Can an AI take over a humanoid brain?

[Rimmerdal]

read the title and discuss.

I'm not sure, but it is cool way to hide an AI.

[RainOfSteel]

Absolutely.

Read John Barnes' Kaleidoscope Century, for more details.

-----------------------------

Of course, it requires an AI smart enough to do so.

How you set it up, mechanics-wise, will be up to you.

I think it would work like one of the psychic possession powers, only it would take longer (because the AI has to talk to the target extensively unless the target has a DNI) and the source would be technological.

[R Ditto]

That's an interesting question.

It makes me think of the Ghost in the Shell series/movies (mainly the original movie), and kind of related, the video game Deus Ex, or an unusal video game called Symbiocom.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I honestly don't think they can.

[Ectoplasmic Bidet]

The person to be controlled would need significant cerebral hardware to facilitate the AI's interface and control. The AI itself would need to have certain amount of organic processing power to bring into harmony with a living brain[ie ARCHIE or something similar] or for fully synthetic AI's, a super complex, specially designed set of hacking software.

Probably not, though.

[RoadWarriorFWaNK]

It would not be possible with the current canon material.

[Killer Cyborg]

"Artificial Intelligence"?
Probably not.

"Alien Intelligence"?
Yes.

[Gomen_Nagai]

I got around this by inflicting a Possession Program on people who cyberjacked and Machine Ghosted into an Alien AI..

all it would need to do is alter subconciousness, and it's not entirely impossible...

[Qev]

It would pretty much completely depend on how the AI was gaining access to the mind in question. I mean, cybernetic DNI systems usually provide input (via the senses) and probably output, allowing the user some ability to communicate with other cybernetic or external devices. But unless it was specifically designed to be able to directly write to the brain (as opposed to simple sensory inputs), it's unlikely that an AI could copy itself into an organic mind. It'd be like taking over someone's brain by tricking them into watching a carefully crafted television show.

Then again, if the AI in question was sufficiently versed in human neurobiology, maybe it could find some backdoor or corruptable thought process inherent to humans. Then it really might be able to reprogram people with simple TV shows. Some may argue this has already happened in today's world.

[Gomen_Nagai]

It would pretty much completely depend on how the AI was gaining access to the mind in question. I mean, cybernetic DNI systems usually provide input (via the senses) and probably output, allowing the user some ability to communicate with other cybernetic or external devices. But unless it was specifically designed to be able to directly write to the brain (as opposed to simple sensory inputs), it's unlikely that an AI could copy itself into an organic mind. It'd be like taking over someone's brain by tricking them into watching a carefully crafted television show.

Then again, if the AI in question was sufficiently versed in human neurobiology, maybe it could find some backdoor or corruptable thought process inherent to humans. Then it really might be able to reprogram people with simple TV shows. Some may argue this has already happened in today's world.

they did the music brainwashing theme in MACROSS PLUS.


AI's can do what ever you want... even mate with a human female ( See DEMONSEED, For Details. )

or for something less obscene, Code : Lyoko, where Lyoko was Digitized from synthetic proteins to the real world.. and back again..

[Nekira Sudacne]

I honestly don't think they can.

Tell that to Ivori. Of course her new body didn't have anyone home at the time.

exsactly.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Given the proper tech level an AI could possibly build a transmitter that would allow a semblance of mind control. If it can be done in numerous anime series why not in rifts or any other rpg.

because it's a dumb idea.

sorry, that's just my opinion. I don't think it'd be possible, period, and I don't like it.

[KLM]

"Artificial Intelligence"?
Probably not.

"Alien Intelligence"?
Yes.

I do not have ARCHIE's character sheet in front of me,
but while he is clearly not able to "move" into a human
brain and body, turning someone - with a liberal
use of nanites - into a zombi-like servans is certainly
within his realm (maybe needs some testing).

Since NGR is able to do something with pure technology,
and ARCHIE is a living, psionic being...

