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Knight_General wrote:alright so i am making a character and i want them to be a sniper. while i have been given some advice on how to get some more bonuses to strike i wanted to know if there are any bonuses other than the sniper skill that could get me a decent strike bonus.

i am also looking for the best starting weapons for a sniper. right now i get one energy pistol, one energy rifle, and three of choice. the only modern WP i don't have is submachine guns, military flamethrowers, and harpoon & spear gun.

eliakon wrote:Having just concluded a four and a half year game in which my character was a sniper I would like to offer a few bits of advise if I may.

The first bit is that Lynette didn't spend a lot of time actually sniping. I knew that going in so I had other things that my character could do as well. But when we did get in combat situations the group liked having the ability to call in strikes on targets and watch Lynette OHK targets for them... when we were not doing things where Lynette was useful for sniping she was making cute boxed lunches for the team, trying to understand what 'morality' was, talking philosophy with the Necromancer, discussing Anime with the other two Otoku, balancing the units books and generally doing "other stuff"

The second bit is that her best weapon was an SDC rifle, a Viggo custom more or less actual. Yes an SDC rifle. She was death on two legs with that.
You see with a SDC rifle she could swap out bullets to match whatever the target was. Silver Bullets, Explosive Bullets, Ram-Jets, Bone Bullets, Charmed Bullets, D-U rounds... what ever she needed to make a particular shot count she could do it.
Also while there is "Impervious to energy" there isn't "Impervious to bullets"
I used stuff like weapon balancing, custom sights, custom grips and the rest on my rifle for more bonuses as well.

She did keep a pretty large collection of other weapons as well, so as to have the right tool for the job. If we were hunting CS troops she would break out the Plasma or P-Beams for example.

The third bit is that I ask my GM if I could use some of the gun skills in the other game books.
-Splicers has the Vital Strikes skill which lets you boost your aimed/called shots
-BTS 2 allows for buying the Sharpshooter trick shots separately
-Dinosaur Swamp has the Stalking Skill which adds to strike
-And of course Heroes of Humanity has that tasty Sniper package


Lastly I found that my sniper was fairly social (for a soulless killer doll). She needed the group to provide support, to help her designate targets, keep foes off her back and do all the other stuff (like the mage in the group who was happy to cast buff spells on her to boost her sniping and damage to even more ungodly levels).


The end result was that I had an absurdly overly competent sniper who, by the end of the game was routinely making kill shots from a mile+ away...
...but that was not taking any limelight from anyone else and was no more solo (or seen as any more detrimental) than the mecha pilots or PA pilots.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Spoiler:

Having just concluded a four and a half year game in which my character was a sniper I would like to offer a few bits of advise if I may.

The first bit is that Lynette didn't spend a lot of time actually sniping. I knew that going in so I had other things that my character could do as well. But when we did get in combat situations the group liked having the ability to call in strikes on targets and watch Lynette OHK targets for them... when we were not doing things where Lynette was useful for sniping she was making cute boxed lunches for the team, trying to understand what 'morality' was, talking philosophy with the Necromancer, discussing Anime with the other two Otoku, balancing the units books and generally doing "other stuff"

The second bit is that her best weapon was an SDC rifle, a Viggo custom more or less actual. Yes an SDC rifle. She was death on two legs with that.
You see with a SDC rifle she could swap out bullets to match whatever the target was. Silver Bullets, Explosive Bullets, Ram-Jets, Bone Bullets, Charmed Bullets, D-U rounds... what ever she needed to make a particular shot count she could do it.
Also while there is "Impervious to energy" there isn't "Impervious to bullets"
I used stuff like weapon balancing, custom sights, custom grips and the rest on my rifle for more bonuses as well.

She did keep a pretty large collection of other weapons as well, so as to have the right tool for the job. If we were hunting CS troops she would break out the Plasma or P-Beams for example.

The third bit is that I ask my GM if I could use some of the gun skills in the other game books.
-Splicers has the Vital Strikes skill which lets you boost your aimed/called shots
-BTS 2 allows for buying the Sharpshooter trick shots separately
-Dinosaur Swamp has the Stalking Skill which adds to strike
-And of course Heroes of Humanity has that tasty Sniper package


Lastly I found that my sniper was fairly social (for a soulless killer doll). She needed the group to provide support, to help her designate targets, keep foes off her back and do all the other stuff (like the mage in the group who was happy to cast buff spells on her to boost her sniping and damage to even more ungodly levels).


