Powers that stay on vs APS-Any

[Reagren Wright]

Okay let say you possess APS-Ice and the minor power Impervious to
fire and heat. Does this mean you still take double damage from fire
and heat attacks while in Ice form, or are you still immune while in
ice form. I know it sounds like a GM question, but a collective message
board agreement would go along way to satify a long standing argument
between myself and others.

[sinestus]

personally, i'm a big believer that powers have flaws for a reason...

and thus counteracting the flaw (APS Ice + Imp Fire/Heat) should have some other side effect that will act as a hindrance to the character... (last time i had something like this in game it was a villain who's body temperature always reflected their APS Ice nature and thus was easilly identified with thermal scopes, AND while in APS Ice form would constantly cause a freezing affect to anything they were in physical contact with...)

otherwise, I'd say (if the player doesn't want some kind of other hindrance) then the Imp to Fire/Heat turns off at transformation. (as their normal body, the one impervious, is discarded for a more powerful one made of ice...)

[NMI]

personally, i'm a big believer that powers have flaws for a reason...

and thus counteracting the flaw (APS Ice + Imp Fire/Heat) should have some other side effect that will act as a hindrance to the character... (last time i had something like this in game it was a villain who's body temperature always reflected their APS Ice nature and thus was easilly identified with thermal scopes, AND while in APS Ice form would constantly cause a freezing affect to anything they were in physical contact with...)

otherwise, I'd say (if the player doesn't want some kind of other hindrance) then the Imp to Fire/Heat turns off at transformation. (as their normal body, the one impervious, is discarded for a more powerful one made of ice...)

I agree.

[Tinker Dragoon]

There's nothing I can find in the rules to disallow the combo, but all the same I don't like combos that negate penalties. Then again, this particular combination could be thematically justifiable (perhaps the character's powers work by absorbing heat from the surroundings, for example).

Rather than simply disallow the combination, I would impose other penalities, like giving the character a sluggish metabolism, a weakness to salt, an unhealthy attraction to heat sources, the "slow and ponderous" Mega Vulnerability, etc.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yes, if you have impervious to fire and heat, you take no damage even in APS ice form.

Now, as was previously mentioned, some people think it's "cheesy", but that dosnt' mean it's not 100% legal. and in fact, could be a cool character concept.

[NMI]

Yes, if you have impervious to fire and heat, you take no damage even in APS ice form.

Now, as was previously mentioned, some people think it's "cheesy", but that dosnt' mean it's not 100% legal. and in fact, could be a cool character concept.

Pun intended?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Yes, if you have impervious to fire and heat, you take no damage even in APS ice form.

Now, as was previously mentioned, some people think it's "cheesy", but that dosnt' mean it's not 100% legal. and in fact, could be a cool character concept.

Pun intended?

Nope!

[knightgoblin]

I agree that it sounds like a cool character concept. Heroes Unlimited rings to me as a anything is possible universe. This question of invulnerable to heat and fire while being in ice form reminds me of the burning bush Moses witnessed, it was burning but did not burn. Science is changing every day; just look at poor Pluto no longer a planet, that’s bound to weird out some people.

And for goodness sake this power combo still pales in comparison to invulnerability.

I also believe that invulnerable characters can be challenged quit often. A good example is Juggernaut verses the X-Men, he may be invulnerable but most of the time by the end of the comic he’s holding the short stick.

[acreRake]

The answer is yes, it would work (you would still be impervious to fire while in ice form).*

*This may not apply in your particular game, if the GM has her own ideas about it.

[Reagren Wright]

Thanks for the replies folks. Most seem to agree the combo can exist
but there should be some kind of penalty or weakness. I can go along with that.

[csyphrett]

No there shouldn't be a penalty. Some Gms apply a penalty because they want to but there is no reason to apply one.

Being Impervious to fire is not going to protect your ice armor.

CES

[AzathothXy]

No there shouldn't be a penalty. Some Gms apply a penalty because they want to but there is no reason to apply one.

