Forums of the Megaverse®

Just got mine four hours ago...looks good; a lot of reprinted and updated material, but some new stuff.
I'll admit, I'm not a great fan of the True Atlanteans( subconscious something about a branch of them unleashing the Mechanoids on the Megaverse, I suspect), so I went in with a touch of cynicism about these wandering arrogant dimensional goodniks. I was pleasantly surprised, though admittedly not bedazzled.
Expanded info on the Clans we know, new background including internal politics, and some clans we don't already know of. I'll personally probably get the most out of the short creation tables for generating your own Clans.
Oh Wow Moments: A DYSON Sphere?! A freakin' DYSON SPHERE?! Floor plans for Pyramids..nice. New Shadow nastiness for the Sunaj? Expected; you gotta upgrade the baddies. Old pre-Fall Atlantis? Check. Editor cameo shoutout? Okay, we'll let that one slide on the strength of the rest of the book.
Overall, a good companion to the Lemurian book for playing Rifts by-nature superhumans with some real history to them.
Nice to have this volume without having to page through several different books for True Atlantean info.

I give it an 7 out of a possible 10.

If it is like the preview it is actually a dimension of dysonshperes with basically star gates connecting them. I am really looking forward to picking my release copy Thursday.

Got mine today, and have skimmed through it. will be going back to read it later.
There are things that could of been done better. In the Tattoo section they could of used about the same number of characters and just said that the Magic weapon covered with flames and dripping with blood does double the weapon's rated damage +16 in SD to SDC beings and stuff.
As it is I bet someone in the next year is going to come in and ask it the flaming blood dripping magic weapon does (rated x2)+8 or (rated+8)x2.

Yes, I am glade we got the SD/SDC conversion for tattoo weapons that are actually rational.

Whens the pdf out?

I wish I could find my hardcopy of a fanwork Atlantean Flying Pyramid Pilot(aka 'Stone Temple Pilot') that I fund cruising the internet over 20 years ago...it would go just great with the True Atlantean book...I've never been able to find that OCC since....

kaid wrote:If it is like the preview it is actually a dimension of dyson spheres with basically star gates connecting them. I am really looking forward to picking my release copy Thursday.

a single dyson sphere 1 Au in radius would have upwards of 250 Million times the area of the surface of the earth.

an entire universe of Dyson spheres... dear god we'd be talking about near infinite living space.

and considering a single dyson sphere would basically require a Kardashev Type I society.. an entire universe would be far greater than a kardashev Type 3..

Yup the dyson sphere universe was a pretty crazy idea. Funny thing is you can fly through space from one to the other but because every star is surrounded by a dyson sphere it is basically totally devoid of light so navigating in any sort of ship would be problematic. But there are stargate type rooms that allow you to transit from sphere to sphere or dimensional porting.

So do they give a good reason for the Sunaj still being unnoticed by the rest of the Altanteans? Even with them systematically trying to kill off their own kind. Or are they still being given Mary sue levels of plot armor?

Sureshot wrote:So do they give a good reason for the Sunaj still being unnoticed by the rest of the Altanteans? Even with them systematically trying to kill off their own kind. Or are they still being given Mary sue levels of plot armor?

Still a fair bit of plot armor.

Although they did specify that all Aerihman are fanatics, and the Sunaj armor self-destructs (iirc).

Myrrhibis wrote:

Sureshot wrote:So do they give a good reason for the Sunaj still being unnoticed by the rest of the Altanteans? Even with them systematically trying to kill off their own kind. Or are they still being given Mary sue levels of plot armor?

Still a fair bit of plot armor.

Although they did specify that all Aerihman are fanatics, and the Sunaj armor self-destructs (iirc).

Also a lot of what they are doing is siccing other forces on atlanteans so the attacks are coming from other factions and not leading back to the sunaj.

Sureshot wrote:So do they give a good reason for the Sunaj still being unnoticed by the rest of the Altanteans? Even with them systematically trying to kill off their own kind. Or are they still being given Mary sue levels of plot armor?

I was happy with the explanation and expanded background on the Sunaj. Their "Crusade" makes more sense now, and so does their ablity to keep their identity secret. They also upgraded the Sunaj OCCs, 5-6 of them could put a hurt on anyone.

In fact, the entire Atlantean race now fits better in Rifts, the Atlantean History brought them and their motivations into focus.

I like the book alot, well worth the wait and cost. Thanks to everyone that helped to put out another quality book.

SereneTsunami wrote:Their "Crusade" makes more sense now, and so does their ablity to keep their identity secret.

Is it at least a realistic and plausible reason why if I may ask? Or is everyone essentially around them portrayed as being completely clueless and dumber than a bag of hammers when it comes to noticing the Sunaj.

Sureshot wrote:

SereneTsunami wrote:Their "Crusade" makes more sense now, and so does their ablity to keep their identity secret.

Is it at least a realistic and plausible reason why if I may ask? Or is everyone essentially around them portrayed as being completely clueless and dumber than a bag of hammers when it comes to noticing the Sunaj.

