Why do D20 players think we Rifts players are munchkins?

[cornholioprime]

Simply because:

A]] You play the OTHER Game and NOT D&D; it ALL goes back to KevSim's treatise on how if Human A loves B, then he'll IMMEDIATELY find ways to impugn Person C's love of D; therefore, even though PFRPG is NOT a very uber-powerful Gaming System, they STILL say that ALL of the Palladium Titles cater to Munchkins. WHICH IS PRETTY DAMNED STUPID. Virtually EVERY RPG out there is "munchkin" unto itself. Any of you ever tried to go up agains Elminster. He can take on MOST D&D Dragons, and could probably WIN!!!

B]] I used to play and collect that Game extensively; and from the get-go, they NEVER loved the Merging of Magic and Technology. ALL Kingdoms must look like [blah], all Fighter Types must wield [Blah], and so on, and so on.

To this day, AFAIK, GUNPOWDER STILL DOESN'T WORK IN THEIR GAME (SOME OF US WERE BEGINNING TO DEVELOP CANNONS, MUSKETS, AND OTHER BALLISTA/ARTILLERY; BIG NO-NO)............

C]]They ALSO hate the Alignments (and I know, for I used to think that way, too) that Rifts provides for. ALL Chaotic Characters MUST be at least a little crazy, ALL Diabolic Evil Characters MUST be out to destroy the world, and ALL Lawful Good Characters are in danger of losing their Alignments (and any Abilities/Feats that go with them) if they even sleep with the Barmaid. Little or no "shades of grey." A little Comic-Bookish, IMO..........

[Colonel Wolfe]

To this day, AFAIK, GUNPOWDER STILL DOESN'T WORK IN THEIR GAME (SOME OF US WERE BEGINNING TO DEVELOP CANNONS, MUSKETS, AND OTHER BALLISTA/ARTILLERY; BIG NO-NO)............

hmmm... Thats Second Ed. GreyHawk, TSR among its other attempts to destroy that setting said the God wont let Gunpower work...

as Far as 3rd Ed.
Gun power can be Made by anyone with the Alchemy Skill, and proper Ingrediants.

now for the topic Question:

from my Con Experince, the Majority of Rifts Gamers fall in the Power Gamer Group, and some in to pure Munchkinism... but this is only my Personal Experince wiht prolly a True Minority of people.

I ran a Rifts Game at a Con, had Pregen PC's, nothing to Powerful, everything was fomr the RMB.
I had to fools walk up to me wanting to play their home game Pc's, before telling them no i agreed to see what they had....
One was a Decended Glitterboy Pilot, turned Pilot-Juicer... and was Half-Cyber, in a FQ-GB...
The Other was a Adult Dragon, Lev 15 Technowizard...

can you guess how hard i Laughed at them?

the Main Boss guy for the Adventure was a Hatchling Dragon with a Minor Rune Weapon.... the DGB/Juicer would have eaten him solo... much less a Adult Dragon.

The people who did PLay were Robotech fans and peopel who had wanted to Try Rifts... they Liked the game, thought the Mixx of Tech/Alien/monster & Magics was cool.
now Imagine I'd been the GM fomr the 2 Dorks with the DGB/juicer & Adult Dragons Game Running a Game at the Con... if his PC's are that Tough, how bad are the Things he makes them fight. and what kinda impression of the Game would a New player get fomr that type of game...

but also as Cornholio said... its alot Stemed fomr D&D/D20 fans not Liking the "other guys"... but is it Really any diffrent here? even a Semi-polite discussion about D&D v. Palladium products has a Few people who post an Unimfomred/inncorect View of D&D.... after admiting to have never touched a single book, they'll pip i about some feture of the game they hate.

I DM/play both, but my Robotech Games are Either heavily Modofied w/ house rules, or Played by the book... Ignoring any rules changes made After Robotechs Print.

[Colonel Wolfe]

C]]They ALSO hate the Alignments (and I know, for I used to think that way, too) that Rifts provides for. ALL Chaotic Characters MUST be at least a little crazy, ALL Diabolic Evil Characters MUST be out to destroy the world, and ALL Lawful Good Characters are in danger of losing their Alignments (and any Abilities/Feats that go with them) if they even sleep with the Barmaid. Little or no "shades of grey." A little Comic-Bookish, IMO..........

What version of the D&D Alingments did you Read?
I'm very sure your looking at a Second ed. Alingment view...
as no whee in the 3rd ed books dose it say a Cahaotic person has to be insane.
and Sleeping with a Barmaid isnt an alignment Violation... getting her Drunk then Rapeing her would be.... holding her sister hostage to make her do the deed would be... just meeting her, and having a good ol time is okay, even solisiting a Prostitute is okay for a Lawful good person, as Long as Prostution isnt a Crime.

[Jesterzzn]

Exactly 80% (yes this is a scientific study) of all role-players suffer from AFBS, or Acute Fan Boy Syndrome. Those affected have no tolerance of other gaming systems or the people who play them. It also causes paling of the skin, bloating of the mid section, and an allergic reaction to bathing water apon the skin. Often AFBS is associated with NGFY or No Girls For You.

[grymhammer]

Why are Palladium Games viewed as Munchkin by the D20 community? Hmm...

I'd have to say, that the biggest gripes I come across are:

1.) Balance. It's a big issue in a D20 game. The classes are all balanced against each other. Each class against the other works out about the same. Class abilities vary, but none of them are over powering, when held up against the other classes. Sure, wizards can get very powerful, but a fighter can too. Balance is important to some games, in D&D D20, the most popular RPG, the game most people start playing, it's very important. As a 'beginner' game, it's viewed as important to keep thing level, to make sure everyone has fun I imagine.

