What machines work in dimensions with Energy Matrix: None?

[Warshield73]

For those of you who are not aware in Dimension builder there are several characteristics that define the dimension you are creating. Most are straightforward but energy matrix is a little unusual. It was created as a way to stop dimensional travelers from brining high-tech weapons into a fantasy setting or limiting the ability to move technology from one dimension to another.

Dimensional Energy Matrix: Each dimension has its own unique signature that can be identified on a quantum level. This signature resonates a certain harmonic that determines how energy is transferred in the dimension. The harmonics resonate at different frequencies, producing four distinct matrices. They are positive, negative, neutral, and universal. What type of energy your technology works with determines whether or not it will function in other dimensions.

None: Advanced technology will not function at all in this dimension. Only organic and simple mechanical properties will work. Better break out the crossbows and swords!

So couple questions to start off with my answers:
1) What simple machines would work in these dimensions?

Spoiler:

It says simple mechanical properties so I assume that means basic machines like a mechanical typewriter, clock, steam engines. Anything that can operate without any electrical charge. I also take a page out of the Dresden Files books and assume that the more finely/precisely machined something is the more likely it is to malfunction so while a simple mechanical clock will work anything with delicate springs or gears is likely to break or jam.

2) What Modern Weapons would work in these dimensions?

Spoiler:

Simple is better and again I look to Dresden Files for ideas. Breach loaded rifles and shotguns as well as revolvers probably work pretty well. I think most bolt, pump or lever action weapons with tube magazines might work, I am iffy on it, but they tend to be simpler, not sure about those weapons with detachable magazines. When you get to semi-auto and definitely fully automatic, they breakdown almost instantly.

3) Would Naruni Plasma Cartridge weapons work in these dimensions?

Spoiler:

So for me this depends on how the plasma cartridge works. Is it an electrical charge or a chemical reaction? If electrical then no but a chemical then maybe. I have the same thoughts for grenades and other explosives. If it is a purely a mechanical or chemical detonation then they will work. If it uses an electric circuit though then it doesn't work.

4) Are there any Techno-wizard devices that wouldn't work in these dimensions?

Spoiler:

If you have a magical power source that is powering a tech system then it doesn't work. Everything else, works.

[taalismn]

For Naruni Plasma Cartridges? I'd say NO....the chemical reaction may produce the gas medium that transitions into plasma, but containing and directing the plasma is going to require an electrical charge....in addition to the electrical current that triggers the cartridge.

I've always figured the plasma cartridges to be relatively inert...setting them on fire, you're not going to get a cook-off plasma explosion, at best you get a smoldering chemical fire and, if the surrounding atmosphere is oxygenated enough, a nice hot hydrogen-oxygen reaction. You'd need an electrical field or pulse of the right kind to trigger the plasma reaction and even then, without the containment, pressurization, and EM expulsion provided by the gun, you get a weak cloud of hot plasma that quickly disperses, like cracking open a neon tube.

[Grazzik]

2) What Modern Weapons would work in these dimensions?

"Advanced" is really referencing the nature of energy transformation to perform work.

An automatic rifle operates on some basic mechanical (springs, levers, gas pressure) and chemical principles. The rule of thumb I use is if it doesn't use a battery or similar, it is not advanced in the grand megaversal scheme of things. Basically, if a dimension allows for a campfire, it allows for exothermic chemical reactions like cartridge primers. So a M249 works wonders.

The point is WHAT energy is being used, and that is where basically anything run off a battery or capacitor is inoperable. (Sure, a spring is just a 'capacitor' for potential energy, but that is 'mechanical' in nature). It is not the laser beam or the plasma discharge that is disallowed, it is the use of energy to perform work within the machine to generate the beam.

So using a series of lens to narrow sunlight to start a fire is ok (even lens the size of houses), but solar panels to collect sunlight and convert that energy to a current to operate an oven toaster is not ok.

[taalismn]

Oh good, so my zippo lighter should work just fine?
The spark isn't so much a current as a friction effect, lasting long enough to ignite the fuel vapor.

[Warshield73]

For Naruni Plasma Cartridges? I'd say NO....the chemical reaction may produce the gas medium that transitions into plasma, but containing and directing the plasma is going to require an electrical charge....in addition to the electrical current that triggers the cartridge.