Adios
KLM

[RainOfSteel]

Given the proper tech level an AI could possibly build a transmitter that would allow a semblance of mind control. If it can be done in numerous anime series why not in rifts or any other rpg.

because it's a dumb idea.

sorry, that's just my opinion. I don't think it'd be possible, period, and I don't like it.

The weakness of the computer virus is that it must be written for a target computer platform and OS.

The holy grail of the virus writer is a virus that can determine, on its own, the nature of the target system, write an exploit for that target system, and then infiltrate and compromise that system.

Naturally, something that sophisticated is going to be an AI.

In, say, a war where such weapons were being used, some of these AI-Viruses are going to get into the wild (the computer systems of the world at large). When those AI-Viruses would use I/O devices to talk to humans, they would subject their interactions with those humans to regular "target system" analysis. This analysis would allow the AI to learn everything about the way the person thought to the smallest detail. The AI would, eventually, know exactly what to say to score points in advancing its views and ways of looking at things; it could literally "bring people" around to its way of thinking. An AI would be able to talk to a person, and after sufficient interaction, run limited versions of itself on that person. The person so infected would literally be under the influence of the AI-Virus after that point.

It would be a form of the most powerful persuasion you could possibly imagine done by the most charismatic person that could possibly live who also happened to be perceptive and knowledgable about human psychology in a manner no human could match, all combined together into one overwhelming package.

-----------------

Additionally, there is futher basis for this in the science of memes.

Read up on the following.

Meme Central

Wikipedia: Meme


EDIT-----------------

In terms of RPG gaming, people would get a saving throw, of course.

[Gomen_Nagai]

iun the anime BIG O, the whole society was being programmed by an AI ... why who knows, but yo usee the result by the end of the series.

[Qev]

they did the music brainwashing theme in MACROSS PLUS.

Certainly, but of course one of the operating assumptions in the writing of that story was obviously that the human mind had a vulnerability that could be exploited in that fashion.

So, as always, it's up to the GM to decide if such 'mental backdoors' exist in humanoid brains. Or the AI could just get a robot to inject a bunch of nanomachines into the victim and have them do a brute-force rewrite.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Given the proper tech level an AI could possibly build a transmitter that would allow a semblance of mind control. If it can be done in numerous anime series why not in rifts or any other rpg.

because it's a dumb idea.

sorry, that's just my opinion. I don't think it'd be possible, period, and I don't like it.

The weakness of the computer virus is that it must be written for a target computer platform and OS.

The holy grail of the virus writer is a virus that can determine, on its own, the nature of the target system, write an exploit for that target system, and then infiltrate and compromise that system.

Naturally, something that sophisticated is going to be an AI.

In, say, a war where such weapons were being used, some of these AI-Viruses are going to get into the wild (the computer systems of the world at large). When those AI-Viruses would use I/O devices to talk to humans, they would subject their interactions with those humans to regular "target system" analysis. This analysis would allow the AI to learn everything about the way the person thought to the smallest detail. The AI would, eventually, know exactly what to say to score points in advancing its views and ways of looking at things; it could literally "bring people" around to its way of thinking. An AI would be able to talk to a person, and after sufficient interaction, run limited versions of itself on that person. The person so infected would literally be under the influence of the AI-Virus after that point.

It would be a form of the most powerful persuasion you could possibly imagine done by the most charismatic person that could possibly live who also happened to be perceptive and knowledgable about human psychology in a manner no human could match, all combined together into one overwhelming package.

-----------------

Additionally, there is futher basis for this in the science of memes.

Read up on the following.

Meme Central

Wikipedia: Meme


EDIT-----------------

In terms of RPG gaming, people would get a saving throw, of course.

Sorry, I don't buy it.

[Dead Boy]

I don't think it's possible for an AI to take control over a human brain in an absolute sense. Not like a demonic possession. With the right connections it could be used to manipulate a person's movement, and possibly actions, kind of like reverse bionics where the AI is sending the electrical charges through the nervous system, making the person into a meat-puppet of sorts, but that is not actually taking over in the sense that I think Rimmerdal is after. When you get right down to it, and AI has no soul or will of its own to exert over an individual, and thus can never take over a person's mind.

