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Hi everyone! I'm new to the forums, but I've read a few posts here and there, and when I came up with a question that doesn't seem to have already been asked, I figured I'd up and ask it myself.

That question being, "Is it possible for a full conversion 'borg to get a new fleshy body?" I'm not actually in a game of RIFTS, but I'm thinking of writing a few stories about it for myself, trying to pick up a new hobby y'know? Anyway, one of the characters I've written up is a full conversion Combat 'Borg, and more to keep my options open than anything else I'm wondering how permanent her conversion actually is. From what I've read so far there doesn't seem to be much of a way to give her a new body. An actual human body, mind, not just a Light Conversion body like there is in the Bionics source book.

I'm guessing the kind of tech needed for something like that is well beyond any human power on RIFTS Earth. But, maybe the Splugorth have some bio-wizardry shenanigans kicking around for stuff like that, and I guess if there's some magic spell somewhere that gives a person regeneration for a bit that'd work too, but I haven't seen one. Since there's still a meat brain in that METAL BAWKS metal body, regeneration should fix it in the same way a supernatural creature's bio-regeneration rejects implants and closes the "wound" made by the attempt.

Anyways, I'm just wondering what the options are, if any, and where they'd be. Thanks!

First, welcome to the forums!

Now then, working from memory at the moment but a cyborg should be able to swap his body for one entirely made of bio-systems. Normally bio-systems are referred to as a single appendage or organ, but I don't see why one couldn't put together an entire body's worth. It wouldn't be completely human, or natural, but would be close enough.

One challenge would be the psychological impact. The character would have a lot of adjustments to overcome. Reduced senses, reflexes, attributes, having to wear deodorant...

This is a service provided by the Kittani in Atlantis. They can clone a completely new body exactly like the origional with full physical attribtues that it had before conversion. Atlantis page 35.

This is also possible with Golden Age Technology. the Republic of Japan, Golden age metropolis that were flung forward in time from the Golden Age without suffering the Apocalypse, also have the ability to clone new bodies for Full Conversion Cyborgs rather than bio systems. Rifts Japan Page 98.

So yes, it's possible, but it requires either the pinnicle of Golden Age medical technology or Space-Faring Advanced Aliens. And most species are not geared up to do this for Humans, even getting it done in Atlantis for a human is a custom order that requires weeks to months of lead time.

I would theorize that it would be possible for civilizations similarly advanced or more than either, like Phase World's CCW, to also do it, it does say their bionic technology is equal to the Kittanis.

It all depends on where you go. Japan (WB8 pg98) and Atlantis can clone you a new body, Japan (WB8pg98) has the more common retro-fitted with Bio-System Implants (but generally some Bionics remain) and such Retrofitting is also mentioned done by the CS (WB11 pg70-1) but they can't do clones. Bionic SB doesn't really touch on decommission aspect that I can see (at a quick glance), but does off the Cyber-Humanoid (a FCB that looks organic externally).

So the options are bio-systems, Japan, the Kittani in Atlantis, or maybe Phase World. Hmm... Not easy options, but they exist, and that's all I was really after. Thanks guys, y'all've been a big help.

The Sovietski book also talks about it some. They use a “civilian” cyborg body, but its not “living” per se.

Like other have said, though, going with a completely bio-system body should be 100% do-able. It would, of course, be a lot more fragile, and not 100% organic (since bio-systems have NEVER been explicitly detailed, AFAIK. Are they cloned tissue? Are they cybernetic? Are they a mixture? Its IMPLIED they are a mixture, but it also seems mages can use them without penalty, so are we sure of that?) as well as significantly less strong/agile. And if youre a FCB, unless you had your reproductive organs saved and stuffed in your bio-jar/containment unit, youre not having kids.

But i see zero issues with (using Rifts Earth widely-available technology) building what is essentially a complete bio-system body. Or, if possible, heading to a place like Phase World and getting a new body (ironically, probably more likely to learn about than Japan or Atlantis, and easier to get to).