One thing to note is while we know what the sunaj are up to the true atlanteans are spread out across the mega verse in mostly pretty small settlements. Even their big cities and major areas are really not that big. A dedicated attacker could seriously decimate them due to their isolation. Even if you can get a call out by the time anybody can or would respond the attackers are gone.

Sureshot wrote:

SereneTsunami wrote:Their "Crusade" makes more sense now, and so does their ablity to keep their identity secret.

Is it at least a realistic and plausible reason why if I may ask? Or is everyone essentially around them portrayed as being completely clueless and dumber than a bag of hammers when it comes to noticing the Sunaj.

Most clans don't even # 1 Million. Many are less than a half-mil.

Their new post-sinking homes, are scattered across many dimensions and worlds, and not all are able/interested in attending clan-assemblies on Alexandria (3 Galaxies). For some, their time stream is faster/slower than "standard", so that affects perception as well.

And as a poster up-thread said, the Sunaj/Aerihman are also using non-Sunaj means to off other clans, mainly smaller clans.

Hell, at one point, 11k Aerihmans were killed by their fellows - if I am remembering correctly, the book says the not all Aerihman clan members know about the Sunaj being part of them, only the most trusted know the connection. They all hate other clans, but aren't actively engaging in genocide.

However, several clans - especially Clan Skellian (South American T-Monster Hunter OCC clan) - don't trust the Aerihman anyhow, because they (Aerihman) thought pre-sinking that Atlanteans should rule mankind, and continue to feel that way & are pushing for war to retake Atlantis.

Sureshot wrote:

SereneTsunami wrote:Their "Crusade" makes more sense now, and so does their ablity to keep their identity secret.

Is it at least a realistic and plausible reason why if I may ask? Or is everyone essentially around them portrayed as being completely clueless and dumber than a bag of hammers when it comes to noticing the Sunaj.

You seem to be predisposed to an outcome her, but I will hazzard that it is a much more deatailed scenario then the page or so they wrote ike 20 years ago. The fact that the Sunaj and Aerihman are nearly totally seperate entities is the key for me. There is very little overlap. It also helps(IMO) that the description of Clan Aerihman's culture and history goes along way toward a pausable motivation for the Sunaj's insane scheme.

The culture of the rest of the clans, whom I have dubbed "Clan Panda", is also made more clear because of the additional revealed history. I still don't care for their choices, but it is much easier for a fan to understand their motivations.

SereneTsunami wrote:

Sureshot wrote:

SereneTsunami wrote:Their "Crusade" makes more sense now, and so does their ablity to keep their identity secret.

Is it at least a realistic and plausible reason why if I may ask? Or is everyone essentially around them portrayed as being completely clueless and dumber than a bag of hammers when it comes to noticing the Sunaj.

You seem to be predisposed to an outcome her, but I will hazzard that it is a much more deatailed scenario then the page or so they wrote ike 20 years ago. The fact that the Sunaj and Aerihman are nearly totally seperate entities is the key for me. There is very little overlap. It also helps(IMO) that the description of Clan Aerihman's culture and history goes along way toward a pausable motivation for the Sunaj's insane scheme.

The culture of the rest of the clans, whom I have dubbed "Clan Panda", is also made more clear because of the additional revealed history. I still don't care for their choices, but it is much easier for a fan to understand their motivations.

Agreed - as with most of the updated info in SOA vs Atlantis.... getting more than a bare-page to 5 pages worth of info, helps make one understand better both Aerihman, Sunaj, and the True Atlantean "I'm better than you" mindset.

At least they have a society now, versus just "dimensional travelers who made a Very Serious Mistake At Home"

I'm not predisposed towards any outcome. I will still buy the book. I don't have to like the Sunaj. I just wish the villains on Rifts Earth would actually suffer from setbacks every now and then. From the looks of it the Sunaj have not. How about writing that some factions are slowly catching on to what Aerihman are doing. Those same factions don't have enough proof to go public. Or resources to fight the Aerihman yet. Instead of having everyone else moving along continually blissfully unaware.

Sureshot wrote:I'm not predisposed towards any outcome. I will still buy the book. I don't have to like the Sunaj. I just wish the villains on Rifts Earth would actually suffer from setbacks every now and then. From the looks of it the Sunaj have not. How about writing that some factions are slowly catching on to what Aerihman are doing. Those same factions don't have enough proof to go public. Or resources to fight the Aerihman yet. Instead of having everyone else moving along continually blissfully unaware.

I'm sure that others will correct me, but many of the other clans don't like the Aerihman, and most are shedding no tears that the Aerihman have decided to tell the other clans to **** off.

And like I said, Clan Skellian is well aware that the other clans would love to learn how to do the T-Monster Hunter magic. And Aerihman has been especially interested. But Skellian is perhaps one of the more suspicious ones about them.

The connection to the Sunaj though - everyone is still oblivious to connections. Aside from (I think) some have noticed Sunaj have been at some of the killings/abductions/etc.

Sureshot wrote:I'm not predisposed towards any outcome. I will still buy the book. I don't have to like the Sunaj. I just wish the villains on Rifts Earth would actually suffer from setbacks every now and then. From the looks of it the Sunaj have not. How about writing that some factions are slowly catching on to what Aerihman are doing. Those same factions don't have enough proof to go public. Or resources to fight the Aerihman yet. Instead of having everyone else moving along continually blissfully unaware.