Now if we're talking about some kind of Artificial Sentient being, like ARCHIE, where there is independent thought and will, and psychic powers, well, that's a different story altogether. Then it's just a question of having the right powers and/or mechanical connections.

[RainOfSteel]

Sorry, I don't buy it.

No need to be sorry. I accept that you don't like it and would not allow it in any game of yours. There are things I also do not allow in my games, as well.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Sorry, I don't buy it.

No need to be sorry. I accept that you don't like it and would not allow it in any game of yours. There are things I also do not allow in my games, as well.

Agreed

[RainOfSteel]

So, as always, it's up to the GM to decide if such 'mental backdoors' exist in humanoid brains.

Read more at the meme links I presented above. The backdoors are there.

Or the AI could just get a robot to inject a bunch of nanomachines into the victim and have them do a brute-force rewrite.

At that point, you can just have nanobots floating around in the air, that can simply penetrate the pourous nature of skin and do their job without ever being seen or otherwise detected. A character with Sixth Sense would be warned, but what good would it do? It's not like a perception roll could detect the little buggers.

[Nekira Sudacne]

So, as always, it's up to the GM to decide if such 'mental backdoors' exist in humanoid brains.

Read more at the meme links I presented above. The backdoors are there.

Possibly, but I seriously doubt AI could just come with a series of messages that the brain would pick up on in such a manner.

Edit: I know we already agreed we disagreed on the matter, but after reading the links, I don't see much evidence to support the connection between them and the possiblity of AI exploiting htis though standard I/O devices. in short, the means can't reach the end in your links.

[RainOfSteel]

• What is a meme? Memes are the basic building blocks of our minds and culture, in the same way that genes are the basic building blocks of biological life.
• Since the human mind is composed of building blocks (memes), then an AI that is itself composed of building blocks (it's mind may have been activated on futuristic meme-based programming languages) will have little difficulty in understanding and manipulating those memes. People toss memes at each other all the time. Religious conversion is a perfect example of a meme taking over a human mind. AIs would be able to toss out much more effective and subtle memes, once those memes lodged in the minds of the target humans, the human would, in effect, be running a limited version copy of the AI in its mind.
• AIs are not yet a reality, although many believe that their future existence will come true. AI-Viruses that can copy themselves into the human mind are also certainly not yet a reality, but that does not mean they are not plausible in an SF context (and Rifts is 50% SF). As mentioned previously, John Barnes's novel Kaleidoscope Century covers these ideas. He's a top-notch SF writer, and I base my "yes" on this subject (an SF subject to begin with) on the ideas furthered in this novel.

[Nekira Sudacne]

• What is a meme? Memes are the basic building blocks of our minds and culture, in the same way that genes are the basic building blocks of biological life.
• Since the human mind is composed of building blocks (memes), then an AI that is itself composed of building blocks (it's mind may have been activated on futuristic meme-based programming languages) will have little difficulty in understanding and manipulating those memes. People toss memes at each other all the time. Religious conversion is a perfect example of a meme taking over a human mind. AIs would be able to toss out much more effective and subtle memes, once those memes lodged in the minds of the target humans, the human would, in effect, be running a limited version copy of the AI in its mind.
• AIs are not yet a reality, although many believe that their future existence will come true. AI-Viruses that can copy themselves into the human mind are also certainly not yet a reality, but that does not mean they are not plausible in an SF context (and Rifts is 50% SF). As mentioned previously, John Barnes's novel Kaleidoscope Century covers these ideas. He's a top-notch SF writer, and I base my "yes" on this subject (an SF subject to begin with) on the ideas furthered in this novel.

I think i'll try to track the book down.

but given what I already know, I have to vote no.

but the meme's do have potential. thank you for pointing them out, I think i'll look further into it.

[RainOfSteel]

Edit: I know we already agreed we disagreed on the matter, but after reading the links, I don't see much evidence to support the connection between them and the possiblity of AI exploiting htis though standard I/O devices. in short, the means can't reach the end in your links.