2.) Physical skills. I think that lots of players just want to stick with the stats they rolled, and to be able to build upon them seems like Munchkinism to them.

3.) Different dice mechanics. D20 uses the D20 for all tasks except damage and hit dice.

My personal gripes with Palladium?

a.) You need a 16 in any stat to get a bonus. I much prefer the D&D bonuses starting at 12 and working up.

b.) I'm not much of a fan of the percentage skill system. I prefer the skill ranks and the DC needed for skill checks.

c.) Too many skills, spread out all over the place(I know, I know I need to get the Rifts GMG...) Heck, this goes the same with bonuses, saves and such, the character sheet I have for Rifts lists something like 12 different saves, it's nuts.

d.) I DO like Palladium's parry, D20 needs it. I guess the Conan RPG by Mongoose has a parry value, but I'm not sure how it works exactly.

I don't think the alignment system plays into it much, I mean, a Palladium player will argue that there is no 'true' neutral, and a D&D player will say that the Palladium alignments are restrictive, because it tells you what your character will and won't do. Blah blah, to me it's so much pointless arguing, you like one, you don't like the other, fine, I like both, my choice.

I do play in both D20 games, and a Rifts game each and every week, and I think they both are fun, and have a great time at both. I like the variety.

Grymhammer

[Dr. Doom III]

Becuse they are poopy heads.

[grymhammer]

Becuse they are poopy heads.

They'd say the same. Maybe we're all poopy heads?

[Mech-Viper Prime]

because we have in door plumbing

[Killer Cyborg]

I swear I already posted a response, but I can't find it.
Three conclusions:
1. I am somehow just missing it.
2. It's been deleted.
3. I somehow screwed up the posting.

The thing is, if it's been deleted then it would have been nice for a little PM letting me know why... that way I can try rephrasing things a bit if I need to.
On the other hand, if I'm the one who screwed up the post then I don't need to rephrase things.

I'll give it some time and try again.

[Jesterzzn]

I swear I already posted a response, but I can't find it.
Three conclusions:
1. I am somehow just missing it.
2. It's been deleted.
3. I somehow screwed up the posting.

The thing is, if it's been deleted then it would have been nice for a little PM letting me know why... that way I can try rephrasing things a bit if I need to.
On the other hand, if I'm the one who screwed up the post then I don't need to rephrase things.

I'll give it some time and try again.

I think I remember your post...maybe not. Oh well, I have had 3 or 4 deletes in the 3 weeks I have been on these forums, with no word as to why.

[Colonel Wolfe]

D20 is overbalanced and overmunchkin, and characters are minmaxed no matter what you do.

OverBalanced?
1 : OUTWEIGH
2 : to cause to lose balance.

The system which has an Inherent Balance built in is prone to being out of Balance?

OverMunchkin? is that Possible... Tycoil says Munchkin is a Noun...

Hmm, Min-Maxed? I wonder how many Peopel put the Highest Atribute in Mental Endurance (ME) and their Lowest in PP when playing a Mecha/Robot Pilot? not many i know of.
I've Played a Expert in D&D3, its Quite a good Class. I wanted to play an Unlikely hero type... I was a Blacksmith who took up the Sword to Defend my Home... my Highest stats was a 13, and it was Chrasma... I played him for 4 months, and at 3rd level I Duel Classed in to Warrior after Traning in the Town Milita...

all Games are What you make of it, and Saying one Game is "Munchkin" compared to anyother is kinda Like Saying people who Like Coke are Morons... a Game System Can't be Munchkin, its players Can be Thou.

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

Becuse they are poopy heads.

Always speaking the truth, Dr. Doom.

*Bows graciously*

[Dustin Fireblade]

Doom your an ignorent bastard and don't be so quick to judge d20. Have you even played it? And Palladium and Rifts wouln't be here if it wasn't for d20 flagship game D&D since D&D was the first successful RPG. Also why are Rifts player so inclined toward munchkinism its given Palladium and Rifts a bad name. Plus no one even nknows Palladium does SDC games and has any games other then Rifts.

Dude, chill. Doom cracked a pretty simple joke. Thats all.

Only Rifts players I ever see do muchkin are MOSTLY under the age of 20, and that really goes for any game
And plenty of people know Palladium does other games as well. I visit most of the major RPG boards so I know this to be true.

[LDMcFear™]

Doom your an ignorent bastard and don't be so quick to judge d20. Have you even played it? And Palladium and Rifts wouln't be here if it wasn't for d20 flagship game D&D since D&D was the first successful RPG. Also why are Rifts player so inclined toward munchkinism its given Palladium and Rifts a bad name. Plus no one even nknows Palladium does SDC games and has any games other then Rifts.

Dude, chill. Doom cracked a pretty simple joke. Thats all.

Only Rifts players I ever see do muchkin are MOSTLY under the age of 20, and that really goes for any game
And plenty of people know Palladium does other games as well. I visit most of the major RPG boards so I know this to be true.

I'm with Dustin on this one

[cornholioprime]

Because they are poopy heads.

Doom your an ignorent bastard and don't be so quick to judge d20. Have you even played it? And Palladium and Rifts wouln't be here if it wasn't for d20 flagship game D&D since D&D was the first successful RPG. Also why are Rifts player so inclined toward munchkinism its given Palladium and Rifts a bad name. Plus no one even nknows Palladium does SDC games and has any games other then Rifts.

