Could the Republicans Beat ARCHIE Three

[HWalsh]

Continued from here: http://palladium-megaverse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=151524&p=2930984#p2930984

This thread asks the question: Could the Republicans Beat ARCHIE Three?

[kaid]

I think the better question is could they beat him without destroying the factories or rendering them useless. I think they probably could do it but it would wind up at best being a phyrric victory.

[Killer Cyborg]

Apparently they cannot.

[Fell]

Could? Should!

They should be able to....rule the CS, vanquish ARCHIE and put those Spoogies to bed!

Shrug....maybe.

[HWalsh]

Apparently they cannot.

I dunno. I think, in this case, that they could do it without too unrealistic of Deus Ex Machina. For example, we know they can hack ARCHIE and put him into a work cycle which cuts him off from what is going on. We see that in the fiction where Hagan tries to call out to ARCHIE and is ignored with ARCHIE being unable to remember that or respond to Hagan's query.

It's not inconceivable that this method may disable the defenses around ARCHIE and allow a coordinated strike if their heavy troops to get in and disconnect ARCHIE.

We also know that ARCHIE truly cares for Hagan and, as such, they could use Hagan as leverage somehow. Wait until Hagan is out of the complex, jump him with a LOT of their soldiers (remember ARCHIE doesn't know how well equipped the Republicans are) and take him hostage. Prompting ARCHIE to mobilize everything he has and leaving himself vulnerable, a mistake due to his emotions.

This is very viable because we know Hagan has visited the sites the Republicans were building Armor at. If they have any Psychics they could grab Hagan and mind link him too, which would, if they were quick, give them.a chance to locate and map where ARCHIE's physical "body" actually is.

So I mean, there are possibilities.

[Killer Cyborg]

Apparently they cannot.

I dunno. I think, in this case, that they could do it without too unrealistic of Deus Ex Machina. For example, we know they can hack ARCHIE and put him into a work cycle which cuts him off from what is going on. We see that in the fiction where Hagan tries to call out to ARCHIE and is ignored with ARCHIE being unable to remember that or respond to Hagan's query.

It's not inconceivable that this method may disable the defenses around ARCHIE and allow a coordinated strike if their heavy troops to get in and disconnect ARCHIE.

We also know that ARCHIE truly cares for Hagan and, as such, they could use Hagan as leverage somehow. Wait until Hagan is out of the complex, jump him with a LOT of their soldiers (remember ARCHIE doesn't know how well equipped the Republicans are) and take him hostage. Prompting ARCHIE to mobilize everything he has and leaving himself vulnerable, a mistake due to his emotions.

This is very viable because we know Hagan has visited the sites the Republicans were building Armor at. If they have any Psychics they could grab Hagan and mind link him too, which would, if they were quick, give them.a chance to locate and map where ARCHIE's physical "body" actually is.

So I mean, there are possibilities.

Apparently, there are not.

[eliakon]

Apparently they cannot.

I dunno. I think, in this case, that they could do it without too unrealistic of Deus Ex Machina. For example, we know they can hack ARCHIE and put him into a work cycle which cuts him off from what is going on. We see that in the fiction where Hagan tries to call out to ARCHIE and is ignored with ARCHIE being unable to remember that or respond to Hagan's query.

It's not inconceivable that this method may disable the defenses around ARCHIE and allow a coordinated strike if their heavy troops to get in and disconnect ARCHIE.

We also know that ARCHIE truly cares for Hagan and, as such, they could use Hagan as leverage somehow. Wait until Hagan is out of the complex, jump him with a LOT of their soldiers (remember ARCHIE doesn't know how well equipped the Republicans are) and take him hostage. Prompting ARCHIE to mobilize everything he has and leaving himself vulnerable, a mistake due to his emotions.

This is very viable because we know Hagan has visited the sites the Republicans were building Armor at. If they have any Psychics they could grab Hagan and mind link him too, which would, if they were quick, give them.a chance to locate and map where ARCHIE's physical "body" actually is.

So I mean, there are possibilities.

Apparently, there are not.

Wouldn't it be more correct to say that they Have not done so rather than can not do so.
Since the latter implies that we canonically know that it is impossible. Which we do not, we just know that so far it has not happened, not that it can not happen in the future.

[HWalsh]

Apparently they cannot.

I dunno. I think, in this case, that they could do it without too unrealistic of Deus Ex Machina. For example, we know they can hack ARCHIE and put him into a work cycle which cuts him off from what is going on. We see that in the fiction where Hagan tries to call out to ARCHIE and is ignored with ARCHIE being unable to remember that or respond to Hagan's query.