I think it's up to the players to create the setbacks. This is a game. It makes sense that the writers create a situation the players can step in and resolve. It's moot whether the Sunaj are or are not on the brink of discovery. The players will do it tomorrow (or did it 20 years ago when they first got WB2). Why write a npc that steals the players' thunder?

Jorick wrote:

Sureshot wrote:I'm not predisposed towards any outcome. I will still buy the book. I don't have to like the Sunaj. I just wish the villains on Rifts Earth would actually suffer from setbacks every now and then. From the looks of it the Sunaj have not. How about writing that some factions are slowly catching on to what Aerihman are doing. Those same factions don't have enough proof to go public. Or resources to fight the Aerihman yet. Instead of having everyone else moving along continually blissfully unaware.

I think it's up to the players to create the setbacks. This is a game. It makes sense that the writers create a situation the players can step in and resolve. It's moot whether the Sunaj are or are not on the brink of discovery. The players will do it tomorrow (or did it 20 years ago when they first got WB2). Why write a npc that steals the players' thunder?

Exactly - shortly before the RAW copy came out, my GM had our group discover the information from a high-powered/connected NPC we'd helped out, tell the 2 TAs (both Slayers) about the rumors of Sunaj origin, and the PCs were both like "huh, well d---"

We're currently mulling over whether to try to get better proof than the game-equivalent of the Collector (the NPC is his brother), or if he's full of y'know.

Jorick wrote:

Sureshot wrote:I'm not predisposed towards any outcome. I will still buy the book. I don't have to like the Sunaj. I just wish the villains on Rifts Earth would actually suffer from setbacks every now and then. From the looks of it the Sunaj have not. How about writing that some factions are slowly catching on to what Aerihman are doing. Those same factions don't have enough proof to go public. Or resources to fight the Aerihman yet. Instead of having everyone else moving along continually blissfully unaware.

I think it's up to the players to create the setbacks. This is a game. It makes sense that the writers create a situation the players can step in and resolve. It's moot whether the Sunaj are or are not on the brink of discovery. The players will do it tomorrow (or did it 20 years ago when they first got WB2). Why write a npc that steals the players' thunder?

That, to me, is the problem though.
I have issues with the concept that every problem in the Megaverse, and every evil faction...
...can only be undone by a group of scrappy kids and their dog.
Tens of millions of Atlantians, hundreds of GODS, billions and billions of allies with some of the best intelligence services in the multiverse...
...and no one notices anything until a group of PCs comes in and using their shoestring resources solves the case that has all the experts stumped.
And this is not the only one, this repeats over and over again.
It is, to me, just bad writing and basically author railroading (no, I am sorry no one can see any clues unless you are a PC, choo choo)

eliakon wrote:

Jorick wrote:

Sureshot wrote:I'm not predisposed towards any outcome. I will still buy the book. I don't have to like the Sunaj. I just wish the villains on Rifts Earth would actually suffer from setbacks every now and then. From the looks of it the Sunaj have not. How about writing that some factions are slowly catching on to what Aerihman are doing. Those same factions don't have enough proof to go public. Or resources to fight the Aerihman yet. Instead of having everyone else moving along continually blissfully unaware.

I think it's up to the players to create the setbacks. This is a game. It makes sense that the writers create a situation the players can step in and resolve. It's moot whether the Sunaj are or are not on the brink of discovery. The players will do it tomorrow (or did it 20 years ago when they first got WB2). Why write a npc that steals the players' thunder?

That, to me, is the problem though.
I have issues with the concept that every problem in the Megaverse, and every evil faction...
...can only be undone by a group of scrappy kids and their dog.
Tens of millions of Atlantians, hundreds of GODS, billions and billions of allies with some of the best intelligence services in the multiverse...
...and no one notices anything until a group of PCs comes in and using their shoestring resources solves the case that has all the experts stumped.
And this is not the only one, this repeats over and over again.
It is, to me, just bad writing and basically author railroading (no, I am sorry no one can see any clues unless you are a PC, choo choo)

Isn't that just about every gaming module ever made?

Or the PCs get to be among the many who get snuffed to keep the secret.
"Don't you feel SPECIAL now?"

taalismn wrote:Or the PCs get to be among the many who get snuffed to keep the secret.
"Don't you feel SPECIAL now?"

I do i do!

Also considering the sunaji are dedicated fanatics, of an isolated and scattered race...i see no problem why them not being discovered as atlantean is an issue. If they were itd be a big scandal...and likely cause a big crusade against evil, but then they just vanish, scatter to the megaverse and remain as black armored evil baddies who now may be that atlantean saying hes from clan X. Revealing them in my opinion doesnt change what they do for a pc and having them be a mystery gives pcs something to chase also, if they as stated have a self destruct built into there armor pretty much all evidence is gone or unreachable

And atlantean isolation makes it easy to keep secrets, after all, one nice base on a low techworld, packed with mdc tech and suddenly unless someone succeeds in megaversal needle in a haystack searches...who is gonna find your base?and then the better question will they wanna mess with a mdc highly fortified city? And if they do find it, and do care, then you can find a new haystack or leave no survivors, follow up with a really big boom and who can really say what those tattooed supernatural humanoids were

Nightmartree wrote:

taalismn wrote:Or the PCs get to be among the many who get snuffed to keep the secret.
"Don't you feel SPECIAL now?"