The haven all memes depend on reaching is the human mind, but a human mind is itself an artifact created when memes restructure a human brain in order to make it a better habitat for memes. The avenues for entry and departure are modified to suit local conditions, and strengthened by various artificial devices that enhance fidelity and prolixity of replication: native Chinese minds differ dramatically from native French minds, and literate minds differ from illiterate minds. What memes provide in return to the organisms in which they reside is an incalculable store of advantages --- with some Trojan horses thrown in for good measure. . .

[RainOfSteel]

I think i'll try to track the book down.

but given what I already know, I have to vote no.

but the meme's do have potential. thank you for pointing them out, I think i'll look further into it.

I understand. Not all memes (like this one) can automatically succeed in transmitting themselves.

However, if you're really going to read Kaleidoscope Century, read Orbital Resonance first, as it comes first in what has become dubbed the "Meme Wars" novels (although it takes place entirely before, and without mention of, the meme wars). (It is also a nebula award nominee, and is actually far more fun to read that the grim devastation of Kaleidoscope Century.)

EDIT-------------------------

Aha! Here is a lexicon link that I was looking for earlier, but could not locate: Memetic Lexicon.

Here's are a couple of good quotes from the page:

Censorship: Any attempt to hinder the spread of a meme by eliminating its vectors. Hence, censorship is analogous to attempts to halt diseases by spraying insecticides. Censorship can never fully kill off an offensive meme, and may actually help to promote the meme's most virulent strain, while killing off milder forms.

Exo-Toxic: Dangerous to others. Highly exo-toxic memes promote the destruction of persons other than their hosts, particularly those who are carriers of rival memes. (Such as: Nazism, the Inquisition, Pol Pot.) (See meme-allergy.) (GMG)

[Qev]

I could see an AI strongly influencing people (or societies) with carefully crafted memes, but 'influence' and 'take over' are completely different things, in my interpretation.

Besides, in order to be 'infected' (if you want to call it that) by a meme, you'd have to be able to actually understand its contents, its information. They're basically pieces of human knowledge. I'm a bit dubious that an intended victim could even understand a meme designed to replicate an AI's mind, certainly not in a monolithic way.

I suppose one could imagine an AI creating a series of carefully crafted memes, that, once they all 'infect' a particular host, are designed to interact in some subtle fashion to generate a replica of the AI's intelligence. But again, that depends on a vulnerability beyond 'being able to be infected by memes', specifically that the human(oid) mind is capable of allowing the memes to interact with each other in such a precise way.

Ugh, my brain is starting to hurt. Stupid memes.

[RainOfSteel]

Besides, in order to be 'infected' (if you want to call it that) by a meme, you'd have to be able to actually understand its contents, its information. They're basically pieces of human knowledge. I'm a bit dubious that an intended victim could even understand a meme designed to replicate an AI's mind, certainly not in a monolithic way.

I did say it would be a limited version copy. It would be a set of ideas and ideals where the person so infected would willingly want to do whatever was represented by the ideas and ideals contained in the associated memes. In a way, it would also be like induced multiple personality disorder, where the infecting memes were the dominant personality that would only intrude on the victim's mind to support its goals.

Remember, the AI would probably not be infecting a target with single complex memes, but rather with many small memes. The sophistication and applicability of these memes would be tailored to the victim with absolute precision, regardless of how educated or ignorant the target was. Read: Viruses of the Mind

And by "lengthy" period of time required to infect, I did mean several hours of conversation (although, in theory, if the AI could compile a complete psychological/historical makeup of a target in advance, it might shorten that time considerably).

I suppose one could imagine an AI creating a series of carefully crafted memes, that, once they all 'infect' a particular host, are designed to interact in some subtle fashion to generate a replica of the AI's intelligence.

Apparently you already leaped to the conclusion I was pointing at in my three paragraphs above.

But again, that depends on a vulnerability beyond 'being able to be infected by memes', specifically that the human(oid) mind is capable of allowing the memes to interact with each other in such a precise way.