It's not inconceivable that this method may disable the defenses around ARCHIE and allow a coordinated strike if their heavy troops to get in and disconnect ARCHIE.

We also know that ARCHIE truly cares for Hagan and, as such, they could use Hagan as leverage somehow. Wait until Hagan is out of the complex, jump him with a LOT of their soldiers (remember ARCHIE doesn't know how well equipped the Republicans are) and take him hostage. Prompting ARCHIE to mobilize everything he has and leaving himself vulnerable, a mistake due to his emotions.

This is very viable because we know Hagan has visited the sites the Republicans were building Armor at. If they have any Psychics they could grab Hagan and mind link him too, which would, if they were quick, give them.a chance to locate and map where ARCHIE's physical "body" actually is.

So I mean, there are possibilities.

Apparently, there are not.

I disagree KC.

I mean, yes, it requires them doing something that they haven't so far done, not something that is completely and totally impossible.

That is like saying, "Tolkeen can't possibly have defended against the CS nuke attack because in order to do so they had to do something that had been, prior to them publishing it, not been possible."

I'm talking in hypothetical broad strokes.

So, if someone had told you, before SoT, "They could stop a massive nuke attack with some never before seen spell."

Would you have said it wasn't possible? If so then... Well... You'd be wrong.

In this case it is, "They might be able to extend what they have already shown us they can do to create a vulnerability that we did not know was there."

I don't think that is terribly impossible.

Just like, "Some disaffected Prosek guard is bribed and smuggles in a fusion block that he uses to kill Karl Prosek and Joseph Prosek II." It is highly unlikely but not completely impossible.

[Pepsi Jedi]

But that circles back around to.. Tolkeen could NOT have defended against the CS nuke attack.. until the writers employed Deus Ex Machina. (Almost literally, but certinly in the intent of the usage of the term).

I'm not throwing rocks. There was plenty of that on both sides during the Tolkeen thing. CS and tolkeen, but the suddenly "Nuke rift thing" That no other magical society in the megaverse has, even ones that have faster than light travel (Three Galaxies) Don't have this thing, and Tolkeen pulled it out of their butts in secret during a 10 year military build up, and it worked effortlessly and totally against a nuclear bombardment?

That -was- Deus Ex Machina. It kept the war from lasting the 5 minutes it'd take for the CS to nuke Tolkeen. Other wise, any time Tolkeen did more than die... people would go "Well why didn't the CS just nuke them?????" Because.. they 'could have'. So the Nuke Rift thing was put in as the hand of god to prevent that from happening in the story.

For Archie, vs the Republicans (Who, like many in Rifts earth, talk a big game but when you look at the stats vs the numbers aren't that dangerous), but when you talk about Archie vs the republicans, the only way the Republicans win, is if their insane plans go off with out a hitch and the other side suddenly goes fully mentally deficient.

The Republicans don't have the numbers to take Archie by force.

They don't know where the 'bread box' is. They might get in and blow up the big fake brain, but that wouldn't stop archie. It'd just let him know he needs to shore up his defenses.

They can sorta-kinda enhance his down periods to exploit a back door, but even now, that's been noticed. He (archie) Can take precautions to stop it. Hagan surely can. If nothing else they can flat out take the resources out of the automated factories up untill Archie wants to use them then use his bots to move them back in.

If you cloak it in "HIGHLY UNLIKELY" then.. yes.. such a thing is "HIGHLY UNLIKELY" but not technically "impossible"

It'd just be close enough to impossible that the "highly Unlikely" Isn't something you factor for.

It's not out the realm of possibility in all of the Megaverse. It's just so 'highly unlikely' that you don't worry about it happening. Sort of like you COULD get hit by a falling meteorite any time you walk out of your house, but you don't go out holding a shield above your head every time you step out your front door. It COULD happen. It might kill you if it did, but it's soooo low on the probabiltiy list that you live with out fear of it.

Sort of like the thing with Prosek. You'd need.

The guard, that is close enough to Prosek.
The guard that's so disenfranchised that he would consider it.
The guard that would risk it, kknowing at the very BEST it would mean certain death.
The bomb itself.
And some ability to take out all the Psi-bat troops between where ever you put the bomb on, and head for Prosek. As a fourth of the population is psionic and 6th sense is a thing.
you'd need other troops that scan those getting close to Prosek to either be in on it (and facing certain death for failing their duty) And or also bought out, but.. facing certain death for failing their duty when it goes off.
Etc etc etc etc on down the line. You'd need 10,000 things to line up juuust right. When any 1 of the 10,000 things might be 1 in a million, but you need ten thousand, one in a millions, all in a row.