The end result was that I had an absurdly overly competent sniper who, by the end of the game was routinely making kill shots from a mile+ away...
...but that was not taking any limelight from anyone else and was no more solo (or seen as any more detrimental) than the mecha pilots or PA pilots.

This

The other guys are talking about a lone gunman or the old WW snipers like Simo Häyhä or Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko but most modern snipers have a spotter or are a part of strike team or overwatch like Chris Kyle all very team oriented.

@Eli that the game you were talking about on the other site?

Incriptus wrote:When I last found myself making a "Sniper" I stopped myself, I took a step back and decided I was going to be a "Sharpshooter". Sure i'm just arguing semantics and he used the exact same stats ... it just helped broaden my mission paramiters Sniping someone from far away just became one of my stunts.

HWalsh wrote:

Knight_General wrote:alright so i am making a character and i want them to be a sniper. while i have been given some advice on how to get some more bonuses to strike i wanted to know if there are any bonuses other than the sniper skill that could get me a decent strike bonus.

i am also looking for the best starting weapons for a sniper. right now i get one energy pistol, one energy rifle, and three of choice. the only modern WP i don't have is submachine guns, military flamethrowers, and harpoon & spear gun.

This is more general advice and commentary, but:

Have you ever played Rifts before, or any RPG with snipers in it?

Snipers in RPGs aren't really a thing. You can do it, don't get me wrong, but by their very nature they have 3 side effects/downsides:

Side Effect:
Snipers are generally speaking "Lone Wolf" operators. Even more so as you're doing a robot wolf. It means splitting the party and that is always a GM headache.

Side Effect:
Snipers are either God-Tier overpowered or stupidly inefficient, this seems to be s zero sum game too. A sniper attacks from stupid distances, ambushes targets, and that's it. They either win the fight for the team solo, making other players grumpy, or they are left in a support role where they are immune to consequences.

Why are they sometimes stupidly inefficient? Because of the rules.

It is virtually impossible to get a one-shot-one-kill sniper kill in Rifts unless the GM hands it to you. You have to catch a target, exposed completely, and hit them to kill them. It doesn't matter what you shoot them with, if it is a freaking 3d6×10+20 weapon and they have even 1 point of MD protection it takes 2 shots. Why? Under the rules over damage doesn't transfer.

Downside:
A lot of games are going to take place in close quarters or as a reaction situation. Both are bad for snipers.

Conclusion:
I'd look at making a Soldier who can snipe, rather than a sniper, it's much more conducive to gameplay.

eliakon wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Spoiler:

Having just concluded a four and a half year game in which my character was a sniper I would like to offer a few bits of advise if I may.

The first bit is that Lynette didn't spend a lot of time actually sniping. I knew that going in so I had other things that my character could do as well. But when we did get in combat situations the group liked having the ability to call in strikes on targets and watch Lynette OHK targets for them... when we were not doing things where Lynette was useful for sniping she was making cute boxed lunches for the team, trying to understand what 'morality' was, talking philosophy with the Necromancer, discussing Anime with the other two Otoku, balancing the units books and generally doing "other stuff"

The second bit is that her best weapon was an SDC rifle, a Viggo custom more or less actual. Yes an SDC rifle. She was death on two legs with that.
You see with a SDC rifle she could swap out bullets to match whatever the target was. Silver Bullets, Explosive Bullets, Ram-Jets, Bone Bullets, Charmed Bullets, D-U rounds... what ever she needed to make a particular shot count she could do it.
Also while there is "Impervious to energy" there isn't "Impervious to bullets"
I used stuff like weapon balancing, custom sights, custom grips and the rest on my rifle for more bonuses as well.

She did keep a pretty large collection of other weapons as well, so as to have the right tool for the job. If we were hunting CS troops she would break out the Plasma or P-Beams for example.

The third bit is that I ask my GM if I could use some of the gun skills in the other game books.
-Splicers has the Vital Strikes skill which lets you boost your aimed/called shots
-BTS 2 allows for buying the Sharpshooter trick shots separately
-Dinosaur Swamp has the Stalking Skill which adds to strike
-And of course Heroes of Humanity has that tasty Sniper package


Lastly I found that my sniper was fairly social (for a soulless killer doll). She needed the group to provide support, to help her designate targets, keep foes off her back and do all the other stuff (like the mage in the group who was happy to cast buff spells on her to boost her sniping and damage to even more ungodly levels).


The end result was that I had an absurdly overly competent sniper who, by the end of the game was routinely making kill shots from a mile+ away...
...but that was not taking any limelight from anyone else and was no more solo (or seen as any more detrimental) than the mecha pilots or PA pilots.