Raoslin wrote:So the options are bio-systems, Japan, the Kittani in Atlantis, or maybe Phase World. Hmm... Not easy options, but they exist, and that's all I was really after. Thanks guys, y'all've been a big help.

They are actually a bit more extensive than just Japan/Atlantis/PW unless you are set on a clone body, pretty much anywhere you can get Bionics should in theory be able to handle Bio-System replacements like the Coalition and Free Quebec. Mages in NA favor bio-system cybernetics indicating there are places to get them (Kingsdale and Nothern Gun are likely to have Body-Chop Shops that can deliver Bio-systems).

A Gene Splicer can produce Clones (SB3 pg64), but you have to A. find one, B. convince one and C. hope there aren't any extras they include.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote: (since bio-systems have NEVER been explicitly detailed, AFAIK. Are they cloned tissue? Are they cybernetic? Are they a mixture? Its IMPLIED they are a mixture

Biosystems are explicitly detailed. They are a mixture.

Bionics Source Book pg31, and Rifts Main Book (old) pg232-3.

There was text about FCB getting new human bodies...think it was in Japan. The however is that to do that would be to clone a new body. But that would be killing the person that is the clone. So the procidure is not ethicly sound, so governments do not allow it.

Raoslin wrote:METAL BAWKS

LOL! Welcome

-STS

Raoslin wrote:So the options are bio-systems, Japan, the Kittani in Atlantis, or maybe Phase World. Hmm... Not easy options, but they exist, and that's all I was really after. Thanks guys, y'all've been a big help.

Phase World is actually pretty easy.

You can get there from at least 3 easily reached NA cities (Arzno, Queenstown Harbor, and Lazlo; likely New Lazlo as well, and definitely Tolkeen if you're pre-Siege). Those are just the ones that have Pyramids that can straight up send you there. Arzno and Queenstown in particular both have knowledge of Phase World (and it boggles the mind that Lazlo woldn't, somehow) as both were founded by Atlanteans who trace their travels and/or lineage through Alexandria (the Atlantean world in the UWW).

As i said, ironically, you're MORE likely to easily learn about the Three Galaxies/Phase World, and be able to get there more easily, than you are likely to know Japan even exists, or want to go to Atlantis (though there are also Kittani in the Three Galaxies and the Splugorth Kingdoms there would surely be able to do it as well if you had the cash and the moral ambiguity to deal with the Splugorth).

Edit: The CS does have the technology to clone people, and potentially entire bodies; they recovered it from Lone Star. They also have medical treatments that can extend human life to well over 150 years or more. All of these technologies are reserved for the Prosek family and their cohorts, however. So the CS could do it, but they will not, as the knowledge is a government secret and is reserved for the very very tip top of the elite of CS society. Unless maybe you make a deal with the devil (Bradford) in Lone Star... that could be an interesting plot/story.

I have to imagine Triax can do so as well, though on their part they probably do not do so out of ethical concerns (remember, they wont Bionically convert animals, which is one of their issues with the Sovietski, who can and do) rather than inability. Remember, they have Golden Age tech and never suffered a Dark Age. If anything, their bionics technology should make the Republic of Japan's look like an absolute joke. They do, however, seem to have a very strong moral compass and dont do things like clone bodies just to use as spare parts, so its reasonable to say "Triax/NGR wont do that" and not have to think too deeply about it.

wouldn't a bio-system body for a full conversion borg just be the brain in a bionic system, which is then plugged into a fleshy robot body? like stuffing a turkey with a beer can filled with vienna sausages?

Orin J. wrote:wouldn't a bio-system body for a full conversion borg just be the brain in a bionic system, which is then plugged into a fleshy robot body? like stuffing a turkey with a beer can filled with vienna sausages?

You've obviously skipped a meal...eat something.

But yeah, you're plugging your brain into a new body of a more organic nature(grown, printed out of cultured cells with a 3d printer, built up around plastic or calcium deposit bone framing, exercised via electronic stimulation while being finished in a culturing tank, etc...).

Just recalled CWC page 70-71, which has some notes for de-commissioning cyborgs. In particular, the 'retro-conversion.'