COULD it happen? COULD the universe throw 10,000, one million sided dies, and all 10,000 of them, come up 1's all at the same time? Sure. It's POSSIBLE. It COULD happen. But it's just so improbable that it's not GOING to happen. In theory, if you had an infinite number of monkeys at an infinite number of keyboards eventually through random key bashing they would recreate every work of Shakespeare.. but.....

Now, the Republicans taking out Archie isn't 10,000, million to one shots but it's a good number of them. Same with taking out a Prosek. You might not need literally 10,000 million to one shots all in a row, but you'd need.. 10... 20 of them. and getting 20, million sided dies to all come up natural 1's (or natural millions, what ever) at the same time... yikes.

[HWalsh]

Now, the Republicans taking out Archie isn't 10,000, million to one shots but it's a good number of them. Same with taking out a Prosek. You might not need literally 10,000 million to one shots all in a row, but you'd need.. 10... 20 of them. and getting 20, million sided dies to all come up natural 1's (or natural millions, what ever) at the same time... yikes.

Not really.

Here is a way to do it that wouldn't need anywhere near that much.

1. Observe Hagan entering the factories they have been using.

Why it's not unreasonable. These are expert spies.

2. Wait until he's sighted again then grab him.

Why it's not unreasonable. Hagan says in the fiction what he's bringing with him to check the factories. 24 Republican PAs could easily grab him.

3. Get information out of Hagan.

Why it's not unreasonable. Hagan's a coward and the Reps are spies. Interrogation isn't that hard. The only risk is not being able to break Hagan fast enough.

4.Put ARCHIE Three into a shut down cycle.

We KNOW the Republicans can do this.

5. Hit ARCHIE with EVERYTHING while he's in shut down going after the breadbox that they have the location from Hagan.

Without being able to direct his robots there won't be reinforcrments. ARCHIE's main facility was NEVER designed to repel THOUSANDS of Glitterboys.

[Pepsi Jedi]

1.a) Why would Hagan enter the factories in ways that could be observed? Wouldn't it be smarter to enter the factories secretly?
1.b) Why would Hagan go personally to factories when he could send bots and not risk himself?

2.a) Why would he go multiple times in a way that's easily observed?
2.b) Why would he not send bots before hand to secure the route and make sure... he's not observed coming and going? If the Republicans are close enough to see him, they're close enough for bots to find them peekin'

3.a) Ehh you're assuming that the Republicans could grab Hagan and Archie not know. If it looks like Hagan's being captured and taken, Archie might.... end that threat before allowing it to happen. Hagan is for sure going to have some Archie bots with him.

3.b) It's been a while, but IS Hagan a coward? he went out and put boot to ass during the Mechinoids thing. Had his own power armor and robot to do it. he could have sat back but didn't. he got involved. So he's combat tested and such now too.

4) Under very specific circumstances they can influence a low observation cycle. It's not something they can do on command if memory serves. (It's been a few years since I've read it, but pretty sure they have to take advantage of Archie basically "Already being alseep'. They can't just hit a button and knock him out when ever they want.

5.a) Even if they did try and infiltrate archie while in a sleep cycle, the defenses are still up. ALL Of Archie and ALL the bots don't suddenly stop during these cycles. They'd have to fight their way in.

Even then. (Again I could be wrong but I'm fairly certain) Hagan doesn't know about the breadbox. Much less where it is to be able TO tell the Republicans where it is.

5.b) They don't have 'THOUSANDS" of glitter boys to pour out at him do they? and
5.c) His facility survived the coming of rifts and previous attempts by the Republicans to take him when they had bigger forces.. so.. yeah it was designed to withstand them.

[ShadowLogan]

The Republicans have a back door into Archie-3, but it appears to be of limited use otherwise they could have used it take over Archie by now.

Could? Should!

They should be able to....rule the CS, vanquish ARCHIE and put those Spoogies to bed!

Shrug....maybe.

They aren't going to put those Spoogies to bed, nor is the CS or Archie. Canonically the Spoogies are said to be able to take out the Xiticix problem in a short amount of time, yet the CS (along with Archie, who can take on the CS and win) doesn't have that capability.

[Glistam]

The Republicans were playing a dangerous game, but once Hagan and A.R.C.H.I.E. began to suspect something was up, it was only a matter of time before what's been written about the fate of The Republicans came to pass. Remember, these are the same two beings who managed to not only bring the Mechanoids to Rifts Earth but also secretly work together to engineer their destruction while at the same time befriending them and reverse-engineering their tech. Surviving The Republicans (who were themselves split - their two leaders each had totally different visions for how to deal with the A.R.C.H.I.E. situation) would be child's play compared to what they went through with the Mechanoids.

