvation. Sustain, nice idea for a spell, but though you could argue that mages 'need' it, food shortage is not a major thing for most PC's. Your mage has 'sustain', you need to fabricate situations for it because I've seen party after party, and food's not that big of a deal.

We've never had people starve to death, but only because we had spells like Sustain and Create Bread and Milk.
I'm kind of surprised that you've never encountered that sort of situation.
Then again, it rarely happens in straight-up combat... so maybe I'm not surprised that you haven't seen it.

Yeah, magic net doesn't get a mark, but if you start marking the spells, you have wide swaths of largely useless or redundant abilities where you take your spells and sit and wait like Aquaman "YEah, one day The villains will strike the Shipyard, and then my water spells will be useful!".

Maybe in your campaigns.
Not in mine.
Most spells in the book get used, if the player has them.

[DocS]

I guess all the magic vs tech arguments go in comparing Timmy and Gazban.

Timmy is a Wilderness Scout with a Dog, Lassie.

Gazban, is the 'Dog Summoner',

Gazban down upon Timmy's silly 'I don't need magic for a dog', Gazban SUMMONS his dogs when he needs them! And so Timmy and Gazban travel together, endlessly debating whether simply 'having a dog' is more or less useful than summoning a dog when you need one (or 1d4 +1 per level).

"Ah Timmy" Gazban says " Summoning Dogs is just fine, I don't need to bother with actually 'Having' a Dog. Any ways, I'm a spellcaster, my wilderness abilities are limited, I could spend valuable skill points on animal skills which I wont be good at (Oh, I wish I got many skills and good skill bonuses, but alas, I'm a mage), or, I could use this nice ninth level pentacle spell and 50 PPE, I can have dogs, more than one! I can control the dogs! And your dog when I want!"

Timmy pauses, "really? try to control my Dog".

Gazban begins to draw the pentacle, he beats Timmy's initiative, so on his first attack he begins the spell.

Timmy then tackles gazban, breaking the pentacle and disrupting the spell

"Not fair!" Says Gazban, "You have to give me the chance to cast the spell!"

"Oh no", says Timmy, if you think your 'Dogwelding' is superior to mine, we do this, head to head. My dog can run the range of the spell (200 feet), in less than the 7.5 seconds it will take for you to cast the pentacle. You can't dodge, because that would break the pentacle and disrupt the spell, so reallty, unless the dogs around you don't mind you controlling them, you've a problem. So yes, you can control dogs, provided they don't mind you casting the spell.

"Well Timmy, lets see about that.." Gazban begins to cast the spell again, Lassie Howls, runs, and hides

"Hey!" Says gazban. "I can't see lassie, I can't control him if I can't see him!"

"Gazban, All dogsl sense magic. Horses too, I might add. I don't need to 'train' the dog to tell me you're a magic user, he can smell it, he doesn't like it, and it's why the CS uses dogs as a base for their 'sensing mutants' abilities. All I need to know my dog well enough to tell when he smells you as a spellcaster, and I know you're a mage. If you try to cast a spell or have any magic effect/enchantment/armor/technowizard device, my dog smells that too, dislikes it, then does something dramatic like howl and hide. So, I'm not going to let you do something magic to my dog, my dog is going to not let you do something magic to it, perhaps this magic thing isn't as 'stealth' as you keep telling me. If you have a laser pistol concealed up your but, there would be no problem, but Lassie can smell the magic wand, and he does it better than you do since his magic sensing is always on. "

"Well why would you be so paranoid about me being a spellcaster?"

"Gazban, I've seen enough CS pamphlets to know that you may be dangerous and should at least be treated like someone who is permanently armed and dangerous. Since dogs are plentiful, as are horses, it makes sense for me to use them not only for their normal purposes, but also to tell me if you're a magic mombo man. Don't worry, I wont turn you in to the nearest CS patrol (they are the biggest power in North America and always looking for a mage to snuff). But I am definitely interested if you're a mage."

So Timmy and Gazban decide not to turn this into a head to head fight. Instead they adventure, and keep looking for ways to demonstrate who has the more useful dogwileding abilities.

A Broodkil attacks! Lassie hears the beast, barks, and wakes them up. They fight the beast with technology and magic. But first, Gazban summons 4 dogs to help with the battle! The broodkil kills Gazban's dogs with a swipe while Lassie hides in the bushes. They defeat the broodkil"

"Aha!" Says Gazban, see how I had more dogs than you! and my dogs are replacable and yours isn't!"

"Gazban! Why are you being so hack and slash? Dogs can't stand against a Broodkil, Xiticix, Gwylack, or just about anything out here! By the time the combat happens, the dog's not much use!"

"But you had a dog.... I needed to get a dog too, to show head to head dogwielding"

"yeah Gazban, didn't you summon some dogs to watch us as we slept? Where did those dogs go?"

"The spell ran out and so...."

"You woke up lonely and dogless... and all our enemies have had to do was wait a couple hours for the spell to run out and then our sentry goes away. Are you telling me that you can't have your dogs be useful unless you know at least 7.5 seconds in advance that you're going to need a dog!?"

Timmy and GAzban rest, and then travel, Lassie does her job well. Alerting of normal dangers with her ears and nose. She howls and freaks out at the supernatural dangers, only staying with Timmy due to her loyalty, but promptly hiding and leaving Timmy and Gazban to deal with the danger. Gazban, to be sporting, begins every encounter with summoning dogs (in order to match Timmy's dog coverage). The 50 PPE is expensive, and the duration of the spell limited, but gazban is a sport, but just can't keep up, At least four hours of Gazbans day is 'lonely and dogless' while Timmy and Lassie are together 24/7!

"Well, I don't have to feed my dogs" Gazban says

"I know," Says Timmy, "but feeding dogs isn't so hard. Dogs can sometimes feed themselves! If I don't have enough resources to feed my dog, then I'm starving myself, at which point, I'm eating the dog. Heck, I been on Rifts Earth for years, never starved. Been shot at, mind controlled, duplicated, rocketed into space, stunned, deputized, and Death Himself tried to drain my soul once (However I'm a hardy guy, only works 6 times out of ten on guys tough as me, I guess I'm just one of the lucky four), but starvin's not one of my worries. Wilderness scout, you know. Maybe I'll have to eat the dog, one day, then, when I get to the next town, I'll get another one. Dags are cheap! Rats are even cheaper! Never been to a place where I couldn't get a rat. Don't think I'd ever want to go to one neither."

One day, they are tracking someone, and Timmy sends Lassie to follow their quarry. Gazban summons his dogs, and sends them out. Gazban can cover more territory.

"Well would you look at that!" Timmy says

"Aha! See!? See!?" Gasban hoots, "I'm the superior dogwileder"

"yep, you got me here. When you know what's out there, what's going to happen, when it's going to happen, and no one is really interested in stopping you.... your dogs do out-do my one".

One day, Gazban sees Timmy putting armor on Lassie, "See?" Timmy says, "This here is an MDC dog, improved dog! now if one of them ARCHIE bots hits him, he wont die.".

"I can make an MDC dog too" says Gazban, at which point he draws the pentacle, summons the dogs, and casts 'Armor of Ithan', "Aha!"

Timmy watches, and waits, minutes later, the armor spell wears off, Gazban re-casts it... which then wears off, this is repeated until Gazban runs out of energy, at which point Timmy can't resist the gibe "I dunno, I still got my MDC dog. That armor spell sure would be handy if we knew exactly where and when we'd need it, but if we had to wait ten or 20 minutes for something to happen, sure looks like that would get expensive in a jiff"

"But if your dog dies, you'll have to replace him"

"True, but dogs is cheap, and if I've no access to armor, I'm already dead, and so is you, unless you expect dangers to give you 'a 3 second heads up' so you can cast your spell. Anyways, the armor may make the dog harder to replace, but it also makes it less likely I'll ever need to. He's now as tough as 100 dogs, more importantly, he'll stay that way even if no one attacks.

So on, they travel, it is quiet, a disaster happens, Lassie falls into a well! "Oh no!" says Timmy
"Poor girl!" says Gazban

So they use Gazban''s dogs as sentries for the nights and travel largely dog-less during the day because Gazban has to conserve PPE and 50 PPE a pop is hard, AND Gazban can't go anywhere while the spell is active (would break the pentacle), so they can only have dogs when not moving.

"Timmy, if you want me to be able to do much else other than summon dogs...", Gazban proposes, "then you will replace your dog at the next town. I will even chip in half, it will be worth it to me to have the PPE available again, running with a spell active for long periods of time really drains me! "

But Timmy does grant Gazban that one idea, as a band-aid in between dogless times, Gasban's spell does solve the problem, albeit in an expensive and inefficient manner. However, once the next Lassie can be obtained, then it's back to lassie.

Soon Timmy and Gazban part ways, they agree to disagree on the dogs. One day, Timmy sees Gazban hiding in some bushes

"Timmy! Help!" Says Gazban, "I was walking in the woods, and I saw a man cry for help. I went to help him, and it turned out to be a trap! There were other men hidden in the trees. They came out, wanting to kill me, I used time slip to escape but I think they're still chasing me! They've been tracking me for two days, and whenever I summon the dogs to act as sentries, the birds go crazy, fly away, and this shows the trackers where I am!"

So Timmy uses his counter-tracking skill (which is much much higher than Gazban can hope to have) to lead the people away.

"betcha wish you had owned a normal dog", Timmy says to Gazban, "Too bad though, under normal circumstances, you can't, Dogs hate magic."

[Killer Cyborg]

Timmy pauses, "really? try to control my Dog".

Gazban begins to draw the pentacle, he beats Timmy's initiative, so on his first attack he begins the spell.

Timmy then tackles gazban, breaking the pentacle and disrupting the spell

"Not fair!" Says Gazban, "You have to give me the chance to cast the spell!"

"Oh no", says Timmy, if you think your 'Dogwelding' is superior to mine, we do this, head to head. My dog can run the range of the spell (200 feet), in less than the 7.5 seconds it will take for you to cast the pentacle. You can't dodge, because that would break the pentacle and disrupt the spell, so reallty, unless the dogs around you don't mind you controlling them, you've a problem. So yes, you can control dogs, provided they don't mind you casting the spell.

Once again, straight-up combat.
Summon & Control Canines is a ritual. It would take several minutes to draw the circle. It's not something you roll initiative for.

"Well Timmy, lets see about that.." Gazban begins to cast the spell again, Lassie Howls, runs, and hides

"Hey!" Says gazban. "I can't see lassie, I can't control him if I can't see him!"

You do realize that the spell also SUMMONS dogs, don't you?

If you're trying to control a lone dog, in combat, just Dominate it.

"Well why would you be so paranoid about me being a spellcaster?"

"Gazban, I've seen enough CS pamphlets to know that you may be dangerous and should at least be treated like someone who is permanently armed and dangerous.

1. I guess both those characters are hanging out in CS territory, or very close to it, instead of one of the many places in North America where people have barely heard of the CS.
2. Since the CS discourages literacy, I doubt that they have pamphlets for anything.

"betcha wish you had owned a normal dog", Timmy says to Gazban, "Too bad though, under normal circumstances, you can't, Dogs hate magic."

Actually, he CAN own a normal dog.
The dog just wouldn't like it when the mage cast spells.
Some dogs don't like it when their owner plays the piano.
They run off to the other room for a bit, then they come back.
No biggie.

Heck, if the dog is a Familiar, then I tend to think it wouldn't mind the magic at all.

[The Beast]

The Two Attacks For Living came in sometime around the time Atlantis was released.

My first group got our RMB around the 4th printing, but before Atlantis was available in our area (around '90 to '91). All of our copies of Atlantis were 1st printing but none of us noticed the rule until after Triax was released. Once I found the rule, I had the others check their book and everyone had it. I can't remember if anyone had to get another copy except for the one who sold to me his copy of the RMB prior to this. I know before Rifts was released we were playing Robotech and HU without the 2 APR and carried it over to Rifts once we started playing it, so if any of us did have a prior printing.....

Oh well, the point is moot as I don't have my Rifts books with me know anyway.

[Nekira Sudacne]

The Two Attacks For Living came in sometime around the time Atlantis was released.

Two attacks for living has never been in any palladium book.

Two attacks for being a HERO has been in RMB sinse first printing.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Two Attacks For Living came in sometime around the time Atlantis was released.

Two attacks for living has never been in any palladium book.

Two attacks for being a HERO has been in RMB sinse first printing.

Tell that to Kevin Siembieda.
He disagrees with you.
I know this from:
a) talking to him in person
b) reading CB1 Revised.

[Killer Cyborg]

The Two Attacks For Living came in sometime around the time Atlantis was released.

My first group got our RMB around the 4th printing, but before Atlantis was available in our area (around '90 to '91). All of our copies of Atlantis were 1st printing but none of us noticed the rule until after Triax was released. Once I found the rule, I had the others check their book and everyone had it. I can't remember if anyone had to get another copy except for the one who sold to me his copy of the RMB prior to this. I know before Rifts was released we were playing Robotech and HU without the 2 APR and carried it over to Rifts once we started playing it, so if any of us did have a prior printing.....

Oh well, the point is moot as I don't have my Rifts books with me know anyway.

It was never mentioned in the RMB.
People just misread the rules there.

[dark brandon]

Look at the spells... ALL Of them.

The 'self enhancement spells' all require initiative. A powered armor, makes you strong all day, ''Giant Spell", makes you strong... for a limited time..... when you need it... provided you have initive to cast it. All the self enhancement and armor spells have this problem. The CS commando, strong, fast, effective, and can 'power up' in a way (by putting on armor and gear which, thanks to his nice skill choices) that has a very long duration.

They don't require initiative. They require you to cast it, can you buy yourself 5 seconds? I can. Most can. Unless all combat is "surprise" combat, a mage is sitting fine. Oh, and guess what, he can wear EBA too. And guess what else? He can be just as strong fast and effective as the commando. All he has to do is take the right skills. A few physical skills, hth martial arts WP energy rifle and EBA armor and now the mage is on par with a commando of his level, since the only way to gain bonus to strike with weapons is through WP. Now the mage is just as effective as your commando, and if the mage "wins initiative" hes Commando +.

The tech guy can take his power armor off, put it in a box, and cruise around Iron HEart for a week without a problem. Mr Mage is screwed, unless he knows ahead of time when dogboys will look at him and has the spell 'transferral', then it just becomes majorly difficult (the spell doesn't last that long). Magic is like power armor, except it can't be removed, which is why the CS kills mages rather than imprisoning them. And it's why the CS can detect mages whether you cast a spell or not.

So a mage just drops all his PPE so he's "empty"...now he's the commando without his power armor. Where as the tech guy has to wait a week for his armor, the mage gets a good nights rest and can either drop his PPE or decide if he needs it.

yeah, 'but if they don't know about mages', sorry guys, in Rifts.. everyone knows about mages. And most people have access to dogs. Many people check for mages, and kill them. You have the largest propaganda machine in North America broadcasting how evil they are and how to find and kill them. The power armor pilot can take off his armor and be a 'scout' in areas that forbid power armor, MR magic gets near Chi Town, or near Cooter 'n his trained cocker spaniel, and the gig is up.

Who would say they don't know about mages? Who says most kill them? Unless it's a CS state, most seem either friendly or at least indifferent.