Being Impervious to fire is not going to protect your ice armor.

CES

That's my take. Fire attacks would deplete your APS:Ice SDC. Once that SDC was gone the fire would not damage your base SDC.

[KillWatch]

I believe that the power should plug the hole, like you are so cold that the air around you doesn't even get that hot. However I could also see the impervioius to fire bit only working while in ice form. But the powers should be used to their effects, just be creative with it

[Reagren Wright]

Looking over PU1 and PU3, Carmen suggest you actually become
the substance you APS. While the main book suggest APS-Electricity,
Fire, and Ice coat a person (like a suit of armor). So saying the ice is not
impervious to fire, but the body is would make sense. But if the being
is turning into air, gel, liquid, etc then the resistance should be there
as well. However, fire is suppost to melt ice, so maybe instead of
double damage it does regular damage instead?

[KillWatch]

why not let the power do it's thing?

[Rahmota]

I have to say that I use that both powers do work. Like Nekira said it may be cheesy but it is legal. (Now there's a phrase that gets plenty of mileage) It just means that if you want to hurt that person you have to get creative.

Ok so Ice boy is now not going to be hurt with your flame throwing minions attacks, so you bring out the fully automatic nailgun shooting minions and icepick him to death.

As for if they are a crunchy shell or through and through that material. I use they are through and through the material (i should have mentioned that up in the pregnancy one) but have not exactly come up with a definitive reason why they are still alive when they transform other than just because.

[KillWatch]

I've always played it as if they were solid material X just like APS Air or water, etc. They don't need to breath or eat until they come out of that form

[csyphrett]

They do become solid ice according to the power description. Applying Impervious to fire to their transformed state does make the character a mini juggernaut as long as they are ice.

Still a lot of things do still hurt this character, and are common enough to run into in a game.
CES

[Blight]

So he can't be hurt by fire just ram him with a large truck (if you have that piloting skill). I have found hitting a villain with a fast moving cement truck usual handles the problem.

[KillWatch]

I see a trend in at least this game where people like to whittle powers down. The most potent example is Invulnerability wher now it is about as useful as the D&D spell, which is nearly nil

[Daniel Stoker]

How in invulnerability useless?


Daniel Stoker

[KillWatch]

because everyone and their cousin that you are going to fight has soemthing that can hurt you. It use to be magic some psionics, poisons, gases were needed. (which was enough) but now since everyone seems to have supernatural PS Invulnerability is much like the spell in D&D where you can only be hurt by magical weapons the probelm is everyone has at least a +1 dagger.

Invulnerability started out as the power to have much sought after because few things could hurt you. But some people thought is was too tough and started to scale it back. And now it's been scaled back people are wondering hey I think we need a power that protects you from X and now we have all thes major and minor powers filling in for exactly what Invulnerability USE to do.

So invulnerability is good agaisnt you type 1 2 and 3 thugs but anyone worth their tights can now hurt you. it really reminds me of what the comics do to their juggernaughts that can't be beaten, weaken them give them a chink in the armor yeah hey; Juggernaught is now a good guy but even after he defeated Cytorrak he is weaker to give him "symapthy" I guess and show he can be hurt, Or like Gladiator, let's make the Superman Clone vulnerable to digs at his confidence... whatever

Invulnerability: Can be hit by a building and walk away. No one but a TRUE supernatural being (devils demons angels, gods) should be able to hurt him despite whatever strength they have. Magic and Psionics should only do half damage. Chi powers shouldn't affect him whatsoever (in terms of damage)

[Daniel Stoker]

because everyone and their cousin that you are going to fight has soemthing that can hurt you. It use to be magic some psionics, poisons, gases were needed. (which was enough) but now since everyone seems to have supernatural PS Invulnerability is much like the spell in D&D where you can only be hurt by magical weapons the probelm is everyone has at least a +1 dagger.

They do? None of my players took that power in my last game.