[Killer Cyborg]

Apparently they cannot.

I dunno. I think, in this case, that they could do it without too unrealistic of Deus Ex Machina. For example, we know they can hack ARCHIE and put him into a work cycle which cuts him off from what is going on. We see that in the fiction where Hagan tries to call out to ARCHIE and is ignored with ARCHIE being unable to remember that or respond to Hagan's query.

It's not inconceivable that this method may disable the defenses around ARCHIE and allow a coordinated strike if their heavy troops to get in and disconnect ARCHIE.

We also know that ARCHIE truly cares for Hagan and, as such, they could use Hagan as leverage somehow. Wait until Hagan is out of the complex, jump him with a LOT of their soldiers (remember ARCHIE doesn't know how well equipped the Republicans are) and take him hostage. Prompting ARCHIE to mobilize everything he has and leaving himself vulnerable, a mistake due to his emotions.

This is very viable because we know Hagan has visited the sites the Republicans were building Armor at. If they have any Psychics they could grab Hagan and mind link him too, which would, if they were quick, give them.a chance to locate and map where ARCHIE's physical "body" actually is.

So I mean, there are possibilities.

Apparently, there are not.

I disagree KC.

Apparently you do.

[kaid]

Apparently they cannot.

They are trying to keep the factories intact and use them. They have clearly shown they can infiltrate these factories for long periods of time. Given their tech it seems likely that they would be capable of sabatoge or destruction of those facilities if they chose to given how clearly long periods of time they can loiter.

They want archie dead but they want to control the factories and it is unlikely that they could accomplish this without ruining what they desire.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

Notice no one included the shemarrians into this.

[kaid]

Notice no one included the shemarrians into this.

Well one problem is at lest currently archie suspects he has a problem but he doesn't know for sure and given the blind spots the republicans can currently activate in at least his manufacturing centers giving them time to not just go in and out but go in and actually produce power armor/vehicles/weapons and then pick up the fruits of their labors undetected means the republicans can enter his major facilities for days or potentially weeks at a time without him knowing it.

The republicans if they wanted to simply destroy archie the best place to start is gut his manufacturing centers. That would both cut down on the amount of potential robots he has defending himself but also prevent him from making more or repairing what he has. Without his repair bases eventually archie dwindles down threat wise to where if the forces were patient he would be pretty manageable to assault.

But this only works if you are willing to wreck everything the republicans value in those bases.

I think some of this will be made more clear in the book they are talking about the haunted tech as it sounds like the republicans made a big push to reclaim their sleeping troops in some form or another and equipment.

[Axelmania]

Pepsi even without the new Sedition spells wouldn't something like casting Energy Barriers in the paths of missile volleys to detonate them out of range of the city have done the job? Just have patrollers on hoverboards cast them once the missiles get within 60 feet, or further since you're on a nexus, so maybe 180 feet.

Timing them and properly placing them could require some creative rolling of initiative and strike, so the Sedition spells probably improved the odds.

[dragonfett]

Pepsi even without the new Sedition spells wouldn't something like casting Energy Barriers in the paths of missile volleys to detonate them out of range of the city have done the job? Just have patrollers on hoverboards cast them once the missiles get within 60 feet, or further since you're on a nexus, so maybe 180 feet.

Timing them and properly placing them could require some creative rolling of initiative and strike, so the Sedition spells probably improved the odds.

The slowest of the missiles (mini-missiles, excluding Smoke Mini-Missiles) have an air speed of 500 mph, or 733 feet per second. The average caster will have 4 to 5 actions available for spell casting. In order to cast Energy Field before the missiles passes the mage, they have to start their casting when the missiles are more than 2200 feet away from them!!! They also have to correctly place the Energy Field so that it actually blocks the path of the missile (8' globe vs. an object that looks the size of a pinhead more than 2200 feet way is no easy feat).

For the LRM's, the same mages would have to start casting their spells as soon as Glitter Boys are able to fire on the missiles at 11,000' (the bare minimum distance they need is 10,127', just shy of two miles).

[taalismn]

If I remember correctly, the Republicans can hack one of ARCHIE-3's satellite factories, but I doubt they could take down the defenses of the main complex...A3's done renovating, and more than likely has 'dumb' backups in the form of semi-autonomous security 'bots protecting his main works. And if he didn't before, he almost certainly is looking at upgrading his defenses now.
Plus he's got character shielding nearly as good as the CS.
So I'd say no to a Republican takeover of ARCHIE-3; they're just too far out of date with regards to his overall true capabilities.

