Cattle

[RavenStarver]

I can't find stats or cost for cattle anywhere, cows, bulls, nothing. Any idea what book these might be in?

[mercedogre]

closest thing i can find is bears

[mercedogre]

also horses in PFRPG Monsters and animals p 204 and an ox and a buffalo pg 200 and bison pg 198

[drewkitty ~..~]

Found this on-line.

So, in other words, you start with a 1200 pound steer, which has a dressing percent of 63%, so that you have a 750 pound carcass. From that you will get about 65% of the carcass weight, or roughly 490 pounds, as boneless, trimmed beef.

The prices for meat are listed in 2 lb. increments. 490/2=245

going with smoked beef of 8 gp. -½ for work impute and markup you get 4 gp.

245x4=980 gp

Take 10% of the 260 of the rest of the carcass as meat for sausage making. divid that by 2 as did above. (130) And cut the list price in half, which gets to 130 gp.

Cut meat & sausage meat=980+130=1120 gp per steer.

1120 gp is my best estimate.

[RavenStarver]

Found this on-line.

So, in other words, you start with a 1200 pound steer, which has a dressing percent of 63%, so that you have a 750 pound carcass. From that you will get about 65% of the carcass weight, or roughly 490 pounds, as boneless, trimmed beef.

The prices for meat are listed in 2 lb. increments. 490/2=245

going with smoked beef of 8 gp. -½ for work impute and markup you get 4 gp.

245x4=980 gp

Take 10% of the 260 of the rest of the carcass as meat for sausage making. divid that by 2 as did above. (130) And cut the list price in half, which gets to 130 gp.

Cut meat & sausage meat=980+130=1120 gp per steer.

1120 gp is my best estimate.

Wow, my players will quickly become cattle rustlers if that's the case.

[kiralon]

120gp for hanging weight in the book for a full cow.
so that's probably killed and skinned and they are just about to start trimming. (Its hanging up on hooks)

[RavenStarver]

120gp for hanging weight in the book for a full cow.
so that's probably killed and skinned and they are just about to start trimming. (Its hanging up on hooks)

That sounds a lot more reasonable, and makes peasants able to afford them.

[ShadowLogan]

I can't find stats or cost for cattle anywhere, cows, bulls, nothing. Any idea what book these might be in?

Stats:
PPE & Hit Points can be found on pg156 of the 2E Main Book as "Cattle", damage (teeth or horns) can be found in the Metamorphosis: Animal Spell on pg202 (2E Main Book).

Stats outside of 2E Palladium Fantasy could use Mutant Animal Template, and just spend BIO-E in such a way to give you an un-mutated animal from TMNT (might be in ATB I don't know) if you have the book.

I found the cost for a whole cow under Fresh Meat on pg274 (2E Main Book), listed as "Beef, whole cow", but the value seems awfully low when you consider the various costs for products made from the animal (meat, blood, hide products, etc)

[drewkitty ~..~]

120gp for hanging weight in the book for a full cow.
so that's probably killed and skinned and they are just about to start trimming. (Its hanging up on hooks)

Had not seen that.
That does mean that the smokers and sausage makers are marking-up their product quite a bit. Or that includes both the maker's and seller's mark-ups.

[kiralon]

120gp for hanging weight in the book for a full cow.
so that's probably killed and skinned and they are just about to start trimming. (Its hanging up on hooks)

Had not seen that.
That does mean that the smokers and sausage makers are marking-up their product quite a bit. Or that includes both the maker's and seller's mark-ups.

Truly, IRL a cow sold for $1500 by the farmer turns into ~$5000 to $8000 worth of packaged meat on the supermarket shelves, so would be minimum 450-700 gp worth of packaged meat, and likely even more as the work is all done by hand.

[Amberjack]

How about a camel, has anyone stated one up

[drewkitty ~..~]

How about a camel, has anyone stated one up

I would be lazy and just use the ones for cattle.

[mirithol]

When I was a butcher, a quarter (untrimmed) of a cow would come in around plus or minus 150 pounds (up to 180). But with no refrigeration (like in a low fantasy world) the loss rate may decrease the final yield. On the other hand a mage with ice spells or a butcher in the Northern Wilderness would do a smashing business.

A game mechanic from Medieval Total War was horses were scared of camels - so don't write off camels, but they are tough and taste like old, nasty chicken.

[Razorwing]

When I was a butcher, a quarter (untrimmed) of a cow would come in around plus or minus 150 pounds (up to 180). But with no refrigeration (like in a low fantasy world) the loss rate may decrease the final yield. On the other hand a mage with ice spells or a butcher in the Northern Wilderness would do a smashing business.

A game mechanic from Medieval Total War was horses were scared of camels - so don't write off camels, but they are tough and taste like old, nasty chicken.

Even the Northern Wilderness isn't cold enough all the time to preserve meat through cold (they do have spring, summer and autumn up there). Most mages have better things to do with their time than act as a refrigerator for industrial level meat processing.