I've always figured the plasma cartridges to be relatively inert...setting them on fire, you're not going to get a cook-off plasma explosion, at best you get a smoldering chemical fire and, if the surrounding atmosphere is oxygenated enough, a nice hot hydrogen-oxygen reaction. You'd need an electrical field or pulse of the right kind to trigger the plasma reaction and even then, without the containment, pressurization, and EM expulsion provided by the gun, you get a weak cloud of hot plasma that quickly disperses, like cracking open a neon tube.

The thing is plasma cartridge weapons have no separate power source. You would think they would need an e-clip to power it but they don't have one. Add to the in WB 11 CS War Campaign pg. 64 it describes a trap you can build with a plasma cartridge where just the pressure of stepping on it causes it to go off. So, as written in the books, it appears that everything is in the cartridge.

"Advanced" is really referencing the nature of energy transformation to perform work.

An automatic rifle operates on some basic mechanical (springs, levers, gas pressure) and chemical principles. The rule of thumb I use is if it doesn't use a battery or similar, it is not advanced in the grand megaversal scheme of things. Basically, if a dimension allows for a campfire, it allows for exothermic chemical reactions like cartridge primers. So a M249 works wonders.

The point is WHAT energy is being used, and that is where basically anything run off a battery or capacitor is inoperable. (Sure, a spring is just a 'capacitor' for potential energy, but that is 'mechanical' in nature). It is not the laser beam or the plasma discharge that is disallowed, it is the use of energy to perform work within the machine to generate the beam.

So using a series of lens to narrow sunlight to start a fire is ok (even lens the size of houses), but solar panels to collect sunlight and convert that energy to a current to operate an oven toaster is not ok.

I look at this from 2 directions. One, a characteristic where a dimension could have no magic and so I view this characteristic as saying no technology. Two, I have been influenced by Dresden Files where magic users can disrupt technology so they can't use computers and they have to drive old cars with no electronics in them but also if they use like semi-automatic weapons they tend to jam and break.

I view this as not just a matter of physics but meta-physics. This is a dimension that is more hostile to technology and since it says simple mechanical properties I tend to think it has a threshold of technology that goes beyond the energy source. I mean it says "break out the swords and crossbows" not "breakout the grenade launchers and AKs".

Oh good, so my zippo lighter should work just fine?
The spark isn't so much a current as a friction effect, lasting long enough to ignite the fuel vapor.

It depends, how finely machined are the pins and springs in that lighter? Could be too high-tech.

[Grazzik]

I view this as not just a matter of physics but meta-physics.

And that is the crux. I agree that should be the interpretation. The way "None" was written within a context of "energy" is a physics context and can be easily literally interpreted... the reference to medieval weapons seen as just an example, not a definitive aspect.

Had the categories been written as a matrix of setting themes (high fantasy magic vs super-science vs stone age survivalist vs etc.), then the metaphysical aspect could be made more clear and the GM adjust expectations accordingly.

[taalismn]

The thing is plasma cartridge weapons have no separate power source. You would think they would need an e-clip to power it but they don't have one. Add to the in WB 11 CS War Campaign pg. 64 it describes a trap you can build with a plasma cartridge where just the pressure of stepping on it causes it to go off. So, as written in the books, it appears that everything is in the cartridge.
[/quote]

That would suggest that each cartridge has a small(and packed) self-destructing electrical battery that feeds into the gun, allowing it to generate the containment and expulsion field. That it be set off by pressure suggests something even more volatile than current lithium batteries.
The same principle seems to be at work with the G-weapons; clip holds enough battery for the number of rounds in it. It's only when you get the bigger semi-portable machine guns and cannons that you start needing an external power source.

[Warshield73]

I view this as not just a matter of physics but meta-physics.

And that is the crux. I agree that should be the interpretation. The way "None" was written within a context of "energy" is a physics context and can be easily literally interpreted... the reference to medieval weapons seen as just an example, not a definitive aspect.

Had the categories been written as a matrix of setting themes (high fantasy magic vs super-science vs stone age survivalist vs etc.), then the metaphysical aspect could be made more clear and the GM adjust expectations accordingly.

I think Gleba wanted to avoid this in favor of making a more flexible system that just gave GMs something to work with. It works too, I wish I had this book a lot earlier in the Rifts timeline than we got it.

It also doesn't appear to be set up for themes as Palladium Fantasy isn't a None but Neutral.

Ultimately what I think is most reasonable is to say that simpler weapons (revolvers, lever action, bolt action, etc.) likely work in these dimensions while the more complicated (semi-automatic and better) might work depending on how the GM wants this dimension to look. The dimension I am working on is one where superpowers, magic and especially psionics rule and a more steampunk aesthetic seems to work here and if automatic weapons work there it opens up other technologies that I want to avoid.