Magic net.... they need a 16.... on a DODGE (if it was a magic save, then itwould be as effective as you say). That's right, the opponent needs a 16 against what is, most likely, his highest bonus..... at least bonuses against magic are kinda hard to get.... bonuses to dodge? If the guy doesn't have at least a +5, he's either too low level, sick, slow, or lazy to really be a problem)

This spell is almost as useful as it should be.... but not quite (now a Dodge roll vs the caster, with a caster gaining +2 per level... that *would* be someting)

Hey, for 7 PPE out of my hundred you had to use an attack action to get out of the way AND if you fail, youre out of combat. PERIOD. If I miss, I do it again. And if you really anger me when you do roll your failed dodge, I walk up to you and kill you with a vibro knife and absorb your doubled PPE to replenish mine...so I can go magic net your friend.

Along with Fear and Carpet of adhesion, two of the most powerful spells, as far as I can tell, the only two spells in the books worth using, as evidenced by the fact that *everyone* mentions the same three spells. And these are boring spells too.

Invisibility, climb, armor of ithan...blinding flash...confusion...befuddle...they are all great spells...low PPE cost, quick to cast...and on average you're gonna succeed hitting an enemie long before the commando can wittle the armor away to kill the person.

Out of a zillion spells, the argument goes down to the same three spells. Yeah, they work. And if yu want a useful mage, you wear armor, use rifles, and only use these three spells (the rest of them are, as a group, hogwash). The same three spells. Over a hundred spells, and there are three useful ones... but don't try to do much else. There are some others that are useful (magic portal), but look at all of them, and the spells are fields upon fields of uselessness with rare snippets of use, which are already cliche because everyone uses the same, small, list.

Not all spells have a constant use. I won't use swim as a fish if I don't have to. Invisibility for example. Most EBA don't have thermals. I can now walk up to you and whisper in your ear Death word, next action cast invisibility and walk away. Dog boys in the group? Fine, I'll fly away. I'll just cast superhuman speed an run away. Shoot at me, i'll deflect it.

Constrain being. It's a magic spell, designed to ensnare magical beings... Works.... six times out of ten providing that the supernatural creature has no bonus Vs magic. Banishment, Control.enslave entitiy....

You know, spells that mages are supposed to be *good* at? [/quote]

And they are. These supernatural beings have...hundreds of MDC. My mage is going to suceed taking him down AND controling him long before your commando ever would.

Any offensive spell past level 6.... either do poor damage (Call lightning), or have that 'saving throw... standard' thing, but cost a bunch! This is the only game in the world where a level nine spell, cast on a Kobold, only works, six times out of ten. (Phobia, Mute, Ward), how many times can you shovel out 40 PPE for a spell? It's not like Mute is 'Instant Death', for 50 PPE, you can shut someone up..... Unless they can roll a 12 (plus PE bonus).

As KC pointed out, mute vs. a mage is hell.

Just for fun, go through the book, and put a pencil mark by every spell that

1) you'd almost never cast because it costs too much PPE (yes I know Teleport:superior is nice.... now how often can you bank on access to 600 PPE).

Every time I reach a ley line.

2) You'd cast, but requires a 'standard saving throw', so it undependable, and it takes 20 PPE or more, so you probably don't have the PPE to keep trying (Agony! What a great spell! Expensive AND undependable).

And works on everything. If i'm casting a 20 PPE spell it's probably at something that the laser rifle can't harm.

Banishment... I wish Shifters were good at it, you'd think they would be.... but no. If it's big enough that you're willing to spend the 65 PPE, then it's probably big enough to have a bonus Vs magic and it's dangerous enough that you don't want to wait around to do a big ritual... sucks to be you. There is almost no good use for this spell. Find it, kill it, trying to banish it aint gonna do you much good.

Good chance your laser rifle will have an even less chance to solve the problem. Good example, i forget what spell our Necromancer used, but we came up against a scarecrow and noted that none of us were prepared for it. This major, NPC villain was taken down and made a slave by our group necromancer. This is a group with a Juicer, a Psi-stalker, a Headhunter assassin and a gunslinger.

3) It costs a lot of PPE, but doesn't do a whole lot (Like the shadow beast. what are you *really* getting, for 140 PPE, you get, the weakest MDC creature reported in any of the books! The only creature that can be killed by a lucky shot with a vibro knife.. check that... luck's not needed, roll '3' MD, and it's dead). wear lightest armor, Drop smallest MD grenade at feet, do 3MD to whole room, you live, beast dies. Dogs... nice, I've used them.... but you use up a huge portion of your PPE. Why is this so expensive? Are dogs that powerful?

Go back and look at the shadow beasts hide in shadows special ability. And then don't take a shadowbeast into battle, because if you have a shadow beast there shouldn't be a combat to begin with, your enemie should already be dead. (Invisible and undetectible even to tech-sensors and optics and even see the invisible won't reviel them).

4) Does someting comparable to a technological item (armor, strength, speed, Radio communication), but requires initiative to cast whereas Mr Tech has the ability all the time. The mage runs fast when he thinks he'll need it, the juicer runs fast all the time. The mage is strong when he has a mind to be, the juicer is strong all the time. Mr mage spends PPE on the Calling spell, Mr Radio, gets it free provided everyone gets one. Not only that... but calling is a pretty big PPE cost for something a guy with a radio can do at will. It's ok.... but a radio will handle 95% of your Calling needs.

Radio: Scrambler and now I'm listening in on your radio. Can't do that with a MP. SO now the mage has a way to get 100% a secret message across AND he can use the radio when it's not all so dire.

These could be fixed by increasing the duration ('Swim as the fish should last DAYS', if it's supposed to compete with SCUBA gear), or decreasing the cost (one balance I know of one game doing, any spell less than 10 PPE was 'free', and it still didn't unbalance things)

5) Any spell that requires a custom unusual situation. For example, I've seen gaming story after gaming story, and never heard of a PC dying of starvation. Sustain, nice idea for a spell, but though you could argue that mages 'need' it, food shortage is not a major thing for most PC's. Your mage has 'sustain', you need to fabricate situations for it because I've seen party after party, and food's not that big of a deal.

Just because you don't get constant use out of it doesn't mean it doesn't have a use. Sustain is good for a gaming parting traveling the megaverse or is stuck in a strange land. If you stick around just one area (such as NA) then you may not have a problem finding food. You don't need special situations, but the magic is there just in case a party has a need for it. Remember this game isn't tailored specifically for any one person.

Yeah, magic net doesn't get a mark, but if you start marking the spells, you have wide swaths of largely useless or redundant abilities where you take your spells and sit and wait like Aquaman "YEah, one day The villains will strike the Shipyard, and then my water spells will be useful!".

The thing is...a mage has spells for a variety of situations...not just one, hence why mages are concidered versitile. Sure, I may not always have underwater combat, but if it happens, i'll have a spell for it. I may not always have to steal soemthing, but I have spells for it. I may not always have to do X but i will have a spell for it. In a sense, they are more like batman than aquaman. They always have the right instrament for anything that comes up in their utility belt. The only difference is that it's real easy for them to go superman.

[DocS]

1. I guess both those characters are hanging out in CS territory, or very close to it, instead of one of the many places in North America where people have barely heard of the CS.

Boy, you're right! The fact that large numbers of people have animosity against mages and they're easy to detect, really isn't much of a downside. That the CS would kill you on discovery... really not much of a disadvantage at all..... Or is that what you're saying...

From your sarcastic dismissal, I can obviously see that you feel "That the CS dislikes you heartily" and "people may be wary of you" is a disadvantage not even worth mentioning...

So, if only you could convince someone else here who fought tooth and nail a while back about character balance, who fought tooth and claw that "CS animosity" was a major balancing point for some character classes.

(On the large downsides that Robots have which balance out their MDC, marvelous Stats, and amazing skill percentages)

Not as widely accepted as normal humans are.
The CS would capture or destroy any humanoid bot trying to make its way into the city.

One of these Killer cyborgs feels that CS animosity is a major point of game balance (despite the fact that they've not built an empire based on hatred and suspicion of robots), while the other Killer Cyborg thinks CS animosity (and general wariness) is a minor trivial point, to be dismissed with a 'the CS isn't that big and influential, just walk away'.

So, given the CS guards its gates with psi stalkers and dog boys, why is 'CS animosity against robots' something that is a major force of game balance, while 'CS animosity against Mages' is something that you dismiss by simply 'going somewhere in North America where no one knows of the CS....'

[Shotgun Jolly]

I never read all five pages of this post so far, so if i repeat something, forgive me.

But it sounds to me that most players are saying magic is not as effective because the amount of damage it can inflict. I really think they are missing the point on mages. Mages are really wonders of the world and have so MANY things they can do. With out the need for anything but self renewing PPE.

There is pretty much a spell for everything you can think about as well.. limitless. I would suggest if they are worried if you cant deal out great amounts of damage cause of spells, then have a look at all the other combinations of spells they have available to the mage.

I really don't think magic users are such the underdogs they portray themselves to be... You could do almost anything you can think of, if you think of it..

[Shiva7]

Magics better!
As you can do things with it that others using tech at present can't do! Someone brought up Invisablity lesser. I'd like to point out Invis, Super cant' be detected at all and puts tech at an abhorrant dissadvantage, as does Impervious to Energy. Armor of Ithans is resistant to most all forms of energy (1/2 damage) and as one grows will come to surpass non-regenable tech armors.

AoI only takes 1/2 damage from magic fire, lightning and cold; however, energy weapons do regular damage.

Call lightning is, yes, shorter in range than most all railguns, but it comes from the sky meaning you can keep hitting people and not let others know where you comming from and it has a better hit ratio than most tech!
True, if the enemys know this spells range limit they will figure out your in a 300ft radius of them, unless you've casted mystic portal, in which case you may be hundreds of feet further away.

Without Mystic Portal, the spell requires LoS, thus any targets attacked could see the mage it they look around. Mystic Portal does overcome the drawbacks ofCall Lightning.

Next, If you put a level 5 mage in a ring without armor or weapons to face off against a level 80! jucier w/o armor or weapons...the mage will get off his Armor spell and be free to cast other spells moderatly interuption free. He'll win!

[snip]

Little note about magic combat; if the mage doesn't win the initiative, the one attack for low spells might not be able to save him.

On page 189-190, RUE; it explains that if a mage is engaged in combat he must take one action to regain his composure before casting a spell. Thus any parrying, dodging, attacking, or sustaining damage with break the mages concentration and he must first burn one attack before he can cast any spells.

The opponent only needs to win initiative and force the mage to take a defensive action, or cause any amount of damage and the mage is in a pressed attack situation.

The tread is very long, so I apologize if someone has already made a similar comment.

[Shiva7]

I'd say if the first one lands...its pretty much guaranteed they wont flick your nose.

Totally agree but with juicers unlike other opponents it's never a 100% guarentee.

actually, carpet of adhesion only takes 1 attack to cast, and is thus Completely impossible to intterupt.

Except in a pressed attack situation (p. 189-190, RUE)

[Shiva7]

3) Ignore the rule that spells require vocal and visual components (For example "How do I know who cast the 'Call Lightning' on me?, well, since before the bolt struck there was a schmuck chanting and pointing at me, I have a pretty good idea...). Psionics don't need a chant and gesture, but spells do.

Best thing you can do is reread those rules. Mages can cast spells in their head and DO NOT need grand sommantic actions. Nor should they stand out in the open like an idiot casting aloud. It seem that inorder for you to win in you discussions, you feel the need to make all your descriptions of mages, into bumbling blathering idiots who need the constant 24hr parental care of a bed wetter!

As to Psionics, there better than tech! So why aren't you whinning about that?..Or dragons...Or gods...Or Nightspawn?
Magic & mages will eventualy mop the floor with Psychics in raw power! Mages can have More Spells that can end up with the same effects as most psionics but better!

Plus, it's canon that you Can create & modify spells. Pychics Must take from the books for canon discussions!

RUE, p. 189, Step 6, 2nd point.

Call Lightning requires Line of Sight, thus DamonS is correct in his description of the situation.

[Kryzbyn]

Wow.
Yeah steeler it does say you need to speak aloud to cast.
Its in the BoM, among other places, in the questions section in the front of the book.

[Thinyser]

"Gatorade"

"h2o"

"Gatorade!"

"h2o!"

"GATORADE!"

"H2O!"

[Damian Magecraft]

ok after reading this thread i have just one request...
quote book and page where it states that magic "Requires" a visual(somatic for those who are familiar with D&D terms) component...
last time i checked it only required a verbal one...and IIRC said verbal could be whispered or nearly inaudible...therefore said spell slinger is not as easily identifiable....

[Thinyser]

ok after reading this thread i have just one request...
quote book and page where it states that magic "Requires" a visual(somatic for those who are familiar with D&D terms) component...
last time i checked it only required a verbal one...and IIRC said verbal could be whispered or nearly inaudible...therefore said spell slinger is not as easily identifiable....

I think at least one says that the mage has to point at the target... but don't quote me on that...

[Killer Cyborg]

I wish to point out a few rules that most tech lovers may have over looked.

a roll of 1-4 always misses (RMB pp.35, RUE p 340). that is a 20% chance to miss right off the bat. 1-8 misses if your target is 61+ feet away (rifts conversion book on, unrevised p. 9). Now you are up to a 40% to miss.
P.P bonus do not count when using modern W.P. and your hand to hand strike bonus does not count either, only your W.P.

To me that puts tech and magic on the same level. Both have roughly the same chance to work or not work

A 1-4 after strike bonusese always misses.
With an aimed shot and a decent gun, you'd always hit unless you house-ruled things.
Until, finally, RUE added the rule that a natural 1 is always a miss.
(and changed the ranged strike rules to an 8+, IIRC)

[Killer Cyborg]

1. I guess both those characters are hanging out in CS territory, or very close to it, instead of one of the many places in North America where people have barely heard of the CS.

Boy, you're right! The fact that large numbers of people have animosity against mages and they're easy to detect, really isn't much of a downside. That the CS would kill you on discovery... really not much of a disadvantage at all..... Or is that what you're saying...

It certainly IS a disadvantage, if you're stupid enough to go into CS territory.
Just like CS soldiers have the disadvantage of getting killed if they're stupid enough to hang out in Tolkeen (before it was destroyed), or any of the Federation of Magic cities.

But if you're smart, you won't have your character hanging out in enemy territory unless he really has to.

So, given the CS guards its gates with psi stalkers and dog boys, why is 'CS animosity against robots' something that is a major force of game balance, while 'CS animosity against Mages' is something that you dismiss by simply 'going somewhere in North America where no one knows of the CS....'

Since you've neglected to educate yourself about the game of Rifts, I'll be happy to school you a bit.
Rifts Adventure Guide, p. 104
"...for many people living in Rifts North America (and elsewhere in the world) little has changed over the last 300 years. Some have never heard of the Post Apocalyptic Calander, and have only heard tell of the Middle Kingdom calling itself 'Chi-Town' or 'The Coalition States'."

p. 105
"Barbarians and wilderness people are the average folks of Rifts North America. We don't talk about them because their lives are pretty grim and not particularly exotic. They are not the stuff of high adventure, so instead we tend to focuse on the big cities, kingdoms, and Coalition States. However, such bastions of civilization are, however, the true rarity. Full blown cities and large towns, let alone city-states and fledgling kingdoms, are few and far between."