I do i do!

Also considering the sunaji are dedicated fanatics, of an isolated and scattered race...i see no problem why them not being discovered as atlantean is an issue. If they were itd be a big scandal...and likely cause a big crusade against evil, but then they just vanish, scatter to the megaverse and remain as black armored evil baddies who now may be that atlantean saying hes from clan X. Revealing them in my opinion doesnt change what they do for a pc and having them be a mystery gives pcs something to chase also, if they as stated have a self destruct built into there armor pretty much all evidence is gone or unreachable

And atlantean isolation makes it easy to keep secrets, after all, one nice base on a low techworld, packed with mdc tech and suddenly unless someone succeeds in megaversal needle in a haystack searches...who is gonna find your base?and then the better question will they wanna mess with a mdc highly fortified city? And if they do find it, and do care, then you can find a new haystack or leave no survivors, follow up with a really big boom and who can really say what those tattooed supernatural humanoids were

They were Splugorth agents, obviously.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
They were Splugorth agents, obviously.

Obviously, it seems the splugorth are using biowizardry to infiltrate atlantean clans!?

eliakon wrote:

Jorick wrote:

Sureshot wrote:I'm not predisposed towards any outcome. I will still buy the book. I don't have to like the Sunaj. I just wish the villains on Rifts Earth would actually suffer from setbacks every now and then. From the looks of it the Sunaj have not. How about writing that some factions are slowly catching on to what Aerihman are doing. Those same factions don't have enough proof to go public. Or resources to fight the Aerihman yet. Instead of having everyone else moving along continually blissfully unaware.

I think it's up to the players to create the setbacks. This is a game. It makes sense that the writers create a situation the players can step in and resolve. It's moot whether the Sunaj are or are not on the brink of discovery. The players will do it tomorrow (or did it 20 years ago when they first got WB2). Why write a npc that steals the players' thunder?

That, to me, is the problem though.
I have issues with the concept that every problem in the Megaverse, and every evil faction...
...can only be undone by a group of scrappy kids and their dog.
Tens of millions of Atlantians, hundreds of GODS, billions and billions of allies with some of the best intelligence services in the multiverse...
...and no one notices anything until a group of PCs comes in and using their shoestring resources solves the case that has all the experts stumped.
And this is not the only one, this repeats over and over again.
It is, to me, just bad writing and basically author railroading (no, I am sorry no one can see any clues unless you are a PC, choo choo)

I get the frustration, or weirdness, because there's so much backstory and it's all dead ends and/or uncertain time frames. For what it's worth, I think the backstory in this new book is satisfactory.

But, in general, whats the point of writing tension into the fluff if it isn't for the players? If you're running an Atlanteans fighting Sunaj campaign, you can say all these Gods or whatever took care of the Minion War, and Doc Reid handled the Vampires, and whatever you want. Fill in those blanks as a GM. Actually writing NPC heroes into their books however would be railroading, like the classic GM advice column "#1 don't make the mistake of having a pet NPC." There's a thread on this board about how Erin Tarn, who is only an observer, is some kind of Mary Sue Superwoman(?!?). Players tend not to like it when you give NPCs the glory, but Palladium modules, whatever else you feel about 'em, have always been good about setting up the players for glory (or mystery/intrigue/whatever).

It's very easy perhaps too easy to tell the GM to fix what imho I consider a badly written Mary sue.

Eliakon said it better then me and I agree with latest post on the topic. Why is the players and only the players the ones to remotely notice let alone be the ones to stop the Sunaj or any other Mary Sue on Rifts Earth. The rest of the Atlantians (except for one clan), intervention from some gods, a bunch of allies with better resources and some of the best intelligence services. Again I'm not asking for the Sunaj to be found out and completely destroyed. They make great villains. Nothing imo or very little seems to go wrong for the villains in Rifts Earth. Multiple Mary Sues that just seem to have plot armor. Saying it's been done before does not excuse it imo. At this rate Rifts Earth will never be saved. At the very least only when my great, great, great grandkids are still playing and Rifts is still around as a rpg by then.

To be fair in PB defence they are the only ones to do so. I play Pathfinder and one of the factions on Golarion (the core game world) has a faction that is quite obviously a Mary Sue. Their is a country called Galt which is in a constant state of anarchy think Robespierre France except it never ends. Yet somehow the country not only functions like a normal country with a normal government. They can filed a fantasy version of the KGB with the added threat of stationary soul sucking guillotines. With all the country surronding Galt acting very much like modern day versions and not taking advantage of a country in a constant of anarchy.

Sureshot wrote:It's very easy perhaps too easy to tell the GM to fix what imho I consider a badly written Mary sue.