The truth of the matter is that before refrigeration, most meats were smoked and/or salted to preserve them (one of the reasons salt was incredibly valuable in a lot of places... valuable enough to sometimes be used as currency). While butchers often made a fair bit on selling fresh meat to the upper class, the meat they didn't sell was often smoked to that they could preserve it and still make some money selling it to middle and lower classes (though even then it was a luxury item in many households).

Most of the food that adventurers will be taking with them on their quests will be preserved foods... jerky, dried fruits, nuts and such. Occasionally, there may be the occasional hunted game animal, but that can be tricky in more developed areas where Nobility claims such animals (at least the larger) as theirs alone to kill... anyone else doing so, for any reason, is poaching.

The point is that modern meat processing is a result of industrialization and technology that allows more animals to be slaughtered and preserved for longer periods of time than one would find in a pre-industrial society like those found on Palladium. Even the presence of magic isn't going to affect this much as hiring a spellcaster to perform such magics is going to be expensive... if one can find a mage that can and will cast such spells (men of magic aren't exactly common to begin with, and the spells to do this are not widely known). There may be some business bringing ice to civilized areas (the Romans were known to bring ice to their cities from mountain glaciers using straw and hay to insulate it from melting before it got to market), but even that is going to be more for the Nobility rather than commoners.

[Axelmania]

In a lot of places you wouldn't even need to freeze meet because once a summoner set up a Summon Animals circle, someone could come along and activate it to teleport in cows from other dimensions on the cheap and you could eat it fresh.

[Razorwing]

You are treating magic as an industry... it isn't. Magic wielders are more like artists than inventors. They are don't usually appreciate their talents being wasted on mundane things... such as providing cheap meat for spoiled nobility.

Magic may be the equivalent to technology on Palladium... but it isn't as prevalent nor as easy to access as our technology. At best, it should be treated much like luxury items were before mass production and industrialization made goods easier and cheaper to produce. Every sorcerer is an artisan... and they expect to be treated with respect... not as a lackey or an employee to be ordered around.

"Summon this"... "freeze that"... "blow this up"... these are orders that are more likely to see a mage walk out on you (if not teach you some respect for their power). Trivial things, like producing food is what one has farmers for... not a mage and the first time anyone does so (without a damn good reason for doing so) is likely to be the last time one asks them to do so.

[Axelmania]

A summoner doesn't start off very wealthy and it's not incredibly hard to make a basic animal summoning circle to summon cows to kill. If they can make money easily doing that, they would.

If they can have a minion power the circle and butcher/sell the cattle instead while the summoner is in the back room studying, even better, but they'd still want the gold.

[glitterboy2098]

Except that summoning spells don't create animals.. They call them to you from nearby. So all a summoning spell does is allow cattle rustling via remote.

[Razorwing]

Again, you are applying industrial mentality to a pre-industrial world... treating magic as key component to make the mage as rich as possible as quickly as possible.

Most men of magic do not treat their gifts in such a mundane way.

Besides... what one summoner can steal... another can retrieve. It is possible that the more successful ranchers will hire a Summoner to create a similar circle that allows for the retrieval of stolen cattle... using the brand they put on their cattle to identify their property.

More importantly... many butchers are likely to recognize such brands... or at least recognize an unusual one and question where the animal came from. Add to that, the very likely investigation where the animal was taken from, and things can quickly become more than this use of magic is worth. While such activity can be lucrative, it isn't a great money maker as it initially appears.

[Axelmania]

Except that summoning spells don't create animals.. They call them to you from nearby. So all a summoning spell does is allow cattle rustling via remote.

Summon Animals has the option of summoning them from nearby on the same world for less PPE (not a wise idea since they could be branded and tracked to you more easily) but if you spend more PPE they can be summoned from other dimensions instead.

Cross-dimensional cattle-rustling is much less risky. It could still come to bite you but the simple fact of the matter is that if you cross a power with the means of making dimensional portals to come get revenge against you, they probably have their own summoning circles to steal cows back.

The existence of cattle-rustling summoners actually makes farming altogether a risky business since your herds could be picked off at any time.

Again, you are applying industrial mentality to a pre-industrial world... treating magic as key component to make the mage as rich as possible as quickly as possible.

Most men of magic do not treat their gifts in such a mundane way.

Source? I think a lot of mages would like to get wealthy. Even if they aren't greedy in traditional terms, a Summoner could use gold to buy Circles of Power from the local alchemist, or to build a castle for security, pay a Diabolist to create wards to help manage contained creatures, buy magical items, buy food, etc.

Besides... what one summoner can steal... another can retrieve. It is possible that the more successful ranchers will hire a Summoner to create a similar circle that allows for the retrieval of stolen cattle... using the brand they put on their cattle to identify their property.

I don't know if Summon Animal can be that specific. I guess you could Summon Minion if you were attached to a specific pet cow and had named them or had their hair or blood.

In my outline though, a circle would only be used to summon a cow moments before butchering them, so there would be no point counter-summoning, they would be dead.

More importantly... many butchers are likely to recognize such brands... or at least recognize an unusual one and question where the animal came from. Add to that, the very likely investigation where the animal was taken from, and things can quickly become more than this use of magic is worth. While such activity can be lucrative, it isn't a great money maker as it initially appears.