The thing is plasma cartridge weapons have no separate power source. You would think they would need an e-clip to power it but they don't have one. Add to the in WB 11 CS War Campaign pg. 64 it describes a trap you can build with a plasma cartridge where just the pressure of stepping on it causes it to go off. So, as written in the books, it appears that everything is in the cartridge.

That would suggest that each cartridge has a small(and packed) self-destructing electrical battery that feeds into the gun, allowing it to generate the containment and expulsion field. That it be set off by pressure suggests something even more volatile than current lithium batteries.
The same principle seems to be at work with the G-weapons; clip holds enough battery for the number of rounds in it. It's only when you get the bigger semi-portable machine guns and cannons that you start needing an external power source.

I spent an hour or so today reading the descriptions of all the plasma cartridge weapons and honestly they just make no sense. The weapons appear to be just chunks of metal that hold the cartridges. No magnetic fields, no separate power source not even a good...coherent...semi-plausible mechanism for how that chunk of metal fires those cartridges without melting.
I was thinking that these might be interesting weapons to have still work in one of these no tech dimensions but now I'm just wondering how they work in any dimension. So yeah I think I will leave these out of this kind of dimension.

It might make more sense if the cartridge fired out of the gun and then ignited on impact but that doesn't fit the description.

[Curbludgeon]

I don't know, crossbows to plasma cartridges sure is a jump. I'd be inclined to say pocketwatches are out, and firearms of newer design than flintlocks are potentially too fancypants. Of course, with the inclusion of organic properties there's an argument that Splicers style biotech vats would be viable.

[glitterboy2098]

I think it's clear that the intent is for the classic "medieval stasis" setting.. so no gunpowder, no internal combustion, no electrical stuff or radio, etc. stuff like tiny clocks/pocket watches would be up to the GM, since while their creation is complex, they don't use anything beyond conventional mechanical principles (gears, rotors, springs, etc)

I'd say that naruni cartridge weapons definitely would go against the intent, and I personally feel that trying to describe them as 'simple mechanical properties' is being deliberately disingenuous.

[taalismn]

It's almost s if there's some intelligence behind the scenes cherrypicking what works and what doesn't....

[Warshield73]

I think it's clear that the intent is for the classic "medieval stasis" setting.. so no gunpowder, no internal combustion, no electrical stuff or radio, etc. stuff like tiny clocks/pocket watches would be up to the GM, since while their creation is complex, they don't use anything beyond conventional mechanical principles (gears, rotors, springs, etc)

You would think that but like I said in the book PFRPG is described as neutral not none and when Kevin runs it he allows laser rifles to work they are just SDC so no doesn't appear to be. I tend to think gunpowder will work as that is just a chemical reaction. When it comes to things like clocks and stuff my feeling that anything that uses no electricity and can be made by hand is most likely in.

I'd say that naruni cartridge weapons definitely would go against the intent, and I personally feel that trying to describe them as 'simple mechanical properties' is being deliberately disingenuous.

The only reason I even considered these is because I was looking at explosives, what would work and how, so this is out now at least for me.

I don't know, crossbows to plasma cartridges sure is a jump. I'd be inclined to say pocketwatches are out, and firearms of newer design than flintlocks are potentially too fancypants.

I am less restrictive on firearms then you but I think you can totally do that within this description. To me this "None" is the description in this category that would have the greatest variance between dimensions.

Of course, with the inclusion of organic properties there's an argument that Splicers style biotech vats would be viable.

This to me I think is the true reason for the inclusion of none, to give dimensions where organic technology is dominant.

It's almost s if there's some intelligence behind the scenes cherrypicking what works and what doesn't....

Always possible, although in terms of the game mechanics which beings can actually create a dimension is kind of up in the air.

[taalismn]

Always possible, although in terms of the game mechanics which beings can actually create a dimension is kind of up in the air.

There's a rumor they're called GMs....

[Warshield73]

Always possible, although in terms of the game mechanics which beings can actually create a dimension is kind of up in the air.

There's a rumor they're called GMs....

I'm kind of serious about this. In game what beings can actually create a dimension and how much control do they have with its characteristics? I mean I assume the Old Ones could but clearly most Supernatural Intelligences can't.

[taalismn]

I'm kind of serious about this. In game what beings can actually create a dimension and how much control do they have with its characteristics? I mean I assume the Old Ones could but clearly most Supernatural Intelligences can't.