Eliakon said it better then me and I agree with latest post on the topic. Why is the players and only the players the ones to remotely notice let alone be the ones to stop the Sunaj or any other Mary Sue on Rifts Earth. The rest of the Atlantians (except for one clan), intervention from some gods, a bunch of allies with better resources and some of the best intelligence services. Again I'm not asking for the Sunaj to be found out and completely destroyed. They make great villains. Nothing imo or very little seems to go wrong for the villains in Rifts Earth. Multiple Mary Sues that just seem to have plot armor. Saying it's been done before does not excuse it imo. At this rate Rifts Earth will never be saved. At the very least only when my great, great, great grandkids are still playing and Rifts is still around as a rpg by then,

Actually i have something to ask here, does rifts book EVER say anything about the pc's getting hints of what the sunaji are? You seem to be assuming its the players who have to unmask these villians!...except why should they ever have a clue? And things do go wrong for rifts villians, at least one group of people on rifts earth have thrashed several vampire intelligences, the fir bolg giants in england have been beaten back before, and there are places in rifts china were evil dares not tread.
The thing is...if something goes wrong for a rifts villian and they lose...chances are we wont see them again, because hey, supernatural creatures and nations of evil tend to play across centuries of time, they lose and by the time theyre back your pc's can either swat them like flies or have died. We dont read about the losers in rifts books, only the ones who are on top or can make a comeback.

Nightmartree wrote:The thing is...if something goes wrong for a rifts villian and they lose...chances are we wont see them again, because hey, supernatural creatures and nations of evil tend to play across centuries of time, they lose and by the time theyre back your pc's can either swat them like flies or have died. We dont read about the losers in rifts books, only the ones who are on top or can make a comeback.

I like this and it reminds me of Psyscape. Psyscape was ALREADY victorious without help from anybody. The city is legitimately worried now because of the potential danger, and the players could help, but honestly they dealt with it alone before. Why not again? And if they do do it alone again, if that was actually written into the book, why write about it at all?

I still have to wait for my hardback version to arrive. : (

VIsgar wrote:I still have to wait for my hardback version to arrive. : (

The sadness is real.

I was gonna wait for the new Nightbane book to come out, and maybe even bet that the Pecos Empire book would come out soon enough, and just order them all at once to save on shipping. But I couldn't. Without a car (wifey took it on a road trip), my FLGS is a long walk from the metro, and I did it yesterday--without calling, cause I'm a dummy--and when they didn't have it I walked to a second FLGS which is even further away, and they also didn't have it. I called today, they had it, and I made the walk again. Both days in very humid ~90 degree weather. I haven't done something like that for a new release of anything in at least 20 years. Me from 20 years ago loved True Atlanteans, and he never went away.

Worth it.

Nightmartree wrote:Actually i have something to ask here, does rifts book EVER say anything about the pc's getting hints of what the sunaji are? You seem to be assuming its the players who have to unmask these villians!...except why should they ever have a clue? And things do go wrong for rifts villians, at least one group of people on rifts earth have thrashed several vampire intelligences, the fir bolg giants in england have been beaten back before, and there are places in rifts china were evil dares not tread.
The thing is...if something goes wrong for a rifts villian and they lose...chances are we wont see them again, because hey, supernatural creatures and nations of evil tend to play across centuries of time, they lose and by the time theyre back your pc's can either swat them like flies or have died. We dont read about the losers in rifts books, only the ones who are on top or can make a comeback.

Zeus has been noticing that Atlanteans are dying in larger numbers then they should be. Yet even with a god investigating no one is really onto the Sunaj. Again I'm not saying they need to be completely defeated. Yet more people should be noticing something us wrong. One of the thrmes I got from reading the core book is that humanity is supposed to take back their planet. How exactly humanity supposed to do just that if none of the villains ever die and the status quo is forever maintained. Unless some evil factions are defeated humanity is not going to take back anything imo. The Coalition, Triax and others can only do so much. I think some fans want their cake and eat it too imo. They want humanity to win yet don't want their favored villains to be defeated. We can't have both.

Sureshot wrote:
Zeus has been noticing that Atlanteans are dying in larger numbers then they should be. Yet even with a god investigating no one is really onto the Sunaj. Again I'm not saying they need to be completely defeated. Yet more people should be noticing something us wrong. One of the thrmes I got from reading the core book is that humanity is supposed to take back their planet. How exactly humanity supposed to do just that if none of the villains ever die and the status quo is forever maintained. Unless some evil factions are defeated humanity is not going to take back anything imo. The Coalition, Triax and others can only do so much. I think some fans want their cake and eat it too imo. They want humanity to win yet don't want their favored villains to be defeated. We can't have both.

One of the themes for the Atlanteans is they'll never be able to get their home back. And really, neither will "humanity." The CS are trying, but they're the bad guys.

I think you'll like the way the Sunaj are written about in the new book. Specific events, instead of a broad "they are on a campaign to slaughter other Atlanteans, and have been doing so for some undefined period of time," means that we understand exactly why we don't yet know who's doing this, and that the revelation can come at any time.

I will still buy the book. Just felt the need to mention what I may not like about the book. Thanks for giving me a heads up on what to expect.

