New Game Question

[The Beast]

If you were starting a new Rifts game, with people who haven't played it before, and were planning to start everyone off in the CS military, would you give them the correct back-story to Rifts Earth, or would you give the CS version of history and slowly open the players' eyes to the truth?

[Jesterzzn]

That could be interesting. If you try it, let us know how it goes.

[cornholioprime]

If you were starting a new Rifts game, with people who haven't played it before, and were planning to start everyone off in the CS military, would you give them the correct back-story to Rifts Earth, or would you give the CS version of history and slowly open the players' eyes to the truth?

DEFINITELY the CS's version of The Way It Is.

New Recruits start off that way in Real Life and you should start these guys off in that manner, too.

Of course, before you spring the horrible, horrible truth on them...let them develop pro-CS fanaticism to a level that Forum Member "Dead Boy" posesses ...then.....THEN.....promote them to some MOS where they have to go out into the world and learn that D-Bees are just as 'human" as everybody else. Then have an evil CS Commander order them to gun down the even cuter, defenseless D-Bee children of a cute D-Bee race.

'Cause it's good to be evil like that.

[Natasha]

No reason to tell them otherwise is there?

[The Beast]

From what I gathered tonight, they've played PFRPG before, but given Rifts only a glance, so most of the players might not know much about the CS. Unfortunately three players have RL getting in the way in a few weeks, so I'll need to dig up some more for what I want to do.

I'd like to put togeather a custom-made SF team, and these are the OCCs I'd like to have in the group:

Pilot (Fly-Boy style I guess)
Combination scout/sniper
Demolitions expert
Heavy weapons expert (might get combined with demo guy if I lose players)
Psi-stalker or Dog Boy (not decided)
Combination communications/computer expert (not really sure about this one though)

Now if I end up lossing players, I figure I can lose the pilot completely, NPC the Dog Boy, and combine the two I mentioned. I'm just not sure if what I have is a good enough mix for most situations.

[Jerell]

If I were to make an SF team, I'd deffenently want an 18 Delta (SF medic) as well. Drop the demo-expert and give everyone general demolition skills. Commo expert and long range radio carrier is good to have, now the CS just needs to get a lot of indirect artillery, the "king of the battlefield."


- Just my suggestions. Take them or leave as you will

[Killer Cyborg]

If you were starting a new Rifts game, with people who haven't played it before, and were planning to start everyone off in the CS military, would you give them the correct back-story to Rifts Earth, or would you give the CS version of history and slowly open the players' eyes to the truth?

Definitely the CS version.

And start them off as actual flat-out heroes, going on missions that are unquestionable in their integrity.
Have them killing horrible monsters that actually are horrible monsters.
Then start slipping in monsters that they're told are horrible, but that aren't.

See if you can do it so subtly that they're slaughtering D-Bee children before they catch on.

[The Beast]

If you were starting a new Rifts game, with people who haven't played it before, and were planning to start everyone off in the CS military, would you give them the correct back-story to Rifts Earth, or would you give the CS version of history and slowly open the players' eyes to the truth?

Definitely the CS version.

And start them off as actual flat-out heroes, going on missions that are unquestionable in their integrity.
Have them killing horrible monsters that actually are horrible monsters.
Then start slipping in monsters that they're told are horrible, but that aren't.

See if you can do it so subtly that they're slaughtering D-Bee children before they catch on.

Oh yeah, they'd start out on sewer patrol in the Burb's first, cleaning up stuff down there. Then I was thinking a few escort and bounty hunter-type missions (Guard this convoy to Lonestar, after that, there's this brodkill war band we want removed).

I'm also thinking of having the LT in charge of them loyal to the CS, but the CO in charge disagrees with most of the policies. This way at whatever point they finally decide to either stay with or turn against the CS they'll still have someone in charge of them.

[Armorlord]

Definitely the CS version, I'm a big fan of restricting out of character information, means they have to figure out the secrets and mysteries on their own.
Unfortunately, I can't even get my current group to pretend to like the CS, just the phrases 'human supremacist' and 'literacy banned' were enough to set them foaming at the mouth.