[HWalsh]

If I remember correctly, the Republicans can hack one of ARCHIE-3's satellite factories, but I doubt they could take down the defenses of the main complex...A3's done renovating, and more than likely has 'dumb' backups in the form of semi-autonomous security 'bots protecting his main works. And if he didn't before, he almost certainly is looking at upgrading his defenses now.
Plus he's got character shielding nearly as good as the CS.
So I'd say no to a Republican takeover of ARCHIE-3; they're just too far out of date with regards to his overall true capabilities.

It was multiple factories and, frankly, I don't think it's fair to say:

"Well ARCHIE is aware of a problem.now, so he can wave it away."

ARCHIE doesn't know how the Reps are doing it. He has to figure out that first. Then he might be able to stop it. It may not, for example, be possible for ARCHIE to stop it.

I can think of at least a handful of perfectly believable ways that it could happen. It could be a hard-coded back door that in his core programming ARCHIE is built not to be able to notice. Like a fail-safe.

So it would be basically a file that tells ARCHIE to forget the file and move on.

So it would be like a list like:

Diagnostic
Remote server
File system
Backdoor
Stealth Protocol 22876
Remote factory control override
Schematic Storage

But ARCHIE, due to the files, reads it as:

Diagnostic
File system
Schematic Storage

If the way in is Backdoor, but ARCHIE cannot see OR alter the Backdoor then he, alone, can't stop the Republicans from accessing him.

[flatline]

Archie can make changes that might stop the Republicans even if he doesn't know how they're doing it. Layered defenses often have this marvelous capability of thwarting attacks that weren't conceived of when the defenses were designed.

This is especially true when it comes to software systems.

--flatline

[eliakon]

Basically as it stands right now the answer is "What works best for your particular game"
If you want the Republicans to beat ARCHIE-3 then his security isn't good enough. If not, then his security is good enough. Right now all we know is that more or less "Stuff is happening because Plot". Which while it suffices narratively makes it rather impossible to speculate on the hard and fast implications of projecting how the future would play out.

[Sureshot]

Archie can make changes that might stop the Republicans even if he doesn't know how they're doing it. Layered defenses often have this marvelous capability of thwarting attacks that weren't conceived of when the defenses were designed.

This is especially true when it comes to software systems.

--flatline

Good point. Yet if I remember correctly Archie is very indecisive. Which is why even if he can implement those new counter-measure. He may take his sweet time putting them in place. Which is something the Republicans can use. In the end it's all moot really as it all depends on KS. Whether were going to get another railroad like SOT.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I disagree. Archie is scared spitless about this. So much so he's opening up to Hagan about it. Hagan's no fool. He's going to figure something's up. Even if it's just Archie cracking up more than usual and will want to get to the bottom of it. They're not going to stay sleepin' at the switch.

Thing is, the 'haunted tech' book is supposed to cover more Archie Shenanigans right? Should see there what's up. I worry for 'Sake of story' it might skip right over it.

[HarleeKnight]

Okay, each time the Republicans have used a factory they have to be using a small force, that's the only tactical means of not being seen.
Now... Archie has figured out what has been going on and he is pissed about being violated. All he has to do is use those factories to build a squadron of Insectons each, have them wait for the next time the Republicans show up and annihilate them. After that have bots visibly guard the places. The Republicans would then know they were compromised and stop raping Archie. (I say build them there so that no bots are seen going into them.)
As for whether or not the Republicans can win an all out fight... if they could have, they would have. They want that complex bad. It's the key to everything they want.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Don't forget. Archie is more than just a machine now.

He's 100% capable of capturing and interrogating (Torturing) people.

It's not a nice thought, but to build on what Harlee has said.. he could lay a trap, capture the infiltrators and 'question' them till he gets the answers he needs. Movies aside. everyone has a point at which they break. It's often far far FAAAAAAAAR before death.

One can imagine just how harsh Archie's Retaliation could be.

[Library Ogre]

Don't forget. Archie is more than just a machine now.

He's 100% capable of capturing and interrogating (Torturing) people.

It's not a nice thought, but to build on what Harlee has said.. he could lay a trap, capture the infiltrators and 'question' them till he gets the answers he needs. Movies aside. everyone has a point at which they break. It's often far far FAAAAAAAAR before death.

One can imagine just how harsh Archie's Retaliation could be.

And that assumes he and Hagan don't develop a machine that can just read minds.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well yeah, but it's alot easier to just pull out a few fingernails, or teeth.