This is why you would use the 100 PPE cross-dimensional Summon Animal not the cheaper 60 PPE surrounding-area one.

Once you actually make the circle it's the same cheap 5 PPE to activate it (Summoner or anyone else) so it's a greater return (in reduced risk) for minimal investment.

To control who is able to bring the cattle, a Summoner would be wise the seal the circle. Any minions who they want to enable to do the cattle-summoning for them would have to reveal their true names to the summoner to be able to enter and use the activated circle.

[Razorwing]

Let's look at the actual implications of doing something like this.

Now... first of all, the Summoner knows that he is taking the cattle from someplace. It may be another dimension or somewhere else on Palladium... but he knows it is from somewhere... thus he is willfully stealing these animals. Thus, this Summoner won't be of Good Alignment (even Selfish Alignments may be difficult to justify).

Next, does the area he is in have the potential to have ranches to raise cattle? If not, then people are going to wonder where this fresh meat is coming from as there are no ranches for a butcher to get beef from. Since there is no large scale means of refrigeration, such meat can't be imported through the usual means, thus people are going to suspect supernatural means of importation... which can still be taxed by the local government (tax evasion is a serious crime in many medieval societies... and using magic to smuggle goods in is also a crime, one more serious than just regular smuggling).

Now if the area does have ranches... and none of their livestock is missing or has been slaughtered, people are going to wonder where this meat is coming from still. In this case, it will be the ranchers who make a living off of selling their livestock to butchers... who will now be paying less for beef as there is an alternative source... cutting into the profits of the ranchers. Now your Summoner is stepping on the toes of actual businessmen... and as anyone who watches Westerns knows... many ranchers don't take kindly to people who cross them. It is very likely that these ranches are owned by nobles who enjoy a monopoly on providing the area with meat... allowing them to demand hefty prices from those who wish to buy their cattle... and have the power and influence to make life very tough for any Summoner who tries to take a cut of their profits.

And this is just from the locals. Now, as I said before, these cattle will come from somewhere, which means that someone else will be looking for them. Magic, even summoning magic, often leaves traces that those sensitive enough could potentially track back to their source. Even if one takes the cattle from another dimension, chances are that sooner or later, someone will come looking for the thief... and anyone powerful enough to not only track such theft across dimensions but also make the journey is going to be serious trouble for the Summoner. Such individuals are not likely to meekly accept that the animals have been slaughtered and just leave... but are likely to demand considerable compensation. Depending who these cattle were taken from... it may even be grounds for the start of an interdimensional conflict... something the locals are not likely to be happy with (and are likely to give up the Summoner for just punishment to avoid it).

So... no matter how you justify such an action, there will be serious consequences for it that will need to be dealt with in some way... which is likely to deter many summoners from such get-rich-quick schemes. Besides... they are likely to make more money with more legitimate sales of their talents (especially non-permanent circles). it may not be as fast... but it won't be as dangerous to their health from as many sources as this method can be (whether it is from one's own government, disgruntled rivals or other dimensional beings... danger is still danger... something a smart Summoner will try to avoid whenever possible).

[kiralon]

and interdimensional cattle might be 5 headed dragons that respond to the name daisy or takhisis or something.

[Razorwing]

and interdimensional cattle might be 5 headed dragons that respond to the name daisy or takhisis or something.

Not likely... when building the circle, one uses the blood of the type of animal one is summoning... thus using cattle blood will not dimensionally teleport a dragon even if dragons in that dimension are used and treated like cattle.

Additionally, the 100 PPE cost to dimensionally "pop" an animal from another land doesn't actually state that the animal comes from another dimension (like Rifts Earth), but rather creates a dimensional tear that the creature appears through. It is possible to create dimensional rifts to other points on the same world without crossing into a different world. It seems that the 60 PPE cost would only summon from a relatively close distance (10 to 100 mile radius), while the 100 PPE cost extends that to anywhere in the world (and possibly beyond). It is likely to be difficult to be sure which is happening until someone shows up tracking the magic that stole their cattle.

To put in terms that are a little easier to understand... if one is in the Western Empire and uses the 60 PPE version, then the chances are the cattle comes from somewhere within the province you are in (maybe a neighboring province). With the 100 PPE version, the cattle could come from anywhere on the Palladium World (even as far as the Eastern Territories), and while it is also possible that it might come from another dimension... it is probably the less likely source (especially since the symbol for summoning across dimensions is not part of the design of this circle).

[Axelmania]

Let's look at the actual implications of doing something like this.

Now... first of all, the Summoner knows that he is taking the cattle from someplace. It may be another dimension or somewhere else on Palladium... but he knows it is from somewhere... thus he is willfully stealing these animals. Thus, this Summoner won't be of Good Alignment (even Selfish Alignments may be difficult to justify).

I don't agree with that. He could possibly be summoning wild cattle, after all, who would not be someone else's property. If he summons a branded one, he could always return it and try again.