Anti-Literacy you'll have to play carefully to avoid tipping your hand, since for the most part they won't be able to read play it close to the chest with commanders and their translators simply identifying books as 'contraband', 'inhuman/alien-lover propaganda', 'restricted materials', etc. Outright saying books and literacy are banned tends to upset the sensibilities of book-lovin' players. While I don't normally use GM-PCs, this would be a good situation to have a NPC commanding officer close to them, helping direct them in CS approved manners. The idea to ease them into slowly worse and worse actions while still being painted as heroes by the superiors and Coalition States is a great one, wish I could've pulled that off in mine.

Dog boys aren't treated too badly, in fact pretty well even compared to treatment of humans not of the Coalition States. They are man's best friend, and that's basically how both ends of the equation relate to each other. CS Humans treat good dog boys as favored guard dogs and attack dogs, just a bit smarter and more useful- just a tiny upgrade to help them to help humanity. Obedient dog boys see humans annd the CS as their alpha leaders and the ones they strive to protect and serve as much as their ancestors did. The bad ones.. well, let's just say that Ol' Yeller is definitely something they are never allowed to see, maybe an edited version that ends sooner. Or if merely questionable but otherwise good, sent back for reeducation.

[Lenwen]

I would also agree to show them the *Truth* as told by the Coalition States. They are after all CS soilders an as such they probably JUST graduated how many schools of Propaganda about how Human the CS really is an how Staunch they are for the Human race as protectors

I also like the way it was mentioned above about slowly putting Dbees in the mix slowly to them how twisted the Cs *can* be ..

How ever if your going to build your own special forces fire team you have to know that special forces fire teams as operated by current Us army are all Cross trained to do each others job so they all have roughly the same skill sets with a spattering of somethin the other's dont have . I.E. each will have basic medic , com , all would be able to know roughly the demo skill , all will be able to use heavey as well as small weapons , I'm guessing in the Rifts world most would also be able to have Pilot as a skill as well ..

-Lenwen.

[Nikoli]

While you are right about US training. The CS is patterened moreso after early 40's traiing standards. You spend all day every day of your advanced training learning how to do one thing very well. Remember these guys don't have the benefit of the basic education that US soldiers have prior to enlistment the basics of anything other than "This is my rifle, this is my gun" are going to take longer to drill in.

[Dead Boy]

If you were starting a new Rifts game, with people who haven't played it before, and were planning to start everyone off in the CS military, would you give them the correct back-story to Rifts Earth, or would you give the CS version of history and slowly open the players' eyes to the truth?

Ya got to start off the the CS perspective and let them discover how things actually are on their own. Could be fun to see how long they stick with the propaganda dogma, especially if you as the GM keep on enforcing it through some solid, charismatic CS NPCs who can be viewed by them as the good guys and a heroes to aspire to become. Once they're into the the party line, then you can start introducing story elements that may make them question the whole "right/wrong" and "good/evil" thing.

As long as you aren't too heavy handed with it, some of their reactions might surprise you. Being part of "the last, best hope for mankind" is a powerful thing. They just may come to the conclusion that some of the things they end up doing are necessary evils for the better good.

[The Beast]

Okay, so now the list of MOSs to be made are:

Pilot
Combination scout/sniper
Demolitions expert
Heavy weapons expert
Psi-stalker or Dog Boy (which would be better?)
Combination communications/computer expert
Field Medic
and I'm now also thinking a profesional thief to help them get into places if the need arises (or hope at least one player decides to take those skills).

I also have a new question. If you, as a GM want players to have specific skills, force them to take it at the cost of other skills, or do you give them it for free? If the later, would the skills be OCC skills, or OCC related skills?

[Jesterzzn]

I just wonder if there aren't certain places like the cantina on Tattooine where dog boys are treated like droids as the owner/proprietor refuses to serve "their" kind.

Probably, but most Dogboys and definitely the vast majority that are part of CS dog packs are of the opinion they are supposed to be treated like the help. They love their masters (commanding officers) just like your dogs love you -- unquestioningly.