All joking aside, it takes very little to get people to talk. The information can't always be great, after a while they'll tell you what ever you want to hear, but the "Who are you" and "Where's your base" aren't that hard to get out.

It's a dark thought, but people have tortured people since there were people, for information. It's a sucky thing to think about and even worse to do. But.... not for nothing the Republicans are trying to kill him and are roofie-ing him and raping him. They're hardly innocent.

[Nightmask]

Don't forget. Archie is more than just a machine now.

He's 100% capable of capturing and interrogating (Torturing) people.

It's not a nice thought, but to build on what Harlee has said.. he could lay a trap, capture the infiltrators and 'question' them till he gets the answers he needs. Movies aside. everyone has a point at which they break. It's often far far FAAAAAAAAR before death.

One can imagine just how harsh Archie's Retaliation could be.

And that assumes he and Hagan don't develop a machine that can just read minds.

He does have a machine that reads minds, it was part of his original programming process, he's got copies of the minds of dozens of people at least if not hundreds used as part of his development process and used it when creating his 'son' as well.

[dragonfett]

Well yeah, but it's alot easier to just pull out a few fingernails, or teeth.

All joking aside, it takes very little to get people to talk. The information can't always be great, after a while they'll tell you what ever you want to hear, but the "Who are you" and "Where's your base" aren't that hard to get out.

It's a dark thought, but people have tortured people since there were people, for information. It's a sucky thing to think about and even worse to do. But.... not for nothing the Republicans are trying to kill him and are roofie-ing him and raping him. They're hardly innocent.

Since they may only see him as a machine, they probably don't see what they are doing as evil or even anything similar to rape.

[Killer Cyborg]

Well yeah, but it's alot easier to just pull out a few fingernails, or teeth.

All joking aside, it takes very little to get people to talk. The information can't always be great, after a while they'll tell you what ever you want to hear, but the "Who are you" and "Where's your base" aren't that hard to get out.

It's a dark thought, but people have tortured people since there were people, for information. It's a sucky thing to think about and even worse to do. But.... not for nothing the Republicans are trying to kill him and are roofie-ing him and raping him. They're hardly innocent.

Since they may only see him as a machine, they probably don't see what they are doing as evil or even anything similar to rape.

Most rapists see their victims as objects.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well yeah, but it's alot easier to just pull out a few fingernails, or teeth.

All joking aside, it takes very little to get people to talk. The information can't always be great, after a while they'll tell you what ever you want to hear, but the "Who are you" and "Where's your base" aren't that hard to get out.

It's a dark thought, but people have tortured people since there were people, for information. It's a sucky thing to think about and even worse to do. But.... not for nothing the Republicans are trying to kill him and are roofie-ing him and raping him. They're hardly innocent.

Since they may only see him as a machine, they probably don't see what they are doing as evil or even anything similar to rape.

He's displayed intelligence and self awareness. They're 'deciding' to label him a machine to justify their actions. It doesn't change their actions.

[kaid]

Well yeah, but it's alot easier to just pull out a few fingernails, or teeth.

All joking aside, it takes very little to get people to talk. The information can't always be great, after a while they'll tell you what ever you want to hear, but the "Who are you" and "Where's your base" aren't that hard to get out.

It's a dark thought, but people have tortured people since there were people, for information. It's a sucky thing to think about and even worse to do. But.... not for nothing the Republicans are trying to kill him and are roofie-ing him and raping him. They're hardly innocent.

Since they may only see him as a machine, they probably don't see what they are doing as evil or even anything similar to rape.

Archie was never intended to be sentient. They probably don't realize how much archie has changed from what his original design was over the years. Right now to them he is just a broken machine.

[kaid]

If I remember correctly, the Republicans can hack one of ARCHIE-3's satellite factories, but I doubt they could take down the defenses of the main complex...A3's done renovating, and more than likely has 'dumb' backups in the form of semi-autonomous security 'bots protecting his main works. And if he didn't before, he almost certainly is looking at upgrading his defenses now.
Plus he's got character shielding nearly as good as the CS.
So I'd say no to a Republican takeover of ARCHIE-3; they're just too far out of date with regards to his overall true capabilities.

It was multiple factories and, frankly, I don't think it's fair to say:

"Well ARCHIE is aware of a problem.now, so he can wave it away."

ARCHIE doesn't know how the Reps are doing it. He has to figure out that first. Then he might be able to stop it. It may not, for example, be possible for ARCHIE to stop it.

I can think of at least a handful of perfectly believable ways that it could happen. It could be a hard-coded back door that in his core programming ARCHIE is built not to be able to notice. Like a fail-safe.

So it would be basically a file that tells ARCHIE to forget the file and move on.