He also doesn't necessarily know, even if it is branded, that it was in the possession of the rightful owner. He may not even recognize the idea that you can own living beings. I could see a Principled summoner using 'Summon Animal' to "free the wrongly imprisoned cows who belong to no man" although in that case they wouldn't be selling them, jut sending them to a nature preserve.

Next, does the area he is in have the potential to have ranches to raise cattle? If not, then people are going to wonder where this fresh meat is coming from as there are no ranches for a butcher to get beef from.

True, it could raise consumer problems in magic-phobic areas, much like wizards trying to make money by mass-casting 'Create Bread and Milk' would if there wasn't a local grainery or dairy farm.

supernatural means of importation... which can still be taxed by the local government (tax evasion is a serious crime in many medieval societies... and using magic to smuggle goods in is also a crime, one more serious than just regular smuggling).

Taxes are usually a percentage of purchase, hard to do when you get the animals for free. If the government wants to take a cut of the sales they could do that, the Summoner doesn't necessarily have to be a tax-dodger.

Now if the area does have ranches... and none of their livestock is missing or has been slaughtered, people are going to wonder where this meat is coming from still. In this case, it will be the ranchers who make a living off of selling their livestock to butchers... who will now be paying less for beef as there is an alternative source... cutting into the profits of the ranchers. Now your Summoner is stepping on the toes of actual businessmen... and as anyone who watches Westerns knows... many ranchers don't take kindly to people who cross them. It is very likely that these ranches are owned by nobles who enjoy a monopoly on providing the area with meat... allowing them to demand hefty prices from those who wish to buy their cattle... and have the power and influence to make life very tough for any Summoner who tries to take a cut of their profits.

I agree, but they will still eventually be put out of business. There will be rival businessmen willing to provide protection to the Summoner for a cut of the profits.

And this is just from the locals. Now, as I said before, these cattle will come from somewhere, which means that someone else will be looking for them. Magic, even summoning magic, often leaves traces that those sensitive enough could potentially track back to their source. Even if one takes the cattle from another dimension, chances are that sooner or later, someone will come looking for the thief... and anyone powerful enough to not only track such theft across dimensions but also make the journey is going to be serious trouble for the Summoner.

It's too much trouble to go to. The ones most likely to want to do this are the ones least likely to have the capability for it. Occasionally you'll have to deal with some mad godling who creates dimensional portals to retrieve his holy cows, but not often enough for it to actually be a reasonable fear for Summoners to have.

If anything, the dimensional portal created every time a summoning is done could be a greater concern if it has a propensity for releasing Poltergeists in PF as it does in Rifts.

Such individuals are not likely to meekly accept that the animals have been slaughtered and just leave... but are likely to demand considerable compensation. Depending who these cattle were taken from... it may even be grounds for the start of an interdimensional conflict... something the locals are not likely to be happy with (and are likely to give up the Summoner for just punishment to avoid it).

Most with the means of doing this will simply take the easier route of using their own Summon Animals circle to replenish their cattle stocks.

[mirithol]

I doubt Kevin in his wildest dreams ever expected when he penned this spell it would create discussions about cattle rustling, the economics of ranching, and the ethics of stealing cows vs. freeing Daisy from being enslaved for slaughter by evil ranchers. One of the great things about RPGs.

One question: Does a cow have a true name?

[Zamion138]

I doubt Kevin in his wildest dreams ever expected when he penned this spell it would create discussions about cattle rustling, the economics of ranching, and the ethics of stealing cows vs. freeing Daisy from being enslaved for slaughter by evil ranchers. One of the great things about RPGs.

One question: Does a cow have a true name?

Id say yes if its like one of those 4h calf hand raised cows. Gets a name almost for sure.......summon betsy every morning in the dungeon for fresh milk.

[glitterboy2098]

I doubt Kevin in his wildest dreams ever expected when he penned this spell it would create discussions about cattle rustling, the economics of ranching, and the ethics of stealing cows vs. freeing Daisy from being enslaved for slaughter by evil ranchers. One of the great things about RPGs.

One question: Does a cow have a true name?

Sure. That over there is 'Moo', that one over there is 'Moo'. Slight variations in pronunciation. Listen. moo. mooo. Mmooo.

[Library Ogre]

I doubt Kevin in his wildest dreams ever expected when he penned this spell it would create discussions about cattle rustling, the economics of ranching, and the ethics of stealing cows vs. freeing Daisy from being enslaved for slaughter by evil ranchers. One of the great things about RPGs.

One question: Does a cow have a true name?

Sure. That over there is 'Moo', that one over there is 'Moo'. Slight variations in pronunciation. Listen. moo. mooo. Mmooo.

"Yes. Yes. Moo is used to being beast of burden to other people's needs. Very sad life. Probably have... very sad death. But... at least there is Symmetry."

"But only Moo have no one to talk to. No one manages poor Moo, you see. So Moo talks to dirt. Or to walls, or talks to ceilings. But dirt is closer. Dirt is used to everyone walking on it. Just like Moo. But we have come to like it. It is our role. It is our destiny in the universe. So, you see, sometimes dirt has insects in it. And Moo likes insects. Not so good for conversation, but much protein for diet. Hmmm, huh, huh, very good! - Moo fix now. Come, this way."