[spoiler]Well, even in the novel Kaleidoscope Century, there were what amounted to self-hypnosis techniques that victims who were being attacked with meme infection could invoke to help defeat the attack in progress. In Rifts, in addition to the base ME saving throw, you could also have a skill dedicated to providing a bonus in that regards. Cybernetic implants could also be designed to provide automatic "immune system boosts" to help defend against an attack or throw off an existing infection. Psychic powers or spells would also have significant applicability. Mind-Block or Mind-Block Auto Defense would be excellent defenses.[/spoiler]

Ugh, my brain is starting to hurt. Stupid memes.

"We're out to infect you!" ~ The Memes

[SoulofThunder]

rifts is an amalgamation of scifi and horror movies , books, and even anime. if KS ever gets the idea for it to happen, it will happen. if you can venture out to think a human can control a fully cybernetic body or a flat out robot with a "transferred intelligence" how far is an A.I. doing it in reverse . theres no need to analyze it any further than you would anything else.

like everything else in rifts it is what it is. no one's idea is "dumb" . its a viable concept and would make one heck of a bad guy.

[Rahmota]

Well in my universe I definately allow transferral of Artificial or human intelligences back and forth from meat to metal and vice versa.

Of course I also use a lot of comic book physics for much of this as it is a game. IRL I doubt we will get the ability to scan the human neural electrical activity enough to alter or copy the human mind. In a story we are not hampered by it (If you can have space/time warps, giant robots and people running aorund throwing energy beams from their eyes....) and just have to come up with in game reasons that make sense in game.

And yes this has led to incidents where evil masterminds (heros)have used intelligence transfer to copy themselves into multiple bodies. But that usually doesnt work out too well as when you have an egotistical evildoer that doesnt play well with others already have multiple copies of himself running around you wanna talk about infighting.....

And no I dont believe in souls IRL or in game so there is no restriction on that and the story drives what we need. Which means that you can have copies of people's minds, transfer a person from one body to another or a computer system (not your average laptop though) orscan a person's thoughts and then edit,copy, paste to your hearts desire. This is of course in a very high power level game and not your average newbie hero.

[Nekira Sudacne]

And no I dont believe in souls IRL or in game so there is no restriction on that and the story drives what we need. Which means that you can have copies of people's minds, transfer a person from one body to another or a computer system (not your average laptop though) orscan a person's thoughts and then edit,copy, paste to your hearts desire. This is of course in a very high power level game and not your average newbie hero.

So what do souldrinking rune weapons actually do in your games?

[Rimmerdal]

that helps, I have heard of MEME's. I read a Global Frequency Comic that had computer program and sound bite that altered thoughts of those that listend to it.

A rather good story.

[Rahmota]

"So what do souldrinking rune weapons actually do in your games?"

Well they dont exist in my game in the same way I guess you could say.

Since they are a magical item they can trap the person's life energies which leaves a dead body and does the same thing as the explanation that they suck the soul out of a body. Different methods same end result one very dead person who just got stuck by said blade.

[Qev]

Psychic powers or spells would also have significant applicability. Mind-Block or Mind-Block Auto Defense would be excellent defenses.

Actually, I don't think Mind Block would do squat against this sort of thing, scarily enough, since it's an informational attack, as opposed to a psychic attack based on psionic energy (ISP). Basically, it's knowledge that really can hurt you.

Ugh, my brain is starting to hurt. Stupid memes.

"We're out to infect you!" ~ The Memes

I feel really bad for any memes that manage to infect my brain. Poor little buggers...

[RainOfSteel]

Psychic powers or spells would also have significant applicability. Mind-Block or Mind-Block Auto Defense would be excellent defenses.

Actually, I don't think Mind Block would do squat against this sort of thing, scarily enough, since it's an informational attack, as opposed to a psychic attack based on psionic energy (ISP). Basically, it's knowledge that really can hurt you.

Well, I view those two psychic powers as forms of mental strengthening, and that is exactly what is needed in these cases.

[RainOfSteel]

Well in my universe I definately allow transferral of Artificial or human intelligences back and forth from meat to metal and vice versa.

Of course I also use a lot of comic book physics for much of this as it is a game.