[Library Ogre]

Yeah, one of the reasons I like ferals. They got intelligence, and could get their own food for a change and yet the humans still expect them to treat them as Gods? But sometimes I draw a little too much from my totem.

CS humans might, but non-CS humans probably would not. Non-CS humans would have one of three reactions:

1) "Dog Boys. They must be on the run from the Coalition."
2) "Dog Boys. They must be spies for the Coalition."
3) "Those D-Bees look just like dogs."

Then they'll treat them as appropriate for Coalition traitors, Coalition loyalists, or D-bees, depending on their assumptions.

[Library Ogre]

And, of course, wolfen are frequently mistaken for Wolf Dog Boys.

[The Galactus Kid]

...which I don't understand because wolfen are HUGE.

[Natasha]

...which I don't understand because wolfen are HUGE.

What you think you see and what you actually see are not always the same, even to those trained to be observant. If you never seen a wolfen, it's natural to think dog boy (if you even know about them, which many probably wouldn't).

[Library Ogre]

...which I don't understand because wolfen are HUGE.

Smallish wolfen, largish wolf dog boy... and you'd be amazed at how much people over-estimate my height, and I'm only 6'5".

[Jesterzzn]

The key is that wolfen look like humanoid wolves which the CS sometimes makes as a flavor of dog boys.

True, but they are the rarest of flavors since wolves tend to be independent thinkers (which is baaaad in a CS dogpack).

[Jerell]

If you were starting a new Rifts game, with people who haven't played it before, and were planning to start everyone off in the CS military, would you give them the correct back-story to Rifts Earth, or would you give the CS version of history and slowly open the players' eyes to the truth?

Ya got to start off the the CS perspective and let them discover how things actually are on their own. Could be fun to see how long they stick with the propaganda dogma, especially if you as the GM keep on enforcing it through some solid, charismatic CS NPCs who can be viewed by them as the good guys and a heroes to aspire to become. Once they're into the the party line, then you can start introducing story elements that may make them question the whole "right/wrong" and "good/evil" thing.

As long as you aren't too heavy handed with it, some of their reactions might surprise you. Being part of "the last, best hope for mankind" is a powerful thing. They just may come to the conclusion that some of the things they end up doing are necessary evils for the better good.

Yes, indeed. It should be interesting to find out who thinks, "Xenos/D-bees are people too," and who thinks that humanity is soley entitled to earth. They could turn out to be like some of the warriors on the first crusade. Don't learn about the enemy, just assume they are sub-human and exterminate them. It's amazing what people will do given a certain set of beliefs and the right motivation. In the generally un-enlightened Rifts age, would think that is quite possible, and maybe even often the case. Especially considering the propaganda. The CS just puts out a story every day or so about a D-bee brutally killing a human citizen somewhere on their version of CNN and no one in the CS would even question it I'm sure. Unless the characters become part of a story that is stretched... That could be really interesting as well. She how they like to be used as propaganda down the road... That I would think, would be much more touchy than even just doing the nessecary evils out of the spotlight. You may want to keep that thought for after they've decided how they feel about things...

I hope you keep us apprised of how this campaign developes, I'm quite interested to see how things go with players who are new to the game. My group of friends started off playing way back, but they had all read about and disliked the coalition. Only recently have I even come to reguard them truely as humanity's best hope for survival.

[The Beast]

Maybe with Skelebots.

[The Beast]

Is there any "Rouge" MOS in any of the books? I almost have the team completly half-built, but I need someone made for breaking into or out of areas quietly, and the CS doesn't seem to have an MOS for that.

[The Galactus Kid]

Use the C.S. Military Specialist and take a lot of espionage skills. Either that or use a C.S. commando or Nautical Specialist a.k.a Seal.

[Jesterzzn]

Suicide bombers, I wonder how long till the CS tries the tactic?