P. 107 (describing wilderness people, the common folk of Rifts Earth)
"At least 50-60% believe that the gods brought magic into the world to '...destroy and forever hold down human tek-knowledge-ee.' Consequently, they fear technology is dangerous and should be forsaken lest people bring upon themselves the wrath of the Nameless Gods for a second time."
In these places, not only would a mage be welcome, he'd be more welcome than anybody in EBA.

Although, "About 15% of those who fear technology and the wrath of the Nameless Gods reject both magic and technology, and chose to live without benefit of either."

But "A good 30-40% of all wilderness people fear and distrust magic..." for pretty much the same reasons; fear of the Nameless Gods.

To spell some things out for you:
-Being a mage is only a downside in places that fear and hate mages. Like CS territory, or places where the majority of people hate/fear magic.
-Being a tech-oriented character is only a downside if you leave the areas of technology. The larger cities and city-states (which are rare; few and far between). There are a decent number of smaller communities that accept technology, but they're limited in capability. So certain high-tech character classes like Bots, Power Armor Pilots, etc. are better off living in large cities, because small villages won't have the capabilites to repair damaged Power Armor or Bots. Of course, most of the tech-oriented places in North America are in CS territory, so if the CS doesn't like you, and you rely on tech, you don't have lot of places you can go.

[Killer Cyborg]

ok after reading this thread i have just one request...
quote book and page where it states that magic "Requires" a visual(somatic for those who are familiar with D&D terms) component...
last time i checked it only required a verbal one...and IIRC said verbal could be whispered or nearly inaudible...therefore said spell slinger is not as easily identifiable....

RUE, p. 189
"To cast a spell requires verbalization- the speaking of the spell invocation. The mantra of the spell must be spoken aloud and with authority. Hand gestures are also usually part of the spell casting process that helps focus and direct the mystic energy."

This tells us several things.
1. You are correct that hand gestures are NOT always required in order to cast a spell.
2. The verbalization cannot be whispered or nearly inaudible. There's no authority in whispering or speaking softly.
3. Hand gestures are usually part of the spell casting process. The gestures help focus and direct the mystic energy, which implies that without gestures casting is not easy. There is no listed penalty for casting without gestures, but I think that some sort of penalty would be appropriate. Longer casting time, higher cost, or something like that.

[Killer Cyborg]

Two attack for player character appeared in first printing of rifts page 37. (I have said book). It also apears in Beyond the Supernatural first edition (published in 1988).

so it was around way before atlantis.

No. Not at all.
You, like many other people, are quite wrong.
What you're referring to is the passage under "Psychic Combat" that states:
"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing."

Which you, like many other people who are utterly wrong, take to mean:
"All PCs start off with 2 attacks per melee automatically. If a character takes a HTH skill, you add the base number of attacks for that skill to the original 2 attacks. If you take boxing, that adds an additional attack as well."

But that's not what it means. This can easily be discovered by:

1. Examing the sample characters in the back of the book (p. 256). An average CS soldier has 2 attacks per melee from HTH: Basic. A SAMAS has 4 attacks per melee, 2 from HTH: Expert and two from Elite Power Armor Combat. Notice that neither of these have the extra two attacks per melee. Neither does the Typical High-Tech Bandit (Headhunter). He has 2 attacks per melee from HTH Expert. Period.

2. Looking at the Hand to Hand skills. HTH Basic left it off due to an editing error, but HTH Expert and HTH Martial Arts both say, at first level, "Two attacks per melee to start". That's because a first level character with HTH training (except Assassin) has two attacks per melee. Period. Not "+2 attacks per melee", which it would say if these 2 attacks were supposed to be added to a base.

3. Reading the "Determing the Number of Attacks Per Melee and Combat Bonuses" section on pages 39-40. It describes how a character piloting a robot or power armor gets both the pilot's normal attacks per melee AND the attacks from their Robot Combat skill. It also says, "Most first level pilots, with both skills, will have a total of FOUR attacks per melee."
Just like the sample SAMAS in the back of the book.
2 attacks from HTH + 2 attacks from Robot Combat = 4 attacks per melee.
No extra two attacks per melee.

4. Reading the sample combat on pages 42-44. Note that the SAMAS pilots run out of attacks after they make 4 attacks. If they had those extra two attacks, then they would have had 6 attacks, not 4.
The UAR-1 Enforcer pilot has a fifth attack, but then he's out and the next melee round starts. If these characters had the extra two attacks you think that they should, then they would have had at least 6 attacks per melee: 2 from HTH, 2 from Robot Combat, and two just for being alive.

So what does that passage you refer to mean?
Simple.

"A reminder: All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee. Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing."

-The part that says, "Additional attacks per melee are gained from the hand to hand skills and boxing" means that if you take boxing you get an extra attack, and if you take a HTH skill then you will gain attacks as you go up in level. As in, if you take HTH Basic then you start with 2 attacks per melee, then you gain more attacks at levels 4, 9, and 15.
-The part that states "All player characters automatically start off with two attacks/actions per 15 second melee." is a bit odd, though.
Page 28 clearly states:
"Characters without combat training have one hand to hand attack per melee at levels one and two, but get a second attack at level three and a third attack at level nine."
So I'm not sure where they're getting that all player characters start off with two attacks per melee. Unless either the passage on p. 28 is a typo (not likely, considering the length or detail), or the authors for some reason assumed that PCs would all take HTH skills (and that nobody would pick Assassin).

Now, some people have taken the italicization of "player" in "all player characters.." to mean that PCs get extra attacks, but NPCs don't. Which they try to use to neutralize the fact that every single sample character and sample combat ignores the supposed Two Attacks For Living.
Nekira, for example, seems to believe this for some reason.

The problem with that notion is that if you keep reading on p. 37, the next sentence is:
"A typical non-player character gets only two attacks per melee plus hand to hand combat and/or boxing skill additions."
Which means the exact same thing as the passage describing Player Characters.

All of the above is stuff that I pointed out for years and years, trying to get people to accept the truth; that the TAFL were NOT always there.
When I went to (2005) Gen-Con and talked to Kevin Siembieda, I asked him about it.
He said that they were an addition to the rules, made after the first few books were released. He's a boxing fan, and he noticed that people can get of a LOT more than 2 attacks per 15 seconds of melee. So he changed the rules.

I ran the idea by him that PCs got more attacks than NPCs, and he said No.

After I got home from Gen-Con, I looked through the copy of CB1 Revised that I bought there. Guess what I found...

CB1R, p. 12-13
"Characters with no hand to hand combat training get one attack/action per melee round at levels 1, 6, and 12...."
"Note: It is rare for most characters not to have at least the Hand to Hand: Basic combat skill, but civilian NPCs like a child, high school student, housewife, white collar worker, or game designer, are probably only going to have one or two attacks per round..."

Which explains a bit of the reasoning going on in assuming that all PCs get 2 attacks per melee. It is assuming that they're going to have at least HTH Basic (and apparently forgets HTH Assassin, or assumes that PCs are going to be Good aligned).

More importantly, and I apparently cannot emphasize this enough:
"Characters with any kind of formal hand to hand combat training (HTH Basic, Expert, Assassin, etc. automatically starts with two attacks per melee, in addition to those provided from their actual hand to hand combat skill. That means a first level character typically starts with FOUR attacks per melee round- two to begin and two from a specific Hand to Hand skill. Game Designer Note: This was not originally the case when I first designed the game system. Back then the character only got the number of attacks provided by the Hand to Hand skill (2), plus those gained from experience in that skill and any possible O.C.C. bonus. A lot of people seem to prefer fewer attacks per round than more. That's okay. If that's what you like, start with only two from Hand to Hand skills and forget about the other two. Role-Playing is flexible, go with what you, as GM, feel most comfortable with. I only increased the starting number (four instead of two) because it seemed more realistic for characters who are trained in combat (including adventurers who need to know how to handle themselves in the wild)."

So not only do I have it from KS himself, I have it in writing, in canon text.
The TAFL were NOT originally in Rifts.
They were added in later.

[Killer Cyborg]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the 1-4 miss rule is based on the die roll before bonuses. Says so twice on the same page (340) in RUE.

I think it's a stupid rule, and ignore it in favor of only a 1 missing, but canon has a roll of 1-4 being an automatic miss.

Yes, a "roll".
Not a "Natural Roll".
As in:
"A roll of 1-4 to strike is always a miss."
and
"A roll of a Natural 20 is always a hit and a critical strike..."

Now turn back a page, to p. 339:
First paragraph after the big, bolded "STEP 2: Attacker Rolls to Strike".
The book clearly states:
"The next step is for the first attacker to roll a twenty-sided die. If the result is a four or less (counting bonuses), the attacker misses. Any roll above a four will hit the opponent, unless the defender can parry or dodge the attack."

[Shiva7]

Without Mystic Portal, the spell requires LoS, thus any targets attacked could see the mage it they look around. Mystic Portal does overcome the drawbacks ofCall Lightning.

But I would like to know why the assumption is made that LoS requires that because I can see them, they can easily see me.

So the target doesn't also take cover and make himself difficult to see?

It works both ways, thus Call Lightning becomes very difficult to use: if the target is behind cover, the the mage must leave his cover to get LoS, or wait for an opportunity where the target is visible for atleast two actions or more. It is not an easy spell to use in combat.

[dark brandon]

Without Mystic Portal, the spell requires LoS, thus any targets attacked could see the mage it they look around. Mystic Portal does overcome the drawbacks ofCall Lightning.

But I would like to know why the assumption is made that LoS requires that because I can see them, they can easily see me.

So the target doesn't also take cover and make himself difficult to see?

It works both ways, thus Call Lightning becomes very difficult to use: if the target is behind cover, the the mage must leave his cover to get LoS, or wait for an opportunity where the target is visible for atleast two actions or more. It is not an easy spell to use in combat.

A simple invisibility and a prowl skill makes it very easy, as well as other spells, and hell, even a mage wearing heavy EBA is going to find it much easier to get LoS. Astral projection is another spell off the top of my head. CoA + call Lightning is another messy situation.

[DocS]

p. 105
"Barbarians and wilderness people are the average folks of Rifts North America. We don't talk about them because their lives are pretty grim and not particularly exotic. They are not the stuff of high adventure, so instead we tend to focuse on the big cities, ."

I thought we were talking about places where PC's were likely to go, *adventure*... I would think that the book stating, essentially, 'these places are terribly homogenous which is why we don't talk about them much and why we will write as if PC's wont spend much time there.' would give a GM a light tip on where the PC's should spend most of their time.

Do you not believe in having the PC's go where the adventure is and where the sourcebooks describe? Palladium books writes literally thousands of pages on areas which "Are the stuff of high adventure", and you don't think that should stilt where the PC's should go.... just a little bit?

Being a mage is a downside in places which fear and hate magic. Of which there are many, there is one that literally stretches from Quebec to Texas, has no less than Three Sourcebooks devoted DIRECTLY to it, and more that Four others devoted to places where this power has heavy influence.... But of course it's only a Downside if the mage is Stupid enough to go into those areas, or the GM is stupid enough to want to use areas described in a big bunch of his sourcebooks, which he has paid good money for and would like to use, rather than the 'general guide' given on Pages 105-107, in the main book, which begins with disclaimer that 'these areas are not the stuff of high adventure'.

Hold CS War Machine, Free Quebec, Lone Star, Juicer Uprising, five of the 'Seige on Tolkeen' books (I'll let 'Cyber knights' out), SOurcebook one, and Sourcebook two (All books which describe areas and places where CS influence is highly felt) in your right hand,

And pages 105-107 of The Rifts book in your left hand, and say "Well, so long as the mages are not stupid enough and I as a GM am not stupid enough to want to use locations or encounters in the books in my right hand, and I keep the vast majority of the game in places described by the three pages in my left hand, then the mages will only have problems 30-40% of the time.

Is that literally how you run your games? And if so, why do you bother buying sourcebooks you're never going to use?

And I ask the question again.... because you dodged it last time. Why is social exclusion and 'lack of acceptance' such an overriding problem for Robots, who can look completely human, are not easily detectable (not that many folks are even looking) and who *don't* have a major power stretching from Quebec to Texas gunning for them.

But it's *Not* much of a problem for mages.... well it can be, but only for the Stupid ones. That the CS is gunning for you, no big deal, it's not like they're expansionist, hugely powerful, hihgly influential, or the major villain of the game or nothin.

I know you think that the mages don't have much of a social acceptance problem, now why in light of the Mages 'lack problem' do you think that human-looking robots have such a large one?

It doesn't make any sense.

[dark brandon]

I thought we were talking about places where PC's were likely to go, *adventure*... I would think that the book stating, essentially, 'these places are terribly homogenous which is why we don't talk about them much and why we will write as if PC's wont spend much time there.' would give a GM a light tip on where the PC's should spend most of their time.

Do you not believe in having the PC's go where the adventure is and where the sourcebooks describe? Palladium books writes literally thousands of pages on areas which "Are the stuff of high adventure", and you don't think that should stilt where the PC's should go.... just a little bit?

Being a mage is a downside in places which fear and hate magic. Of which there are many, there is one that literally stretches from Quebec to Texas, has no less than Three Sourcebooks devoted DIRECTLY to it, and more that Four others devoted to places where this power has heavy influence.... But of course it's only a Downside if the mage is Stupid enough to go into those areas, or the GM is stupid enough to want to use areas described in a big bunch of his sourcebooks, which he has paid good money for and would like to use, rather than the 'general guide' given on Pages 105-107, in the main book, which begins with disclaimer that 'these areas are not the stuff of high adventure'.

Hold CS War Machine, Free Quebec, Lone Star, Juicer Uprising, five of the 'Seige on Tolkeen' books (I'll let 'Cyber knights' out), SOurcebook one, and Sourcebook two (All books which describe areas and places where CS influence is highly felt) in your right hand,

And pages 105-107 of The Rifts book in your left hand, and say "Well, so long as the mages are not stupid enough and I as a GM am not stupid enough to want to use locations or encounters in the books in my right hand, and I keep the vast majority of the game in places described by the three pages in my left hand, then the mages will only have problems 30-40% of the time.

Is that literally how you run your games? And if so, why do you bother buying sourcebooks you're never going to use?

Juicer uprisings is a great book to show the vulnerability of the CS. It also describes mage friendly communities and shows excatly how much total control the CS has. Tolkeen wars also describe mage friendly areas, mage survival tactics.

All KC is saying is that if a mage is going into CS territory, he'd better have a good reason.

Now hold Every other source book in one hand and all the ones devoted to CS. You have phase world, south america, africa, europe, Russia, japan, china, NGR...ect....Even in CS WB10, it says CS cannot constantly patrol all the area it claims it's under it's control. Read about the burbs, and find there are mages that are able to live in an area so very close to CS. How are they able to do it? They are smart about it.

But it's *Not* much of a problem for mages.... well it can be, but only for the Stupid ones. That the CS is gunning for you, no big deal, it's not like they're expansionist, hugely powerful, hihgly influential, or the major villain of the game or nothin.

Depends on what part of the game your playing. A group playing in china will not have much to worry about from the CS. Unless your playing strickly in NA, CS isn't much of a villain.