Raoslin wrote:Hi everyone! I'm new to the forums, but I've read a few posts here and there, and when I came up with a question that doesn't seem to have already been asked, I figured I'd up and ask it myself.

That question being, "Is it possible for a full conversion 'borg to get a new fleshy body?" I'm not actually in a game of RIFTS, but I'm thinking of writing a few stories about it for myself, trying to pick up a new hobby y'know? Anyway, one of the characters I've written up is a full conversion Combat 'Borg, and more to keep my options open than anything else I'm wondering how permanent her conversion actually is. From what I've read so far there doesn't seem to be much of a way to give her a new body. An actual human body, mind, not just a Light Conversion body like there is in the Bionics source book.

I'm guessing the kind of tech needed for something like that is well beyond any human power on RIFTS Earth. But, maybe the Splugorth have some bio-wizardry shenanigans kicking around for stuff like that, and I guess if there's some magic spell somewhere that gives a person regeneration for a bit that'd work too, but I haven't seen one. Since there's still a meat brain in that METAL BAWKS metal body, regeneration should fix it in the same way a supernatural creature's bio-regeneration rejects implants and closes the "wound" made by the attempt.

Anyways, I'm just wondering what the options are, if any, and where they'd be. Thanks!

There are options for a full biosystems conversion which is still bionic but looks and feels pretty natural and organic. There is also the cyberhumanoid option which basically is a very light full conversion borg body with basically all the cosmetic options to basically look like a normal person.

The other option is if you can make friends with lemurians there is a biomancer spell that basically if there is any you left of you it can heal that to be basically your full normal natural body. Any juicer rigs/crazy mods/cyborg body all gets expelled and you are totally rejuvenated.

Edit found the name of the spell.
Reconstruction (675) Return any creature modified by implants, symbiotes, cybernetics or parasites to their "stock" body, can even cure Juicerdom.

taalismn wrote:

Orin J. wrote:wouldn't a bio-system body for a full conversion borg just be the brain in a bionic system, which is then plugged into a fleshy robot body? like stuffing a turkey with a beer can filled with vienna sausages?

You've obviously skipped a meal...eat something.

But yeah, you're plugging your brain into a new body of a more organic nature(grown, printed out of cultured cells with a 3d printer, built up around plastic or calcium deposit bone framing, exercised via electronic stimulation while being finished in a culturing tank, etc...).

basically you are putting your brain into a Bladerunner Replicant. a body assembled from parts, made from engineered and grown tissues with a small amount of non-organic circuitry and structural supports to tie it all together.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Edit: The CS does have the technology to clone people, and potentially entire bodies; they recovered it from Lone Star. They also have medical treatments that can extend human life to well over 150 years or more. All of these technologies are reserved for the Prosek family and their cohorts, however. So the CS could do it, but they will not, as the knowledge is a government secret and is reserved for the very very tip top of the elite of CS society. Unless maybe you make a deal with the devil (Bradford) in Lone Star... that could be an interesting plot/story.

it would require more than just the capacity to clone a body though. first you'd also need to be able to adjust the cloning process to grow only the body and not the higher nervous systems that would give the clone sentience. (which would be all sorts of ethical issues.) you'd also need the medical expertise to be able to reattach the brain to the cloned body's nervous system, and do it consistently and successfully. (which is probably similar to hooking up biosystems, but given biosystems do still include non-organic parts, would still be a separate experience.)
while i have no doubt they could develop those abilities, it would require a fair bit of experimentation and practice on their part to develop them from scratch.

I have to imagine Triax can do so as well, though on their part they probably do not do so out of ethical concerns (remember, they wont Bionically convert animals, which is one of their issues with the Sovietski, who can and do) rather than inability. Remember, they have Golden Age tech and never suffered a Dark Age. If anything, their bionics technology should make the Republic of Japan's look like an absolute joke. They do, however, seem to have a very strong moral compass and dont do things like clone bodies just to use as spare parts, so its reasonable to say "Triax/NGR wont do that" and not have to think too deeply about it.