Did anyone else BESIDES ME think/suspect that this Guy is biased towards D&D and was just dying for an excuse to set the Question up????

Say there, Furball, that's a MIGHTY HARSH rebuttal to what was obviously a Joke on Doom III's part.

HUMOR.

Say it with me, Chewie.


HUUUUUU-MOOOORRRRRRR.......

By your extremely unwarranted -and uptight -response , it looks to ME as if you've just given D&Ders a Bad Name......

[Sureshot]

Doom your an ignorent bastard and don't be so quick to judge d20. Have you even played it? And Palladium and Rifts wouln't be here if it wasn't for d20 flagship game D&D since D&D was the first successful RPG. Also why are Rifts player so inclined toward munchkinism its given Palladium and Rifts a bad name. Plus no one even nknows Palladium does SDC games and has any games other then Rifts.

Dude, chill. Doom cracked a pretty simple joke. Thats all.

Only Rifts players I ever see do muchkin are MOSTLY under the age of 20, and that really goes for any game
And plenty of people know Palladium does other games as well. I visit most of the major RPG boards so I know this to be true.

I'm with Dustin on this one

Count me in too. Your counter post was unnecessarily harsh. Behavior like that can and will justifably get you a warning from the mods. Or worse get you banned.

[Killer Cyborg]

Doom's response was immature, but it was an obvious joke.
The proper response would be not to respond.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Ever Try to play D20 games past 10th level?
Most Threats to your character after this level are insane. anything less then CR 11 is a joke to you now. Most Saving throws are easily passed even if the saving throw is 20. Most of your skills will beat 20 easily and 30 with only some difficulty.

I can see you point, a Min Maxxed Character can Surely have every Save about 15 by Lev 10, while More Balanced Characters will have its Best Save Class around 12 (if they have a 20 in the Linked Atribute).
Where do you get that nothing below CR 11 is a Threat? a CR 10 encounter is Balanced for a group of 5 PC's, of Corse a CR5 encounter is easy, thats why it nets you 500 exp, veruses a CR 10 that nets 3000 exp.

but then Again, how Balanced is a Vagabond to a Cosmo Knight?

the Epic characters are even more insane. lvl 69 to be able to cast an area Affect Massive Fireball?

I hope'd hope after the 600 gaming sessions it Takes to get to level 69, and the 2,415,000 EXP you need to get to the Level, you can do something pretty awesome.... and Since a CR 20 only Nets a level Group of PC's 6,000 exp.... It is gonna take forever to earn the exp to Reach Epic levels, much less the 60's.

Please read WOTC's boards, and look at the most Favorite thing to make there. Munchkins. And You have hundreds of feats to help you make them. Look at the master Samurai in sword and fist, At10(Fighter)/10th level(master Samurai) you become the most insane samurai ever in existance, even better at fighting then a OA 3 20th level Samurai.

I really Hope someone who is a 10th Level Master Samurai, is Pretty Freekin Awesome. Heck I'd want a Level 1 Master Samurai to be Darn awesome...
and Of corse he's better then the OA Samurai, he's a Master Samuria.. why else be Called a "Master" if your The same as a normal Samuria.
as for the WOTC Boards... yeah I've seen the Power Combos people post... guess what? none of them Make Sense form an Role playing point of View. and your Still not getting it, Thats the Players, not the System.

these forums have their Fair share of Munchkins.... the only Reason WOTc has more Munckins... it has Around 30 times the Fan base posting on their Forums...

WOTC forums: Members: 103,869
Palladium: We have 3063 registered users


I saw one where A Monk who become a Barbarian so he has the Aditional 10ft per Melee movemnt... and can Rage, then Joins the Paladin Knighthood so he can Lay on hands, the Adopts a Prestige Class from another book... it Great people have the time to find these Combos... and I bet they are really Cool in Tournament Play, but I'd never Talk a GM in to Letting My Monk become a Barbarian... just to get the aditional powers that Class gives.

a Game is what you make out of it... you've Taken the Time to nit-pick problems you percieve with the D20 system, and thats great... I Like to have fun playing a RPG when i get to, and try to avoid stressing on thesystem the Gm uses.

[demos606]

I'm gonna come right out and say D&D(3e) is more munchin friendly than rifts with the average GM. Sadly enough, the average 3e GM isn't adjusting the critter strengths to the munchinized levels of the characters to continue to provide a challenge so yes, anything below CR11 pretty much *is* a joke to the average group. I've always had to find ways to..... discourage my AD&D(2e) groups from over munchkinizing because they all wanted gods at 1st lvl - 3e only made it far too easy to do just that and for various reasons I refuse to be associated with 3e.

ANY game system can be munchkined by a determined enough player and a.... creative gm will simply munchkin the critters to an appropriate level along the way.

[Drakenred®™©]

when I mentioned over on the GURPS Traveller boards I was playing Rifts one person replied: "Isn't that the powergamer's wet dream ?"

but a lot of the GURPS guys play Rifts, that's how I got into it actually.

Traveler, where people brag about having the hottest fighter in their hanger and when you look at a line rendering of it it looks like a soupcan with windows

Where people have wet dreams over spaceships that have more straight lines to them than a wanabe don wan who dosent realise hes in a Lesbian Bar..

all you have to do is show them Any art no matter how bad in any RIFTS book and Boom! they are hooked!