Sureshot wrote:
Zeus has been noticing that Atlanteans are dying in larger numbers then they should be. Yet even with a god investigating no one is really onto the Sunaj. Again I'm not saying they need to be completely defeated. Yet more people should be noticing something us wrong. One of the thrmes I got from reading the core book is that humanity is supposed to take back their planet. How exactly humanity supposed to do just that if none of the villains ever die and the status quo is forever maintained. Unless some evil factions are defeated humanity is not going to take back anything imo. The Coalition, Triax and others can only do so much. I think some fans want their cake and eat it too imo. They want humanity to win yet don't want their favored villains to be defeated. We can't have both.

Gods are far from infallible, actually im surprised he even noticed?probably just chance that he did. And i feel like its a case of unicorns going extinct if you never see one, is it extinct or just somewhere else? Well in rifts the assumption is its somewhere else...but what if someone is hunting them to make them extinct?would you know?do you interact with unicorns often?replace unicorn with dimension hopping super being and suddenly not seeing someone for a few hundred years and then hearing her died or vanished isnt that far fetched, even "i heard uncle bob was killed by these new assassins the sunaji" isnt really different than "i heard uncle bob died to these unknown guys in black demonic armor". I mean in both of them uncle bob is dead at the hands of evil...and likely followed by a description of guys in mdc armor, tactics used, and how to not die to assassins...which as we all know doesnt do much vs assassins

And i think part of the theme of the original book was humanity trying to survive and find its feet in a new world, i never got the feeling we were ever going back to "humans rule!" As much as the cs wants otherwise. I can definetly see the earth being divided into several super powers, some alien and monsterous, some human, and some other. As it is any of the major forces in rifts have yet to face something that could trully put them down, and none of them are in a hurry to go kiss the wmd next door either (excluding maybe the ngr/gargoyle war?i dont know all the details there though)

Nightmartree wrote:

Sureshot wrote:
Zeus has been noticing that Atlanteans are dying in larger numbers then they should be. Yet even with a god investigating no one is really onto the Sunaj. Again I'm not saying they need to be completely defeated. Yet more people should be noticing something us wrong. One of the thrmes I got from reading the core book is that humanity is supposed to take back their planet. How exactly humanity supposed to do just that if none of the villains ever die and the status quo is forever maintained. Unless some evil factions are defeated humanity is not going to take back anything imo. The Coalition, Triax and others can only do so much. I think some fans want their cake and eat it too imo. They want humanity to win yet don't want their favored villains to be defeated. We can't have both.

Gods are far from infallible, actually im surprised he even noticed?probably just chance that he did. And i feel like its a case of unicorns going extinct if you never see one, is it extinct or just somewhere else? Well in rifts the assumption is its somewhere else...but what if someone is hunting them to make them extinct?would you know?do you interact with unicorns often?replace unicorn with dimension hopping super being and suddenly not seeing someone for a few hundred years and then hearing her died or vanished isnt that far fetched, even "i heard uncle bob was killed by these new assassins the sunaji" isnt really different than "i heard uncle bob died to these unknown guys in black demonic armor". I mean in both of them uncle bob is dead at the hands of evil...and likely followed by a description of guys in mdc armor, tactics used, and how to not die to assassins...which as we all know doesnt do much vs assassins

And i think part of the theme of the original book was humanity trying to survive and find its feet in a new world, i never got the feeling we were ever going back to "humans rule!" As much as the cs wants otherwise. I can definetly see the earth being divided into several super powers, some alien and monsterous, some human, and some other. As it is any of the major forces in rifts have yet to face something that could trully put them down, and none of them are in a hurry to go kiss the wmd next door either (excluding maybe the ngr/gargoyle war?i dont know all the details there though)

Gods have the ability to raise the dead...
...it shouldn't be too hard to resurrect a few Sunaj and interrogate them.
There are also a number of spells that allow for post-mortem interrogations.
Then there is the whole suite of stuff like Object Read, Impression, etc..
And it isn't like the Atlantians are exactly hiding. They have well known homes, and colonies which house billions of them. So yes, when a race of worshipers starts dying in large numbers it should be obvious (Never mind that Zeus attacked Hera for killing a few dozen Atlantians... and the Sunaj have killed millions...)

eliakon wrote:And it isn't like the Atlantians are exactly hiding. They have well known homes, and colonies which house billions of them. So yes, when a race of worshipers starts dying in large numbers it should be obvious (Never mind that Zeus attacked Hera for killing a few dozen Atlantians... and the Sunaj have killed millions...)

I think you'll find you have the facts wrong.

Nightmartree wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
They were Splugorth agents, obviously.

Obviously, it seems the splugorth are using biowizardry to infiltrate atlantean clans!?

It was more on the "who are these mysterious magically tatooed assassins?!" line.

'cause, you know, the Splugorth make T-men. Lots and lots of them. =P

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Nightmartree wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:
They were Splugorth agents, obviously.

Obviously, it seems the splugorth are using biowizardry to infiltrate atlantean clans!?

It was more on the "who are these mysterious magically tatooed assassins?!" line.

'cause, you know, the Splugorth make T-men. Lots and lots of them. =P

Ill do one better, a race of "tattoo men" aliens...except they dont use magic. They use psionics to make tatoos real through the power of their minds

Now wont that just muddy the waters

Jorick wrote:
I think you'll find you have the facts wrong.