[Library Ogre]

More seriously, a slaughterhouse could also be of great use to a Summoner in another way... huge amounts of PPE. Summon, slaughter & refill, summon some more.

[Zamion138]

I doubt Kevin in his wildest dreams ever expected when he penned this spell it would create discussions about cattle rustling, the economics of ranching, and the ethics of stealing cows vs. freeing Daisy from being enslaved for slaughter by evil ranchers. One of the great things about RPGs.

One question: Does a cow have a true name?

Sure. That over there is 'Moo', that one over there is 'Moo'. Slight variations in pronunciation. Listen. moo. mooo. Mmooo.

"Yes. Yes. Moo is used to being beast of burden to other people's needs. Very sad life. Probably have... very sad death. But... at least there is Symmetry."

"But only Moo have no one to talk to. No one manages poor Moo, you see. So Moo talks to dirt. Or to walls, or talks to ceilings. But dirt is closer. Dirt is used to everyone walking on it. Just like Moo. But we have come to like it. It is our role. It is our destiny in the universe. So, you see, sometimes dirt has insects in it. And Moo likes insects. Not so good for conversation, but much protein for diet. Hmmm, huh, huh, very good! - Moo fix now. Come, this way."

Please dont blow up my space station nor move it back in time, the shadows are our friends........they got mark twain on their side!

[Axelmania]

Summoners generally don't need PPE except for when they build new circles, since the amount needed to use an active circle is pretty small.

Kev may not have thought of the economic problem with Summoners, or maybe he didn't discuss it so we could have the fun of discovering it for ourselves.

Economy would be less harmed in areas where summoners are persecuted. Even in communities where they accept other spellcasters, the 'Mad Mage' has a pretty rough reputation, even compared to wizards who learn a blood-drinking ritual at first level and Diabolists who learn how to carve wards out of god bones.

I guess the issue is, if you own a lot of land for cattle to graze on, is it cheaper for them to raise themselves out there, or for you to spend 5 or 10 PPE to use an active circle to summon a cow?

I guess one issue though is quality. Sure, the circle might summon a cow, but you can't exactly designate the quality. It might be a baby cow (not much meat) or a sickly cow. Heck, you might even summon a cow who was bit by a Death Demon and is in the final stages of becoming a Greater Demon if you don't kill and eat them right away, and what could be the side effects of doing so?

Or maybe the cow from another dimension has a unique kind of disease (presumably viruses/bacteria/parasites get to come along for the ride when a living being is summoned, otherwise humans who get summoned are going to have some problems in their gut from a lack of flora, need to eat some probiotic yogurt!) which spreads to the rest of your herd, or maybe it has a prion disease that you have no defense against.

It might be more useful, rather than eat the meat yourself, to trade it to someone else. Just do it covertly so you don't develope a reputation. Or maybe use the summoned potentially-sick animal to pay someone you hate. Think the pigs in the recent season of walking dead between The Kingdom and Negan's people.

You might even summon a cow who was turned into a familiar by a mage and starts breathing fire all over the place. TTGD allows 'shared memories' which might plausibly allow familiars the same spellcasting knowledge too!

The main problem with being a classic rancher is occasionally, Summoners will steal your cattle. Like cattle thieves it might just be ignored as acceptable losses.

There really should be some kind of Diabolist-brand you can get for cattle which prevents an animal from being summoned though, to defend herds.

I know there's some kind of anti-teleportation circle in Bletherad but I can't remember how big they can get. One around an entire pasture could be useful to prevent Summoner-rustling.

[Razorwing]

I would just like to point out one last time, the Summon Animals Circle doesn't include the symbol to channel Dimensional Forces... which means that the animals come from somewhere on the world the circle is on.

Yes, the Circle description does say that paying 100 PPE Dimensionally pops an animal to the circle... but that does not mean that it comes from another dimension. What it means is that space was warped to bring the animal there... sort of like a super teleportation.

Look at every Circle that summons known extra-dimensional beings, from angels to demons to elementals and everything in between... they all have the symbol for dimensional forces within their designs. No look at the Circles for animals (including insects, serpents, even pawns)... no such symbol within the design. This means that with these circles, whatever is summoned is not coming from another dimension.

Dimensional portals can and are used to travel great distances upon a single world. Erin Tarn's infamous disappearance from Rifts Earth (to Wormwood) was intended to be a mere jump across the vampire infested deserts of Mexico to what would have been the heart of the Vampire Kingdoms... it wasn't meant to take her to another world.

To put it perspective, the 60 PPE cost would be like summoning the animal from the local area... within the normal range of a teleport spell (probably within a 10 to 100 mile radius of the circle). The 100 PPE cost would increase that range to world wide... and uses a dimensional portal (wormhole if you will) to bring that creature back to the circle. Without the Dimensional forces symbol in the circle, one can't actually summon something from another world or dimension, regardless of which level of power is being used.

