e-clips, what are they?

[SpiritInterface]

Are e-clips a battery or a capacitor? Do they actually generate electricity or just store it? If they are a battery, what type are they? Do you need to plug them into a charger or can you use inductive charging? If they can use inductive charging can I have a rack that I just hang my equipment vest on that charges all of my e-clips at once?

[Alrik Vas]

The game provides eclip chargers, but they're expensive. Many here claim you can just use a power armor's nuke after rigging an adapter (there are skills that do this).

E-clips are rechargeable batteries from their description, it would seem.

[glitterboy2098]

from the properties described in the books..
they are a capacitor (they don't function like batteries)
They only store electricity
we only have description of having to plug them into a charger. given the sheer amount of power required upwards of 100 megajoules or more per E-clip, which is a lot, Inductive charging probably wouldn't recharge them very fast. (it works on the order of milliwatts, with a watt being a joule per second. so inductive charging would take decades)

E-clip require a nuclear power plant or equivalent kilowatt or higher output generator to recharge in a usefully short timeframe.

[Damian Magecraft]

mechanically (game mechanics not the skill) they are just a pseudo-science name replacement for ammunition magazines

[eliakon]

Philip José Farmer in his Riverworld series, coined the term Batticitor for his super-tech device that charged like a capacitor/discharged like a battery

[flatline]

E-clip require a nuclear power plant or equivalent kilowatt or higher output generator to recharge in a usefully short timeframe.

What's a usefully short timeframe?

A large lawnmower engine produces about 4hp which is enough to charge an e-clip in about 9.25 hours (overnight?). A large self-propelled mower will have closer to 8hp which is plenty to charge an e-clip in half that time.

If you want to charge an e-clip in less than an hour, you'll need about 40hp.

How powerful is the engine if your car? My old civic has a 140hp engine. Hook that up to a generator and it could charge an e-clip in about 16 minutes. Or 4 e-clips in parallel in a little over an hour.

How many horsepower can someone with supernatural strength produce on an exercise bike? Do the books give us enough hooks to figure that out?

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip...
How many horsepower can someone with supernatural strength produce on an exercise bike? Do the books give us enough hooks to figure that out?

Captain: "Scotty whip those hamsters up to full power...we are going to make the jump into hyperspace"
Chief Eng.: "Aye aye Skipper" *then to his crew*"you herd the Captain.....get out the whips and get all the hamsters running their wheels."
*thinking to self 'oh I do hate the bean counters that thought these new power plants up.....ahhhhh give me my fusion plants back'*
--------------------------
The is a novel called "The Windup Girl" where due to Global warming most carbon heavy industry has been abandoned and where most of the industrial power that was supplied by electricity is now supplied by bio-enginered animals and people deliver by winding up springs or direct drive shafts.

[eliakon]

E-clip require a nuclear power plant or equivalent kilowatt or higher output generator to recharge in a usefully short timeframe.

What's a usefully short timeframe?

A large lawnmower engine produces about 4hp which is enough to charge an e-clip in about 9.25 hours (overnight?). A large self-propelled mower will have closer to 8hp which is plenty to charge an e-clip in half that time.

If you want to charge an e-clip in less than an hour, you'll need about 40hp.

How powerful is the engine if your car? My old civic has a 140hp engine. Hook that up to a generator and it could charge an e-clip in about 16 minutes. Or 4 e-clips in parallel in a little over an hour.

How many horsepower can someone with supernatural strength produce on an exercise bike? Do the books give us enough hooks to figure that out?

Where did you get these numbers from I'm curious?
The only hard numbers I have ever been able to find is the charging rate for the special E-clips that are sold in Century Station that can be charged by plugging them into the wall. I would be grateful for someone being able to point me to where the books have other hard numbers for charge rates.

[Damian Magecraft]

E-clip require a nuclear power plant or equivalent kilowatt or higher output generator to recharge in a usefully short timeframe.

What's a usefully short timeframe?

A large lawnmower engine produces about 4hp which is enough to charge an e-clip in about 9.25 hours (overnight?). A large self-propelled mower will have closer to 8hp which is plenty to charge an e-clip in half that time.