Invulnerability started out as the power to have much sought after because few things could hurt you. But some people thought is was too tough and started to scale it back. And now it's been scaled back people are wondering hey I think we need a power that protects you from X and now we have all thes major and minor powers filling in for exactly what Invulnerability USE to do.

So invulnerability is good agaisnt you type 1 2 and 3 thugs but anyone worth their tights can now hurt you. it really reminds me of what the comics do to their juggernaughts that can't be beaten, weaken them give them a chink in the armor yeah hey; Juggernaught is now a good guy but even after he defeated Cytorrak he is weaker to give him "symapthy" I guess and show he can be hurt, Or like Gladiator, let's make the Superman Clone vulnerable to digs at his confidence... whatever

And I disagree, I like that magic and Chi are backdoor methods of hurting the character. I also like the fact that my heroes with APS: Fire, CEF: Air, APS: Stone, & Darkness Control had to really work to find ways to slow my crazy villian Kaptain Khaos!

Invulnerability: Can be hit by a building and walk away. No one but a TRUE supernatural being (devils demons angels, gods) should be able to hurt him despite whatever strength they have. Magic and Psionics should only do half damage. Chi powers shouldn't affect him whatsoever (in terms of damage)

Ok... and an invulnerable character could get hit by a building and walk away... assuming he has a power that lets him dig himself out. As to only letting a 'true' supernatural being hurt him and the rest being half or nothing I disagree. The power still works rather well and has a needed achilles heel to make up for it's strengths.

Now are you complaining about this as a GM or a player that has had a character rendered 'useless'?


Daniel Stoker

[KillWatch]

as a gm/player who use to think the power was cool but now with the additional rules and exceptions and mods and powers it's a minor power. It has ONE job and it can't do it

[Daniel Stoker]

as a gm/player who use to think the power was cool but now with the additional rules and exceptions and mods and powers it's a minor power. It has ONE job and it can't do it

Yes it does, it makes the character invulnerable to all kinds of common attacks and powers and makes it so that the police are stuck throwing their hands up in the air when the Villain with it comes to town, hoping that hero group will come and save the day yet again.

And considering the power levels and 'balance' that Kevin seems to advocate and the fact that this isn't a comic book where it doesn't matter if the main character has 6 majors and 3 minors it's good that it does have some holes.


Daniel Stoker

[Kalinda]

No there shouldn't be a penalty. Some Gms apply a penalty because they want to but there is no reason to apply one.

Being Impervious to fire is not going to protect your ice armor.

CES

I agree. As a GM I've never gone in for the whole "OMG, You chose a power that negates a weakness, I must either refuse to allow the combo, or come up with another weakness to punish your blatant attempt to twink your character."

Having an ice based character who doesn't take double damage from fire isn't the end of the world.

[Reagren Wright]

Invulnerabilty is one of the powers that I look at and say, "Okay you're
impervious to physical and energy attacks." I'm fine with that.
Now does that mean the next villain you run up against will be a wizard,
psychic, or someone with supernatural P.S. just so you can't be beaten down.
No. There are 400 super powers. People seem to feel that if you have invulnerability
you can't be stopped. I can come up with a list of 20 or more ways to counter
Invulnerability using super powers. So bring it on
you invulnerable bricks. Besides my adventure are not about seeing
if you can beat up some guy, its solve ths problem or a whole lot of people
are going to die. And by the way PU3 has plenty of new powers
to counter someone invulnerabilty.

[KillWatch]

cops v invulnerable,... sisnce when do cops not have tear gas?
Invulnerability USE to be like a blanket with a couple holes. Now that there are 400 (mostly) utterly redundant powers that make you think if this really is a game of creativity of a bunch of sheep wondering well why can't I do this, that blanket looks more like a net.