Well, if we include Nightspawn and the Dreamstream, I believe there are dream-realm creators who can set conditions for their pocket-universes.

[Grazzik]

So, this is where we're left to our own devices again.

In DB7, it can be inferred that each "dimension" is distinct from the others due to a significant factor (HU dimension vs Dead Reign dimension) - ignoring that they are using concepts like dimension and plane of existence interchangeably . Other books imply that there may be versions of dimensions based on events large or small (PF that ends up run by elves vs PF run by dwarves).

Write ups on the Nightlands or Shadow dimensions indicate that instances of them may exist in parallel with other dimensions, suggesting that for any given dimension there is a series of parallel dimensions that have certain properties. Leaving one to wonder what a Rifts Earth Nightlands looks like.

Write ups on the Astral plane however imply both plurality in dimensions and singularity for some planes that may serve as a bridge between... one shared inner plane, but access to the megaverse via the corresponding outer planes or sections of the outer plane (unclear on this point).

Pocket dimensions seem to be constructs in the space between and may take on any desired quality depending on the method of their construction. How? Don't know.

Or you might subscribe to the infinitely layered megaverse where each reality differs from their closest counterparts by a single infinitely small factor. However, in this case, all possible instances of pocket dimensions already exist and "creating" one is simply finding and accessing the desired pocket dimension.

To point out the obvious, in the absence of a detailed megaversal cosmology, all of this is meaningless outside our own respective head canon and house rules.

[Curbludgeon]

Dragons & Gods leaves it unanswered if gods themselves are capable of creating deific realms, or simply find them. Spatial Mages, Astral Lords\Mages, and that one astral monster can make comparatively small size realms, and there are a few spells for pocket dimensions, but generally speaking it seems unavailable.

[taalismn]

Write ups on the Nightlands or Shadow dimensions indicate that instances of them may exist in parallel with other dimensions, suggesting that for any given dimension there is a series of parallel dimensions that have certain properties. Leaving one to wonder what a Rifts Earth Nightlands looks like.

Outright nasty, I'd think, with a Nightlord Emperor Prosek and son ruling their own domain.
It would give the Infernal Realms a run for their money.

But that's in keeping with my idea that more radical versions of a universe are easer to access than, say, the one where you decided to get the Mounds bar instead of the Snickers, even though mega cosmically they're right next to each other.

[Warshield73]

I'm kind of serious about this. In game what beings can actually create a dimension and how much control do they have with its characteristics? I mean I assume the Old Ones could but clearly most Supernatural Intelligences can't.

Well, if we include Nightspawn and the Dreamstream, I believe there are dream-realm creators who can set conditions for their pocket-universes.

Dream realms seem temporary and less controllable. Astral kingdoms seem more along the lines of what you see with Megaverse Builder. It has its limits being in the Astral plane but I could see it, but there aren't very many Astral mages or astral lords so not sure how many gods or even alien intelligences could actually make one but could see it. They are also all on the small side. No planet sized or micro-galaxy sized. Even if there was the PPE cost would be unreal.

OK way off topic but looks interesting so I'm going to dive in.

So, this is where we're left to our own devices again.

In DB7, it can be inferred that each "dimension" is distinct from the others due to a significant factor (HU dimension vs Dead Reign dimension) - ignoring that they are using concepts like dimension and plane of existence interchangeably . Other books imply that there may be versions of dimensions based on events large or small (PF that ends up run by elves vs PF run by dwarves).

When I think of my "Palladium Cosmology" I think think in terms of branches
BTS/Rifts Earth is the prime with HU, DR,, NB even TMNT/AtB are all just a alternates of it. Phase World the Three Galaxies are its own thing and each of those can have as many alternates or compounds as you want. Separate from that are Heroic Realms of which I include Palladium World. Again, we know that Palladium itself has at least a few alternates but I kind of doubt that dimensions like Hades or Dyval do.

As for the terms I tend to use alternate dimensions for the big ones and alternate realities for the others but I think as long as you keep the terminology simple and consistent I just don't see a problem.

Write ups on the Nightlands or Shadow dimensions indicate that instances of them may exist in parallel with other dimensions, suggesting that for any given dimension there is a series of parallel dimensions that have certain properties. Leaving one to wonder what a Rifts Earth Nightlands looks like.

The way I read this is each dimension would have its own nightlands and shadow dimension. I tend to say that the Nightlands is unique to just Earth but doesn't have to be. I actually started creating a Nightlands for the Noro home world at one point. The higher the magic energy the more active and easily accessible these realms are.