If you want to charge an e-clip in less than an hour, you'll need about 40hp.

How powerful is the engine if your car? My old civic has a 140hp engine. Hook that up to a generator and it could charge an e-clip in about 16 minutes. Or 4 e-clips in parallel in a little over an hour.

How many horsepower can someone with supernatural strength produce on an exercise bike? Do the books give us enough hooks to figure that out?

Could we just once have a conversation on e-clips without the usual suspects trying to devolve it into how "simple" it would be to recharge an imaginary literary device meant as an alternative term for ammunition?

[flatline]

E-clip require a nuclear power plant or equivalent kilowatt or higher output generator to recharge in a usefully short timeframe.

What's a usefully short timeframe?

A large lawnmower engine produces about 4hp which is enough to charge an e-clip in about 9.25 hours (overnight?). A large self-propelled mower will have closer to 8hp which is plenty to charge an e-clip in half that time.

If you want to charge an e-clip in less than an hour, you'll need about 40hp.

How powerful is the engine if your car? My old civic has a 140hp engine. Hook that up to a generator and it could charge an e-clip in about 16 minutes. Or 4 e-clips in parallel in a little over an hour.

How many horsepower can someone with supernatural strength produce on an exercise bike? Do the books give us enough hooks to figure that out?

Where did you get these numbers from I'm curious?
The only hard numbers I have ever been able to find is the charging rate for the special E-clips that are sold in Century Station that can be charged by plugging them into the wall. I would be grateful for someone being able to point me to where the books have other hard numbers for charge rates.

Conversion Book 1 in the Absorb Energy power description says that "10,000 car batteries or 10 e-clips" is 1GW...which of course, doesn't make any sense, so the assumption is that 1GW should have instead been 1GJ, which would mean that a single e-clip has 100MJ of energy stored in it. This is corroborated by the fact that 1000 car batteries from the 1970's or even 80's would be in the ballpark of 100MJ.

From there, it's just math. A 1-watt power source would take 100e6 seconds (3.17 years) to produce 100MJ.
A 1kw power source would take 100e3 seconds (27.8 hours). If you want to charge an e-clip in 1 hour you need a 100e6/3600 = 27.7kw power source (roughly 40hp).

[drewkitty ~..~]

snip....

From there, it's just math. A 1-watt power source would take 100e6 seconds (3.17 years) to produce 100MJ.
A 1kw power source would take 100e3 seconds (27.8 hours). If you want to charge an e-clip in 1 hour you need a 100e6/3600 = 27.7kw power source (roughly 40hp).

"100e3 seconds" "100e6 seconds" e is what? why not just say 100,080 seconds for 27.8 hours so everyone can understand you?
And how did you get different numbers between the 27.8 and the 27.7? similarly why did you change the 3 to a 6?

[eliakon]

E-clip require a nuclear power plant or equivalent kilowatt or higher output generator to recharge in a usefully short timeframe.

What's a usefully short timeframe?

A large lawnmower engine produces about 4hp which is enough to charge an e-clip in about 9.25 hours (overnight?). A large self-propelled mower will have closer to 8hp which is plenty to charge an e-clip in half that time.

If you want to charge an e-clip in less than an hour, you'll need about 40hp.

How powerful is the engine if your car? My old civic has a 140hp engine. Hook that up to a generator and it could charge an e-clip in about 16 minutes. Or 4 e-clips in parallel in a little over an hour.

How many horsepower can someone with supernatural strength produce on an exercise bike? Do the books give us enough hooks to figure that out?

Where did you get these numbers from I'm curious?
The only hard numbers I have ever been able to find is the charging rate for the special E-clips that are sold in Century Station that can be charged by plugging them into the wall. I would be grateful for someone being able to point me to where the books have other hard numbers for charge rates.