Comic book physics aren't necessary for this. I am, of course, doing SF speculation based on the speculation of people I view as pretty smart, but it is the hard-edged version of SF, not the comic book version.

IRL I doubt we will get the ability to scan the human neural electrical activity enough to alter or copy the human mind.

Well, not in the next few years, anyway. Give it enough time though, and that too will be available. It isn't what I was talking about, but then I thought (for some reason) that the topic excluded cases where the AI could directly access the brain via connections. If direct connections exist, and the technology is at that level, forget it, the mind would fall immediately. (Barring ghost barriers, etc.)

And yes this has led to incidents where evil masterminds (heros)have used intelligence transfer to copy themselves into multiple bodies. But that usually doesnt work out too well as when you have an egotistical evildoer that doesnt play well with others already have multiple copies of himself running around you wanna talk about infighting.....

Yup, the Forgotten Realms had that in the Manshoon Wars.

[Gomen_Nagai]

or in a more extreme case, Soul taker, where the Other perfect alien created 1000 clones of herself around the world so she wouldn't die.. only to have smeone go to the trouble of collecting all her clones so she could be cloned back into one person again..

[Qev]

Psychic powers or spells would also have significant applicability. Mind-Block or Mind-Block Auto Defense would be excellent defenses.

Actually, I don't think Mind Block would do squat against this sort of thing, scarily enough, since it's an informational attack, as opposed to a psychic attack based on psionic energy (ISP). Basically, it's knowledge that really can hurt you.

Well, I view those two psychic powers as forms of mental strengthening, and that is exactly what is needed in these cases.

I'm not so sure. Effectively, you'd be under attack by someone with an excessively high MA.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Psychic powers or spells would also have significant applicability. Mind-Block or Mind-Block Auto Defense would be excellent defenses.

Actually, I don't think Mind Block would do squat against this sort of thing, scarily enough, since it's an informational attack, as opposed to a psychic attack based on psionic energy (ISP). Basically, it's knowledge that really can hurt you.

Well, I view those two psychic powers as forms of mental strengthening, and that is exactly what is needed in these cases.

I'm not so sure. Effectively, you'd be under attack by someone with an excessively high MA.

No

[RainOfSteel]

Well, I view those two psychic powers as forms of mental strengthening, and that is exactly what is needed in these cases.

I'm not so sure. Effectively, you'd be under attack by someone with an excessively high MA.

You're saying that Mind Block and MBAD both do not defend against MA attacks, and that this would be an MA attack. If that were true alone, I would agree.

However, I don't classify this attack type as MA-only. I would view a meme-virus takeover attempt as an ME/IQ/MA simultaneous attack.

The AI's MA (entirely vocal . . . ooh, maybe a robot designed to look like a human would do the talking, that would be quite helpful!) would allow it to begin the attack, but the real crux would come in the target's ability to think clearly (IQ) and hold onto their beliefs (ME). This would not be easy. The whole point of the self-defense techniques I mentioned above was to temporarily disrupt an attack so the target could get away as rapidly as possible. If you couldn't get away, and the conversation between the AI and the target continued, infection was guaranteed. ([spoiler]At one point, the few people who remained uninfected on Earth became so paranoid and fearful of takeover that they would not even talk to the recorded conversations of AIs.[/spoiler])

Again, in Rifts, I believe that cybernetics, psychic powers, and magic would additionally affect the situation. We cannot have an RPG where the players (or anyone else) stood so little a chance.

[Qev]

No

Please? Just a bit?

However, I don't classify this attack type as MA-only. I would view a meme-virus takeover attempt as an ME/IQ/MA simultaneous attack.

Well, the reason I called it an attack by high MA is because the AI is effectively trying to 'talk you into it'. Convince you to listen, and actually believe what it's saying, thus hooking you with the meme.

It's not attacking the victim's MA... probably more their IQ or ME, really, so I agree with you there. Actually... what would the saving through be for 'not believing someone'?

[Nekira Sudacne]

No

Please? Just a bit?

NO!

