Forums of the Megaverse®

Main book and Bionics are both clear that a replacement limb (excepting bio-systems; maybe) reduces PPE/ISP by half. So does two-three implant. I note this is a change from the original main book, where a partial conversion borg could still maintain psionics.

Does cyber-armor work as an implant? Could a mage/psychic get away with *just* cyber-armor and not have their magic/psionics affected?

ETA: Spelling.

thorr-kan wrote:Main book and Bionics are both clear that a replacement limb (excepting bio-systems; maybe) reduces PPE/ISP by half. So doe two-three implant. I note this is a change from the original main book, where a partial conversion borg could still maintain psionics.

Does cyber-armor work as an implant? Could a mage/psychic get away with *just* cyber-armor and not have their magic/psionics affected?

Yes Cyber-Armor still works as an implant.

Yes, one implant will not effect magic/psionics, though most classes probably aren't going to go for them w/o a need (IIRC). It's also possible that the Cyber-Armor doesn't count toward interference for psychics based on the Cyber-Knights (though they don't use stock Cyber-Armor), but might count toward PPE disruption to "wearing" all that metal (off hand I forget the coverage area to be a factor).

As a GM one could allow it to not count as an implant that impacts magic/psionic aspects for a character.

ShadowLogan wrote:

thorr-kan wrote:Main book and Bionics are both clear that a replacement limb (excepting bio-systems; maybe) reduces PPE/ISP by half. So doe two-three implant. I note this is a change from the original main book, where a partial conversion borg could still maintain psionics.

Does cyber-armor work as an implant? Could a mage/psychic get away with *just* cyber-armor and not have their magic/psionics affected?

Yes Cyber-Armor still works as an implant.

Yes, one implant will not effect magic/psionics, though most classes probably aren't going to go for them w/o a need (IIRC). It's also possible that the Cyber-Armor doesn't count toward interference for psychics based on the Cyber-Knights (though they don't use stock Cyber-Armor), but might count toward PPE disruption to "wearing" all that metal (off hand I forget the coverage area to be a factor).

As a GM one could allow it to not count as an implant that impacts magic/psionic aspects for a character.

I wonder...if you made the cyber-armor of magic materials?
Then again, even TW cybernetics count as regular implants with regards to interfering with inherent magic abilities, since the body doesn't accept them as natural.

Go, then, for magic symbiotes...less chance of rejection and you keep your own magic.

taalismn wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

thorr-kan wrote:Main book and Bionics are both clear that a replacement limb (excepting bio-systems; maybe) reduces PPE/ISP by half. So doe two-three implant. I note this is a change from the original main book, where a partial conversion borg could still maintain psionics.

Does cyber-armor work as an implant? Could a mage/psychic get away with *just* cyber-armor and not have their magic/psionics affected?

Yes Cyber-Armor still works as an implant.

Yes, one implant will not effect magic/psionics, though most classes probably aren't going to go for them w/o a need (IIRC). It's also possible that the Cyber-Armor doesn't count toward interference for psychics based on the Cyber-Knights (though they don't use stock Cyber-Armor), but might count toward PPE disruption to "wearing" all that metal (off hand I forget the coverage area to be a factor).

As a GM one could allow it to not count as an implant that impacts magic/psionic aspects for a character.

I wonder...if you made the cyber-armor of magic materials?
Then again, even TW cybernetics count as regular implants with regards to interfering with inherent magic abilities, since the body doesn't accept them as natural.

Go, then, for magic symbiotes...less chance of rejection and you keep your own magic.

Right...symbiotes. And become Spluggie tool. No thanks. (I know I spelled that wrong.)

I don't think materials are going to matter. Though cybermagic implants from Through the Glass Darkly won't count...

The main book says it takes two cybernetic implants to impact magic-psionic abilities, or one bionic. Cyber-Armor is just one. ergo if that's the only one, it has no impact.

just to be clear, i would ignore cyber-knight cyber-armour because it isn't really an implant for them, it's a living part of their body.

but apart from that? it is totally an implant.

Actually it only becomes a living part at higher levels, it's a normal (albeit enchanted by Techno-Wizards to become alive at higher levels) implant until then.

Since post-SoT we have a cyber-knight NPC who didn't have this at all, there are probably also cyber-knights who only get the normal kind and not the SoT-boosted kind. Having TW-enchanted armor isn't a smart bet if you want to do covert recon in CS territory, for example.

Are there any cyber-knight NPCs with 2 or more implants? We could see if any penalties are mentioned for them

Axelmania wrote:Actually it only becomes a living part at higher levels, it's a normal (albeit enchanted by Techno-Wizards to become alive at higher levels) implant until then.