Conversion Book 1 in the Absorb Energy power description says that "10,000 car batteries or 10 e-clips" is 1GW...which of course, doesn't make any sense, so the assumption is that 1GW should have instead been 1GJ, which would mean that a single e-clip has 100MJ of energy stored in it. This is corroborated by the fact that 1000 car batteries from the 1970's or even 80's would be in the ballpark of 100MJ.

From there, it's just math. A 1-watt power source would take 100e6 seconds (3.17 years) to produce 100MJ.
A 1kw power source would take 100e3 seconds (27.8 hours). If you want to charge an e-clip in 1 hour you need a 100e6/3600 = 27.7kw power source (roughly 40hp).

So basically its made up since it relies on first assuming that one can 'clarify' what the book meant so as to make the math work, and then that chargers work at 100% efficiency with no waste to heat or any thing else.

[flatline]

E-clip require a nuclear power plant or equivalent kilowatt or higher output generator to recharge in a usefully short timeframe.

What's a usefully short timeframe?

A large lawnmower engine produces about 4hp which is enough to charge an e-clip in about 9.25 hours (overnight?). A large self-propelled mower will have closer to 8hp which is plenty to charge an e-clip in half that time.

If you want to charge an e-clip in less than an hour, you'll need about 40hp.

How powerful is the engine if your car? My old civic has a 140hp engine. Hook that up to a generator and it could charge an e-clip in about 16 minutes. Or 4 e-clips in parallel in a little over an hour.

How many horsepower can someone with supernatural strength produce on an exercise bike? Do the books give us enough hooks to figure that out?

Could we just once have a conversation on e-clips without the usual suspects trying to devolve it into how "simple" it would be to recharge an imaginary literary device meant as an alternative term for ammunition?

My post was simply pointing out that it doesn't take a a huge power source to generate 100MJ in a reasonable amount of time. Whether you let those joules recharge an e-clip in your game is entirely up to you as the GM.

[Damian Magecraft]

E-clip require a nuclear power plant or equivalent kilowatt or higher output generator to recharge in a usefully short timeframe.

What's a usefully short timeframe?

A large lawnmower engine produces about 4hp which is enough to charge an e-clip in about 9.25 hours (overnight?). A large self-propelled mower will have closer to 8hp which is plenty to charge an e-clip in half that time.

If you want to charge an e-clip in less than an hour, you'll need about 40hp.

How powerful is the engine if your car? My old civic has a 140hp engine. Hook that up to a generator and it could charge an e-clip in about 16 minutes. Or 4 e-clips in parallel in a little over an hour.

How many horsepower can someone with supernatural strength produce on an exercise bike? Do the books give us enough hooks to figure that out?

Could we just once have a conversation on e-clips without the usual suspects trying to devolve it into how "simple" it would be to recharge an imaginary literary device meant as an alternative term for ammunition?

My post was simply pointing out that it doesn't take a a huge power source to generate 100MJ in a reasonable amount of time. Whether you let those joules recharge an e-clip in your game is entirely up to you as the GM.

Why don't I believe that?
Oh right...
Past experience.

[Damian Magecraft]

What's a usefully short timeframe?

A large lawnmower engine produces about 4hp which is enough to charge an e-clip in about 9.25 hours (overnight?). A large self-propelled mower will have closer to 8hp which is plenty to charge an e-clip in half that time.

If you want to charge an e-clip in less than an hour, you'll need about 40hp.

How powerful is the engine if your car? My old civic has a 140hp engine. Hook that up to a generator and it could charge an e-clip in about 16 minutes. Or 4 e-clips in parallel in a little over an hour.

How many horsepower can someone with supernatural strength produce on an exercise bike? Do the books give us enough hooks to figure that out?

Where did you get these numbers from I'm curious?
The only hard numbers I have ever been able to find is the charging rate for the special E-clips that are sold in Century Station that can be charged by plugging them into the wall. I would be grateful for someone being able to point me to where the books have other hard numbers for charge rates.

Conversion Book 1 in the Absorb Energy power description says that "10,000 car batteries or 10 e-clips" is 1GW...which of course, doesn't make any sense, so the assumption is that 1GW should have instead been 1GJ, which would mean that a single e-clip has 100MJ of energy stored in it. This is corroborated by the fact that 1000 car batteries from the 1970's or even 80's would be in the ballpark of 100MJ.