[KillWatch]

all right look at it this way, APS Fire, you are invulnerable to fire attacks, you can shoot fire balls, streams of fire, make walls of fire, raise the temperature. Invulnerability you are suppose not get hurt, and it isn't dointg it very well. It was like the king of the mountain that everyone was trying to take down and now they have. When you get something with a name like that you shouldn't have to ask what it does

[Daniel Stoker]

all right look at it this way, APS Fire, you are invulnerable to fire attacks, you can shoot fire balls, streams of fire, make walls of fire, raise the temperature. Invulnerability you are suppose not get hurt, and it isn't dointg it very well. It was like the king of the mountain that everyone was trying to take down and now they have. When you get something with a name like that you shouldn't have to ask what it does

Except there are a ton of things that just can't hurt you. Slow you down sure, but they're not hurting you. Again you're ignoring the power level of the game and the fact that you need some sort of balance since this isn't a comic book where rules don't matter it's got 'holes' in it.

Oh and as for the tear gas... he holds his breath and or tosses the grenades back at them.


Daniel Stoker

[KillWatch]

tosses a grenade back at them c'mon one doesn't work try ten more attacks than he is probably going to have and he is actively seeking the sources which is going to put him down even faster

as for wholes there were already magic, breathing, psionics, those are pretty big wholes

[Daniel Stoker]

tosses a grenade back at them c'mon one doesn't work try ten more attacks than he is probably going to have and he is actively seeking the sources which is going to put him down even faster

as for wholes there were already magic, breathing, psionics, those are pretty big wholes

How doesn't it work, can the grenade dodge his attempt to grapple with it?

And that's what he's vulnerable to now, they just cleared up what in regards to that he's vulnerable to with the addition of powers like Psi-Sword and Supernatural Strength.


Daniel Stoker

[KillWatch]

can he see through the smoke? can he get to every grenade launched at him before it takes affect?
I'm sorry but
also I can see Psi Sword, it's psionic but supernatural strength unless you are supnatural being is simply hitting something with your bio club harder (aka your fist)

[Daniel Stoker]

can he see through the smoke? can he get to every grenade launched at him before it takes affect?
I'm sorry but

How many at once do you think they'll launch? And how far away from him do you think they'll shoot them if it's a villian on a rampage. Or he pulls a Juggernaut and walks through it holding his breath. (Would tear gas effect the eyes of someone with Invulnerablility?)

also I can see Psi Sword, it's psionic but supernatural strength unless you are supnatural being is simply hitting something with your bio club harder (aka your fist)

Well no Supernaturalhuman strength is... supernatural. I really need to pull my book out and re-read both powers to see what exactly they say. But why is it horrible that that one power can effect an invulnerable person but ok that Psi-Sword can too?


Daniel Stoker

[KillWatch]

for snps if it's genetic it's not supernatural if you are a god or godling etc then fine. SNPS is one of those powers that crosses the line

I don't know about tear gas but let's ay knock out gas or that green light flash that makes people want to puke

[Daniel Stoker]

for snps if it's genetic it's not supernatural if you are a god or godling etc then fine. SNPS is one of those powers that crosses the line

Why does that matter? Psi-Sword crosses the line too and you have a chance of having a mutant or experiment with that power able to cut into your Invulnerable person.

I don't know about tear gas but let's ay knock out gas or that green light flash that makes people want to puke

How many police forces really have knock out gas? (And look what happened in Russia when they tried to use that in the theater.) As to the green light dohicky, would that work?


Daniel Stoker

[Reagren Wright]

Extra PE is 4D4x10 SDC and 3D6 hit points plus 1D4 per level.

Invulnerability is 4D6x10 SDC and 3D6x10 hit points.

Not factoring Roll with Punches, Parries, and Power Blows the
advantage does go to Invulnerability. Beause he will is likely to
have more hit points.

[Blight]

one moment i didn't know psi sword could hurt some one who was invulnerable? When did this happen i thought an invlnerable guy could not be hurt by physical magics.(aka fire light blade and others) or physical psychic powers (aka TK punch TK Acceleration attack) why would Psi sword work?

[Yukon]

Invulnerable Power Thread (one of many..)