[Drakenred®™©]

I'm gonna come right out and say D&D(3e) is more munchin friendly than rifts with the average GM. Sadly enough, the average 3e GM isn't adjusting the critter strengths to the munchinized levels of the characters to continue to provide a challenge so yes, anything below CR11 pretty much *is* a joke to the average group. I've always had to find ways to..... discourage my AD&D(2e) groups from over munchkinizing because they all wanted gods at 1st lvl - 3e only made it far too easy to do just that and for various reasons I refuse to be associated with 3e.

ANY game system can be munchkined by a determined enough player and a.... creative gm will simply munchkin the critters to an appropriate level along the way.

I take it you have not seen the new dual classing that is in unearthed arcania?

Bascicaly you take 2 classes and pull the best bits from each, so say you want a Rouge-Mage you get the hitpoints and skills of the theif, the skill selection of both classes, the Spells of a mage, and the better of the saving thows

although to be honest with people useing that system I have yet to see anyone who is not a monk-mage

[Drakenred®™©]

Any of you ever tried to go up agains Elminster. He can take on MOST D&D Dragons, and could probably WIN!!!

B]] I used to play and collect that Game extensively; and from the get-go, they NEVER loved the Merging of Magic and Technology. ALL Kingdoms must look like [blah], all Fighter Types must wield [Blah], and so on, and so on.

To this day, AFAIK, GUNPOWDER STILL DOESN'T WORK IN THEIR GAME (SOME OF US WERE BEGINNING TO DEVELOP CANNONS, MUSKETS, AND OTHER BALLISTA/ARTILLERY; BIG NO-NO)............

..

I was having a talk with some people at Gencon a couple of years ago (this was I think after the 2E stats for the Chosen of Mystra were published) and I Mentioned that I always treated the "published" level of certain Relms NPCs (Emisnter, Storm, and a couple of others) as being + the groups level because obviously they are not going to be sitting around on their duffs since they are suposed to be the ones who are always working on keeping the Relms from imploding every 20 seconds, and besides, they are the D.E.M. thats suposed to be working in the background out of the groupes line of sight so the group can feel heroic about keeping the city they are currently in from finding itself burried under a demon hord they unwitingly let lose who plan on imploding the relms (or something like that) when the person I was talking to called Ed over and introduced him to me.

Ed had some interesting observations back then on why things happen the way they do over at what used to be TSR. Its Ironic to see the trend continue.

As for Eminster, well we are talking about the guy who took out a minor kingdom and its army with just a ring of regeneration (that he kept giving to someone else) a wand of magic missles, a ring of protection that exploded, and his pipe when he could not use his own magic. (he also had an army of rebelious citizens who all were aparently 2-5th level fighters) But then we are talking about the Forgotten Relms, where eveyone but a starting player charater is 1D4+1 level.

As for gunpowder, well its one of thoes things, The reality was that early cannon and muskets were often almost as dangerous to the person useing the gun as to the person your aiming at, they were not all that accurate untill the invetion of rifleing, and trying to balance that reality with the Eril Flyn vs the Pirates of Pensance image of just what you can do with a brace of wheelock pistoles is tricky enough in a system where everthing in it is a cludge fix to start with.

[Killer Cyborg]

I'm gonna come right out and say D&D(3e) is more munchin friendly than rifts with the average GM. Sadly enough, the average 3e GM isn't adjusting the critter strengths to the munchinized levels of the characters to continue to provide a challenge so yes, anything below CR11 pretty much *is* a joke to the average group. I've always had to find ways to..... discourage my AD&D(2e) groups from over munchkinizing because they all wanted gods at 1st lvl - 3e only made it far too easy to do just that and for various reasons I refuse to be associated with 3e.

ANY game system can be munchkined by a determined enough player and a.... creative gm will simply munchkin the critters to an appropriate level along the way.

I've had the exact opposite experience. Generally, 3.5 AD&D is tough for starting characters and it only get's tougher as you gain XP.
My main complaint about the game is that the monster CRs seem to be built using min-maxed characters as standard, so a weaker character doesn't have much chance in pregenerated adventures.
And at high level (especially Epic), things get far more deadly... because there are more and more "Save or Die" type spells. You can either focus on pumping up one save enough to save reliably, in which case you will eventually be hit in one of your weak areas and killed. Or you can try to balance all your saves so you have an okay chance in all areas, but then you're still going to get nailed by an instant kill spell eventually because your saves aren't that good.
We've found that total party kills aren't unusual, and at Epic Level the party usually loses a member and has to rest up for a day or two after every battle.

[maasenstodt]

PB is for when the rules don't matter and you want to take the reigns off.

While I agree generally with your comments, I think that the statement I quoted is not universally applicable. While Rifts certainly crosses that line, games like Systems Failure and PFRPG are reasonably consistent and tight.

[Sentinel]