Never. The CS looks at Dogboys in the same way that we look at military and police dogs. Do you think the US military is going to start using dogs as smart-bombs? Of course not, and neither would the CS use Dogboys in such a manner. First, it would outrage the populace that sees the Dogboys as their protectors. Second, its a colossal waste of training and money. Third, the Dogboys are fully capable of operating guided missile systems, so there is really no need to strap the bombs to them.

[The Beast]

Use the C.S. Military Specialist and take a lot of espionage skills. Either that or use a C.S. commando or Nautical Specialist a.k.a Seal.

What I decided to do was to count all the MOS skills the Tech Officers get, to see what the average was, and then gave the rogue the same amount of skills. I think it's a good mix.

[The Beast]

Just thought of something here.

I'm gonna run them through the RDF Accelerated Training Program book, with the CS conversions where needed. I've finished mapping a training base/area next to the ruins of Keokuk, Iowa. I'm planning to have them compete against another group while training. Toward the end of the training missions I'm going to eliminate the other team by having a monster eat them, then the PCs run into it.

But I need a monster. Preferably something somewhat slow (so the PCs can get back to the base and get MD weapons), amphibious, and tough. Any suggestions?

[Jesterzzn]

Maybe a Veggie Dino? The CS could import them from Dino Swamp and house them near the training facility and one of them gets loose.

[The Beast]

I don't have anything past the Xitixix book though, except for Madhaven, Hades, Naruni 2, and the Rifters.

Also does a veggie dino eat people?

[Jesterzzn]

I don't have anything past the Xitixix book though, except for Madhaven, Hades, Naruni 2, and the Rifters.

Also does a veggie dino eat people?

Probably not, but it definately might kill them.

[The Beast]

I'm gonna use the wraith from WB7.

[The Beast]

No, it'll be set in North America, it's just that the training base is near the Mississippi river.

[Jesterzzn]

Suicide bombers, I wonder how long till the CS tries the tactic?

Never. The CS looks at Dogboys in the same way that we look at military and police dogs. Do you think the US military is going to start using dogs as smart-bombs? Of course not, and neither would the CS use Dogboys in such a manner. First, it would outrage the populace that sees the Dogboys as their protectors. Second, its a colossal waste of training and money. Third, the Dogboys are fully capable of operating guided missile systems, so there is really no need to strap the bombs to them.

You're forgetting that in the CS the people see and hear about more or less what Joe Prosek II wants them to see. So if they decide to do this on suppress media coverage it will be done. Again, the CS considers it's dog boys animals. Wasting their lives to save human ones is something they will do and not even blink.

They might send them on missions where death is almost assured, but they would not send them to deliberately kill themselves. At least not enmasse. And yes, they consider them animals, but not everyone in the CS is some diabolical machiavellian dictator like Prosek. Most people in the CS love the dogboys, and that includes most CS military personnel.

[The Beast]

Suicide bombers, I wonder how long till the CS tries the tactic?

Never. The CS looks at Dogboys in the same way that we look at military and police dogs. Do you think the US military is going to start using dogs as smart-bombs? Of course not, and neither would the CS use Dogboys in such a manner. First, it would outrage the populace that sees the Dogboys as their protectors. Second, its a colossal waste of training and money. Third, the Dogboys are fully capable of operating guided missile systems, so there is really no need to strap the bombs to them.

You're forgetting that in the CS the people see and hear about more or less what Joe Prosek II wants them to see. So if they decide to do this on suppress media coverage it will be done. Again, the CS considers it's dog boys animals. Wasting their lives to save human ones is something they will do and not even blink.

They might send them on missions where death is almost assured, but they would not send them to deliberately kill themselves. At least not enmasse. And yes, they consider them animals, but not everyone in the CS is some diabolical machiavellian dictator like Prosek. Most people in the CS love the dogboys, and that includes most CS military personnel.

And chances are even Prosek wouldn't allow such an order to be given. That would be one less Dog Boy to take a bullet for a human.

[Library Ogre]

Skelebots can be just rebuilt it's true. But I can see them using dog boys for this. The CS considers them only animals after all.

Would you blow up your dog? You may be a bad example, but would the average person blow up their dog, especially when there's a viable alternative in the form of a piece of equipment?