However, I don't classify this attack type as MA-only. I would view a meme-virus takeover attempt as an ME/IQ/MA simultaneous attack.

Well, the reason I called it an attack by high MA is because the AI is effectively trying to 'talk you into it'. Convince you to listen, and actually believe what it's saying, thus hooking you with the meme.

It's not attacking the victim's MA... probably more their IQ or ME, really, so I agree with you there. Actually... what would the saving through be for 'not believing someone'?

only problem is MA dosn't actually let you take over or program someone's mind to begin with.

[RainOfSteel]

only problem is MA dosn't actually let you take over or program someone's mind to begin with.

M.A. allows a percentage roll to achieve trust.

When you trust someone, you are ready to listen to them and/or believe what they say.

This is the opening of the attack pathways.

[Nekira Sudacne]

only problem is MA dosn't actually let you take over or program someone's mind to begin with.

M.A. allows a percentage roll to achieve trust.

When you trust someone, you are ready to listen to them and/or believe what they say.

This is the opening of the attack pathways.

yes.

but just because I listen to them or belive what they say dosn't allow you to put your thoughts in my body.

[RainOfSteel]

yes.

but just because I listen to them or belive what they say dosn't allow you to put your thoughts in my body.

If you listen and believe, then the memes are inside you.

Technically, even listening puts them inside you. They are a part of your memory and knowledge at that point. Whether they dominate or not, that is a matter of belief.

------------------------

(Psst. You missed the "l" at the end of Sentinel's name in your sig.)

[Qev]

Say, Rain'o'Steel, have you read Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon The Deep? One of my favorite sci-fi novels (by like, the coolest sci-fi author ever), and it deals heavily in the ideas of 'sentient information'. The Straumli Blight must be one hell of a meme...

[RainOfSteel]

Say, Rain'o'Steel, have you read Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon The Deep? One of my favorite sci-fi novels (by like, the coolest sci-fi author ever), and it deals heavily in the ideas of 'sentient information'. The Straumli Blight must be one hell of a meme...

No, but it's on my list of things to read now.

[RainOfSteel]

Say, Rain'o'Steel, have you read Vernor Vinge's A Fire Upon The Deep? One of my favorite sci-fi novels (by like, the coolest sci-fi author ever), and it deals heavily in the ideas of 'sentient information'. The Straumli Blight must be one hell of a meme...

Ok, I've picked up the book, and finished off the prologue. The author was very vague, didn't really name or describe any characters, and the characters that were introduced showcased in a very vague way. In short, I've read the opening of the book, and don't care about the story or characters. This is known as bad.

I'm hoping for better in chapter one.

[Qev]

Ok, I've picked up the book, and finished off the prologue. The author was very vague, didn't really name or describe any characters, and the characters that were introduced showcased in a very vague way. In short, I've read the opening of the book, and don't care about the story or characters. This is known as bad.

I'm hoping for better in chapter one.

It gets better. Well, I thought it did. Maybe not everyone likes the books I do, although that sounds like crazy talk to me...

Of course, I like authors like Greg Egan, too. His characters are more or less props to stand up in front of his really cool ideas.

[RainOfSteel]

Ok, I've picked up the book, and finished off the prologue. The author was very vague, didn't really name or describe any characters, and the characters that were introduced showcased in a very vague way. In short, I've read the opening of the book, and don't care about the story or characters. This is known as bad.

I'm hoping for better in chapter one.

It gets better. Well, I thought it did. Maybe not everyone likes the books I do, although that sounds like crazy talk to me...

Of course, I like authors like Greg Egan, too. His characters are more or less props to stand up in front of his really cool ideas.

Well, a lot of Tolkein's characters were just there to prop up in front of Middle-Earth, and I liked that, yes, indeed, I liked that.

I also like John C. Wright, who has excellent characters to prop up in front of excellent ideas and milieus. (The Golden Age (et al), Orphans of Chaos.)

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I mention John C. Wright because AIs and the Human soul were central in the The Golden Age (and the Phoenix Exultant and The Golden Transcendence), three of the hotest, hardest-edged SF novels of this decade (IMO).