Since post-SoT we have a cyber-knight NPC who didn't have this at all, there are probably also cyber-knights who only get the normal kind and not the SoT-boosted kind. Having TW-enchanted armor isn't a smart bet if you want to do covert recon in CS territory, for example.

Are there any cyber-knight NPCs with 2 or more implants? We could see if any penalties are mentioned for them

Do you have a page reference for the techno-wizard involvement in the process? I've only ever read that a techno-wizard introduced the process (SoT: Cyber-Knights p. 21). No mention of the armor being enchanted is made in that section.

I think I was remembering the page you just referenced. I suppose a Techno-Wizard could have introduced something entirely unrelated to Techno-Wizardry or any sort of magic whatsoever. I am prone to assuming there is some kind of implication that since they bothered to point out his magical occupation that it's likely got something to do with magic, if we had to guess. But you're right, not an absolute rule.

Of course, magic being involved in a process wouldn't necessarily mean they'd register as magic. I seem to recall something about techno-wizard items (even though they have spells encoded into them, which are usable even if the wielder doesn't know them) not registering as magic except when activated, so cyber-armor might be the same.

If it was magic based perhaps the only time it should be considered "active" is when it is healing itself? Charging a Cyber-Knight an equivalent amount of PPE per MDC healed (or maybe just 1 per 1D6?) wouldn't be horribly unbalanced as a house rule to account for that.

First, I'd count Cyber-Armor as just one implant (maybe two just because of the large area it covers), but I would not penalize a mage/psychic if that's all they had.

As for Cyber-Knights, I'm reluctant to cite their version is support of how normal Cyber-Armor works. On RUE p65: 'The warrior is also given special "Cyber-Armor" that is fused to his body.' How much emphasis one reads into the word "special" changes how applicable it is as an example. Your mileage may vary.

Thanks for everybody's input.

The original line of thought was, with an adventurer's life, I can see a lot of people getting cyber-armor as a backup armor. Power armor or body armor are better. But if caught with your pants down, cyber-armor could save your life.

Mack wrote:First, I'd count Cyber-Armor as just one implant (maybe two just because of the large area it covers), but I would not penalize a mage/psychic if that's all they had.

As for Cyber-Knights, I'm reluctant to cite their version is support of how normal Cyber-Armor works. On RUE p65: 'The warrior is also given special "Cyber-Armor" that is fused to his body.' How much emphasis one reads into the word "special" changes how applicable it is as an example. Your mileage may vary.

I figure the special aspect referred to how after an interdeminate amount of time (leveling up) it became alive and started growing stronger and healing itself.

The 'living metal' aspect might cease to be considered an implant at that point? Not sure.

If it's just TW though, I think Momano Headhunters still take penalties.

Cyberknights tend to only have the cyberarmor though, no other implants, so whether it has special properties when first implanted is largely moot.

Where's it say they tend to only have the armor?

Axelmania wrote:Where's it say they tend to only have the armor?

Cyber-Knights and their implant preferance status is listed in the OCC in RMB (pg64), SoT4 (pg32), RUE (pg67). All pretty much state "not opposed to cybernetic augmentation, just not for them.". SoT4 and RUE are a bit more elaborate than RMB.

SoT4 also has a number of stated NPC cybernights, most in the abbreviated bare-info format, but 4 are fully stated out. The only other CyberKnight NPC I can think of being stated out is the one with Erin Tarn in WB4. Only 2/5ths (40%) of them have any implants beyond Cyber-Armor being mentioned. If the a cliff-notes NPCs are take at value the percentage goes down. IINM neither of the CKs with more implants list any kind of negative (doesn't mean it couldn't already be factored in).

Mack wrote:First, I'd count Cyber-Armor as just one implant (maybe two just because of the large area it covers), but I would not penalize a mage/psychic if that's all they had.

As for Cyber-Knights, I'm reluctant to cite their version is support of how normal Cyber-Armor works. On RUE p65: 'The warrior is also given special "Cyber-Armor" that is fused to his body.' How much emphasis one reads into the word "special" changes how applicable it is as an example. Your mileage may vary.

That comes from SoT4. Cyber-Armor is in quotes, which might indicate that it is not true Cyber-Armor, but effectively Cyber-Armor. Similar to how we refer to the CK's signature power as a Psi-Sword, even though there are aspects that suggest it isn't a true Psi-Sword Power (game mechanic and flavor).

In SoT4 pg21 the passage "When a Techno-Wizard introduced the process of fusing bits of Mega-Damage armor to the human body (made possible only through years of Cyber-Knight training)", suggests to me at least that the two are functionally the same (in terms of AR and protection quality), but are practically different (in terms of implantation). This suggests to me at least that maybe the CK's Cyber-Armor isn't so much surgically implanted, but rather magically grafted. That wouldn't necessarily make the implant "magical", after all getting teleported doesn't make one magical.