My personal opinion:
Rifts' in and of itself isn ot Munchkin. But, It can be.
MDC, lets' face it objectively, is not scaled or balannced well. It makes Rifts' look munchkin because supposedly, a 1d4 laser pistol can obliterate a building (an oversimplification, but not without some merit).
There is a power creep as new weapons and equipment are introduced, in an effort to appear cooler or desireable to players, or to correct some shortcoming from previously available items. We say"sniper rifles don't do enough damage", so in the next world book, a new crop of rifles would be added which raise the scales in damage. Then, others cry "foul", so armour gets upgraded.
Some players like playing dragons, because they like the majestic power and such, and are more interested in role-playing one of these mystic creatures of legend. Others like the fact that dragons can kick tanks over. That's not the games fault, and if Palladium allows you to play a dragon and d20/D&D doesn't, then where are the munchkin players to go? (Hades, hopefully).
I lost interest in AD&D back at 1st ed, and while I regained some enthusiasm for 2nd ed, I didn't go back. I liked Palladium more. It had nothing to do with the power level (I could get more power out of DC Heroes, Champions or Marvel SuperHeroes), but rather the presentation of these characters of all diffeent power levels. The system wasn't perfect, but what system is? I found as a GM, that if I thought something was too powerful for my game or if there were something I didn't like, then I didn't have to allow it ( I have never let a player choose Karmic Power in ant HU game I've ever run. I hate that power). But, I didn't need the game to "lock-out" things like player character dragons for me: I could allow them, or not as I saw fit.
I've read d20 books, and talked to players of some of the games: they are welcome to them, but I personally haven't found anything to make me want to switch, and enough to make me happy to stay where I am.
Besdies, you can find Munchkins in anywhere (except Hades where they belong), and in any game. If there are more of them in Rifts, maybe it's because Rifts doesn't try to restrict your characters to what the System wants, and allows the players and GMs to make their own minds and establish their own parameters.
Heaven forbid if I should so foolish as to think I can handle running my game my way and not the designers way.

[Killer Cyborg]

Reposting what I tried to post earlier:

Why do D20 players call Rifts players "Munchkins?"

D20 is an extremely tight and well balanced system. It can become messed up if the GM doesn't take the quirks and power level of a specific party into account, but that's true of any RPG.
Rifts started off extremely balanced (although still not a balanced as D20), but it has gotten way off track. Also, the system is a LOT looser (To the extend that no two Rifts groups play the game the same way)... Not even the writers seem to agree on the rules. The only balancing factor is the GM, and a lot of GM's let their players get away with far too much.
Really, the looseness of Palladium's system (All the inconsistancies, the errors, the gaps, etc.) give players one heck of a lot more leeway in making munchkin characters than D20 does.
So Rifts has become a haven for Munchkins... Not that Palladium has a monopoly on them or anything, but they sure do seem to abound.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Isn't ther a D20 Munchkin game?

Munchkin is a d20 product made by SJG.
its a Card Game played along a normal d20 game and is a Pure Joke.

http://www.sjgames.com/munchkin/game/

This is even how the Designer Describes the game:

"This award-winning card game, designed by Steve Jackson, captures the essence of the dungeon experience . . . with none of that stupid roleplaying stuff."

yes. and all Real D20 gamers know how munchkin they are.

ah yes, a True Munchkin such are AngryJack would be an Expert on what is and isn't Munchkin in the wolrd of RPG's.

[Vrykolas2k]

Any game is open to munchkinism. A funny word.
I have played the 3rd incarnation of D&D, and we have a very definate munchkin in the group. I won't go into specifics, but the lad surely does try everyone's patience. But, when we play Rifts, he whines because he can't do the things to that game that he does in D&D.
Then again, I run Rifts, and I'm nae a push-over like the fellow who runs D&D is.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I'm gonna come right out and say D&D(3e) is more munchin friendly than rifts with the average GM. Sadly enough, the average 3e GM isn't adjusting the critter strengths to the munchinized levels of the characters to continue to provide a challenge so yes, anything below CR11 pretty much *is* a joke to the average group. I've always had to find ways to..... discourage my AD&D(2e) groups from over munchkinizing because they all wanted gods at 1st lvl - 3e only made it far too easy to do just that and for various reasons I refuse to be associated with 3e.

if you wantto compare Munckin Crap.
2nd Ed. Kits.
a 1st Level Fighter/Theif/Mage Drow Blade Singer Kit was brought to a AD&D game i was in.
The DM allowed him to keep all his Drow powers, but only at Night or underground. He had a +9 to attack, Could Cast Spells, had an AC of 2 w/o Armor and Spells. All Thanks to the Aplication of a Kit.

Needless to Say this guy was Able to Roll entire Groups of Monster Solo, and never get hit.

even without the Kits.
a Level 1 Fighter Specalised and Focused in Darts.
Can Throw 4 per Round, With a +5 to hit, +8 to Damage.
the best a Orc could hope for in 2nd ed as 10hp... and this guy needed to Roll a 2 on a D3 to kill 1 in one hit...

Second Ed. only got Worse from there.

No Dragon could Survive a Party of 10th level or Higher PC's. Especially in the Typical "Dragons Lair" encounter where it would be unable to fl away easily.
The Dart Master Above could Plow Through a 20hd Dragond with Maxx HP's in 6 Rounds.

in 3.X Dragons became monsters to be Feared. and Even the Lowly orc Can advance him self above the 1HD Peon. (and the lame Throw 4-5 darts per round at level 1 went away)

ANY game system can be munchkined by a determined enough player and a.... creative gm will simply munchkin the critters to an appropriate level along the way.

yes, This is True. but no Game System is any more Munchkin friendly then another... except maybe White wolfe... under the Guise of "Story telling" existis some truely Muncking useable powers...

[Colonel Wolfe]

Any game is open to munchkinism. A funny word.
I have played the 3rd incarnation of D&D, and we have a very definate munchkin in the group. I won't go into specifics, but the lad surely does try everyone's patience. But, when we play Rifts, he whines because he can't do the things to that game that he does in D&D.
Then again, I run Rifts, and I'm nae a push-over like the fellow who runs D&D is.

do a Role Reversal, you run D&D, and the Push-over runs Rifts...