This

The other guys are talking about a lone gunman or the old WW snipers like Simo Häyhä or Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko but most modern snipers have a spotter or are a part of strike team or overwatch like Chris Kyle all very team oriented.

@Eli that the game you were talking about on the other site?

Kermit's Saturday Night Rifts Game.
I played Lynette, the Cybernetic Killer Doll/Sniper/General Murder Hobo (because every group needs one of those right?)

Father Goose wrote:HWalsh and Eliakon present opposing views on sniper characters, but both agree on one important element: you need your character to be capable of doing more than just sniping. If all you are is a sniper, you'll be bored and a resource drain on the group anytime there is plot not related to long range murder.
So whatever you decide to do, be sure you're not creating a one trick pony.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Spoiler:

Having just concluded a four and a half year game in which my character was a sniper I would like to offer a few bits of advise if I may.

The first bit is that Lynette didn't spend a lot of time actually sniping. I knew that going in so I had other things that my character could do as well. But when we did get in combat situations the group liked having the ability to call in strikes on targets and watch Lynette OHK targets for them... when we were not doing things where Lynette was useful for sniping she was making cute boxed lunches for the team, trying to understand what 'morality' was, talking philosophy with the Necromancer, discussing Anime with the other two Otoku, balancing the units books and generally doing "other stuff"

The second bit is that her best weapon was an SDC rifle, a Viggo custom more or less actual. Yes an SDC rifle. She was death on two legs with that.
You see with a SDC rifle she could swap out bullets to match whatever the target was. Silver Bullets, Explosive Bullets, Ram-Jets, Bone Bullets, Charmed Bullets, D-U rounds... what ever she needed to make a particular shot count she could do it.
Also while there is "Impervious to energy" there isn't "Impervious to bullets"
I used stuff like weapon balancing, custom sights, custom grips and the rest on my rifle for more bonuses as well.

She did keep a pretty large collection of other weapons as well, so as to have the right tool for the job. If we were hunting CS troops she would break out the Plasma or P-Beams for example.

The third bit is that I ask my GM if I could use some of the gun skills in the other game books.
-Splicers has the Vital Strikes skill which lets you boost your aimed/called shots
-BTS 2 allows for buying the Sharpshooter trick shots separately
-Dinosaur Swamp has the Stalking Skill which adds to strike
-And of course Heroes of Humanity has that tasty Sniper package


Lastly I found that my sniper was fairly social (for a soulless killer doll). She needed the group to provide support, to help her designate targets, keep foes off her back and do all the other stuff (like the mage in the group who was happy to cast buff spells on her to boost her sniping and damage to even more ungodly levels).


The end result was that I had an absurdly overly competent sniper who, by the end of the game was routinely making kill shots from a mile+ away...
...but that was not taking any limelight from anyone else and was no more solo (or seen as any more detrimental) than the mecha pilots or PA pilots.

This

The other guys are talking about a lone gunman or the old WW snipers like Simo Häyhä or Lyudmila Mikhailovna Pavlichenko but most modern snipers have a spotter or are a part of strike team or overwatch like Chris Kyle all very team oriented.

@Eli that the game you were talking about on the other site?

Kermit's Saturday Night Rifts Game.
I played Lynette, the Cybernetic Killer Doll/Sniper/General Murder Hobo (because every group needs one of those right?)

I have one extremely important question...




Did she wear pigtails?

kaid wrote:

HWalsh wrote:

Knight_General wrote:alright so i am making a character and i want them to be a sniper. while i have been given some advice on how to get some more bonuses to strike i wanted to know if there are any bonuses other than the sniper skill that could get me a decent strike bonus.

i am also looking for the best starting weapons for a sniper. right now i get one energy pistol, one energy rifle, and three of choice. the only modern WP i don't have is submachine guns, military flamethrowers, and harpoon & spear gun.

This is more general advice and commentary, but:

Have you ever played Rifts before, or any RPG with snipers in it?

Snipers in RPGs aren't really a thing. You can do it, don't get me wrong, but by their very nature they have 3 side effects/downsides:

Side Effect:
Snipers are generally speaking "Lone Wolf" operators. Even more so as you're doing a robot wolf. It means splitting the party and that is always a GM headache.

Side Effect:
Snipers are either God-Tier overpowered or stupidly inefficient, this seems to be s zero sum game too. A sniper attacks from stupid distances, ambushes targets, and that's it. They either win the fight for the team solo, making other players grumpy, or they are left in a support role where they are immune to consequences.

Why are they sometimes stupidly inefficient? Because of the rules.