And i dont have the book so i cant say if he is wrong or right but it feels like he's making assumptions...did it ever say if the atlanteans worshiped gods?i figured they were supposed to be as a race on the level where they didnt need to worship those other alien life forms of extreme power

Though thats totally biased and has nothing to do with what ive read on them (which is admittedly probably less than most people in this thread cause...new book )

Jorick wrote:

eliakon wrote:And it isn't like the Atlantians are exactly hiding. They have well known homes, and colonies which house billions of them. So yes, when a race of worshipers starts dying in large numbers it should be obvious (Never mind that Zeus attacked Hera for killing a few dozen Atlantians... and the Sunaj have killed millions...)

I think you'll find you have the facts wrong.

Okay I'll bite... which facts are wrong?
If you are claiming that there is an error, fine. What is the error, and where is the correction?
Because otherwise your not contributing to the discussion, just trolling those who are.

eliakon wrote:

Jorick wrote:

eliakon wrote:And it isn't like the Atlantians are exactly hiding. They have well known homes, and colonies which house billions of them. So yes, when a race of worshipers starts dying in large numbers it should be obvious (Never mind that Zeus attacked Hera for killing a few dozen Atlantians... and the Sunaj have killed millions...)

I think you'll find you have the facts wrong.

Okay I'll bite... which facts are wrong?
If you are claiming that there is an error, fine. What is the error, and where is the correction?
Because otherwise your not contributing to the discussion, just trolling those who are.

I figured he was refering to the new atlantean book and information from there, i dont have it to know if thats accurate though

Nightmartree wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Jorick wrote:

eliakon wrote:And it isn't like the Atlantians are exactly hiding. They have well known homes, and colonies which house billions of them. So yes, when a race of worshipers starts dying in large numbers it should be obvious (Never mind that Zeus attacked Hera for killing a few dozen Atlantians... and the Sunaj have killed millions...)

I think you'll find you have the facts wrong.

Okay I'll bite... which facts are wrong?
If you are claiming that there is an error, fine. What is the error, and where is the correction?
Because otherwise your not contributing to the discussion, just trolling those who are.

I figured he was refering to the new atlantean book and information from there, i dont have it to know if thats accurate though

If he has information, then he can share it.
Playing secretive "your wrong, but I wont say how" is not discussion. It is trolling.
I made a claim. If he says my claim is wrong, then he can provide evidence to support HIS claim.
As he is not K.S. he does not though just get to say "your wrong because I say your wrong"

eliakon wrote:

Jorick wrote:

eliakon wrote:And it isn't like the Atlantians are exactly hiding. They have well known homes, and colonies which house billions of them. So yes, when a race of worshipers starts dying in large numbers it should be obvious (Never mind that Zeus attacked Hera for killing a few dozen Atlantians... and the Sunaj have killed millions...)

I think you'll find you have the facts wrong.

Okay I'll bite... which facts are wrong?
If you are claiming that there is an error, fine. What is the error, and where is the correction?
Because otherwise your not contributing to the discussion, just trolling those who are.

Im not trying to bait you. The book is cool. Im trying to avoid spoilers. My contribution to this discussion is that the book has value and clears up many of the issues people have. I'm not gonna reprint it here for you, and you can take or leave my opinion. I didn't even say "you're wrong." I said "I think you'll find you have the facts wrong," suggesting that if you read the book, your opinion will change.

Every single fact you wrote is wrong. No billions of Atlanteans anywhere. No millions killed by the Sunaj. WB2 explicitly states "aided by the Splugorth, their minions, and other supernatural fiends [therefore not only Sunaj doing the killing, which is significant] have successfully slaughtered thousands of heroic Atlanteans by using the most cowardly and duplicitous methods [also significant]." WB2 pg. 63. The entire Atlantean population is not given, but "scattered throughout the endless dimensions of the universe" are the "mostly transdimensional" progeny of the approximately 1 million that escaped Earth during the catastrophe. WB2 pg. 14. There are "comparatively few" permanent societies with "a population that seldom exceeds more than 50k," and they deliberately try not to rebuild. Most Atlanteans are nomads, and wander in groups of 3 to 12 with some groups as large as 200. WB2 pg. 14.

Even if the uncertain estimate of 10% - 15% of Atlanteans mysteriously killed could possibly be accurate (WB2 pg. 15), your numbers are incredibly inflated without any further evidence. This is a population of nomads determined to constantly pursue and fight evil. Not a lifestyle conducive to population growth.

Also, significantly, 1300 Aerhimans (the clan to which belong the Sunaj) were killed by mysterious assassins. WB2 pg 15.

Only two "known" colonies (before this new book): Manoa, which houses 50k Atlanteans, and Alexandria, which also has "over" 50k. WB6 pg. 86, and DB3 pg. 35, reprinted in DB5 pg. 92. EDIT: and to be clear, "clans" are not "colonies." Indeed, the wandering groups of 200 are generally comprised of members from numerous clans, for instance. WB2 pg 14.
.
Zeus was in love with an Atlantean woman. Hera killed her and her family. No one prayed to anyone. CB2 pg. 70.