How bad could the Munchkin Truely get?
Rifts lets Alot of Rules be left up to the GM... or Very open to interpetation... the Same Munckin is More limited by the D20 Rules, where the Rules are very set in stone.
Munckins who have free reign in Rifts pull out things Like:
3rd level true Atlanteen Mind Melter who becomes a Gunslinger (using the Duel Class rules), who becomes a Mega-Juicer (by passes the Duelclass rules, sinve you can buy the Mega Conversion).

[Vrykolas2k]

Any game is open to munchkinism. A funny word.
I have played the 3rd incarnation of D&D, and we have a very definate munchkin in the group. I won't go into specifics, but the lad surely does try everyone's patience. But, when we play Rifts, he whines because he can't do the things to that game that he does in D&D.
Then again, I run Rifts, and I'm nae a push-over like the fellow who runs D&D is.

do a Role Reversal, you run D&D, and the Push-over runs Rifts...

How bad could the Munchkin Truely get?
Rifts lets Alot of Rules be left up to the GM... or Very open to interpetation... the Same Munckin is More limited by the D20 Rules, where the Rules are very set in stone.
Munckins who have free reign in Rifts pull out things Like:
3rd level true Atlanteen Mind Melter who becomes a Gunslinger (using the Duel Class rules), who becomes a Mega-Juicer (by passes the Duelclass rules, sinve you can buy the Mega Conversion).

I don't see how that is a viable combination. And, it would take months of real-time to save up the money, and do the training... and it would effectively put the character out for months as he/ she adjusted to the juicer conversion.

[Colonel Wolfe]

I don't see how that is a viable combination. And, it would take months of real-time to save up the money, and do the training... and it would effectively put the character out for months as he/ she adjusted to the juicer conversion.

Not if you have a Push Over GM who you ingores Rules or is unaware of the Rules. the Golden rule in Rifts is "If you dont like it change it" its not to hard for a Lax GM to let a Munchkin get away with anything. PLus thats just one Example, Let me get my Rifts books out of the Attic and in time i could pull out some Terrible things... all system Legal, and all less then 10th level.

[demos606]

No Dragon could Survive a Party of 10th level or Higher PC's. Especially in the Typical "Dragons Lair" encounter where it would be unable to fl away easily.
The Dart Master Above could Plow Through a 20hd Dragond with Maxx HP's in 6 Rounds.

Dont know what darts your boy was using but the way I run dragons, the group wasn't getting 6 rounds of combat to take one down before at least one of them dies.

1) Dragons are *never* surprised in their lair
2) Dragons will *always* have the nastiest traps available
3) Dragons *never* have a problem with people being killed by their traps
If you want to argue good dragons not using such tactics, anyone looking to do legit business will approach openly instead of skulking around its lair uninvited - no mercy for thieves
4) Did I mention magical traps with multiple unresistable components and heavy enchantments?
5) Dragons have had the magical toys in their treasure hordes for years and have long since divined every keyword and power for every toy (with the possible exception of holy avengers) and have no problem using their toys to lethal effect.
6) Spells - all dragons have em and should be more than willing to use em to destroy thieving PCs.


My groups hated dragons on a scale that most GMs cant inspire with beholders, mindflayers and githyanki all at once - even approaching 20+ they didn't want to see dragons.

[Drakenred®™©]

I have noticed a trend in 3-E advocates who call other games munchkin topretend that Official sourcebooks sutch as Ghostwalk(who cares if you die, become a ghost for a while untill you can get your body back again and again and again and again, Heck its actualy better than the Mega power version of imortality in HU!), UA, BOED /BOVD, EPH, Ebboron and any of a dozen annualy published Presige classes dont exist when they make the clame that X is a munchkin paridice and the system is ballanced

I guess they will not mind if I bring my half God-half Dragon Monk-Mage to the game, Since Im going to be useing the power point system for spells.

[cornholioprime]

This has been an interesting thread. I notice a lot of vehemence among gamers of different systems and ultimately I can't figure out what point it serves.

If you hate D&D or d20 games in general, surprise! You don't have to play them! Likewise to the D&D/d20 players regarding Rifts!

I play both Rifts and 3/3.5 D&D. I like them both. They both have their inconsistencies and quirks. They both present a system that can be manipulated to suit the power gamer or the munchkin or the role player. Here's the best part: Both games can be controlled by a competent GM.

If you know your campaign, then you know what will work and will make your life more difficult as a GM. If you want to control the power of the characters, control the flow of the game and the power acquired. (Note: this does not mean railroad!).

The vast majority of d20 D&D sourcebooks are optional material. Don't incorporate them.
You also don't have to allow every Rifts sourcebook and world book into the game.

People who complain about munchkins simply have themselves to blame.

Believe it or not, I have been saying the EXACT same thing toi a friend of mine who would sooner be Xombified by Nxla rather than even OPEN a Rifts Book. I've been saying what YOU'VE been saying, that ultimately it's up to the GM in any Game to control the Outcome, but he seems to act as if "If the BOOK don't tell me what Restrictions to set on the Players, then I'M not gonna do it!!!!" He even hates many of the D20 Books!!!


Ultra-Purist to the end I guess.....

[grymhammer]

This has been an interesting thread. I notice a lot of vehemence among gamers of different systems and ultimately I can't figure out what point it serves.

If you hate D&D or d20 games in general, surprise! You don't have to play them! Likewise to the D&D/d20 players regarding Rifts!

I play both Rifts and 3/3.5 D&D. I like them both. They both have their inconsistencies and quirks. They both present a system that can be manipulated to suit the power gamer or the munchkin or the role player. Here's the best part: Both games can be controlled by a competent GM.