Now, I am sure that some of you are going to say... why not just add the symbol and be able to summon across dimensions. Easy, Peasy, right? Wrong. Circles, like spells, can't just be changed at the casters whim... they are complex patterns that have been passed down because they are known to work. While it is possible to redesign a circle to summon animals from another dimension, it will take time, money and research to do. This isn't like wards that are designed to be mixed and matched on the fly... but time honored traditions that can literally blow up in one's face if altered or even performed incorrectly. There is a reason why there are so few circles compared to incantations... they are much harder to design and make work properly than a mere spell... especially when dealing with powerful forces that even the Summoner doesn't completely understand.

Think of the difference between the two as the difference between a transporter (Star Trek) and a Star Gate (SG1). The 60 PPE version transports the animal from the local area only... while the 100 PPE version "gates" the animal in from anywhere in the world. The difference is only range... not worlds or dimensions.

[Axelmania]

That's a good find re the symbol on the upper-right of page 130 being absent in the left quadrant of the SA circle on page 146.

The DF cross with circles on the ends symbol is certainly present in the left quadrant of Angels/Lesser/Greater/Elementals/Gargoyles/Ghosts/Spirits/Undead (it is present in Jinn but strangely in the RIGHT quadrant)

The DF cross is absent for Animal, Elemental Forces, Faerie Folk, Insects, Pawn and Serpents.

The problem with this argument though, is that circles all have multiple incarnations. The illustrations provided are NOT set in stone. They can be modified. Like if you do a "sealed" version of the circle, for example, this would modify the image.

Elemental Forces appears to be fixed, but all the others with absent DF cross illustrations have variant ranges. The ones where we do see the cross illustrated only have 1 range "Range: Dimensional portal" so that is the only version we can see.

The ones where we don't see it (except EF) all say "Range: 20 mile (32 km) radius or dimensional portal". Be it Animal, Faerie, Insects or Serpents, it is the same thing.

What this means is that while we see the 20-mile version in the illustration, it would make sense to add in the DF cross if you are doing a version of the circle which uses a dimensional portal instead of a 20 mile radius.

In the case of Animals this increases the cost from 60 PPE to 100 PPE. Faeries are fixed at 100 PPE either way and Insects are fixed at 50 PPE either way. Serpents appears to be fixed whether radius/portal and the cost varies only on the type of serpent you summon.

The cross for dimensional forces would be needed to do a dimensional portal regardless of whether the portal led to another dimension or a location on the same planet.

If I follow your argument for animals then the same logic would have to apply in restricting the summoning if Faeries/Kukulkan and I don't think it does.

The illustrates are guidelines to the normal version of the circle. The absence of the DF cross isn't set in stone, just as the absence of the SEALED version isn't set in stone by the illustration.

So yeah, in contrast to your closing thought, they CAN be changed. ANY circle can be sealed, so there's no reason to think you wouldn't just add the DF cross for the circle variant which goes beyond the 20 mile radius.

Otherwise what would you expect them to do, draw 2 versions of each of those circles? Space considerations.

[Razorwing]

Circles are not diabolism where you can mix and match the various symbols and components to create whatever effect you desire.

Circles require precise components and symbol to properly channel the mystic forces one is calling upon... thus it is unlikely that there will be dozens of versions of a circle... one would have been created and passed on because people know it works. Changing the symbols on a circle can have disastrous consequences... for in changing the symbols one also has to consider the components needed to create the circle and the power words needed to activate it. If you do one without considering the changes doing so will have on the others... well... let's just say that there are good reasons it takes a lot of time and effort to study a new circle.

Remember, Modern Summoning is a recreated magical art... recreated after the Millennium of Purification. This means that the known circles were experiments that actually worked as intended. When experimenting with magical forces, creating a dozen or more variations to do the job seems very... redundant. When one has a proven circle to summon a given type of creature... why create variations of that circle? It is very dangerous to do so... as explained above. One doesn't mess with proven magic... risks of doing so can be lethal (not just to the summoner, but also to anyone that encounters what he summoned).

[Razorwing]

The point I am trying to make is that all magic, whether it is invocations, circles or even diabolism... needs to be precise and exact... there is no margin for error because of the volatile nature of the energy being used. One mispronounced word, one incorrectly aligned symbol, one incorrect component... and the results can be disastrous. If one is lucky, then the mistake will be survivable... if one is unlucky... well... let's just hope wherever the would be magic user ends up is a more forgiving place than the one he left (though not likely).

This is why most people who study magic do so as a form of apprenticeship or in a formal magic college... where they can learn from those who have studied these magics. They will require exacting precision from apprentices and students because they know exactly what even a simple mistake can cost. They would discourage the innovation and alteration of known formulas because the results of such tampering can be extremely dangerous... especially for someone who is just starting their magical studies (hell... it is still dangerous for even those who have spent decades studying magic).