We should start referring to this CK stuff as Pseudocyberarmor and Pseudopsisword.

Secrets of Atlantis mentions True Atlantean CKs skipping the cyberarmor so it does not interfere, and getting extra tattoos instead. The wording leads me to think that the armor interferes with the magic, but that might be just the fact that you don't have much space on the body for ink. Anyway, I just wanted to muddy the water that much more lol.

RockJock wrote:Secrets of Atlantis mentions True Atlantean CKs skipping the cyberarmor so it does not interfere, and getting extra tattoos instead. The wording leads me to think that the armor interferes with the magic, but that might be just the fact that you don't have much space on the body for ink. Anyway, I just wanted to muddy the water that much more lol.

Or True Atlanteans just don't got for cybermodification as a cultural thing. "We use MAGICAL body modification, dagnabit!"

thorr-kan wrote:

RockJock wrote:Secrets of Atlantis mentions True Atlantean CKs skipping the cyberarmor so it does not interfere, and getting extra tattoos instead. The wording leads me to think that the armor interferes with the magic, but that might be just the fact that you don't have much space on the body for ink. Anyway, I just wanted to muddy the water that much more lol.

Or True Atlanteans just don't got for cybermodification as a cultural thing. "We use MAGICAL body modification, dagnabit!"

the funny thing about that is that they (supposedly) literally cannot use magical body modification

Shark_Force wrote:

thorr-kan wrote:

RockJock wrote:Secrets of Atlantis mentions True Atlantean CKs skipping the cyberarmor so it does not interfere, and getting extra tattoos instead. The wording leads me to think that the armor interferes with the magic, but that might be just the fact that you don't have much space on the body for ink. Anyway, I just wanted to muddy the water that much more lol.

Or True Atlanteans just don't got for cybermodification as a cultural thing. "We use MAGICAL body modification, dagnabit!"

the funny thing about that is that they (supposedly) literally cannot use magical body modification

So they fixed that in SotA. Now they can not use any other magical body modifications...
well except for the half dozen or so canon listed magical body modifications
But... it's a start I guess? At least we know that their immunity comes with built in loopholes. So we can just pretend that all the other canon body mods use that loophole. Some intentional, some are more like hacker exploits of an unpatched security flaw (seriously... Atlanatian Genome 2.1 is 10,000 years out in some serious need of a systems update.)

eliakon wrote:So they fixed that in SotA. Now they can not use any other magical body modifications...
well except for the half dozen or so canon listed magical body modifications
But... it's a start I guess? At least we know that their immunity comes with built in loopholes. So we can just pretend that all the other canon body mods use that loophole. Some intentional, some are more like hacker exploits of an unpatched security flaw (seriously... Atlanatian Genome 2.1 is 10,000 years out in some serious need of a systems update.)

right, so basically, they can't be magically modified, except for when they can

Shark_Force wrote:

eliakon wrote:So they fixed that in SotA. Now they can not use any other magical body modifications...
well except for the half dozen or so canon listed magical body modifications
But... it's a start I guess? At least we know that their immunity comes with built in loopholes. So we can just pretend that all the other canon body mods use that loophole. Some intentional, some are more like hacker exploits of an unpatched security flaw (seriously... Atlanatian Genome 2.1 is 10,000 years out in some serious need of a systems update.)

right, so basically, they can't be magically modified, except for when they can

This recalls for me the line, "only the Sith deal in absolutes!" A statement that so blatantly contradicts itself, and yet has a certain iconic charm, is certainly worthy of Palladium.
Personally, while I am often frustrated by it, I rather like the weird inconsistencies in the system. It's like being the proud parent of an ugly child, or being attracted to someone for their personality rather than their looks. From the outside, it might not make sense, but there is a quality about it from the inside that makes it perfect in spite of its flaws.

Discounting the suit used by CK's, I'd say yes it would, simply because of how MUCH of the body it involves - essentially from the shoulders to the knees, and to the elbows on the arms...that's a good 80%+ of the body.

But, I also have my mages' personal PPE physically erode environmental armour. Can't remember which PB book I read that in. Essentially, it slowly destroys 10-20% of the protective value until the seals breech.

If I was making a GM ruling, I would rule that cyber armor counts as bionics due to the invasiveness of it.

What you read was probably some stupid rule that says that to cast out of EBA costs 10-20% more then the list cost.

It went from mages don't wear metal armor because the armor interfered with the 'hand/arm wavy'ium' parts causing the spells to fail, to the iron in the steel armor absorbed part of the PPE used causing the spells to fail, to Its the ManMade materials that block magic the magic.

With the RMB the CS type armor was what mages would of wanted because it wasn't metal armor. Now that PB nerfed mages' options for armor so they can be killed off easier.