If you know your campaign, then you know what will work and will make your life more difficult as a GM. If you want to control the power of the characters, control the flow of the game and the power acquired. (Note: this does not mean railroad!).

The vast majority of d20 D&D sourcebooks are optional material. Don't incorporate them.
You also don't have to allow every Rifts sourcebook and world book into the game.

People who complain about munchkins simply have themselves to blame.

Very nicely put Lord of Bones. Both sides will harp on the other, claiming power gaming, when all it comes down to is group preference. If your group likes power gaming, you'd power game no matter what system you play. I've played both, I've had problems with both, but you know what? I like both, I'll keep playing both, no matter what the two groups would say about each other!

Grymhammer

[Killer Cyborg]

I like both, and I'll keep playing both.
But D20 is the more balanced, less munchkin-prone system.
Sad but true.
On the other hand, I've seen more people actually flesh out characters in Rifts... y'know, beyond the hack and slash "what can I kill" mentality.

[SkyeFyre]

Simple... because it's a high powered game, and gives the impression that we're all rocket launcher, laser eyed, shielded super beings that walk around smoking everything without role playing.

They forget to take into account that the enemy also has this, or that stuff isn't always available and we don't always use it. There are so many settings you can do in RIFTS it's amazing. I think it's mainly a comparison in power level between D&D and RIFTS... like really... I'd love to walk into a D&D game with a Wilks... watch the little suckers run... AR? or THAC0?... pfft... you dead.

I have nothing wrong with D&D, I've tried it... I didn't mind it... but I just love the freedom that PB gives... the settings.. it was PB that got me started on role playing and I shall stay loyal to the end.

[Colonel Wolfe]

No Dragon could Survive a Party of 10th level or Higher PC's. Especially in the Typical "Dragons Lair" encounter where it would be unable to fl away easily.
The Dart Master Above could Plow Through a 20hd Dragond with Maxx HP's in 6 Rounds.

Dont know what darts your boy was using but the way I run dragons, the group wasn't getting 6 rounds of combat to take one down before at least one of them dies.

Regular Darts, under 1st Ed. the Same Style of Character could Roll aGragon in 2 rounds, as double Specalization was possible... x2 the Rate fo Fire and Double the bonus (+2 hit, +4 dmg) giving him 8 Darts per round doing 1D3 + 9 (with a Decent Strenght). with the least damage possible he can kill a 20HD Dragon with Max HP's in 2 rounds.

thats the Way you run them... thats not the Case with every GM, Personally I like Great Wyrm Dragons to be things even 20+ people fear... but I've played in 2nd ed games where a 10th level PC wears Greatwyrm DragonScale armor.... and had more then a Dozen Dragon kills.
not to Mention in 1st ed you can hit to subdue, and Make the Dragon your ally.

[demos606]

My personal policy with every gaming system Ive ever used has been to take what I like and modify the rest until I can live with it - and be very certain the players know the differences going in. There are things I dislike about most gaming systems and simply won't use in my campaigns, usually stuffs that's too flexible to make good sense.

[kamikazzijoe]

I used to play both palldium and 3.0 at school and i'd have to say in DnD its easier to be a munchkin by the book. I like the idea of having prestige classes to work towards, but every book published has a dozen new ones each slightly more powerful than the last book. While 99% of the Pclasses won't unbalance the game on its own, the combos of two or more just destroy it. That 1% included a class where no one would notice you unless you attacked, but then would immidiately forget you after the attack and forget they were damaged. The change to 3.5 was just a mess. Sudedenly a deamon has no chance in hell of killing another deamon because they're claws now hurt angels damage reduction instead of deamon damage reduction. Back in our palladium munchkin phase we usually had to make something up that wasn't in the books (usually along the lines taping guns or swords together)
Epic DnD monsters have one of two situations: you can't hurt it or it can't hurt you. The cost of epic equipment is way out of the characters budgets and epic magic worth using takes a whole level of experience. Speaking of exp, situation two lets characters beat CRs far higher than the party level so the experience with its exponential adjusters can come out at over 1 million for a simple encounter. We finally changed the system to where earned levels and epic spells for an adventure.
Then palladium has the other problem with experience:
level 1 kill a baby dragon = 300 exp or 1/7 the next level
level 10 kill an adult dragon = 300 exp or not worth marking cause its nowhere close to the next level.
Though I'd have to say the most munchkiness part of DnD is true resurection. Once you have cash you never have to worry about dying. They don't even need a body and you can be resurected. In all palladium books, death is almost always final.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Though I'd have to say the most munchkiness part of DnD is true resurection. Once you have cash you never have to worry about dying. They don't even need a body and you can be resurected. In all palladium books, death is almost always final.

The only Problem with that is, Ressurection is a Main part of alomst every RPG.

Even in 1st Ed. Ressurection needed but the smaller part of a body... a finger or hair sample. and could Ressurect people who had been dead up to 2000 years...
The Changes in 3rd made it a bit more powerful, but a lot weaker... only 10 years of time per caster level, but dont need a body...

even then it costs a Minimus of 25K gp, plus a Donation to a Cleric if you lack on in your group.
but First you have to find a Level 17 Cleric, who would only be in the Largest Cities on the planet, then convince him to ressurect someone who may not be the same faith as the Cleric (its completly out if hes of opposit alingment/faith)
Plus a Minimum of 1530gp, plus the componet cost.
26,530 gp... not cheap to any PC.

a Raise dead costs 5000 to 5450 gp+ depending on if you havea cleric in group who can cast it, or a gettign an NPc to cast it...