[Killer Cyborg]

p. 105
"Barbarians and wilderness people are the average folks of Rifts North America. We don't talk about them because their lives are pretty grim and not particularly exotic. They are not the stuff of high adventure, so instead we tend to focuse on the big cities, ."

I thought we were talking about places where PC's were likely to go, *adventure*...

Okay, in which case do you really want me to list all the world books that cover places that the CS doesn't mave much sway?
Flip through the world books and count the number that cover CS territory.
Now count the number that cover places outside of CS territory.
Do the math.

I would think that the book stating, essentially, 'these places are terribly homogenous which is why we don't talk about them much and why we will write as if PC's wont spend much time there.' would give a GM a light tip on where the PC's should spend most of their time.

That all depends on the adventure.
Personally, I think that one of the biggest mistakes that Palladium has made is the lack of detail on the more mundane aspects of Rifts Earth. Without fleshing out the standards for average people on Rifts Earth, readers often mistake the adventuring OCCs as the standard, when they're really supposed to be exceptional.

Being a mage is a downside in places which fear and hate magic. Of which there are many, there is one that literally stretches from Quebec to Texas, has no less than Three Sourcebooks devoted DIRECTLY to it, and more that Four others devoted to places where this power has heavy influence.... But of course it's only a Downside if the mage is Stupid enough to go into those areas,

Yes.

or the GM is stupid enough to want to use areas described in a big bunch of his sourcebooks, which he has paid good money for and would like to use, rather than the 'general guide' given on Pages 105-107, in the main book, which begins with disclaimer that 'these areas are not the stuff of high adventure'.

Or rather, if the GM is stupid enough to set adventures for MAGES in CS territory. There's nothing wrong with using the books you buy, but if you don't tell the players which classes are appropriate for the setting you want, then that's your problem.
Just like you can use your FoM books if you want to, but you should let the players know that playing a CS Grunt might not be the best idea for the stuff you want to run.

Hold CS War Machine, Free Quebec, Lone Star, Juicer Uprising, five of the 'Seige on Tolkeen' books (I'll let 'Cyber knights' out), SOurcebook one, and Sourcebook two (All books which describe areas and places where CS influence is highly felt) in your right hand,

And pages 105-107 of The Rifts book in your left hand, and say "Well, so long as the mages are not stupid enough and I as a GM am not stupid enough to want to use locations or encounters in the books in my right hand [for adventures for mages], and I keep the vast majority of the game in places described by the three pages in my left hand, then the mages will only have problems 30-40% of the time.

Done.
Now what?

(Oh, and I fixed your text for accuracy)

Is that literally how you run your games? And if so, why do you bother buying sourcebooks you're never going to use?

Believe it or not, I don't run every campaign based around mages.

And I ask the question again.... because you dodged it last time. Why is social exclusion and 'lack of acceptance' such an overriding problem for Robots, who can look completely human, are not easily detectable (not that many folks are even looking) and who *don't* have a major power stretching from Quebec to Texas gunning for them.

I didn't dodge it; I answered it.
If you didn't understand the answer, that's your deal.
Ask for clarity on specific points if you need it.

(and what makes you think that robots that look human are NOT easily detectable?)

[DocS]

I didn't dodge it; I answered it.
If you didn't understand the answer, that's your deal.
Ask for clarity on specific points if you need it.

REALLY!? (Looks at previous post for mention of Robots and social stigma, can only find the following mention of Robots

-Being a tech-oriented character is only a downside if you leave the areas of technology. The larger cities and city-states (which are rare; few and far between). There are a decent number of smaller communities that accept technology, but they're limited in capability. So certain high-tech character classes like Bots, Power Armor Pilots, etc. are better off living in large cities, because small villages won't have the capabilites to repair damaged Power Armor or Bots. Of course, most of the tech-oriented places in North America are in CS territory, so if the CS doesn't like you, and you rely on tech, you don't have lot of places you can go.

-if you can find something in there about 'social acceptance being a wholesale and unique problem for robots (as opposed for Power armor pilots, etc).. you're better than me.

If I stretch it.... as far as I can tell, one can imply that what you're trying to say is "In the places where the authors' admit are not terribly interesting, a lot of folks don't like or have much technology" So, in Rifts: Cow Town, robots may not be well liked. But this is a really weak argument that I didn't even think you would be making. Because firstly, it says nothing about the 'unique social stigma of robots' that you have so previously hailed. Robots may have troubles, as would juicers, crazies, Rogue Scholars, and Power armor pilots, if they're obvious and obnoxious. But Rifts:Cow town is 'Not the stuff of high adventure' and so PC's shouldn't be spending too much time there. Then again, maybe the party does need to visit/protect Rifts: cow town and if it's such a low capacity environment (as you keep mentioning)

exactly how are they going to detect a human-looking robot? Why should they even try? There are so many other dangers (like cyborgs, Thornheads, Broodkill...) that they are worried about. So Again, I ask (FOR THE THIRD TIME)

We Know where 'UNIQUE' disdain for Mages would come from, but where would UNIQUE disdain and seeking out of ROBOTS come from

(and what makes you think that robots that look human are NOT easily detectable?)

1) They look and act human?
2) They don't make dogs/rats/horses skittish? (Even Rifts: Cow Town... has easy access ro dogs, rats, and horses, which is one of the major problems, mages will be easily found out and folks are looking)

<And the cincher>

3) No one is really looking for robots, except maybe The Republicans.
The folks in the trenches during The Juicer Uprising encountered a couple such robots.... but they were noteworthy in their rarity. Demons, Sorcerers, Rogue Juicers, Human Bandits, Godlings, Vampires, all of these things are major issues,

But human looking robots? Not so much.

As for the pre-eminance of The CS. Every blue moon I try to say something obvious and I get all this resistance. N. America is the most developed area in Rifts, most developed... by a lot (Why do I have to go into this!? Is there disagreement here? There seems to be.). The game is written from a tenor of "The default setting is North America, we will be writing other books for other places, many other places, but N America will be first and foremost". the CS, has FOUR BOOKS DIRECTLY DEVOTED TO IT (CS War Machine, Lone Star, Free Quebec, CS Navy) and no less than Seven books devoted to its activities and things that happen directly involving it (Juicer Uprising, six books Seige on Tolkeen) , The #2 guys? Atlantis, ALSO with great influence in N America, and they only have two books on them.

the THREE GALAXIES (Galaxies mind you, GALAXIES) have what, five books?

One continent on one planet with only really two or three powers that could be called a 'nation'.... fifteen books (Or more, but it's around fifteen). One nation, 14 million people (if I remember right), accounts for about 11 of those 15 books.

Three Galaxies, thousands of worlds, countless, innumerable, stars, less than half as many books.

Why do I have to say this.... twice!?

All of the social advantages/disadvantages (The idolization of cyber-knights, the liking of Operators, the neutrality towards Borgs, the mild dislike of Juicers, the legendary status of Glitter boys), are based on the assumption that the players are in N America. If you say that social status is an innate part of game balance (As Killer Cyborg does), then you need a 'default' society to discuss the social status in. And for Rifts, N America is the Default. And places where PC's would go in N America is a default.

<Shakes his head> Is there debate on this? Are there people who want to use 'Wormwood' as the default environment? How about the Plasmoid dimension depicted in the last seven pages of Rifter #2? How do *they* see mages? (I don't know of any magic problems, but they may have predjudice against vertebrates, which may be a problem since most PC's do have a backbone).

If anyone thinks another environment should be used in Rifts as the 'default, where most PC's will be made and adventuring', then say it now, which other area is more pre-eminent.

<sigh> and this is the idea of "What most games are like" or "Where most games take place". Why is this always such a fight? There are people who disagree with the statements "Combat occurs a lot in Rifts" and "most PC's don't make it to sixth level" and then feed you story after story of their combat heavy campaigns, and the rampant PC deaths before level four.

If we're not using N America as a default environment, and playing "choose your location'. Fine. Then here goes.

On Ley Line Nexuses, During Summer Equinoxes, coinciding with Solar Eclipses, Mages are TOTALLY overpowered. Therefore the characters are unfair and should never be played for the sakes of the poor GLitter Boys, who are merely trying to get along. I can't see anyone who, if the choice is to be able to make a character wherever they want, doesn't make a mage on a permanent nexus during summer Equinox coinciding with solar eclipse.

Or maybe is there a slight problem with that....... Naaah.

[Killer Cyborg]

I didn't dodge it; I answered it.
If you didn't understand the answer, that's your deal.
Ask for clarity on specific points if you need it.

REALLY!? (Looks at previous post for mention of Robots and social stigma, can only find the following mention of Robots

-Being a tech-oriented character is only a downside if you leave the areas of technology. The larger cities and city-states (which are rare; few and far between). There are a decent number of smaller communities that accept technology, but they're limited in capability. So certain high-tech character classes like Bots, Power Armor Pilots, etc. are better off living in large cities, because small villages won't have the capabilites to repair damaged Power Armor or Bots. Of course, most of the tech-oriented places in North America are in CS territory, so if the CS doesn't like you, and you rely on tech, you don't have lot of places you can go.

Yup.
Clever you; you found it.

-if you can find something in there about 'social acceptance being a wholesale and unique problem for robots (as opposed for Power armor pilots, etc).. you're better than me.

Note the part about "if the CS doesn't like you, and you rely on tech, you don't have a lot of places to go."
The CS doesn't like intelligent robots running around their territory.
Robots tend to rely on technology.
Ergo, robots don't have a lot of places they can go.

If I stretch it.... as far as I can tell, one can imply that what you're trying to say is "In the places where the authors' admit are not terribly interesting, a lot of folks don't like or have much technology"

That's most of North America.

So, in Rifts: Cow Town, robots may not be well liked. But this is a really weak argument that I didn't even think you would be making. Because firstly, it says nothing about the 'unique social stigma of robots' that you have so previously hailed.

Did I really use that specific phrase?

Robots may have troubles, as would juicers, crazies, Rogue Scholars, and Power armor pilots, if they're obvious and obnoxious. But Rifts:Cow town is 'Not the stuff of high adventure' and so PC's shouldn't be spending too much time there. Then again, maybe the party does need to visit/protect Rifts: cow town and if it's such a low capacity environment (as you keep mentioning)

Seriously, you've NEVER had any adventures set in small towns outside of CS territory or other major kingdoms?
Heck, one of the staple adventures we'd always run would be that the party travels into a small town that's under the grips of an evil force of some kind, and the party has to try to save the town and try to leave them some protection for the next major threat that comes along.
I mean, I guess it's not as exciting as having mages wandering around in CS territory, randomly summoning dogs until they get spotted by a patrol, but we thought it was fun.

exactly how are they going to detect a human-looking robot?

The old, "Cut them and see if they bleed" trick works pretty darn well.

Why should they even try? There are so many other dangers (like cyborgs, Thornheads, Broodkill...) that they are worried about.

You're seriously asking why places would look for robots?
Well, places that hate technology tend to.... hate technolgoy.
So they wouldn't be fond of Bots.
(Robots are built using technology)

Or if you're asking about larger places, like CS territory, the CS would want to know everything that enters one of their cities. They would routinly scan everybody who enters or leaves.

So Again, I ask (FOR THE THIRD TIME)

We Know where 'UNIQUE' disdain for Mages would come from, but where would UNIQUE disdain and seeking out of ROBOTS come from

I don't know why you keep using that word "unique", but whatever.

Humanoid looking Bots are pieces of high-technology.
If you seriously don't know any problems that they might run into, here are a few:
-A lot of places hate technology. This would cause them to be prejudiced (at the least) against Bots.
-The CS would see them as D-Bee (or simply rival) technology and have them destroyed or dissected.
-A lot of places would likely view robots as appliances rather than people. The typical bot on Rifts Earth isn't sentient, so people would tend to assume that Bots are all non-sentient. Just like people today assume that cars are non-sentient.
-Cybersnatchers routinely attack people for their cybernetic parts. Do you really think that nobody would think of snatching a Bot? This is something that Bots would have to keep constant guard for. A choppted up Bot could go for millions of credits.

(and what makes you think that robots that look human are NOT easily detectable?)

1) They look and act human?

They can look and act human, yes.
But even then they wouldn't be that hard to spot if you're looking for one.
-They don't sweat, go to the bathroom, eat, drink, etc.
-They stand 6-8' tall.
-They weigh a minimum of 300 lbs. So careful every time you want to sit down, or walk on a less-than-sturdy floor, etc.
-Their MDC skin can give them away under any number of circumstances. The simplest being any attempt to cut or pierce the skin, which would often be required to enter into larger cities. Or as proof that you're human in smaller cities. Or as part of any sort of medical checkup (not that bots would volunteer for this, but it might be required for entrance into a city or for certain jobs, or whatever).
-Any scanning devices that detects cybernetics would detect that the person is really a Bot. Again, something that would be required for a lot of high-tech cities.
-Any sort of mind probe or telepath scan would show that the bot had no mind. Yet again, something that would likely be common to go through before entering a large community. Heck, even in a small community, this is an easy way to be found out.

2) They don't make dogs/rats/horses skittish? (Even Rifts: Cow Town... has easy access ro dogs, rats, and horses, which is one of the major problems, mages will be easily found out and folks are looking)

Not particularly, although I'm not sure how well they'd do at riding a horse.

Also, where does the book say that mages make animals nervous or scared?

<And the cincher>

3) No one is really looking for robots, except maybe The Republicans.
The folks in the trenches during The Juicer Uprising encountered a couple such robots.... but they were noteworthy in their rarity. Demons, Sorcerers, Rogue Juicers, Human Bandits, Godlings, Vampires, all of these things are major issues,

But human looking robots? Not so much.

Sure, but people are always looking out for anything unusual.
-A bot tries to enter a city, and they do the "cut them and see if they bleed test" to make sure that they're a normal person.
They're not; they don't bleed. The guards are going to either deny them access or hold the Bot for a while and find out what the heck they're dealing wtih.
-A community with a few telepathic guards (or dog boys) would likely regularly scan the minds of newcomers. Bots (unless they're transferred intelligence) don't have a mind to scan. Dead givaway that something is wrong.
And so on.
When the Bot tries to sit on the barstool, and the barstool breaks, people probably won't think "He's a ROBOT!", but they'll know that something odd is going on.

[dark brandon]

As for the pre-eminance of The CS. Every blue moon I try to say something obvious and I get all this resistance. N. America is the most developed area in Rifts, most developed... by a lot (Why do I have to go into this!? Is there disagreement here? There seems to be.). The game is written from a tenor of "The default setting is North America, we will be writing other books for other places, many other places, but N America will be first and foremost". the CS, has FOUR BOOKS DIRECTLY DEVOTED TO IT (CS War Machine, Lone Star, Free Quebec, CS Navy) and no less than Seven books devoted to its activities and things that happen directly involving it (Juicer Uprising, six books Seige on Tolkeen) , The #2 guys? Atlantis, ALSO with great influence in N America, and they only have two books on them.

the THREE GALAXIES (Galaxies mind you, GALAXIES) have what, five books?

One continent on one planet with only really two or three powers that could be called a 'nation'.... fifteen books (Or more, but it's around fifteen). One nation, 14 million people (if I remember right), accounts for about 11 of those 15 books.

Three Galaxies, thousands of worlds, countless, innumerable, stars, less than half as many books.