It is virtually impossible to get a one-shot-one-kill sniper kill in Rifts unless the GM hands it to you. You have to catch a target, exposed completely, and hit them to kill them. It doesn't matter what you shoot them with, if it is a freaking 3d6×10+20 weapon and they have even 1 point of MD protection it takes 2 shots. Why? Under the rules over damage doesn't transfer.

Downside:
A lot of games are going to take place in close quarters or as a reaction situation. Both are bad for snipers.

Conclusion:
I'd look at making a Soldier who can snipe, rather than a sniper, it's much more conducive to gameplay.

Rifts is an odd ball for sniping. Armor is really strong so unless you are spending a lot of time stalking you don't get many instant kills on unarmored bits. That said sniping can still be really useful but not really in the traditional concept of it. A sniper in rifts is a weak point striker generally they are most useful to help disable big threats like robots/power armor by shooting out ammo feeds/power cables/sensors or crippling arms/legs. Also they are good vs certain supernatural things where you need to hit some specific vulnerability to incapacitate/kill the target.

If you are looking for sniper as a lone wolf assassin that is really hard to work in a normal group environment and also due to how damn strong body armor is in rifts difficult to impossible to actually get a one shot kill.

Hotrod wrote:One thing that bugs me about RPG snipers is that the focus is entirely upon marksmanship. While that is important, that's maybe 25% of what makes a good sniper.

Stealth is critical for a sniper. Without staying hidden for long periods of time, what you have is effectively a designated marksman, not a sniper. Skills like Prowl and Camouflage are critical for snipers, and their equipment should emphasize this at least as much as it emphasizes marksmanship. It's not just about fancy footwork and ghillie suits, either. Your smell matters. The noise you and your equipment make can get you killed. You have to be able to work with and consider your environment. The best sniper in WW2 used to eat snow while he waited to take a shot in order to prevent his breath from steaming.

Planning a shot is also critical for a sniper. Selecting a position, working out how to get there and get away, and having a plan to misdirect enemies is all crucial for a sniper who wants to stay alive. Snipers are extremely vulnerable due to their narrow range of vision as they wait to take their shot, and it's important to have a plan for detecting and reacting to unexpected company.

That phrase, "wait to take their shot," is basically 99.999% of the job. Being a sniper is mind-numbingly boring. Snipers often wait hours, even days, just to take a single shot. This is also why RPG snipers usually aren't really snipers. The game mechanics aren't built well for that, and gaming groups aren't going to be patient enough to implement realistic sniping scenarios.

Father Goose wrote:

Hotrod wrote:One thing that bugs me about RPG snipers is that the focus is entirely upon marksmanship. While that is important, that's maybe 25% of what makes a good sniper.

Stealth is critical for a sniper. Without staying hidden for long periods of time, what you have is effectively a designated marksman, not a sniper. Skills like Prowl and Camouflage are critical for snipers, and their equipment should emphasize this at least as much as it emphasizes marksmanship. It's not just about fancy footwork and ghillie suits, either. Your smell matters. The noise you and your equipment make can get you killed. You have to be able to work with and consider your environment. The best sniper in WW2 used to eat snow while he waited to take a shot in order to prevent his breath from steaming.

Planning a shot is also critical for a sniper. Selecting a position, working out how to get there and get away, and having a plan to misdirect enemies is all crucial for a sniper who wants to stay alive. Snipers are extremely vulnerable due to their narrow range of vision as they wait to take their shot, and it's important to have a plan for detecting and reacting to unexpected company.

That phrase, "wait to take their shot," is basically 99.999% of the job. Being a sniper is mind-numbingly boring. Snipers often wait hours, even days, just to take a single shot. This is also why RPG snipers usually aren't really snipers. The game mechanics aren't built well for that, and gaming groups aren't going to be patient enough to implement realistic sniping scenarios.

I think the next OCC I write will be a Sniper. There seems to be real interest in the role, and you make some excellent points about overlooked elements. I think there is enough to warrant a new OCC.

jaymz wrote:https://worldofjaymz.fandom.com/wiki/Sniper

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:I agree with Hotrod on the "snipers in RPGs are really just Designated Marksmen" point.

Because real sniping, as pointed out, sometimes involves days off work for one shot. IIRC, Carlos Hathcock (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock) once crawled for over 2 days though a field with patrols sometimes almost standing on him, to take a single shot at a VA general

And then two more days crawling back out while the place swarmed with VA looking for him.