Realize, to the CS, Dog Boys are "just dogs", but they're still dogs. The human-dog connection mentioned in Lone Star goes both ways... people get attached to their dogs. Hell, people get hugely attached to their dogs now, and they can't talk, and damn few of those dogs will ever take a bullet for their masters. Calling them "just dogs" emphasizes that they are not human, and not as valuable as a human, but they're more valuable than a skelebot, at least to most of the people they serve with, if not a balance sheet.

[Jerell]

I really don't ever see the CS using dog boys as suicide bombers. I think you'd be more likely to see dead boys binzai charge before you see 'divine wind' dog boy attacks.

Are you implying that the CS will also send their wives out as bombers soon?

Just kidding, cheers mate.

[Library Ogre]

Humans have done many evil and nasty things to their dog, even in America. The CS ultimately views their dog boys as having less value than humans and probably even Psi-Stalkers. Men kick and beat their dogs as well as their wives, both of these are living creatures that they profess to love. If it can be done quietly in a manner that will not attract too much media it will be done. Heck, if they spin it right, the dog boys will even look like heroes sacrificing themselves for the good of the Coalition as loyal citizens, when in all actuality they were sent in full well knowing that that they were going to be killed. Who knows? Maybe they'll take a page out of the Japanese play book of WW2 and stage kamikaze style suicide bombings. Those pilots died happily for the glory of their Emperor, and wouldn't dog boys do the same?

Yes, but this is not the norm. Part of the reason stories of animal cruelty make the news is because they are viewed as cruelty, not as how things should be. Yes, the Dog Boys are viewed as having less value than humans or psi-stalkers. To the CS mind, they're dogs. They're less valuable than people, even mutant people like psi-stalkers. However, that doesn't mean that they're valuable, and it doesn't mean that the people in the field will automatically go along with plans to suicide the dogs.

[Library Ogre]

A human military officer with dog boy troops comes across something big, nasty and almost certain to kill him and the other human soldiers. What does he do? He sends the dog boys to distract the monster and get eaten and then withdraws to get a SAMAS team or something more powerful to deal with it. I imagine this would be acceptable to the CS. But how is it different then sending them in strapped with explosives to blow themselves up? In both cases they are being sacrificed to save human lives with no regard to the lives of the dog boys.

One is a tactical decision. The other is a strategic one. A tactical decision to sacrifice dogs to save humans is regrettable, but necessary to preserve human life. Making a strategy around blowing up dog boys is inhumane, except in extreme circumstances.

[The Beast]

A human military officer with dog boy troops comes across something big, nasty and almost certain to kill him and the other human soldiers. What does he do? He sends the dog boys to distract the monster and get eaten and then withdraws to get a SAMAS team or something more powerful to deal with it. I imagine this would be acceptable to the CS. But how is it different then sending them in strapped with explosives to blow themselves up? In both cases they are being sacrificed to save human lives with no regard to the lives of the dog boys.

Because in the first example there's still a chance that the Dog Boys survive to fight another day. Also the Dog Boys are excellent supernatural detectors. Sending them out as suicide bombers would negate the very reason they were made in the first place.

[Library Ogre]

A human military officer with dog boy troops comes across something big, nasty and almost certain to kill him and the other human soldiers. What does he do? He sends the dog boys to distract the monster and get eaten and then withdraws to get a SAMAS team or something more powerful to deal with it. I imagine this would be acceptable to the CS. But how is it different then sending them in strapped with explosives to blow themselves up? In both cases they are being sacrificed to save human lives with no regard to the lives of the dog boys.

One is a tactical decision. The other is a strategic one. A tactical decision to sacrifice dogs to save humans is regrettable, but necessary to preserve human life. Making a strategy around blowing up dog boys is inhumane, except in extreme circumstances.

What extreme circumstances might you agree with me?