Why do I have to say this....

And in all of those books they have a tendancy to show the vulnerabilities of the CS. CS War machine mentions the impossiblity of them not being able to patrol all the land they claim is theirs. This is exemplified in Juicer Uprisings when a large group of juicers tore down an entire city. Lone star as well tells of their problems, Pecos raiders (who are magic friendly). Free quebec (no longer part of the CS) does not like psychics or Dog-boys. As such they are at a severe disadvantage because they don't have the psionic protection CS has. The 6 Tolkeen books are a meta-plot books, it's a huge event that happend, but it did not change anything other than CS is currently held up on expanding and tolkeen no longer exists. Tolkeen books also show that not all CS soldiers are murdering psychopaths.

[DocS]

Note the part about "if the CS doesn't like you, and you rely on tech, you don't have a lot of places to go."
The CS doesn't like intelligent robots running around their territory.
Robots tend to rely on technology.
Ergo, robots don't have a lot of places they can go.

Robots can go just about anywhere anyone else can go, they just need to go to tech centers if they want technical help. However, being uniquely able to have 94% self-repair skills, inborn tools (laser rods, torches, and high PS for working of materials), your robot does a lot better on raw materials and scrap than even your operator.

That's most of North America. .

But not where most PC's spend most of their time (which is a much more important quantity)

Seriously, you've NEVER had any adventures set in small towns outside of CS territory or other major kingdoms?

No, I've had those, however, they get very dull very quickly, ergo the 'most of their time' comment. You have a consistant problem with the phrases 'most of the time', 'mostly', 'commonly', with thousands of pages of more interesting places written up by the kindly boys at PB, it seemed wiser to shift focus on those. After all, why buy sourcebooks if you're not going to use them? And it's not just CS territory, it in a lot of the areas within a couple hundred miles (Rifts Sourcebook 2, all of it is outside CS territory, and the CS still has a large presence). The CS has bases or embassies from New-England to El Paso,

Anywhere the phrase 'Dead boy' is known, is somewhere where people would know mages, and have an opinion of them, one way or another.

The old, "Cut them and see if they bleed" trick works pretty darn well.

You're seriously asking why places would look for robots?
Well, places that hate technology tend to.... hate technolgoy.
So they wouldn't be fond of Bots.
(Robots are built using technology)

Yeah, they would do that, if they were afraid of being infiltrated by human-looking sentient robots. However, you yourself refuted that one

The typical bot on Rifts Earth isn't sentient, so people would tend to assume that Bots are all non-sentient. Just like people today assume that cars are non-sentient.

The car example is great! Keep it up! You and I are in agreement, and this is why people in Rifts are not on the lookout for intelligent malevolent human-looking robots.... like how you and I are not on the lookout for 'Cars disguised as people who want to infiltrate our cities and sleep with our women'

I couldn't have said it better myself. However the cut and bleed test would disqualify the robot for Juicer sports, unless he was in the Mega-juicer division, then he'd be let in just fine with no cut-n bleed.

Unless he was one of them Manhunter Fleshcoats.... Uh oh. eh, they not in the bot book... but something to think about.

Or if you're asking about larger places...

but I wasn't in that case... Large places would have tests, and protocols for the folks who can't pass them.

I don't know why you keep using that word "unique", but whatever.

Don't you think the CS attitude for supernatural folks is pretty unique to them? And you used a similar problem for Robots.... so thus you suggested some sort of unique hatred of robots (you outright mentioned that they should fear the CS, implying the fear is like the ones mages would have). Is it unique? Or is more like, say, Rogue Scholars with Guns, who also collect pre-rifts gadgets. Are you now saying that the Rogue Scholars with guns are as much disliked a robots? Neither gets into CS cities, neither is liked by tech folks....

If you're willing to say "Robots are equally as reviled as gun-armed Rogue Scholars", then say it. But you were bringing it up as a 'balance for robots' implies some sort of special balance or unique condition. Especially when the conversation was on 'special balances given for robots to counteract their extreme abilities'.

But extreme and unique abilities usually means extreme and unique downsides.

Humanoid looking Bots are pieces of high-technology.
If you seriously don't know any problems that they might run into, here are a few:
-A lot of places hate technology. This would cause them to be prejudiced (at the least) against Bots.
-The CS would see them as D-Bee (or simply rival) technology and have them destroyed or dissected.
-A lot of places would likely view robots as appliances rather than people. The typical bot on Rifts Earth isn't sentient, so people would tend to assume that Bots are all non-sentient. Just like people today assume that cars are non-sentient.
-Cybersnatchers routinely attack people for their cybernetic parts. Do you really think that nobody would think of snatching a Bot? This is something that Bots would have to keep constant guard for. A choppted up Bot could go for millions of credits.

Yeah, all things that would be a problem, if the robot looked cybernetic. If he got that overlay, however, not nearly a problem.

They can look and act human, yes.
But even then they wouldn't be that hard to spot if you're looking for one.
-They don't sweat, go to the bathroom, eat, drink, etc.
-They stand 6-8' tall.
-They weigh a minimum of 300 lbs. So careful every time you want to sit down, or walk on a less-than-sturdy floor, etc.

This is my fave, as if you've never seen a 6' 300lb human? I have, they exist! André the Giant , almost 7' tall, almost 400 pounds. Are you saying he was a robot!?

I've also never seen Andre Sweat, eat, or go to the bathroom. Hmmm, maybe if I was very close to him, I'd notice something up, but since I only seen him in passing, there was no problem. I know a lot of people I've never seen sweat, eat, or poop.

Andre the Giant is a Robot... THEY'RE AMONG US ALREADY!!!! Either that, or there are 7' 300lb humans amongst us, or even 6' 300lb humans even. I'm from Milwaukee, I seen a lot of those!

-Their MDC skin can give them away under any number of circumstances. The simplest being any attempt to cut or pierce the skin, which would often be required to enter into larger cities. Or as proof that you're human in smaller cities. Or as part of any sort of medical checkup (not that bots would volunteer for this, but it might be required for entrance into a city or for certain jobs, or whatever). -Any scanning devices that detects cybernetics would detect that the person is really a Bot. Again, something that would be required for a lot of high-tech cities.
-Any sort of mind probe or telepath scan would show that the bot had no mind. Yet again, something that would likely be common to go through before entering a large community. Heck, even in a small community, this is an easy way to be found out.

Now we're up to medical checkups and thorough scans.... again, something that doesn't happen much (For some reason, parties filled with rogue scholars don't get anal-probed much, when one would think they'd be as likely to be a Terminator as anyone), but more importantly, these can be seen ahead of time and don't happen accidentally.

Moreover, most of these tests can't tell a cyborg (tolerated by most folks, largely due to the '800 MDC Gorilla rule) from a Robot. And then there's protocols (see below)

Not particularly, although I'm not sure how well they'd do at riding a horse.

Also, where does the book say that mages make animals nervous or scared?

Andre can't ride horses either..... THEY ARE AMONG US!!!!

Just ask that one about the animals again, I've been using the 'animals despise magic' example for about four days now, and *now* you're doubting me on it? I'll tell you page # (it's an interesting essay on what animals do when magic is around, which involves a whole lot of yowling and hiding, except when cornered, when they attack). It's in the main book. But first I want to hear your motivation on asking now.

Do you think it's important? I would call 'that horses freak out when mages cast spells' a very big downside for mages...

Are you telling me your game doesn't use the rule? Kind of a big rule to ignore, almost sounds like you're compensating the mages for weakness somehow.... naaah.

-A bot tries to enter a city, and they do the "cut them and see if they bleed test" to make sure that they're a normal person.
They're not; they don't bleed. The guards are going to either deny them access or hold the Bot for a while and find out what the heck they're dealing wtih.
-A community with a few telepathic guards (or dog boys) would likely regularly scan the minds of newcomers. Bots (unless they're transferred intelligence) don't have a mind to scan. Dead givaway that something is wrong.

Now we're getting somewhere. These are also places which see a wide variety of MDC folks (as evidenced by their intensive tests for them). "Something" is up. Mr Bot may not get to enter town, or he may have to have an escort, or a voucher from his Cyberknight friend, or whatever protocol they make cyborgs or juicers go through, if it's the sort of tech center that these characters would need, then it would also have a protocol.

But nothing uniquely malevolent, like, say, being attacked by and torn limb from limb by a dogpack (after a townsfolk turns him in for magic for a bounty from a local CS base that gives 100 credits per head).

See you're slowly coming about...... most folks will think 'something is up', but provided Mr Bot doesn't cause trouble (cuz he's not all twitchy and crazy like the juicer or Mr Knobhead), problems can be evaded. Do you see the difference? The Mage needs to conceal his nature or else he may be KILLED. There are guys who have a stated goal to KILL him. LOTS OF THEM, WITH BIG DEATH MACHINES! The robot conceals his nature, or, folks will think he's a borg/somethin funky.

But you play UP the problems that robots will have, and you play DOWN the problems mages have, when mages are so much more easily detectible (especially if they're wearing any sort of magic item), more people are looking for them, and the people who are looking for them are quite persistent. You can stumble on a mage, but you need to be looking for the robot somehow.

Keep the 'mage entry' and 'bot entry' problems in mind of each other, and one of them has his heart in his throat whenever he goes somewhere new in N America, the other can have his diodes relaxed since 'most' (there's that word again) of the time, the worst that happens is they don't let him in town. It's not like there's a propaganda machine demonizing what he is 24/7..... (in fact, the 'lack' of a supernatural signature will make folks think he's a borg of some kind, a funky one, but they know borgs).

When the Bot tries to sit on the barstool, and the barstool breaks, people probably won't think "He's a ROBOT!", but they'll know that something odd is going on.

I wonder, did Andre ever find Sarah Connor?

[Killer Cyborg]

Note the part about "if the CS doesn't like you, and you rely on tech, you don't have a lot of places to go."
The CS doesn't like intelligent robots running around their territory.
Robots tend to rely on technology.
Ergo, robots don't have a lot of places they can go.

Robots can go just about anywhere anyone else can go, they just need to go to tech centers if they want technical help.

I'm confused. If you're talking about adventuring, then are you assuming that a robot is never going to get damaged?
Because if a Bot gets damaged, he'll need to go to a tech center.

However, being uniquely able to have 94% self-repair skills, inborn tools (laser rods, torches, and high PS for working of materials), your robot does a lot better on raw materials and scrap than even your operator.

Where to start?
1. You really think your Bot is going to pass for human after he patches himself up with scrap?
2. It's not just the skills, it's the tools.
3. For that matter, it's the parts.

That's most of North America. .

But not where most PC's spend most of their time (which is a much more important quantity)

Says who?

Seriously, you've NEVER had any adventures set in small towns outside of CS territory or other major kingdoms?

No, I've had those, however, they get very dull very quickly,

Well, it's not all dog-summoning...
But a good GM and decent players can have a blast with it.

ergo the 'most of their time' comment. You have a consistant problem with the phrases 'most of the time', 'mostly', 'commonly', with thousands of pages of more interesting places written up by the kindly boys at PB, it seemed wiser to shift focus on those. After all, why buy sourcebooks if you're not going to use them?

No reason at all.
Which is why I use the sourcebooks that I buy, and which is why I don't buy books that I won't use (like Japan).
But I'm not sure what you're talking about here, because wilderness stuff is covered in any number of books, and it can incorporate things from other books without any problems.

And it's not just CS territory, it in a lot of the areas within a couple hundred miles (Rifts Sourcebook 2, all of it is outside CS territory, and the CS still has a large presence).

Because they're AT WAR with the mechanoids there.

The CS has bases or embassies from New-England to El Paso, Anywhere the phrase 'Dead boy' is known, is somewhere where people would know mages, and have an opinion of them, one way or another.

Right.
One way, or the other.
Meaning that some people would be unfriendly to mages, and some people would be friendly to mages.
Just like the Adventure book describes.
So what's your point?

The old, "Cut them and see if they bleed" trick works pretty darn well.

You're seriously asking why places would look for robots?
Well, places that hate technology tend to.... hate technolgoy.
So they wouldn't be fond of Bots.
(Robots are built using technology)

Yeah, they would do that, if they were afraid of being infiltrated by human-looking sentient robots. However, you yourself refuted that one

Or if they wanted to check to see if the person was a normal human or not.
Hint: If they bleed anything but red, or if they don't bleed at all, or if a knife can't even pierce their skin, they're probably NOT human.
Are Robots seriously the ONLY thing you can think of that this test might catch?
It's a basic security measure to make sure that metamorphed demons/dragons/etc don't just waltz into town unnoticed.
Or, in tech-phobic places, cyborgs and other stuff.
Not through the front gate, anyway.

Besides, bots aren't completely unknown, even human-looking ones.
It's sentient bots that are the rarity.

I don't know why you keep using that word "unique", but whatever.

Don't you think the CS attitude for supernatural folks is pretty unique to them?

No, not really.
The CS hates pretty much anything that it doesn't understand, anything that it can't control, and anything not from Earth.
They don't distinguish much between demons and D-Bees, and they're just as likely to hunt down a Rogue Scholar for teaching kids to read as they are to hunt down a mage for summoning dogs.

And you used a similar problem for Robots.... so thus you suggested some sort of unique hatred of robots (you outright mentioned that they should fear the CS, implying the fear is like the ones mages would have). Is it unique? Or is more like, say, Rogue Scholars with Guns, who also collect pre-rifts gadgets. Are you now saying that the Rogue Scholars with guns are as much disliked a robots? Neither gets into CS cities, neither is liked by tech folks....

Rogue Scholars are also hunted by the CS, yes.
That's why they're Rogue Scholars.
Haven't you read the books?

If you're willing to say "Robots are equally as reviled as gun-armed Rogue Scholars", then say it. But you were bringing it up as a 'balance for robots' implies some sort of special balance or unique condition. Especially when the conversation was on 'special balances given for robots to counteract their extreme abilities'.

More and more I'm wondering why you're wanting to talk about robots and scholars in a Mage thread.
Scholars are hunted.
Mages are hunted.
Sentient Robots are (if they're detected) also hunted.

Robots and mages are easy to detect.
Scholars are not. They look just like everybody else. They're not 6' tall, 300 lb, non-bleeding freaks, and they're not going to set off a Dog Boy's senses every time they teach a kid to read.
It's a downside for scholars, but it's not as bad for them as it is for mages and Bots.

But extreme and unique abilities usually means extreme and unique downsides.

If you say so.

Humanoid looking Bots are pieces of high-technology.
If you seriously don't know any problems that they might run into, here are a few:
-A lot of places hate technology. This would cause them to be prejudiced (at the least) against Bots.
-The CS would see them as D-Bee (or simply rival) technology and have them destroyed or dissected.
-A lot of places would likely view robots as appliances rather than people. The typical bot on Rifts Earth isn't sentient, so people would tend to assume that Bots are all non-sentient. Just like people today assume that cars are non-sentient.
-Cybersnatchers routinely attack people for their cybernetic parts. Do you really think that nobody would think of snatching a Bot? This is something that Bots would have to keep constant guard for. A choppted up Bot could go for millions of credits.

Yeah, all things that would be a problem, if the robot looked cybernetic. If he got that overlay, however, not nearly a problem.

Unless people notice that he's a freakin' ROBOT, which, as I pointed out, is not exactly rocket science.