Death in Palladium is much more permenant... but its Much harder to Die... a Level 1 fighter in D&D has 10-17 hps (based on feats & Con)
Where a Level on PC in Rifts uauslly has PE+D6, and 10-30 Base SDC.
Weapon damages are about the same in both systems, and its Generally NPC's have a Damage bonuse in D&D. (most NPC Warrior type have a 12 or 14 in Str)
as Well as Palladium PC's Opposed Defense system makes them more Likely to Block Damage.

this is all Assuming a base SDC setting, once you get to MDC is gets ton worse... sure one hit will kill an unarmored PC... but almost every OCC has body armro in their base equipment, and many Start with an Armored Vehical, or are natrually MDC.

[Killer Cyborg]

I dont see how gamers who use an XP system based entirely on kills can call Palladium games "munchkins"

D20 xp isn't entirely based on kills.

[Colonel Wolfe]

C]]They ALSO hate the Alignments (and I know, for I used to think that way, too) that Rifts provides for. ALL Chaotic Characters MUST be at least a little crazy, ALL Diabolic Evil Characters MUST be out to destroy the world, and ALL Lawful Good Characters are in danger of losing their Alignments (and any Abilities/Feats that go with them) if they even sleep with the Barmaid. Little or no "shades of grey." A little Comic-Bookish, IMO..........

What version of the D&D Alingments did you Read?
I'm very sure your looking at a Second ed. Alingment view...
as no whee in the 3rd ed books dose it say a Cahaotic person has to be insane.
and Sleeping with a Barmaid isnt an alignment Violation... getting her Drunk then Rapeing her would be.... holding her sister hostage to make her do the deed would be... just meeting her, and having a good ol time is okay, even solisiting a Prostitute is okay for a Lawful good person, as Long as Prostution isnt a Crime.

I think...I THINK that there is a spell check button somewhere around here........

I think this could fall under Flame baiting....
Reason for mispellings? The spell check button don't work, so i dont worry about it.

[Vrykolas2k]

Seems like a lot of people are commenting on whether or not "Paladium" games are munchkiny. The original poster said RIFTS, not Paladium in general. While I have seen many "Rifts is pure munchkin heaven" type comments I've never seen such comments about Palladium in general.

A lot of it seems to go along the lines of "Its so munchkiny - you have handguns that level houses!" Which is rather silly. Its not the base power level of the game that determines munchkinism. That would be like a Call of Cthulu player saying "D&D is so munchkiney - you have characters that can shoot bolts of fire and turn invisible!" Power scale is just power scale. I think such accusations are way off base.

However, I think people who actually know about Rifts can make more accurate munchkin claims. It is a system with absolutely no internal sense of balance whatsoever. If you want to make a character that is a supernaturally powerful species, with a potent and effective character class, and deck her out in deadly mega armor and lethal weapons there is no reason you can't. You don't have limited resources with which to build your character. You don't need to invest in a lot of skills to make such things work. You don't reduce your advancement by diversifying over a lot of abilities. Powerful effects generally have few or no drawbacks over weaker effects.

Hey, you can too throw lightning bolts and turn invisible in Call of Cthulhu!!! Of course, you go INSANE as well...

[Killer Cyborg]

I think people who actually know about Rifts can make more accurate munchkin claims. It is a system with absolutely no internal sense of balance whatsoever.

Not really true.
Rifts was, when it first came out, a very well balanced system.
It's only after all the power creep of later books that balance was thrown out the window.

[Shadow Wyrm]

Why do D20 players think Rift's players are munchkins. Well that a good question and everyone here hs come up with some good idea's. The true is both systems are prone to munchkinizm. The differance is just timeing. In Rift's you get the majority of your power in the first couple of levels, D20 is just the opposite. In D20 your build your charactor over the levels. I know this fact well because I'm a long time Rift's player and GM, but I had a chance to get out from behind the screen if I joinded a D&D game. I took it. I have been playing Rift'ss for 10 years now and I had never played D&D.
I remember starting out, for I feelt scared playing a weak 1hd psion (kinda like a mind melter). I thought how can anyone stand being some guy who has to avoid housecat's becuase they might attack and kill him. Now my Psion is 16th level and I make a Rift's Mind Melter look like a cub scout with a BB-gun. For a hardcore D20 guy the concept of 20-30 hp at first level must seem a little munchkin to the guy, cause on top of that there's this wierd thing called SDC. In Rift's you start out with armor and weapons that can level a small town, D20 your lucky to get a +1 sword and your happy to get it. What people miss is that unlike D20 which is a little over balanced, your lucky to make 5th level in Rift's. Because there is S#$T out there that will kill you, and there' no cleric in town to bring your back from the dead. Your lucky if enough of you survives long enough to get poured into a cyborg boby.

Us Rift's players may seem a little munchy, but if thats what it takes to get the job jone. Then that's what I'll take. It take more than a +1 sword to make it in Rift's.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

dont know an 1st wilderness scout with a sniper rifle could take a 15th lvl mage or warrior or pilot, or juicer, or dragon, is that munchkin? no that being realistic and worth 2000 exp at most,

[Josh Sinsapaugh]

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

If you don't get how this quote applies here then hold your breath for a minute and smack yourself in the head with a Hardcover book before you exhale.

[Dr. Doom III]

Not really true.
Rifts was, when it first came out, a very well balanced system.
It's only after all the power creep of later books that balance was thrown out the window.

???
Dragons, Glitterboys, Borgs and Rogue Scholars.

Game balance is overrated.
Doom sticks with the poopiehead answer.