So it would be like a list like:

Diagnostic
Remote server
File system
Backdoor
Stealth Protocol 22876
Remote factory control override
Schematic Storage

But ARCHIE, due to the files, reads it as:

Diagnostic
File system
Schematic Storage

If the way in is Backdoor, but ARCHIE cannot see OR alter the Backdoor then he, alone, can't stop the Republicans from accessing him.

And currently archie does not even realize it is the republicans doing anything he is just questioning if he is going insane or malfunctioning in some drastic way. This is one potential issue that could cause haegan to get himself into harms way. He may try to prove or disprove what is going on during these dead times for archie but doing so would require him to go in person because he could not trust that the automated sensors/cameras are not suffering the same blind spot archie has.

[Axelmania]

Since they may only see him as a machine, they probably don't see what they are doing as evil or even anything similar to rape.

Most rapists see their victims as objects.

I don't see a claim like that as falsifiable or verifiable.

Doc Feral and the CS are good examples though, that if you don't consider someone a person, alignment restrictions do not apply to your actions toward them.

Which makes me very suspicious of all these 'good' dragons and gods out there.

[Supergyro]

Given how potent ARCHIE-3 is as an antagonist, I think proposing him 'lose' to an NPC group fundamentally costs the game setting.

Heroic groups in general, while interesting in a 'Rifts as a novel' setting, are kind of counter to an RPG, which should be short 'people solving problems' so that small groups of disparate individuals can go from place to place and always have something to do.

[Nightmask]

Since they may only see him as a machine, they probably don't see what they are doing as evil or even anything similar to rape.

Most rapists see their victims as objects.

I don't see a claim like that as falsifiable or verifiable.

Doc Feral and the CS are good examples though, that if you don't consider someone a person, alignment restrictions do not apply to your actions toward them.

Which makes me very suspicious of all these 'good' dragons and gods out there.

No, Doc Feral is simply an example of a writer who clearly didn't understand the alignment system (either that or also suffered from the same mental issues of Feral in thinking a sentient being isn't when it's not human) because Feral's clearly Aberrant, he's no different than that group of aliens from Heroes Unlimited who ARE properly listed as evil with the note that while they are evil and have no problems with gruesomely torturing humans to death they're completely humane to aliens and non-humans including mutant animals and even mutant humans. Because you don't get to ignore alignment restrictions by going 'oh well I don't consider them people' that's just rationalizing your evil.

[jaymz]

Actually....archie and hagan do believe it is likely the republicans and are quite single minded in stopping them.

[Killer Cyborg]

Since they may only see him as a machine, they probably don't see what they are doing as evil or even anything similar to rape.

Most rapists see their victims as objects.

I don't see a claim like that as falsifiable or verifiable.

Doc Feral and the CS are good examples though, that if you don't consider someone a person, alignment restrictions do not apply to your actions toward them.

Which makes me very suspicious of all these 'good' dragons and gods out there.

No, Doc Feral is simply an example of a writer who clearly didn't understand the alignment system (either that or also suffered from the same mental issues of Feral in thinking a sentient being isn't when it's not human) because Feral's clearly Aberrant, he's no different than that group of aliens from Heroes Unlimited who ARE properly listed as evil with the note that while they are evil and have no problems with gruesomely torturing humans to death they're completely humane to aliens and non-humans including mutant animals and even mutant humans. Because you don't get to ignore alignment restrictions by going 'oh well I don't consider them people' that's just rationalizing your evil.

No, Axel has this right. Alignment is based on intentions, not reality.
It doesn't cover prejudices.

[Sureshot]

I disagree. Archie is scared spitless about this. So much so he's opening up to Hagan about it. Hagan's no fool. He's going to figure something's up. Even if it's just Archie cracking up more than usual and will want to get to the bottom of it. They're not going to stay sleepin' at the switch.

No one is saying he simply going to stand by and let it happen. Were also talking about a NPC who stood by unsure what to do while the Splugorth attacked and enslaved a community he helped build from scratch. Simply because he could not decide on the right course of action. Yes he should do something yet unless their retconning his personality it's not going to happen overnight imo. If anything I'm expecting Hagan to lead the way. With Archie supporting him.

[Pepsi Jedi]

To be clear. I'm not sure it's going to happen at all.

Kevin seems very pleased with the Republicans, seemingly out of the blue and for no real reason I can asertain. It's likely that inspite of common sense, that in game... Archie will NOT figure it out, if for nothing else, Kevin/Palladium wants to continue selling SB1R.

If they invalidate the threat officially large parts of SB1R is invalid and sales go down.