They can look and act human, yes.
But even then they wouldn't be that hard to spot if you're looking for one.
-They don't sweat, go to the bathroom, eat, drink, etc.
-They stand 6-8' tall.
-They weigh a minimum of 300 lbs. So careful every time you want to sit down, or walk on a less-than-sturdy floor, etc.

This is my fave, as if you've never seen a 6' 300lb human? I have, they exist! André the Giant , almost 7' tall, almost 400 pounds. Are you saying he was a robot!?

Are you saying that he blends in?

He's not a bot, but he stands out and people would keep an eye on him for anything unusual. And if he was a robot, then they'd be likely to find it.

[I've also never seen Andre Sweat, eat, or go to the bathroom. Hmmm, maybe if I was very close to him, I'd notice something up, but since I only seen him in passing, there was no problem. I know a lot of people I've never seen sweat, eat, or poop.

If you don't see how those could be a giveaway, I can't help you.
People notice details.

Andre the Giant is a Robot... THEY'RE AMONG US ALREADY!!!! Either that, or there are 7' 300lb humans amongst us, or even 6' 300lb humans even. I'm from Milwaukee, I seen a lot of those!

The difference is that with Robots, they generally don't look like they weigh 300 lbs.
Unless you think that all bots with artifical skin are also fat?

-Their MDC skin can give them away under any number of circumstances. The simplest being any attempt to cut or pierce the skin, which would often be required to enter into larger cities. Or as proof that you're human in smaller cities. Or as part of any sort of medical checkup (not that bots would volunteer for this, but it might be required for entrance into a city or for certain jobs, or whatever). -Any scanning devices that detects cybernetics would detect that the person is really a Bot. Again, something that would be required for a lot of high-tech cities.
-Any sort of mind probe or telepath scan would show that the bot had no mind. Yet again, something that would likely be common to go through before entering a large community. Heck, even in a small community, this is an easy way to be found out.

Now we're up to medical checkups and thorough scans.... again, something that doesn't happen much (For some reason, parties filled with rogue scholars don't get anal-probed much, when one would think they'd be as likely to be a Terminator as anyone), but more importantly, these can be seen ahead of time and don't happen accidentally.

They don't accidentally happen because your bot doesn't try to get into cities that do such tests. Which would be most of them.
Which means that any time he wants in or out of a decent city, he has to be smuggled in.

Moreover, most of these tests can't tell a cyborg (tolerated by most folks, largely due to the '800 MDC Gorilla rule) from a Robot. And then there's protocols (see below)

Scans would be able to tell the difference.

Andre can't ride horses either..... THEY ARE AMONG US!!!!

Again, are you saying that all bots look like Andre the Giant?

Also, where does the book say that mages make animals nervous or scared?

Just ask that one about the animals again, I've been using the 'animals despise magic' example for about four days now, and *now* you're doubting me on it?

Actually, I always doubt you.
I just now got around to calling you on it.

I'll tell you page # (it's an interesting essay on what animals do when magic is around, which involves a whole lot of yowling and hiding, except when cornered, when they attack). It's in the main book. But first I want to hear your motivation on asking now.

Because I've been meaning to, but didn't get around to it until now.

Do you think it's important? I would call 'that horses freak out when mages cast spells' a very big downside for mages...

a) Not so much, unless you assume that mages are always casting spells.
b) Where does it say that animals freak out when spells are cast?

Are you telling me your game doesn't use the rule? Kind of a big rule to ignore, almost sounds like you're compensating the mages for weakness somehow.... naaah.

Show me the rule, and I'll tell you if we use it.

-A bot tries to enter a city, and they do the "cut them and see if they bleed test" to make sure that they're a normal person.
They're not; they don't bleed. The guards are going to either deny them access or hold the Bot for a while and find out what the heck they're dealing wtih.
-A community with a few telepathic guards (or dog boys) would likely regularly scan the minds of newcomers. Bots (unless they're transferred intelligence) don't have a mind to scan. Dead givaway that something is wrong.

Now we're getting somewhere. These are also places which see a wide variety of MDC folks (as evidenced by their intensive tests for them). "Something" is up. Mr Bot may not get to enter town, or he may have to have an escort, or a voucher from his Cyberknight friend, or whatever protocol they make cyborgs or juicers go through, if it's the sort of tech center that these characters would need, then it would also have a protocol.

Cyborgs are obviously cybernetic.
Bots are not.
You're not going to mistake a perfectly human-looking MDC arm for a cybernetic arm.
And the protocol for cyborgs entering a major tech city is for them to be scanned, and for their weapons to be disarmed.
The scans would reveal a lack of human parts.

But nothing uniquely malevolent, like, say, being attacked by and torn limb from limb by a dogpack (after a townsfolk turns him in for magic for a bounty from a local CS base that gives 100 credits per head).

You really think that your average townsfolk are going to attack a mage for 100 credits?
And you don't consider a bot being chopped up for parts, or otherwise destroyed, to be malevolent?

See you're slowly coming about...... most folks will think 'something is up', but provided Mr Bot doesn't cause trouble (cuz he's not all twitchy and crazy like the juicer or Mr Knobhead), problems can be evaded.

Not so much.
Have you ever tried to get through any heavy security?
Imagine trying to go through an airport, and the metal detector beeps.
Even though your pockets are empty.
IF you calmly excused yourself and tried to walk out, do you think that the security would let you go without checking your further?
If they discovered that you were a robot, do you think they'd say to themselves, "But he seems like a nice guy; let's let him go about his business."
No.
And pretty much the same thing applies on Rifts Earth.
You try to go into a CS city, and they realize they can't cut your skin, you think they'll let you go?
Pieces of you, maybe.
You try to go into some other, more open minded place, and the same thing happens, they'll still want to know what's up.
What are you going to tell them? "I just have thick skin?"
If you're a Mega-Juicer, where's your harness?
If you're a cyborg, where the HELL did you get those advanced cybernetics that are leaps above anything the local security has seen bevore?
These won't be easy questions to answer, and they won't let you go until they find out more. In which case, they're going to eventually find out that you're a Bot.
And then the real trouble will begin.

Do you see the difference? The Mage needs to conceal his nature or else he may be KILLED. There are guys who have a stated goal to KILL him. LOTS OF THEM, WITH BIG DEATH MACHINES! The robot conceals his nature, or, folks will think he's a borg/somethin funky.

People on Rifts Earth are jumpy.
"somethin' funky" often means "shoot to kill!"

But you play UP the problems that robots will have, and you play DOWN the problems mages have, when mages are so much more easily detectible (especially if they're wearing any sort of magic item), more people are looking for them, and the people who are looking for them are quite persistent. You can stumble on a mage, but you need to be looking for the robot somehow.

There are mage-friendly communities.
Lots of 'em.

How many Bot-friendly communities can you name?

(and, as I keep pointing out, bots can easily be stumbled upon)

[DocS]

Just checking on progress...

Robots and mages are easy to detect.

People on Rifts Earth are jumpy.
"somethin' funky" often means "shoot to kill!"

So, given that you're up to the point of 'Mages are easy to detect', why again were you so dismissive of the idea that 'A major disadvantage for mages is their difficulty in concealing themselves and the possible, and probably hostile response upon revealing their nature'? I mean, that's how we got on this whole thing.

You were regailing me on how 'mages really don't have to worry and only stupid mages would have problems with social exclusion or the possible 'psycho' response of unknown communities'. But now you're seeing things more clearly, now you're there, "mages are easy to detect, and this is a major problem".

So there we go, for poor Gazban and any mage, you said it best.

mages are easy to detect.

People on Rifts Earth are jumpy.
"somethin' funky" often means "shoot to kill!"

Yeah, this does suck for the mages. Anything you say about the 'friendly communities' is kind of irrelevant, it's the 'unfriendly' ones that are the problem! We're talking about the unfriendly ones. Good thing we're on the same page regarind Magical social problems though, your average mage is indeed plagued by the fact that he's easy to detect and that folks in Rifts oftentimes respond to funkyness with shooting to kill.

Right.
One way, or the other.
Meaning that some people would be unfriendly to mages, and some people would be friendly to mages.
Just like the Adventure book describes.
So what's your point?

I guess, my point would be that the friendly communities are no problem, but the unfriendly ones are, and that it's tricky to tell right away, especially since..................

mages are easy to detect.

People on Rifts Earth are jumpy.
"somethin' funky" often means "shoot to kill!"

As for Robots (I knew that if I mentioned the Robots you would fall right in line on the Mages).

The difference is that with Robots, they generally don't look like they weigh 300 lbs.
Unless you think that all bots with artifical skin are also fat?

Robots can look... however the Player likes, within limits.

I guess if my interest was in making a robot that would be difficult to detect, I would make him look proportional somehow. Eh, but that would only be if I was interested in actually making a robot that would blend in with humanity easily.......

You seem like a smart fellow, but why does that seem like such a lame idea to you? "My robot weights 300 lbs I can't change that, some humans weigh 300 lbs I can have my robot look however I want, I shall make my robot look like a human who weighs 300 lbs"

Am I missing something here? Why is this a stupid idea again? Looks to me like an easy and simple way to get past the 'Robot bathroom scale' test. Even if you're Jealous of the fact that Argent looks like Leo DiCaprio, you can make your robot look like Marlon Brando, or John Goodman! Andre is too much, he was 400 lbs, but if your robot had a reinforement, you may have to go there. Why is making your 300 lb robot look like a 300 lb human such a lame/unlikely idea?

Fundamental point...... robot weight is NOT a problem. Unless you're dealing with a community that, for some reason, doesn't let people over 299 lbs enter. (no one has ever reported one). Yes, a humanoid robot can weigh 900 lbs, but you know, if I designed a robot that weighed 900 bs, I'd not be focusing on getting this thing to pass for human. I'd make the robot lighter, human weight.

As for telling the difference between robots and cyborgs

Scans would be able to tell the difference.

'scans', what kind of 'scans' are these again? Who has them? Where are they discussed again? This would be an important rule, probably something that would be discussed in either The Borg or Robot section... Where is it? If I were working of my own knowledge several scans that would be great for detecting robotic things but human parts would be totally invisible (among other things, My lab does work in Medical imaging), but I don't remember any Books discussing this.... IF it's there, I think a section on how difficult it is to do, how long, (MRI takes a while), also on whether you can see it coming (I can see a metal-detector and can know beforehand I need to evade it..... 'Accidentaly metal detection' never happens, 'accidentally' walking by a cat, however? )

Tell you what, tell me what book/page these 'scans' are, what they detect, and who does them. It's important, I've never used this rule, I've used the "at best they use the portable bioscan on you, if they think anything further is needed, you need a personal vouncher or you gonna have to sneak in'

Also, where does the book say that mages make animals nervous or scared?

when asked if this rule would be important

a) Not so much, unless you assume that mages are always casting spells.
b) Where does it say that animals freak out when spells are cast?


Show me the rule, and I'll tell you if we use it

So.... you don't know the rule...... you don't know where it is..... you don't think it's important (at least 'not so much')........ and you don't know whether you use it or not......

am I getting this right?

you don't know whether your cyberknight's horse has a negative reaction to spells? It's not that it does or it doesn't, it's that 'you wont know until I give you a page number' if it did or not!?

Shifter: "I cast 'calling'
Cyberknight: "Is my horse rearing?"
The GM (you), "you don't know if your horse is rearing or not! Tell me the page number of the rule!"

At least say "we either don't use that rule or we interpreted that to mean....", weedling like that is soooooooo, unbecoming!

[Killer Cyborg]

Just checking on progress...

Robots and mages are easy to detect.

People on Rifts Earth are jumpy.
"somethin' funky" often means "shoot to kill!"

So, given that you're up to the point of 'Mages are easy to detect', why again were you so dismissive of the idea that 'A major disadvantage for mages is their difficulty in concealing themselves and the possible, and probably hostile response upon revealing their nature'? I mean, that's how we got on this whole thing.

Because it's not a MAJOR disadvantage unless you spend all your time hanging out in CS territory, which mages typically do not do.

So there we go, for poor Gazban and any mage, you said it best.

mages are easy to detect.

People on Rifts Earth are jumpy.
"somethin' funky" often means "shoot to kill!"

Yeah, this does suck for the mages. Anything you say about the 'friendly communities' is kind of irrelevant, it's the 'unfriendly' ones that are the problem! We're talking about the unfriendly ones.

No, you are inordinately focused on the unfriendly ones.
I'm talking about North America in general.
Because there's no more reason for a mage to be hanging out in CS territory than there is for a CS Grunt to be hanging out in The City of Brass or in Dweomer.

Right.
One way, or the other.
Meaning that some people would be unfriendly to mages, and some people would be friendly to mages.
Just like the Adventure book describes.
So what's your point?

I guess, my point would be that the friendly communities are no problem, but the unfriendly ones are

Stop me if you've heard this one:

Doctor: What seems to be the probem?
Patient: It hurts when I do this!
Doctor: Don't do that.

Don't hang out in places where people hate you and hunt you, and you aren't going to have a real problem.

As for Robots (I knew that if I mentioned the Robots you would fall right in line on the Mages).

Unsurprisingly, you knew wrong.

The difference is that with Robots, they generally don't look like they weigh 300 lbs.
Unless you think that all bots with artifical skin are also fat?

Robots can look... however the Player likes, within limits.

And how many players want their Bot to look like they're fat?

I guess if my interest was in making a robot that would be difficult to detect, I would make him look proportional somehow. Eh, but that would only be if I was interested in actually making a robot that would blend in with humanity easily...

You still think that Andre the Giant blends?

You seem like a smart fellow, but why does that seem like such a lame idea to you? "My robot weights 300 lbs I can't change that, some humans weigh 300 lbs I can have my robot look however I want, I shall make my robot look like a human who weighs 300 lbs"

Am I missing something here? Why is this a stupid idea again? Looks to me like an easy and simple way to get past the 'Robot bathroom scale' test. Even if you're Jealous of the fact that Argent looks like Leo DiCaprio, you can make your robot look like Marlon Brando, or John Goodman! Andre is too much, he was 400 lbs, but if your robot had a reinforement, you may have to go there. Why is making your 300 lb robot look like a 300 lb human such a lame/unlikely idea?

How many 300 lb people do you think are wandering around in the harsh, post-apocalyptic world of Rifts?
Not many.
Sure, it would make the weight seem more proportional, but your character would still stick out like a sore thumb in most places.
Granted, they probably wouldn't think you were a robot, but you certainly wouldn't blend.

And, of course, that's just with the basic 300 lb frame.
Any additional frame supports come in at 100 lbs each.

Fundamental point...... robot weight is NOT a problem. Unless you're dealing with a community that, for some reason, doesn't let people over 299 lbs enter. (no one has ever reported one). Yes, a humanoid robot can weigh 900 lbs, but you know, if I designed a robot that weighed 900 bs, I'd not be focusing on getting this thing to pass for human. I'd make the robot lighter, human weight.

So a robot's weight isn't any problem because he can just look like a fat guy if he wants to avoid trouble...
But a mage can't avoid CS territory if he wants to avoid trouble?

As for telling the difference between robots and cyborgs

Scans would be able to tell the difference.

'scans', what kind of 'scans' are these again? Who has them? Where are they discussed again? This would be an important rule, probably something that would be discussed in either The Borg or Robot section... Where is it?