EDIT 2: Also, it was only at a "recent" clan gathering that anyone talked about the mysterious deaths. That recent gathering could have been yesterday. There's no reason Zeus, or even most wandering Atlanteans, would know about it.

I believe that covers everything. I have only used evidence from older books. I needed to reveal no new information to provide relevant facts to support my statements. I apologize if you felt I was just giving you a hard time. That was not my intention. Because I knew the facts, it seemed to me that you were inventing complete fictions, for reasons unknown, and that did not seem helpful for the discussion either. Hopefully this collection of information, provided without spoilers, is enough to prove my point, and the time I took to provide it is appreciated.

I've occasionally wondered why some small clan of Atlanteans doesn't settle down in some handy, safe, out-of-the-way world and breed like the Amish for a few centuries. With their long lifespans and lack of disease, you could essentially have undamped exponential population growth.

Hotrod wrote:I've occasionally wondered why some small clan of Atlanteans doesn't settle down in some handy, safe, out-of-the-way world and breed like the Amish for a few centuries. With their long lifespans and lack of disease, you could essentially have undamped exponential population growth.

The short answer is "they don't want to." But some sort of do. See the new book.

For those complaining about the bad guys not having setbacks, the Phase World Sunaj Cell has a situation on its hands that threatens to spiral out of control.

Hotrod wrote:I've occasionally wondered why some small clan of Atlanteans doesn't settle down in some handy, safe, out-of-the-way world and breed like the Amish for a few centuries. With their long lifespans and lack of disease, you could essentially have undamped exponential population growth.

One reason for their lower population is in a lot of ways why they are pretty well know. When a good chunk of your population are dimensional travelers and undead slayers they tend to not live to their maximum age. Also they have made a lot of enemies of undead and monster races over the years so attrition is a problem.

And it does look like at least some clans are doing just that going to out of the way dimensions/worlds setting up camp. But wander lust seems to be a big factor with atlanteans and their desire to wander through dimensions is a pretty hazardous vocation.

eliakon wrote:

Nightmartree wrote:

Sureshot wrote:
Zeus has been noticing that Atlanteans are dying in larger numbers then they should be. Yet even with a god investigating no one is really onto the Sunaj. Again I'm not saying they need to be completely defeated. Yet more people should be noticing something us wrong. One of the thrmes I got from reading the core book is that humanity is supposed to take back their planet. How exactly humanity supposed to do just that if none of the villains ever die and the status quo is forever maintained. Unless some evil factions are defeated humanity is not going to take back anything imo. The Coalition, Triax and others can only do so much. I think some fans want their cake and eat it too imo. They want humanity to win yet don't want their favored villains to be defeated. We can't have both.

Gods are far from infallible, actually im surprised he even noticed?probably just chance that he did. And i feel like its a case of unicorns going extinct if you never see one, is it extinct or just somewhere else? Well in rifts the assumption is its somewhere else...but what if someone is hunting them to make them extinct?would you know?do you interact with unicorns often?replace unicorn with dimension hopping super being and suddenly not seeing someone for a few hundred years and then hearing her died or vanished isnt that far fetched, even "i heard uncle bob was killed by these new assassins the sunaji" isnt really different than "i heard uncle bob died to these unknown guys in black demonic armor". I mean in both of them uncle bob is dead at the hands of evil...and likely followed by a description of guys in mdc armor, tactics used, and how to not die to assassins...which as we all know doesnt do much vs assassins

And i think part of the theme of the original book was humanity trying to survive and find its feet in a new world, i never got the feeling we were ever going back to "humans rule!" As much as the cs wants otherwise. I can definetly see the earth being divided into several super powers, some alien and monsterous, some human, and some other. As it is any of the major forces in rifts have yet to face something that could trully put them down, and none of them are in a hurry to go kiss the wmd next door either (excluding maybe the ngr/gargoyle war?i dont know all the details there though)

Gods have the ability to raise the dead...
...it shouldn't be too hard to resurrect a few Sunaj and interrogate them.
There are also a number of spells that allow for post-mortem interrogations.
Then there is the whole suite of stuff like Object Read, Impression, etc..
And it isn't like the Atlantians are exactly hiding. They have well known homes, and colonies which house billions of them. So yes, when a race of worshipers starts dying in large numbers it should be obvious (Never mind that Zeus attacked Hera for killing a few dozen Atlantians... and the Sunaj have killed millions...)

One thing to note is with the power tattoo explosion all sunaj now have a pretty much at will self destruct power that is REALLY hard to prevent them from activating. And if they do activate it there won't be much left to revive. I think eventually the secret gets out somebody gets disillusioned or turned by some other means but for now since most atlanteans don't even know about the threat to start investigating it the secret remaining seems reasonable.

Hotrod wrote:I've occasionally wondered why some small clan of Atlanteans doesn't settle down in some handy, safe, out-of-the-way world and breed like the Amish for a few centuries. With their long lifespans and lack of disease, you could essentially have undamped exponential population growth.

Perhaps their fertility cycles are longer and slower(Atlanteans as pandas)? Or they peak early, and in a long duration life span, that means many many years of diminishing returns on the fertility of Atlantean women.
Of course,crazy magic stasis and/or rejuvenation might solve that problem, or living in a pyramid love hotel....