From there, it's just math. A 1-watt power source would take 100e6 seconds (3.17 years) to produce 100MJ.
A 1kw power source would take 100e3 seconds (27.8 hours). If you want to charge an e-clip in 1 hour you need a 100e6/3600 = 27.7kw power source (roughly 40hp).

So basically its made up since it relies on first assuming that one can 'clarify' what the book meant so as to make the math work, and then that chargers work at 100% efficiency with no waste to heat or any thing else.

pretty much....
when the theory wont fit the facts he alters the facts not the theory.

Warning: Personal insults. Mack

[flatline]

E-clip require a nuclear power plant or equivalent kilowatt or higher output generator to recharge in a usefully short timeframe.

What's a usefully short timeframe?

A large lawnmower engine produces about 4hp which is enough to charge an e-clip in about 9.25 hours (overnight?). A large self-propelled mower will have closer to 8hp which is plenty to charge an e-clip in half that time.

If you want to charge an e-clip in less than an hour, you'll need about 40hp.

How powerful is the engine if your car? My old civic has a 140hp engine. Hook that up to a generator and it could charge an e-clip in about 16 minutes. Or 4 e-clips in parallel in a little over an hour.

How many horsepower can someone with supernatural strength produce on an exercise bike? Do the books give us enough hooks to figure that out?

Where did you get these numbers from I'm curious?
The only hard numbers I have ever been able to find is the charging rate for the special E-clips that are sold in Century Station that can be charged by plugging them into the wall. I would be grateful for someone being able to point me to where the books have other hard numbers for charge rates.

Conversion Book 1 in the Absorb Energy power description says that "10,000 car batteries or 10 e-clips" is 1GW...which of course, doesn't make any sense, so the assumption is that 1GW should have instead been 1GJ, which would mean that a single e-clip has 100MJ of energy stored in it. This is corroborated by the fact that 1000 car batteries from the 1970's or even 80's would be in the ballpark of 100MJ.

From there, it's just math. A 1-watt power source would take 100e6 seconds (3.17 years) to produce 100MJ.
A 1kw power source would take 100e3 seconds (27.8 hours). If you want to charge an e-clip in 1 hour you need a 100e6/3600 = 27.7kw power source (roughly 40hp).

So basically its made up since it relies on first assuming that one can 'clarify' what the book meant so as to make the math work, and then that chargers work at 100% efficiency with no waste to heat or any thing else.

It's a guess with some weak, but internally consistent rationale. If you'd like to propose some other number, feel free.

Use whatever efficiency you feel appropriate to adjust the numbers. Modern alternators are typically 90+ percent efficient and a modern li-ion secondary cell is pretty close to 100% efficient for the first 70 or 80 percent of it's charge. Capacitors are even better.

[Nightmask]

E-clip require a nuclear power plant or equivalent kilowatt or higher output generator to recharge in a usefully short timeframe.

What's a usefully short timeframe?

A large lawnmower engine produces about 4hp which is enough to charge an e-clip in about 9.25 hours (overnight?). A large self-propelled mower will have closer to 8hp which is plenty to charge an e-clip in half that time.

If you want to charge an e-clip in less than an hour, you'll need about 40hp.

How powerful is the engine if your car? My old civic has a 140hp engine. Hook that up to a generator and it could charge an e-clip in about 16 minutes. Or 4 e-clips in parallel in a little over an hour.

How many horsepower can someone with supernatural strength produce on an exercise bike? Do the books give us enough hooks to figure that out?

Where did you get these numbers from I'm curious?
The only hard numbers I have ever been able to find is the charging rate for the special E-clips that are sold in Century Station that can be charged by plugging them into the wall. I would be grateful for someone being able to point me to where the books have other hard numbers for charge rates.