Even with diabolism, the runes, symbols and wards created need to be precise and accurate... to ensure that the magic flows properly. They can't just create new symbols, runes or wards (mixing the various known symbols, runes and wards isn't creating new ones). The same is true with circles. There aren't a dozen or more ways to draw a summoning circle for a given creature... simply because 1) it isn't needed and 2) it is dangerous to try to alter a circle known to work. Altering the symbols in a circle can lead to disastrous results if one isn't extremely careful (and even if they are). The known circles have been passed down from Master to Apprentice, Mentor to Student for thousands of years... each time with the student learning the exact same way to produce it as their mentor or master did.

While it may be possible for a character to eventually learn to create a Summon Animal circle that contains the Dimensional Energy symbol to allow him to summon animals from other dimensions/worlds... it will not be something they know how to do at the beginning of their careers. It will take years (decades) of study, practice and even a little guess work for them to figure out how to recreate the Circle they were taught to accomplish the effect they desire. Even if he does manage to do so, he won't teach it to others... simply because keeping it a secret gives him a power that other Summoners are not likely to have. Since the basic Circles are so well known to Summoners, passing on that version of the Circle doesn't cost the Summoner any power since his apprentice could learn it from any other mentor. This is also why Circles of Power are never taught during an apprenticeship (to preserve the power one gained through hard work, study, practice and luck).

Creating new spells and circles (or new symbols, runes and such) requires years or decades of work... and are not likely to be passed down to an apprentice. Even variations of existing spells and circles are unlikely to be made without a good reason (perhaps a plague made a vital species of animal extinct on a world and thus to bring it back a Summoner needed to create a variation of the Circle to summon such an animal from another world/dimension).

As for the costs between insects and serpents compared to the cost for animals... most animals are far larger than mere insects or mortal snakes... while the more magical serpents that can be summoned require more energy to summon them. As for why there is no dimensional symbol in their circles is because, like animals, many such creatures exist in the world without the need to bring them in from other dimensions. Fair Folk and the more magical serpents find the Palladium world attractive enough to have permanent populations... something that is unlikely to happen with demons, deevils, angels, spirits or elementals, hence the need for the dimensional symbol in their summoning circles.

It emphasize once more... variations of spells, circles and such are the result of years of study and practice... not something that is going to be taught to a beginner. It is easy to say that Palladium merely drew one of each circle rather than every variation possible to save space... but it is also possible that they only drew the ones in the book because those are the ones taught to Summoners (and what the Power Circles they may find will look like). Since the book doesn't specify that there are variations to these circles, we can't assume there are... we must assume that the known circles are the culmination of thousands of years of study and experimentation... and that this is what characters will know (rather than some theoretical variation that contains different symbols).

[Library Ogre]

Circles are not diabolism where you can mix and match the various symbols and components to create whatever effect you desire.

Circles require precise components and symbol to properly channel the mystic forces one is calling upon... thus it is unlikely that there will be dozens of versions of a circle... one would have been created and passed on because people know it works. Changing the symbols on a circle can have disastrous consequences... for in changing the symbols one also has to consider the components needed to create the circle and the power words needed to activate it. If you do one without considering the changes doing so will have on the others... well... let's just say that there are good reasons it takes a lot of time and effort to study a new circle.

Remember, Modern Summoning is a recreated magical art... recreated after the Millennium of Purification. This means that the known circles were experiments that actually worked as intended. When experimenting with magical forces, creating a dozen or more variations to do the job seems very... redundant. When one has a proven circle to summon a given type of creature... why create variations of that circle? It is very dangerous to do so... as explained above. One doesn't mess with proven magic... risks of doing so can be lethal (not just to the summoner, but also to anyone that encounters what he summoned).

Eh, I don't see why it can't be. After all, there's lots of possible equivalences in the magical symbology, and some circles don't care. You can draw your "protection from Angels" circle in anything from urine to the blood of martyrs to unclean faiths, and it's all cool. What if you replaced the salt crystals (earth) with an onyx (also earth)? What if you're out of Sapphire but REALLY need to summon elemental forces? Can you substitute diamond? Can you use a pearl instead of an emerald? If you really need to show strength, but don't have anything iron, can you just use a lot of brown?

Diabolism is poetry... the words you put together create an effect. Put them together wrong, and you still create an effect. The language used has a syntax, but it's a flexible one. Spellcasting is singing a song... it's hard to alter a song on the fly and have it be anything but humorous, especially a song that is complex and going to affect people. Circle magic is staging a play. You create the set and say the words and ... ahem... bring the audience into your world. If you don't have kilts, but want to stage MacBeth, you can still tell the story with the leftover costumes from Shogun... but there's going to be an impact to any changes you make.

[Axelmania]

Circles are not diabolism where you can mix and match the various symbols and components to create whatever effect you desire.

They are to some degree when we are told they have different versions.

Circles require precise components and symbol to properly channel the mystic forces one is calling upon... thus it is unlikely that there will be dozens of versions of a circle... one would have been created and passed on because people know it works.

Dozens means at least 24.

Dimensional/Non-dimensional is 2 variations.

If you introduced the sealed/un-sealed variable that is still only 4 variations.

Aren't you embellishing a bit?

The simple fact is you are not shown an illustration of every version of the circle, because we know that unsealed/sealed looks different. So it would make sense for worldly/inter-dimensional to also look different.