I'm not sure what I'd be agreeing with. Would an individual CS commander sacrifice Dog Boys above human troops? Yes. But he'd also sacrifice skelebots ahead of Dog Boys. Physically, a skelebot is going to last longer than a dog boy (even a dog boy in heavy armor), and the only reason to prefer dog boys if you have both is if you need to use a psychic to combat the threat. If you don't have both... well, at least take comfort in the fact that the dog boys are happy to protect their human masters.

As a strategy, using dog boys as suicide bombers is poor. A robot will never hesitate to destroy itself if programmed to do so, can be designed with the explosives inside, move far faster than a dog boy, and be programmed with stealth skills... and be produced a lot faster than Dog Boys, which requires at least 2 years to reach physical maturity.

[Library Ogre]

canines can be stealthy when it suits them. just because you have folks with big dogs in their yards as an obvious deterrent does not mean that dog is so large that stealth is impossible. Especially when you up the intelligence factor.

Yes, but compare the stealth of a 1st level Dog Boy to a just-programmed robot. Robot will have in the 80s or 90s for prowl. Dog boy will have in the 40s. Advantage robot.

And, again, we're talking about a suicide mission. Speed can trump stealth, but stealthy speed is where the robot will win.

[Library Ogre]

Stealth can help you survive a suicide mission. Like blowing something up in enemy territory where they're expecting you to get caught and killed.

Again, I'm not arguing that dogs are incapable of stealth but that, if they're going to make a strategy out of kamikazing things, they're going to turn to robots, because they're more effective at it than dogs.

[The Beast]

Stealth can help you survive a suicide mission. Like blowing something up in enemy territory where they're expecting you to get caught and killed.

Again, I'm not arguing that dogs are incapable of stealth but that, if they're going to make a strategy out of kamikazing things, they're going to turn to robots, because they're more effective at it than dogs.

And the Dog Boys are made for detecting the supernatural.

[Library Ogre]

Stealth can help you survive a suicide mission. Like blowing something up in enemy territory where they're expecting you to get caught and killed.

Again, I'm not arguing that dogs are incapable of stealth but that, if they're going to make a strategy out of kamikazing things, they're going to turn to robots, because they're more effective at it than dogs.

And the Dog Boys are made for detecting the supernatural.

And robots can have a host of sensors that can blow those out of the water... thermo, radar (passive and active), wide band hearing, ultraviolet, electromagnetic.

Again, if you're going to make a strategy (that is, a long-term plan based around sending something to its explosive death, as opposed to a tactic, which would be a plan developed for short-term gains), it makes more sense to use a robot, which will do precisely what you tell it, can be developed to spec, and be produced in larger numbers, faster. Using a mutant animal has a few advantages, but they're usually overwhelmed by the fact that even the most loyal mutant animal has a survival instinct, is squishy, and isn't custom-designed for the task you're giving it.

[csbioborg]

If you were starting a new Rifts game, with people who haven't played it before, and were planning to start everyone off in the CS military, would you give them the correct back-story to Rifts Earth, or would you give the CS version of history and slowly open the players' eyes to the truth?

DEFINITELY the CS's version of The Way It Is.

New Recruits start off that way in Real Life and you should start these guys off in that manner, too.

Of course, before you spring the horrible, horrible truth on them...let them develop pro-CS fanaticism to a level that Forum Member "Dead Boy" posesses ...then.....THEN.....promote them to some MOS where they have to go out into the world and learn that D-Bees are just as 'human" as everybody else. Then have an evil CS Commander order them to gun down the even cuter, defenseless D-Bee children of a cute D-Bee race.

'Cause it's good to be evil like that.

Aye mate that defenseless child scenario was in my campaign to. By sparing her they allowed a conduit to the rUINOUS pOWERS that plaugued mankind. Many were killed by the this rift that the yoiung shifter wild created. Sickened by the death thier lack of faith in the teachiings of the
C.S. they vowed they would never again succumb to the hubris of supplmenting there own judgement for that of General Dunhill

[Jerell]

Devious. I like it all around.

If I was to ever GM rifts I think I would use something very similar to that.

Again, faith in humanity and allegiance to the Emperor is the way to go, if you want Rifts earth back in the hands of humans that is.