1. CWC, p. 30, under "City Access Laws.
"These port of entury guards also use a battery of special sensors and optic systems to 'scan' visitors for unnatural signatures and concealed weapons. Those who fall under suspicion are escorted to a holding area by two ISS Inspectors and a pair of Psi-Hounds for a more thorough examination. Such examinations may include a battery of tests, physical examinations and further psionic scanning by high-level Psi-Stalkers, Mind Melters or the most sensitive Psi-Hound."

So there you go.
And note that if they're pulled aside, that there is further psionic examination.
Meaning that they psionically scan everybody going through.
Good luck getting a Bot to pass for a normal human during a Telepathic or Empathic probe.

Also:
"Psi-Stalkers and Psi-Hounds sniff and sense for the presence of magic, psionics, and the supernatural. Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers can also detect human-looking D-Bees (80% success ratio) and dragons and other shape-changing creatures (73%+ success ratio)."

If they have an 80% chance to detect human-looking D-Bees with their sniffing/sensing, I'd say that they'd have at least as as good of a chance with a robot. Robots don't smell the same as people. No body odor (other than plastic and such).

Also, where does the book say that mages make animals nervous or scared?

when asked if this rule would be important

a) Not so much, unless you assume that mages are always casting spells.
b) Where does it say that animals freak out when spells are cast?


Show me the rule, and I'll tell you if we use it

So.... you don't know the rule...... you don't know where it is..... you don't think it's important (at least 'not so much')........ and you don't know whether you use it or not......

am I getting this right?

Pretty much.
I wouldn't say that it's completely unimportant, but I can't recall it ever coming up in a game.

Which it wouldn't, if you just hallucinated it.

you don't know whether your cyberknight's horse has a negative reaction to spells? It's not that it does or it doesn't, it's that 'you wont know until I give you a page number' if it did or not!?

Shifter: "I cast 'calling'
Cyberknight: "Is my horse rearing?"
The GM (you), "you don't know if your horse is rearing or not! Tell me the page number of the rule!"

At least say "we either don't use that rule or we interpreted that to mean....", weedling like that is soooooooo, unbecoming!

Generally, we drive vehicles.
Although some characters I can remember did have robot horses.

In any case, did you ever happen to find that supposed rule?
Still looking?

[The Beast]

Also, where does the book say that mages make animals nervous or scared?

when asked if this rule would be important

a) Not so much, unless you assume that mages are always casting spells.
b) Where does it say that animals freak out when spells are cast?


Show me the rule, and I'll tell you if we use it

So.... you don't know the rule...... you don't know where it is..... you don't think it's important (at least 'not so much')........ and you don't know whether you use it or not......

am I getting this right?

you don't know whether your cyberknight's horse has a negative reaction to spells? It's not that it does or it doesn't, it's that 'you wont know until I give you a page number' if it did or not!?

He's not the only one who hasn't heard of this rule. I remember reading that animals were frightened by the scent of the supernatural, but this would be the first time I've heard it applied to magic in general. So would you please point out the page number and book so everyone can look.

[dark brandon]

Also, where does the book say that mages make animals nervous or scared?

when asked if this rule would be important

a) Not so much, unless you assume that mages are always casting spells.
b) Where does it say that animals freak out when spells are cast?


Show me the rule, and I'll tell you if we use it

So.... you don't know the rule...... you don't know where it is..... you don't think it's important (at least 'not so much')........ and you don't know whether you use it or not......

am I getting this right?

you don't know whether your cyberknight's horse has a negative reaction to spells? It's not that it does or it doesn't, it's that 'you wont know until I give you a page number' if it did or not!?

He's not the only one who hasn't heard of this rule. I remember reading that animals were frightened by the scent of the supernatural, but this would be the first time I've heard it applied to magic in general. So would you please point out the page number and book so everyone can look.

Just to add, I too don't remember them being freaked out by mages. I know animals are always concidered unwilling, but recieve a -4 to save.

[Preacher]

I have been looking for the reference on Animals being sensitive to magic.

The only ones I can find right off is in Lonestar Pg. 30 for that Dog Boys (and ordinary canines, both wild and domesticated).

&

Pg. 204 in PFRPG Monsters & Animals, Yeah I know it ain't a Rifts book.

Sensitivity to the Supernatural and Potential Psychic Energy
(P.P.E.): Horses (and canines) are among the most sensitive
animals in the world when it comes to sensing the presence
of immense magic energy and the supernatural, particularly supernatural
evil.

& Pg. 216 Monsters & Animals

Cats and Felines can also sense Supernatural.

I know there are more but can't for the life of me find them.

[DocS]

Because it's not a MAJOR disadvantage unless you spend all your time hanging out in CS territory, which mages typically do not do.

Wait a second... that implies that the below statements said anything about "The CS'..... (Checks the statement)

mages are easy to detect.

People on Rifts Earth are jumpy.
"somethin' funky" often means "shoot to kill!"

nope, you were talking about the people on the whole planet, you said so!

I would call having your funkyness 'easy to detect', and that people of Rifts earth... would.... "often' do this to 'shoot to kill'.... this is a majopr disaadvantage, at least by the measurement of "major disadvantage is one that can lead to the sudden and terrible death of the character".



As for the 300 lb robot.

.
Granted, they probably wouldn't think you were a robot, but you certainly wouldn't blend.

Correct, the point is to have people 'not think he's a robot', the point is to have a perfect excuse for weighing 300 lbs. I don't understand why your weight diatribe went one word beyond the above statement. I said that 'If the robot looked like a human who would weigh 300 lbs, then no one would find his weight suspicious if he weighed 300 lbs'. You agreed. 'nuff' said here. Fat jokes? He may get. "gunshot", probably not.

So a robot's weight isn't any problem because he can just look like a fat guy if he wants to avoid trouble...
But a mage can't avoid CS territory if he wants to avoid trouble?

Almost there, I wish you had stopped here and looked at this statement closely, and had the following occurr to you...

It is a lot easier to make a robot whose weight is not incriminating, than it is to make a Mage who is totally beyond CS influence. The Guy who wants a mage with no CS problem? Has to ask the GM to run the campaign somewhere else on rifts earth..... If the campaign is already running (for example, a mechanoids campaign), then asking the GM to 'move it' because 'mages having problems with CS folks is 'optional', is not going to happen.

One requires a slight, allowable alteration in character generation (And this assumes the GM wants to be a real stickler on it). the other requires a total fundamental accomodation on the part of the GM and the rest of the party. So yes, the robot's weight is a much easier problem to solve than the CS anger against mages. That is, if you look at it from a perspective of an RPG, which this is.

As for telling the difference between robots and cyborgs

Scans would be able to tell the difference.

1. CWC, p. 30, under "City Access Laws.
"These port of entury guards also use a battery of special sensors and optic systems to 'scan' visitors for unnatural signatures and concealed weapons. Those who fall under suspicion are escorted to a holding area by two ISS Inspectors and a pair of Psi-Hounds for a more thorough examination. Such examinations may include a battery of tests, physical examinations and further psionic scanning by high-level Psi-Stalkers, Mind Melters or the most sensitive Psi-Hound."

Now did you ever have PC's Go through this process? This is how it goes.

Robot: On the first scan, No unnatural signitures (As in NONE, this is the point here!), and provided he declares his weapons at the door, no concealed weapons either. If he follows the rules, he doesn't get pulled aside.

Unless you can find where in the Robot Book is says robots give off 'Unnatural signatures', then explain why borgs don't but robots do.

Now if you want to get silly here, we can, for the stickler. "The scanners will tell if there's no organic matter", at which point I say "A full conversion borg can have.... maybe as little 4 lbs of organic matter." Really, at the full conversion level, they're little more than transferred intelligences! So the robot puts a compartment in its body, fills it with 4 lbs of meat, scanners see 99% cybernetic, 1% organic, which is what a full conversion cyborg is. And again, he gets by, and gets treated like a cyborg, whcih isn't really getting by (he needs to sign in his weapons, and doo all the borg stuff), but if he follows the rules, he avoids the roto-rooter.

So these tests, that are designed to stop mages and telepaths, it's really kind of silly to assume that they'll tell '99% Cybernetic' from '100% cybernetic', especially since the CS doesn't care about the difference, but if you make that silly assumption, then adding the '1%' is really not hard.

They do probably stop him however, full conversion cyborgs are not really allowed to run around towns. He's not illegal, but he's not allowed entry.

Although, by posting 'The CS' gate procedures, are you saying that the main gates of large CS cities are inevitable obstacles for Robots? CS patrols/troops/psi stalkers, I'll call inevitable obstacles, as they are flying around and you don't know where they are at any given moment (but yout don't think so), but the main gates of large CS cities is not 'avoidable'? Avoiding a big city, or planning around it, not so difficult, but planning around swooping patrols of soldiers, is trickier.

"Psi-Stalkers and Psi-Hounds sniff and sense for the presence of magic, psionics, and the supernatural. Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers can also detect human-looking D-Bees (80% success ratio) and dragons and other shape-changing creatures (73%+ success ratio)."

If they have an 80% chance to detect human-looking D-Bees with their sniffing/sensing, I'd say that they'd have at least as as good of a chance with a robot. Robots don't smell the same as people. No body odor (other than plastic and such).

'you'd' say they have at least that good of a chance.... or is there any sort of "Actual' discussion of robot detection?

Robots aren't "magic, psionic, or supernatural', they don't really fall under the category of 'human looking D-Bees", "Dragons", or "shapeshifters". Cyborgs also don't fall under these categories, nor do most normal humans. That's right The Psi Stalker can not sense the non-psychic 'vagabond' because the

Humans don't ping on the 'psi senses', but if the dogs smells (via nose) the plastic and metal, remember, the Robot has already declared himself a full conversion borg (he'd have to do that on the scanner), which has as little as 4 lbs or organic grey matter in hermetically sealed interface units. So he says he's a full conversion borg, he sure smells like a full conversion borg, and the psi-senses are not tingling. The story ends there, everything fits.

Pretty much.
I wouldn't say that it's completely unimportant, but I can't recall it ever coming up in a game.

Which it wouldn't, if you just hallucinated it.

cmon, you believe in lots of things that never come up in game! The hyper-specific idea of a Robot, designed to look like a human who weighs 300 lbs, either in muscle or fat... I doubt that ahs ever come up in game either.

So tell you what, all you have to do is say "I never thought of the idea that animals freak out when magic spells are cast",

and I'll tell you exactly where the rule is (give you a clue, it says "the animal's reaction will always be the same, intense nervousness, jumpiness, hissing, growling...... 1-60% of the time all canines will attack to kill'). So I did, sort of, 'underplay' Lassie's distaste for spellcasting, I thought you'd allow it..... shoulda known better.

[Killer Cyborg]

Because it's not a MAJOR disadvantage unless you spend all your time hanging out in CS territory, which mages typically do not do.

Wait a second... that implies that the below statements said anything about "The CS'..... (Checks the statement)

mages are easy to detect.

People on Rifts Earth are jumpy.
"somethin' funky" often means "shoot to kill!"

nope, you were talking about the people on the whole planet, you said so!

I think you failed your Literacy check.

Granted, they probably wouldn't think you were a robot, but you certainly wouldn't blend.

Correct, the point is to have people 'not think he's a robot', the point is to have a perfect excuse for weighing 300 lbs. I don't understand why your weight diatribe went one word beyond the above statement. I said that 'If the robot looked like a human who would weigh 300 lbs, then no one would find his weight suspicious if he weighed 300 lbs'. You agreed. 'nuff' said here. Fat jokes? He may get. "gunshot", probably not.

He'd get scrutiny, which could lead to his secret being discovered.
He'd get prejudice, which could indeed lead to getting shot.

So a robot's weight isn't any problem because he can just look like a fat guy if he wants to avoid trouble...
But a mage can't avoid CS territory if he wants to avoid trouble?

Almost there, I wish you had stopped here and looked at this statement closely, and had the following occurr to you...

It is a lot easier to make a robot whose weight is not incriminating, than it is to make a Mage who is totally beyond CS influence. The Guy who wants a mage with no CS problem? Has to ask the GM to run the campaign somewhere else on rifts earth..... If the campaign is already running (for example, a mechanoids campaign), then asking the GM to 'move it' because 'mages having problems with CS folks is 'optional', is not going to happen.

Players should always check to see how well their character fits the campaign.
If there's an ongoing campaign that happens to be set in Lazlo, and the player wants to make a CS Grunt, the same thing applies.
(Although in the wilds of the east coast the CS wouldn't be as much of a problem. For one thing, you could kill them without a zillion more showing up. For another, p. 9, "At the GM's discretion, the [CS] soldiers may temporarily join forces with a player group to fight the enemy. Remember, not all CS troops are evil or totally prejudiced agaisnt all non-humans, sorcerers or men of learning. Furthermore, they are good tacticians and understand the necessity of temporarily working with a lesser evil to defeat a common foe." So a mage could fit perfectly well in a Mechanoid campaign, even if he does run into CS troops.)

1. CWC, p. 30, under "City Access Laws.
"These port of entury guards also use a battery of special sensors and optic systems to 'scan' visitors for unnatural signatures and concealed weapons. Those who fall under suspicion are escorted to a holding area by two ISS Inspectors and a pair of Psi-Hounds for a more thorough examination. Such examinations may include a battery of tests, physical examinations and further psionic scanning by high-level Psi-Stalkers, Mind Melters or the most sensitive Psi-Hound."

Now did you ever have PC's Go through this process?

Whenever they went into a large tech city.

This is how it goes.

Robot: On the first scan, No unnatural signitures (As in NONE, this is the point here!), and provided he declares his weapons at the door, no concealed weapons either. If he follows the rules, he doesn't get pulled aside.

Sure.
Psi-Stalker: Well, the guy has absolutely no thoughts or emotions, but that doesn't seem odd.
Tech 1: Hm. He doesn't have a heart-beat or any other vital signs. But nothing really odd about that.
Tech 2: And his skin seems to be composed of plastic, and the x-ray shows that he's got a metal skeleton. Nothing odd about that, though. My cousin Roy has a metal skeleton...

Now if you want to get silly here, we can, for the stickler. "The scanners will tell if there's no organic matter", at which point I say "A full conversion borg can have.... maybe as little 4 lbs of organic matter." Really, at the full conversion level, they're little more than transferred intelligences! So the robot puts a compartment in its body, fills it with 4 lbs of meat, scanners see 99% cybernetic, 1% organic, which is what a full conversion cyborg is. And again, he gets by, and gets treated like a cyborg, whcih isn't really getting by (he needs to sign in his weapons, and doo all the borg stuff), but if he follows the rules, he avoids the roto-rooter.

Right.
Because a lot of full-conversion Borgs have their biological components stored in their compartments.
You're making less sense with ever word.

So these tests, that are designed to stop mages and telepaths, it's really kind of silly to assume that they'll tell '99% Cybernetic' from '100% cybernetic', especially since the CS doesn't care about the difference, but if you make that silly assumption, then adding the '1%' is really not hard.

Where do you get that they're designed to stop mages and telepaths specifically?
They're there to stop anything unusual from getting through.

They do probably stop him however, full conversion cyborgs are not really allowed to run around towns. He's not illegal, but he's not allowed entry.