While it may be possible for a character to eventually learn to create a Summon Animal circle that contains the Dimensional Energy symbol to allow him to summon animals from other dimensions/worlds... it will not be something they know how to do at the beginning of their careers.

Summoners start knowing ALL protection/summoning circles, so I think you're wrong about that.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I think the real takeaway from this debate is we need a Broadway musical of MacBeth featering Samurai in feudal japan.

[Library Ogre]

I think the real takeaway from this debate is we need a Broadway musical of MacBeth featering Samurai in feudal japan.

When I was in High School, the school put on a non-musical version of Shogun MacBeth.

[Axelmania]

If I was a summoner, I would create a "Summon Whale" circle on a ramp leading up to my castle so that the whale would roll down the ramp and crush my enemies.

[Library Ogre]

If I was a summoner, I would create a "Summon Whale" circle on a ramp leading up to my castle so that the whale would roll down the ramp and crush my enemies.

Get enough whale blood, and you can do it with Summon Animals... draw the circle in whale blood, sacrifice a mouse, and BOOM, whale-o-coaster.

[kiralon]

If I was a summoner, I would create a "Summon Whale" circle on a ramp leading up to my castle so that the whale would roll down the ramp and crush my enemies.

That reminds me of

http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0208.html

[Axelmania]

Yeah I meant Summon Animals, I figure since the circle differs based on the blood you use, I'd assign a custom name based on that component.

[mirithol]

Now summoning whales could be very lucrative versus whaling. Lots of meat and blubber. Probably need a big pit and a system to get rid of the undesirable parts. Smelly business.

What if the whale ingested a dead sea serpent? Would that taint the whale's blood giving a 5% or 10% chance of summoning a supremely pissed-off serpent rather than an over-sized mammal unable to support itself out of water?

Perhaps the Western Empire nobility provide a Festival of Serpents where a sea serpent circle is created in a gladiatorial arena, and to the roar of the crowds serpents are summoned into a broad, but shallow pool (instead of sand on the arena floor) and pitted against hapless slaves, criminals, political enemies, fame seekers, or real gladiators? Some serpents may be small and some large - perhaps gigantic. Of course, the circle would likely have to be out of the water on a central dais maybe, the combatants could be on pillars or raised features, and the summoner would need a means of escape. Quite a spectacle. This would have the added benefit of reducing the serpent population and encouraging trade.

[Axelmania]

Technically the summoning circle only summons the animal, not any clothing they're wearing or anything in their stomach or bowels, which could make for easier cleaning of the meat since you would have less to drain.

[Library Ogre]

Technically the summoning circle only summons the animal, not any clothing they're wearing or anything in their stomach or bowels, which could make for easier cleaning of the meat since you would have less to drain.

I find the theory that they're going to all come poopless rather suspect.

[Axelmania]

I guess it's a matter of how literally you take the text, or how flexible you are when bringing things along for free even though the circle doesn't mention they're brought.

Being able to bring a saddle/bridle instead of a naked horse, for example, seems like an extra benefit worth specifying.

Or horse shoes for that matter... I like the gruesome idea of summoning a formerly-shod horse but since the circle only brings the horse, it leaves them behind and it comes with holes in their hooves where the nails were...

I guess it's a question of... when you consume food, when does it cease to be itself and become part of you? Personally I don't think that should count until it is absorbed by the intestines... meaning any waste products shouldn't get to come along. When you are summoned, you vanish into thing air... but THAT is left behind... for humorous results.

Also opens an interesting diet industry for nobles. Eat whatever you like, then have your local Circle Master summon you into an adjacent room, and you can control your weight by purging without the stress of vomiting/exercising ... just send a serf to go clean up whatever room you just got teleported out of.

I could see a GM ruling that anything inside you gets to come along for the ride for free. Certainly makes for less ick for pregnant creatures brought someplace via a summoning circle (although perhaps this could be made optional to the Summoner, opening up another industrial applicable for Circle Masters)

In that case though, you could also set up a smuggling industry using these circles. I don't think there is any summoning circles for inanimate objects, but if something being inside a living creature allows it to be brought along, I could see people force-feeding their cattle a sack full of gold and then having the summoner summon the cow as a means of smuggling gold into a kingdom without the risk of intercept. Also a way you could smuggle magical scrolls.

[Library Ogre]

I think it is far more reasonable that you summon things with what they happen to be carrying at the time. You summon a horse, you're frequently going to get a shod horse, and occasionally get one that's got its tack on. Summon Pawn doesn't summon people naked... it's far more likely that "Will not summon their equipment with them" would be mentioned, especially given the notes about being attacked by your pawn.

[Whiskeyjack]

So if the horse comes shod, with a saddle, is there also a chance it's coming with a rider? Or does the poor sap suddenly hit the dirt when his horse disappears from under him?

[Library Ogre]

So if the horse comes shod, with a saddle, is there also a chance it's coming with a rider? Or does the poor sap suddenly hit the dirt when his horse disappears from under him?

I'd say no to the rider.