[KillWatch]

and that's kind of my point, everything keeps seeping in. And as soemone pointed out in the other thread Intangibility is hard. Yep

[Daniel Stoker]

and that's kind of my point, everything keeps seeping in. And as soemone pointed out in the other thread Intangibility is hard. Yep

Creep in or they clear up misconceptions? And I don't quite understand what you are trying to say about Intangibility.


Daniel Stoker

[Blight]

one moment i didn't know psi sword could hurt some one who was invulnerable? When did this happen i thought an invlnerable guy could not be hurt by physical magics.(aka fire bolt, light blade, and others) or physical psychic powers (aka TK punch, and TK Acceleration attack) why would Psi sword work?

Ok let me be more specific what book and page does it say psi-sword hurts an invulnerable guy or gal?

Invulnerable Power Thread (one of many..)

I went threw that whole thread didn't find anything.

[Reagren Wright]

Okay I remember seeing it but I can't remember where. What I
do remember was someone I think Wayne Breaux said he believe
Psi-Sword should only do 1/2 damage to Invulnerable beings while
Kevin said it should do full damage. Now if only I could remember where
I saw this.

[Blight]

but that makes no sense if physical psi powers don't effect the Invulnerable being as it says in the power, and psi-sword is a physical psionic power.. Well you can see my point.
Oh and sorry didn't mean to derail the thread i just wanted to know.

[Daniel Stoker]

but that makes no sense if physical psi powers don't effect the Invulnerable being as it says in the power, and psi-sword is a physical psionic power.. Well you can see my point.
Oh and sorry didn't mean to derail the thread i just wanted to know.

But Bio-Manipulation which as per the description physically effects portions of the brain to cause blindness, paralysis, etc does effect them.


Daniel Stoker

[KillWatch]

Psi Sword becuase if Chi abilities affect invulnerables then why not every power of other than super powered origin like Psi Sword. Of coures TK (or I hope) will have no affect on the invulnerable person accroding to the book anyway

The power didn't HAVE any misconceptions how much more basic than the word invulnerable can you get?

[Daniel Stoker]

Psi Sword becuase if Chi abilities affect invulnerables then why not every power of other than super powered origin like Psi Sword. Of coures TK (or I hope) will have no affect on the invulnerable person accroding to the book anyway

The power didn't HAVE any misconceptions how much more basic than the word invulnerable can you get?

The power had all kinds, what type of psionics affect it, how about that laser light you were talking about? Sorry but the defination needs to be a bit more in depth then the dictionary version of the word invulnerable.


Daniel Stoker

[KillWatch]

the laser light is just disorienting, it doesn't do damage. I can see a Telepath getting the better of the invulnerable character and speels at half but any other physical damage just shouldn't be. There were already plenty of ways to get around it
but apparently the masses wanted super powers to do so, they wanted to hit the invulnerable and make them bleed and now they can

[Daniel Stoker]

the laser light is just disorienting, it doesn't do damage.

Ok but it still would be a weakness/vulnerability that the invulnerable person has... I mean look up the word invulnerable in the dictionary and it doesn't mention laser disorientation.

I can see a Telepath getting the better of the invulnerable character and speels at half but any other physical damage just shouldn't be. There were already plenty of ways to get around it

Why can you see spells at half and not full? And if Telepathy effects him why not psi-sword since both are psionic energy effecting the person. (And what's your stance on Bio-Manipulation?)

but apparently the masses wanted super powers to do so, they wanted to hit the invulnerable and make them bleed and now they can

Or they wanted to have a power in the game that was semi-balanced with other powers in the same class.


Daniel Stoker

[KillWatch]

I know that the light would be vulnerability I was stating it as such

Telepathy doesn't do physical harm, mind control doesn't do physical harm. Psi sword does

Magic Spells like Fireball affect physcial SDC so half. But magic has so many other ways to deal with an invulnerable person, fear, domination etcetc

Bio Manipulation? Blind him? Sure. Deafen him? Sure. Feel pain ok (no damage) and I would probably cut his resistance to pain in half since he doesn't normally feel it.