That's not really "group RPG storytelling friendly"

dragonfett wrote:You start taking penalties if your target is moving or if you are moving, and if you are doing a called aimed shot to a small item (like the head or smaller), you take a penalty as well. This is why stealth is so important for a sniper.

dragonfett wrote:I don't recall which Rifter it was in, but there is an article concerning CS Snipers (TAG: Target Acquisition Group) which contained special sniper skills as well. Being a Rifter Article means it's entirely optional (really, all of the rules are) with a 99% it's not official (I say that as the Rifters do have the occasional article with official content).

The GMG details bonuses you can get by having your weapon customized, add a laser scope for +3 on a Wilk's 447 Pulse Rifle at either level 1 or 2, and you're looking at a +8 to strike on an aimed shot (it takes two actions to set up), and your target number is 8.

You start taking penalties if your target is moving or if you are moving, and if you are doing a called aimed shot to a small item (like the head or smaller), you take a penalty as well. This is why stealth is so important for a sniper.

Hotrod wrote:

dragonfett wrote:You start taking penalties if your target is moving or if you are moving, and if you are doing a called aimed shot to a small item (like the head or smaller), you take a penalty as well. This is why stealth is so important for a sniper.

That's one small piece of why stealth is so important for a sniper. Snipers don't put huge amounts of effort into staying concealed to make their shooting easier. They do so first to stay alive and second to maximize disruption to the enemy. If the enemy doesn't know where you are, their return fire will amount to spraying and praying (read: totally ineffective), and they will either be trying to hunker down and protect themselves against an unknown threat from an unknown location, which will effectively paralyze them as an organization, or they will be trying to hunt down the sniper across a large area, which will be ineffective and give the sniper maximum opportunity to escape.

To be fair, stealth as an aid for lining up easy shots is important to snipers in one particular context. Law enforcement/hostage situation response snipers in particular aren't worried about an enemy's response, because the presumption is that the police control the area; instead, they want to be able to take a target out quickly if ordered to do so (or if the situation calls for it). Even then, though, stealth is secondary to having an unobstructed view of what's going on.

dragonfett wrote:

Hotrod wrote:

dragonfett wrote:You start taking penalties if your target is moving or if you are moving, and if you are doing a called aimed shot to a small item (like the head or smaller), you take a penalty as well. This is why stealth is so important for a sniper.

That's one small piece of why stealth is so important for a sniper. Snipers don't put huge amounts of effort into staying concealed to make their shooting easier. They do so first to stay alive and second to maximize disruption to the enemy. If the enemy doesn't know where you are, their return fire will amount to spraying and praying (read: totally ineffective), and they will either be trying to hunker down and protect themselves against an unknown threat from an unknown location, which will effectively paralyze them as an organization, or they will be trying to hunt down the sniper across a large area, which will be ineffective and give the sniper maximum opportunity to escape.

To be fair, stealth as an aid for lining up easy shots is important to snipers in one particular context. Law enforcement/hostage situation response snipers in particular aren't worried about an enemy's response, because the presumption is that the police control the area; instead, they want to be able to take a target out quickly if ordered to do so (or if the situation calls for it). Even then, though, stealth is secondary to having an unobstructed view of what's going on.

I wasn't thinking clearly when I wrote that and didn't intend for it to seem that one aspect above all others was why stealth is so important a skill to snipers when infiltration/exfiltration are far more important, one could say. The ability to sneak into an area where the target (presumably a high value target) will be known to be, hopefully at their least prepared, is critical as a sniper as we think of them in a military.

Something I wanted to touch on earlier, however, is that it seems to me that Palladium pretty much treats snipers more like S.W.A.T. team snipers where all they need is the ability to shoot very well.

And thank you Dustin!

Knight_General wrote:alright so i am making a character and i want them to be a sniper. while i have been given some advice on how to get some more bonuses to strike i wanted to know if there are any bonuses other than the sniper skill that could get me a decent strike bonus.

i am also looking for the best starting weapons for a sniper. right now i get one energy pistol, one energy rifle, and three of choice. the only modern WP i don't have is submachine guns, military flamethrowers, and harpoon & spear gun.

Blackwater Sniper wrote:I played a character who had the role of overwatch/support. As a Temporal Warrior, he kept his bulky weapons in smaller, dimensional hard-cases and could carry many different weapons and types of ammo for different situations without standing out in a crowd. Using his magic, he could suppress the report and nearly completely hide him from technological means.

Rarely was he out of sight of the rest of the team and he never made shots more than a couple blocks away. Sometimes from rooftops but most often by spontaneously jumping on a parked vehicle or other ground-level stable environment.