Write ups on the Astral plane however imply both plurality in dimensions and singularity for some planes that may serve as a bridge between... one shared inner plane, but access to the megaverse via the corresponding outer planes or sections of the outer plane (unclear on this point).

The astral plane is a mess but a really fun one. I tend to think of it as astral planes, plural, with each dimension having it's own but the voind is constant and connecting it all together.

Pocket dimensions seem to be constructs in the space between and may take on any desired quality depending on the method of their construction. How? Don't know.

Most pocket dimensions are described as being pockets inside another dimension. We see a few in PF, some on Rifts, and even a few in the Three Galaxies. It is probably possible to have one in the spaces between but most of the pones I have seen are within a given dimension.

Or you might subscribe to the infinitely layered megaverse where each reality differs from their closest counterparts by a single infinitely small factor. However, in this case, all possible instances of pocket dimensions already exist and "creating" one is simply finding and accessing the desired pocket dimension.

I have never thought of it this way but could work because...

To point out the obvious, in the absence of a detailed megaversal cosmology, all of this is meaningless outside our own respective head canon and house rules.

This, this is why it could work.

Dragons & Gods leaves it unanswered if gods themselves are capable of creating deific realms, or simply find them. Spatial Mages, Astral Lords\Mages, and that one astral monster can make comparatively small size realms, and there are a few spells for pocket dimensions, but generally speaking it seems unavailable.

As most of the Pantheons, at least the ones in RIfts, descend from alien intelligences, I always assumed they created the deific realms and then the gods inherited them, making whatever modifications they could.

Write ups on the Nightlands or Shadow dimensions indicate that instances of them may exist in parallel with other dimensions, suggesting that for any given dimension there is a series of parallel dimensions that have certain properties. Leaving one to wonder what a Rifts Earth Nightlands looks like.

Outright nasty, I'd think, with a Nightlord Emperor Prosek and son ruling their own domain.
It would give the Infernal Realms a run for their money.

But that's in keeping with my idea that more radical versions of a universe are easer to access than, say, the one where you decided to get the Mounds bar instead of the Snickers, even though mega cosmically they're right next to each other.

It depends on what you do with it. If you just add nightlands to the existing setting then you could have existing groups being infiltrated by doppelgangers and other NL minions. I think the biggest thing you need to figure out is what happened to the nightlands when the coming of the rifts happened. How many kingdoms were destroyed? How many NLs are dead? What's left?

I had a lot of fun with them infiltrating the New Navy and Republic of Japan.

[guardiandashi]

So, this is where we're left to our own devices again.

In DB7, it can be inferred that each "dimension" is distinct from the others due to a significant factor (HU dimension vs Dead Reign dimension) - ignoring that they are using concepts like dimension and plane of existence interchangeably . Other books imply that there may be versions of dimensions based on events large or small (PF that ends up run by elves vs PF run by dwarves).

Write ups on the Nightlands or Shadow dimensions indicate that instances of them may exist in parallel with other dimensions, suggesting that for any given dimension there is a series of parallel dimensions that have certain properties. Leaving one to wonder what a Rifts Earth Nightlands looks like.

Write ups on the Astral plane however imply both plurality in dimensions and singularity for some planes that may serve as a bridge between... one shared inner plane, but access to the megaverse via the corresponding outer planes or sections of the outer plane (unclear on this point).

Pocket dimensions seem to be constructs in the space between and may take on any desired quality depending on the method of their construction. How? Don't know.

Or you might subscribe to the infinitely layered megaverse where each reality differs from their closest counterparts by a single infinitely small factor. However, in this case, all possible instances of pocket dimensions already exist and "creating" one is simply finding and accessing the desired pocket dimension.

To point out the obvious, in the absence of a detailed megaversal cosmology, all of this is meaningless outside our own respective head canon and house rules.

there were a couple things I read that made it make sense to me, your mileage may vary.

first is we look at the multiverse as a stack of plates, or a book. (this isn't how it REALLY works but it is an analogy.)
there are some core fundimental energy forms that are superimposed on the whole "stack" like magic where modern earth has a low enough "magic" so it effectively doesn't work, where the "rifts earth" has a higher background "magic" energy level
I would also argue, that if you go too far from the "base lines" that you can get into places where things are so fundamentally different /hostile that things just don't work.

to use an example, one dimension might have such high levels of various radiations that it is functionally instantly lethal to beings from our universe. and others where life never got started because the "mutation rate" is so low that well the first single celled organism hasn't evolved yet...