Assuming that he looks like a Full Conversion Borg, and not just a fat guy.
And that the CS either can't tell the difference between a living brain and some dead meat, or that they don't find it odd for a Borg to have no living parts.
Then yeah, he may get away easy and just be barred entry into the city.

Although, by posting 'The CS' gate procedures, are you saying that the main gates of large CS cities are inevitable obstacles for Robots? CS patrols/troops/psi stalkers, I'll call inevitable obstacles, as they are flying around and you don't know where they are at any given moment (but yout don't think so), but the main gates of large CS cities is not 'avoidable'? Avoiding a big city, or planning around it, not so difficult, but planning around swooping patrols of soldiers, is trickier.

Being barred entry into cities is a problem.
Also, mages can dodge patrols without much problem. Just don't cast spells and don't get within 60'-80' of the dog-boys. Heck, keep your PPE under 80, and you can get closer.
In any case, I thought we were talking about adventuring. Wasn't that your argument for ignoring wilderness locations?
So you're a robot. You're in CS territory. You can't get into any of the cities.
Now what? Where's the adventure?
You could hang out in the Burbs, and dodge dog-boy patrols. You'd be better at it than a mage, because you wouldn't get caught unless they sniffed you or mentally scanned you, but it would still be a threat.

"Psi-Stalkers and Psi-Hounds sniff and sense for the presence of magic, psionics, and the supernatural. Dog Boys and Psi-Stalkers can also detect human-looking D-Bees (80% success ratio) and dragons and other shape-changing creatures (73%+ success ratio)."

If they have an 80% chance to detect human-looking D-Bees with their sniffing/sensing, I'd say that they'd have at least as as good of a chance with a robot. Robots don't smell the same as people. No body odor (other than plastic and such).

'you'd' say they have at least that good of a chance.... or is there any sort of "Actual' discussion of robot detection?

Nope.
Are you saying that robots smell the same as humans?

Robots aren't "magic, psionic, or supernatural', they don't really fall under the category of 'human looking D-Bees", "Dragons", or "shapeshifters".

Actually, most bots with Neural Intelligence are going to be D-bees. The rest are made by ARCHIE.

Cyborgs also don't fall under these categories, nor do most normal humans. That's right The Psi Stalker can not sense the non-psychic 'vagabond' because the Humans don't ping on the 'psi senses', but if the dogs smells (via nose) the plastic and metal, remember, the Robot has already declared himself a full conversion borg (he'd have to do that on the scanner), which has as little as 4 lbs or organic grey matter in hermetically sealed interface units. So he says he's a full conversion borg, he sure smells like a full conversion borg, and the psi-senses are not tingling. The story ends there, everything fits.

IF he also looks like a full-conversion Borg.
And if the people operating the scanners are retarded and blind.

Pretty much.
I wouldn't say that it's completely unimportant, but I can't recall it ever coming up in a game.

Which it wouldn't, if you just hallucinated it.

cmon, you believe in lots of things that never come up in game! The hyper-specific idea of a Robot, designed to look like a human who weighs 300 lbs, either in muscle or fat... I doubt that ahs ever come up in game either.

But it's possible according to the rules.

So tell you what, all you have to do is say "I never thought of the idea that animals freak out when magic spells are cast",

It never really came up in the game.
So why would I think about it?

and I'll tell you exactly where the rule is (give you a clue, it says "the animal's reaction will always be the same, intense nervousness, jumpiness, hissing, growling...... 1-60% of the time all canines will attack to kill'). So I did, sort of, 'underplay' Lassie's distaste for spellcasting, I thought you'd allow it..... shoulda known better.

Eh.
I think that the problem is more that you're taking a passage describing certain animals' reactions to Supernatural Creatures, and you're projecting it onto mages.

[dark brandon]

DamonS: Source for how the animals react to mages.

[dark brandon]

BTW: I lost track, what points are KD and DS trying to make with each other?

[The Beast]

BTW: I lost track, what points are KD and DS trying to make with each other?

I lost it as well...

I think D was all like "Tech has it better than magic. Tech can go anywheres.", and K was all like "Tech has it like magic has it in Chi-town in some places.", and D was like "No they don't, blah, blah, blah.", and K was like "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.", but now it's on 'cause K called D on that "Animals react to magic" thing he threw in there but none of the regular people here know what he's talking about.

I think...

[dark brandon]

BTW: I lost track, what points are KD and DS trying to make with each other?

I lost it as well...

I think D was all like "Tech has it better than magic. Tech can go anywheres.", and K was all like "Tech has it like magic has it in Chi-town in some places.", and D was like "No they don't, blah, blah, blah.", and K was like "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.", but now it's on 'cause K called D on that "Animals react to magic" thing he threw in there but none of the regular people here know what he's talking about.

I think...

Right, gotcha Thank you.

[Killer Cyborg]

BTW: I lost track, what points are KD and DS trying to make with each other?

I lost it as well...

I think D was all like "Tech has it better than magic. Tech can go anywheres.", and K was all like "Tech has it like magic has it in Chi-town in some places.", and D was like "No they don't, blah, blah, blah.", and K was like "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.", but now it's on 'cause K called D on that "Animals react to magic" thing he threw in there but none of the regular people here know what he's talking about.

I think...

Yeah, pretty much.
My overall stance is that the core classes in Rifts are pretty well balanced with each other. Each class has its ups and its downs.
Which is why he keeps bringing up robots, because he doesn't think that robots are balanced well with other classes (they're too powerful).

[DocS]

BTW: I lost track, what points are KD and DS trying to make with each other?

I lost it as well...

I think D was all like "Tech has it better than magic. Tech can go anywheres.", and K was all like "Tech has it like magic has it in Chi-town in some places.", and D was like "No they don't, blah, blah, blah.", and K was like "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.", but now it's on 'cause K called D on that "Animals react to magic" thing he threw in there but none of the regular people here know what he's talking about.

I think...

Yeah, pretty much.
My overall stance is that the core classes in Rifts are pretty well balanced with each other. Each class has its ups and its downs.
Which is why he keeps bringing up robots, because he doesn't think that robots are balanced well with other classes (they're too powerful).

BTW: I lost track, what points are KD and DS trying to make with each other?

I lost it as well...

I think D was all like "Tech has it better than magic. Tech can go anywheres.", and K was all like "Tech has it like magic has it in Chi-town in some places.", and D was like "No they don't, blah, blah, blah.", and K was like "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.", but now it's on 'cause K called D on that "Animals react to magic" thing he threw in there but none of the regular people here know what he's talking about.

I think...

Yeah, pretty much.
My overall stance is that the core classes in Rifts are pretty well balanced with each other. Each class has its ups and its downs.
Which is why he keeps bringing up robots, because he doesn't think that robots are balanced well with other classes (they're too powerful).

The current point of contention...

(on mages) The point of contention is

Me: Mages are easy to detect, and there are many people on the lookout for them with homocidal intention (not just the CS). This is something that, if played as written, is a major problem and makes a lot of their magics not nearly as useful as one would think.
KC: detection and predjudice is not a problem with mages outside of the CS. Most folks don't have much of a problem with them, and detection isn't that much of a problem either, so as long as the Mage stays out of CS territory... it's not a problem.

Where the bots came in.

Me: (from a previous thread), Human-looking robots don't have a difficult time passing for human, especially since no one is actively looking for them and even if their robotics are detected, they can always claim to be a full conversion borg.
KC (from a previous thread): Robots are amazingly easy to detect, even accidentally, and upon detection people will try to kill them.... which is a major disadvantage and point of balance for them.

It was interesting, KC and I all of a sudden, found ourselves arguing opposite points on whether "Character X is 'easy to detect and would people try to kill 'X' if they found him".

However, if one of us said 'well, one class is easier to detect than the other and has a greater animosity problem than the other', their arguments become totally consistent.

So then it became, "which is easier to detect, mages or bots?", and "which has a greater problem with animosity, mages, or bots?".

As for animals and magic/supernatural, Rifts, page 114, animals have 'sense magic' , sense evil', 'sixth sense', always on, at a range of 600 feet, (a looong distance!) and react to it by growling, yowling, and, when confronted with it, running away. Which makes any animal a great sentry to tell if anyone is casting spells within 600 ft, when the Dog freaks out in that special way, you know someone's just cast a spell.

The subject of robots being balanced is an old discussion. I know KC thinks robots are balanced. Neural intelligences are equal to or better than AI's in every way, but they are totally balanced against each other and all other OCC's.

[DocS]

BTW: I lost track, what points are KD and DS trying to make with each other?

I lost it as well...

I think D was all like "Tech has it better than magic. Tech can go anywheres.", and K was all like "Tech has it like magic has it in Chi-town in some places.", and D was like "No they don't, blah, blah, blah.", and K was like "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.", but now it's on 'cause K called D on that "Animals react to magic" thing he threw in there but none of the regular people here know what he's talking about.

I think...

Yeah, pretty much.
My overall stance is that the core classes in Rifts are pretty well balanced with each other. Each class has its ups and its downs.
Which is why he keeps bringing up robots, because he doesn't think that robots are balanced well with other classes (they're too powerful).

BTW: I lost track, what points are KD and DS trying to make with each other?

I lost it as well...

I think D was all like "Tech has it better than magic. Tech can go anywheres.", and K was all like "Tech has it like magic has it in Chi-town in some places.", and D was like "No they don't, blah, blah, blah.", and K was like "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.", but now it's on 'cause K called D on that "Animals react to magic" thing he threw in there but none of the regular people here know what he's talking about.

I think...

Yeah, pretty much.
My overall stance is that the core classes in Rifts are pretty well balanced with each other. Each class has its ups and its downs.
Which is why he keeps bringing up robots, because he doesn't think that robots are balanced well with other classes (they're too powerful).

The current point of contention...

(on mages) The point of contention is

Me: Mages are easy to detect, and there are many people on the lookout for them with homocidal intention (not just the CS). This is something that, if played as written, is a major problem and makes a lot of their magics not nearly as useful as one would think.
KC: detection and predjudice is not a problem with mages outside of the CS. Most folks don't have much of a problem with them, and detection isn't that much of a problem either, so as long as the Mage stays out of CS territory... it's not a problem.

Where the bots came in.

Me: (from a previous thread), Human-looking robots don't have a difficult time passing for human, especially since no one is actively looking for them and even if their robotics are detected, they can always claim to be a full conversion borg.
KC (from a previous thread): Robots are amazingly easy to detect, even accidentally, and upon detection people will try to kill them.... which is a major disadvantage and point of balance for them.

It was interesting, KC and I all of a sudden, found ourselves arguing opposite points on whether "Character X is 'easy to detect and would people try to kill 'X' if they found him".

However, if one of us said 'well, one class is easier to detect than the other and has a greater animosity problem than the other', their arguments become totally consistent.

So then it became, "which is easier to detect, mages or bots?", and "which has a greater problem with animosity, mages, or bots?".

As for animals and magic/supernatural, Rifts, page 114, animals have 'sense magic' , sense evil', 'sixth sense', always on, at a range of 600 feet, (a looong distance!) and react to it by growling, yowling, and, when confronted with it, running away. Which makes any animal a great sentry to tell if anyone is casting spells within 600 ft, when the Dog freaks out in that special way, you know someone's just cast a spell.

The subject of robots being balanced is an old discussion. I know KC thinks robots are balanced. Neural intelligences are equal to or better than AI's in every way, but they are totally balanced against each other and all other OCC's.

[Killer Cyborg]

BTW: I lost track, what points are KD and DS trying to make with each other?

I lost it as well...

I think D was all like "Tech has it better than magic. Tech can go anywheres.", and K was all like "Tech has it like magic has it in Chi-town in some places.", and D was like "No they don't, blah, blah, blah.", and K was like "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.", but now it's on 'cause K called D on that "Animals react to magic" thing he threw in there but none of the regular people here know what he's talking about.

I think...

Yeah, pretty much.
My overall stance is that the core classes in Rifts are pretty well balanced with each other. Each class has its ups and its downs.
Which is why he keeps bringing up robots, because he doesn't think that robots are balanced well with other classes (they're too powerful).

BTW: I lost track, what points are KD and DS trying to make with each other?

I lost it as well...

I think D was all like "Tech has it better than magic. Tech can go anywheres.", and K was all like "Tech has it like magic has it in Chi-town in some places.", and D was like "No they don't, blah, blah, blah.", and K was like "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.", but now it's on 'cause K called D on that "Animals react to magic" thing he threw in there but none of the regular people here know what he's talking about.

I think...

Yeah, pretty much.
My overall stance is that the core classes in Rifts are pretty well balanced with each other. Each class has its ups and its downs.
Which is why he keeps bringing up robots, because he doesn't think that robots are balanced well with other classes (they're too powerful).

The current point of contention...

(on mages) The point of contention is

Me: Mages are easy to detect, and there are many people on the lookout for them with homocidal intention (not just the CS). This is something that, if played as written, is a major problem and makes a lot of their magics not nearly as useful as one would think.
KC: detection and predjudice is not a problem with mages outside of the CS. Most folks don't have much of a problem with them, and detection isn't that much of a problem either, so as long as the Mage stays out of CS territory... it's not a problem.

Where the bots came in.

Me: (from a previous thread), Human-looking robots don't have a difficult time passing for human, especially since no one is actively looking for them and even if their robotics are detected, they can always claim to be a full conversion borg.
KC (from a previous thread): Robots are amazingly easy to detect, even accidentally, and upon detection people will try to kill them.... which is a major disadvantage and point of balance for them.

It was interesting, KC and I all of a sudden, found ourselves arguing opposite points on whether "Character X is 'easy to detect and would people try to kill 'X' if they found him".

However, if one of us said 'well, one class is easier to detect than the other and has a greater animosity problem than the other', their arguments become totally consistent.

So then it became, "which is easier to detect, mages or bots?", and "which has a greater problem with animosity, mages, or bots?".

Not a bad summary, actually.

As for animals and magic/supernatural, Rifts, page 114, animals have 'sense magic' , sense evil', 'sixth sense', always on, at a range of 600 feet, (a looong distance!) and react to it by growling, yowling, and, when confronted with it, running away. Which makes any animal a great sentry to tell if anyone is casting spells within 600 ft, when the Dog freaks out in that special way, you know someone's just cast a spell.

1. Dogs, Cats, and Horses have those powers; not just any animal.
2. I'm not sure that this passage refers to general spellcasting, although I'll admit that a strict interpretation would indeed apply to mages.
If so, then it's odd that Mystics often have horses for their starting "vehicle". But then again, there are stranger glitches in the game.
This is officially going on my list of questions to ask Kevin.

The subject of robots being balanced is an old discussion. I know KC thinks robots are balanced. Neural intelligences are equal to or better than AI's in every way, but they are totally balanced against each other and all other OCC's.

The only advantage that a Robot Intelligence Bot has over Neural is that it can be made by the CS, Triax, Northern Gun, or other such native industries. A Neural Intelligence is either an alien or created by Archie. While being local can be an advantage when it comes to repairs and such, it's not that big of a deal. I'll admit that Neural Bots are a bit better than Robot Intelligence.
Robot Drones aren't really suitable for player uses, so the fact that they're drastically inferior doesn't really matter.
Transferred Intelligence Bots are about equal with Robot and Neural Intelligence Bots.