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It has come up in a themed Heroes game that the Heroes Unlimited roll your education isn't appropriate and that we might have to build custom OCC style skill groups for the players. It is a period setting with limited educational opportunities. So the question came up how do you give the PCs a big enough skill base but still keep within the limited chances of an education.

Are there any suggestions on how we should work this out.

I like this game's skill system much better than the OCC system. I think if your group is having issues with it, perhaps you should ignore the random roll and let the player pick which education level fits best with the player's idea of the character.

SpiritInterface wrote:It has come up in a themed Heroes game that the Heroes Unlimited roll your education isn't appropriate and that we might have to build custom OCC style skill groups for the players. It is a period setting with limited educational opportunities. So the question came up how do you give the PCs a big enough skill base but still keep within the limited chances of an education.

Are there any suggestions on how we should work this out.

If this is a period game then the first thing you need to do is come up with is the skill list. What skills are available in this place and time. Then just take an existing skill program that is close to what you want and modify them with the new skills.

Now I prefer the system in BTS2 to both the OCC and HU skill programs. I love the idea of your skills being separate from your powers, unless your skills are your powers, and your skills being centered around an actual job.

The Beast wrote:I like this game's skill system much better than the OCC system. I think if your group is having issues with it, perhaps you should ignore the random roll and let the player pick which education level fits best with the player's idea of the character.

This is what I have always done, the random roll can really disrupt the players vision for the character. If you make it even for all the players then it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

SpiritInterface wrote:It has come up in a themed Heroes game that the Heroes Unlimited roll your education isn't appropriate and that we might have to build custom OCC style skill groups for the players. It is a period setting with limited educational opportunities. So the question came up how do you give the PCs a big enough skill base but still keep within the limited chances of an education.

Are there any suggestions on how we should work this out.

If the setting you will be playing in limits the skills avalibe then write up a new education table to reflect the setting you will be playing in. Then also write up new skill programs to include imported skills from other games that fit the time period/setting you will be playing in.

In other words...do what GMs have done since inception of RPGs...modiy the game to fit where the game is going to be played.

i my self started using the ordinary survivor from dead reign .

there are huge holes in the HU education system. I have known people that have little to no formal education and are good at everything they try just about and are well-read and know more about many subjects than people who hold degrees in those fields and I have known PHD holders who can't apply their education to a career in the field they studied. the table also lacks elective skills entirely, that being said there are many OCCs in rifts that are just bad at their jobs as written. Look at the smuggler who has a 35% chance to smuggle something but oh boy do they know where to get stuff. It makes absolutely no sense because a smuggler isn't the guy that knows where to get everything, he's the one you go to if you want to get things where they are not supposed to be. They should start MINIMUM with 55% in concealment and that's still pretty low for someone who lives and dies by their ability to sneak stuff into places.
Both systems are full of massive holes, the OCC style relies on the writers knowing what they are doing when they build the class and the education system leaves most characters with too few skill selections to be useful for much of anything besides going out and fighting crime. I would be surprised if someone IRL had the skill selection of an on-the-job training program like you have in the HU book to do anything but flip burgers. Meanwhile, on-the-job training IRL is much more specialized. often the skill packages meant for blue-collar types leave them a skill or 2 short of being able to do the job they would be doing and unable to take the right skills in secondaries because it isn't allowed.
Even many specific skills in unrealistic, crime scene investigation requiring about every science skill in the game is silly, this isn't the same thing as forensics. CSI's process the scene, forensic techs work in the lab and analyze the evidence. You also have specializations within those techs whereas one may specialize in chemistry and biochemistry and one may specialize in physics based disciplines.
Guess wehat also, a combat medic is not a medical doctor, why does every medic get medical doctor. If i play a medic MOS I am clear with the GM I am playing a doctor and get permission to take more medical skills than the MOS allows (which is surprisingly limited) because I would not be a doctor without pathology.

Game rules do not have to reflect reality. They are a means of providing structure to a game. Saying the game rules do not reflect reality is irrelevant.

My only real issue with the system is when the AUGG skill programs (starting on page 190) come into play and try to bridge the gap between skill programs and OCC skill builds. It states that the programs cost two programs each but I cannot understand why. Then it goes on to say that the programs can be turned into OCCs by giving up all of your skill programs and gaining the listed skills at the end of the sections in addition the skills in that program. Ok great but do you get to keep the skills given to you by your class or not? At what rate do you gain new skills ect.

The Professional Combat Athlete program even gives you the opportunity to choose the program at some level and gain the abilities of another class altogether from the way that it is printed. So do I get the second class for the cost of two programs or do I loose all of my skills from my class and then gain another class?

Bladedancer13 wrote:My only real issue with the system is when the AUGG skill programs (starting on page 190) come into play and try to bridge the gap between skill programs and OCC skill builds. It states that the programs cost two programs each but I cannot understand why. Then it goes on to say that the programs can be turned into OCCs by giving up all of your skill programs and gaining the listed skills at the end of the sections in addition the skills in that program. Ok great but do you get to keep the skills given to you by your class or not? At what rate do you gain new skills ect.

The Professional Combat Athlete program even gives you the opportunity to choose the program at some level and gain the abilities of another class altogether from the way that it is printed. So do I get the second class for the cost of two programs or do I loose all of my skills from my class and then gain another class?

What do you mean by class? If you are a Hardware character or Alien with a class skill program? I am not understanding the question.

Bladedancer13 wrote: It states that the programs cost two programs each but I cannot understand why.

Look how many skills and bonuses each of the AU:GG Skill Programs have. And then compare them to the Skill programs in the core book. The AU:GG Skill programs are, quality & quantity wise, about twice as good as what the core book skill programs deliver.

Bladedancer13 wrote: Then it goes on to say that the programs can be turned into OCCs by giving up all of your skill programs and gaining the listed skills at the end of the sections in addition the skills in that program.

That text is for people who want to take those skill programs into Rifts 3G (or Rifts E). (Or are incapable of thinking in other Character Template terms. Read Learn Understand, then be deliberate in your writing.) Because of this if you are playing HU:MWG (or HU:E), you should just ignore this text and build the char according the HU char.building text.

Bladedancer13 wrote: The Professional Combat Athlete program even gives you the opportunity to choose the program at some level and gain the abilities of another class altogether from the way that it is printed. So do I get the second class for the cost of two programs or do I loose all of my skills from my class and then gain another class?

Professional Occupation: What I'm reading is that the 'other skills' are instead of using the education roll in the normal char. building text. Much like how the Special Training: Hunter has it's own skills set & tell you to not use the skills roll in the regular char. creation text.

Note the reason SG is ...mildly complaining/seminally confused...about your words, is your are "Talking Rifts" and not "Talking Heroes Unlimited". The Template Concepts are incompatible different, as such the use of the term 'class' is incompatible with Talking about HU stuff.

Yeah, I'm used to the term class being used in other games, such as AD&D, but not Heroes Unlimited. I don't play Rifts so I wouldn't know about the terms used there.

SpiritInterface wrote:It has come up in a themed Heroes game that the Heroes Unlimited roll your education isn't appropriate and that we might have to build custom OCC style skill groups for the players. It is a period setting with limited educational opportunities. So the question came up how do you give the PCs a big enough skill base but still keep within the limited chances of an education.

Are there any suggestions on how we should work this out.

I think it was Rifter 5 which had an article called "Heroes Throughout the Ages" that might offer some salient advice.

Rifter 79 has an article on Gaming Through History. It is for BTS but I believe it works for most other games and I think it has stuff on skills.