Triax doesn't seem to have gone in for cloning at all in fact. given their extensive use of cyborg troops, i suspect they have a pretty effective solution to borg soldier retirement. at a guess, probably a mix of the biosystem body approach and and the light 'hidden' cyborg body, probably depending on things like rank, time in service, service history, etc.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Edit: The CS does have the technology to clone people, and potentially entire bodies; they recovered it from Lone Star. They also have medical treatments that can extend human life to well over 150 years or more. All of these technologies are reserved for the Prosek family and their cohorts, however. So the CS could do it, but they will not, as the knowledge is a government secret and is reserved for the very very tip top of the elite of CS society. Unless maybe you make a deal with the devil (Bradford) in Lone Star... that could be an interesting plot/story.

it would require more than just the capacity to clone a body though. first you'd also need to be able to adjust the cloning process to grow only the body and not the higher nervous systems that would give the clone sentience. (which would be all sorts of ethical issues.)

Hardly. The CS HAS no ethical issues with such things. And you can just lobotomize the clone/flush its brain. (this is dealt with in Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan Saga extensively. Clones are grown, and when it comes time for them to be a donor, theyre just lobotomized. MOST civilizations dont countenance this (including the otherwise morally barely-human/post-human Cetagandans), but there are places like the planet Jackson's Hole that do and the service can be purchased. Some people there are 300+ years old and on their third or fourth clone body.) Given that Bionics/Cybernetic tech can already keep a brain-in-a-jar alive, i think we're OK here.

you'd also need the medical expertise to be able to reattach the brain to the cloned body's nervous system,

Which they already have since you have the surgical ability to attach nerves to synthetic nerves with ZERO loss of agility/control (in fact, better-than-human) to the bionic/cybernetic components.

and do it consistently and successfully. (which is probably similar to hooking up biosystems, but given biosystems do still include non-organic parts, would still be a separate experience.)

Why? Reconnecting real nerves is something we can do right now, today. Given the microsurgery required to even hook up Bionics/Cybernetics to the human nervous system... this isn't going to remotely be an issue. And we already know that those bio-systems are genetically matched to the recipient to prevent rejection. So it doesn't exactly seem like a stretch to simply clone genetically compatible bodies. Its just probably not economically feasible/the cost is so high no one will pay it.

while i have no doubt they could develop those abilities, it would require a fair bit of experimentation and practice on their part to develop them from scratch.

Which they dont have to do since they acquired it in the Lone Star Facility. They gained a comprehensive knowledge base of cloning (arguably the best on the entire planet, sans extraterrestrial sources like Atlantis), genetic engineering (again, probably the best on the planet sans Atlantis and similar), bionics, cybernetics, and general medical knowledge, including rejuvination techniques that can extend the normal human lifespan to 200+ years.

That stuff is just not available to the plebs, and is reserved for the upper-upper-echelons of CS society (and the rejuv treatments exclusively for the Proseks themselves and their hand-picked allies/friends/inner circle).

The Naruni can probably do it. They have there new showroom in MercTown. Of course whether they would be will to do so, and how much they would charge is the question. Hard to say who would be more trustworthy Naruni or crazy old doc Bradford in Lone Star.

Emerald MoonSilver wrote:The Naruni can probably do it. They have there new showroom in MercTown. Of course whether they would be will to do so, and how much they would charge is the question. Hard to say who would be more trustworthy Naruni or crazy old doc Bradford in Lone Star.

Naruni.

Theyre in business to be in business.

IF they offered the service, and you had the cash, they'd hold up their end.

Bad for business otherwise.

Edit:

I can see them not offering the service on Rifts Earth (as they simply dont have the facilities/its not a product they do on Rifts Earth), but i can also see them charging you out the wazoo and sending you off-world to the Three Galaxies or other advanced civilization/dimension to get it done.

The gene splicers could do it in a heartbeat. But *would* they?

Vincent Takeda wrote:The gene splicers could do it in a heartbeat. But *would* they?

If they actually say yes, you might want to find someone else, because they will give you a clone body with your DNA...along with who knows how many other creatures DNA