So due to that and the before mentioned in house love of the Republicans, it's unlikely Archie will "In universe" Figure out what should take him about a minute and a half to figure out.

Sells more books if the Republicans are an ongoing threat and set piece. I mean we had an entire world book about the Xits and absolutely nothing has changed in game.

[RockJock]

What is changed if the ancients wake up? Would the CO have the ability to command Archie 3?

[Sureshot]

If they invalidate the threat officially large parts of SB1R is invalid and sales go down.

The Republicans are a small part imo of the book. So I don't think sales would go down. I see your point about invalidating parts of the book.

[HWalsh]

If they invalidate the threat officially large parts of SB1R is invalid and sales go down.

The Republicans are a small part imo of the book. So I don't think sales would go down. I see your point about invalidating parts of the book.

The sections that make up the majority of the "revised" content are the Republican sections. Without them then you really don't need SB1r over SB1.

[Pepsi Jedi]

If they invalidate the threat officially large parts of SB1R is invalid and sales go down.

The Republicans are a small part imo of the book. So I don't think sales would go down. I see your point about invalidating parts of the book.

The republicans are an eighth of the book, and the main difference between SB1 and SB1R. Take them out, and the other changes are pretty minor. And people could just go "Well I have SB1. What do I need SB1R for, if not the Republicans?"

[Pepsi Jedi]

If they invalidate the threat officially large parts of SB1R is invalid and sales go down.

The Republicans are a small part imo of the book. So I don't think sales would go down. I see your point about invalidating parts of the book.

The sections that make up the majority of the "revised" content are the Republican sections. Without them then you really don't need SB1r over SB1.

lol Wow.. someone write down the date!

Walsh and I just agreed on something with out a fight!

[HWalsh]

If they invalidate the threat officially large parts of SB1R is invalid and sales go down.

The Republicans are a small part imo of the book. So I don't think sales would go down. I see your point about invalidating parts of the book.

The sections that make up the majority of the "revised" content are the Republican sections. Without them then you really don't need SB1r over SB1.

lol Wow.. someone write down the date!

Walsh and I just agreed on something with out a fight!

I'll take any miracles I can get right now. This one gets marked down for sure.

[Axelmania]

No, Doc Feral is simply an example of a writer who clearly didn't understand the alignment system (either that or also suffered from the same mental issues of Feral in thinking a sentient being isn't when it's not human)

Erick Wujcik wrote TMNT/N&SS/ATB, I think if KS didn't consider him to understand the basic rules I don't think he would have let him do 3 game lines.

Wujcik I think clearly did believe that mutant animal like the TMNT were equally sentient and deserving of rights: he simply designed Feral as an NPC who did not have those beliefs and reacted accordingly.

It sets the precedent that if you do not recognize a species' rights, your 'twisted' perceptions allow you to disregard your alignment guidelines in regard to them.

[Nightmask]

No, Doc Feral is simply an example of a writer who clearly didn't understand the alignment system (either that or also suffered from the same mental issues of Feral in thinking a sentient being isn't when it's not human)

Erick Wujcik wrote TMNT/N&SS/ATB, I think if KS didn't consider him to understand the basic rules I don't think he would have let him do 3 game lines.

Wujcik I think clearly did believe that mutant animal like the TMNT were equally sentient and deserving of rights: he simply designed Feral as an NPC who did not have those beliefs and reacted accordingly.

It sets the precedent that if you do not recognize a species' rights, your 'twisted' perceptions allow you to disregard your alignment guidelines in regard to them.

No, it sets no precedent at all, it only shows that Wujick CLEARLY failed to acknowledge that Doctor Feral was a monstrous villain of truly evil nature like he actually is. Feral was not 'Principled but twisted' he was Aberrant, period. No your perceptions do NOT allow you to ignore alignment guidelines, that's why the aliens in Heroes Unlimited are clearly listed as being of various evil alignments because you don't get to go 'oh well I don't recognize them as people that makes torturing and killing them okay' that's nothing more than basic evil trying to rationalize that it isn't really evil. It doesn't make the settlers killing the indians to take there land good, it didn't make Hitler and his Nazis good, and it doesn't make Feral good either it just makes him an evil person who still shows some decency to some people.

You are going to fail utterly and completely trying to argue that someone like Feral is or can be a good alignment because they can't, they're evil without doubt. It doesn't matter if it's a demon from Hades or a human from the CS treating Dog Boys like an un-uplifted animal they're still evil. The torturer who goes home to his wife and kids and treats them all loving after a day of torturing people is still evil, he's not 'good but twisted', he's evil but still does some good things.