Conversion Book 1 in the Absorb Energy power description says that "10,000 car batteries or 10 e-clips" is 1GW...which of course, doesn't make any sense, so the assumption is that 1GW should have instead been 1GJ, which would mean that a single e-clip has 100MJ of energy stored in it. This is corroborated by the fact that 1000 car batteries from the 1970's or even 80's would be in the ballpark of 100MJ.

From there, it's just math. A 1-watt power source would take 100e6 seconds (3.17 years) to produce 100MJ.
A 1kw power source would take 100e3 seconds (27.8 hours). If you want to charge an e-clip in 1 hour you need a 100e6/3600 = 27.7kw power source (roughly 40hp).

So basically its made up since it relies on first assuming that one can 'clarify' what the book meant so as to make the math work, and then that chargers work at 100% efficiency with no waste to heat or any thing else.

There's nothing 'made up' about it, he points out quite accurately that the book is in error using an incorrect unit of measurement but if changed to the correct measurement it lines up with the RL data supporting the change, with the rest being as he says just math. Chargers are also effectively 100% efficient, otherwise you'd have to worry about things melting down because the last thing you want is waste heat in such a situation.

[flatline]

snip....

From there, it's just math. A 1-watt power source would take 100e6 seconds (3.17 years) to produce 100MJ.
A 1kw power source would take 100e3 seconds (27.8 hours). If you want to charge an e-clip in 1 hour you need a 100e6/3600 = 27.7kw power source (roughly 40hp).

"100e3 seconds" "100e6 seconds" e is what? why not just say 100,080 seconds for 27.8 hours so everyone can understand you?

I assumed that anyone interested in the numbers would be familiar with e-notation.

100e3 is equivalent to 100x10^3. 100e6 is equivalent to 100x10^6. It's a convenient shorthand when dealing with large numbers.

And how did you get different numbers between the 27.8 and the 27.7?

Rounding? I might have gotten careless after the first 2 significant digits. I'd have to run the math through google again to confirm.

similarly why did you change the 3 to a 6?

Because I changed units from watts to kilowatts.

[guardiandashi]

I never worried too much about the details, but in many ways I feel that eclips are closer to capacitors than batteries, and IMO it has more to do with their discharge capabilities than their charging.

essentially eclips are a rather huge amount of power in a small package.

my personal observation is that they accept a large amount of energy, and then release it on demand to power a number of types of devices. Granted its mostly guns ... but I have seen other devices, such as a jetpack, shield generators, computers etc. powered by eclips

[eliakon]

What's a usefully short timeframe?

A large lawnmower engine produces about 4hp which is enough to charge an e-clip in about 9.25 hours (overnight?). A large self-propelled mower will have closer to 8hp which is plenty to charge an e-clip in half that time.

If you want to charge an e-clip in less than an hour, you'll need about 40hp.

How powerful is the engine if your car? My old civic has a 140hp engine. Hook that up to a generator and it could charge an e-clip in about 16 minutes. Or 4 e-clips in parallel in a little over an hour.

How many horsepower can someone with supernatural strength produce on an exercise bike? Do the books give us enough hooks to figure that out?

Where did you get these numbers from I'm curious?
The only hard numbers I have ever been able to find is the charging rate for the special E-clips that are sold in Century Station that can be charged by plugging them into the wall. I would be grateful for someone being able to point me to where the books have other hard numbers for charge rates.

Conversion Book 1 in the Absorb Energy power description says that "10,000 car batteries or 10 e-clips" is 1GW...which of course, doesn't make any sense, so the assumption is that 1GW should have instead been 1GJ, which would mean that a single e-clip has 100MJ of energy stored in it. This is corroborated by the fact that 1000 car batteries from the 1970's or even 80's would be in the ballpark of 100MJ.

From there, it's just math. A 1-watt power source would take 100e6 seconds (3.17 years) to produce 100MJ.
A 1kw power source would take 100e3 seconds (27.8 hours). If you want to charge an e-clip in 1 hour you need a 100e6/3600 = 27.7kw power source (roughly 40hp).

So basically its made up since it relies on first assuming that one can 'clarify' what the book meant so as to make the math work, and then that chargers work at 100% efficiency with no waste to heat or any thing else.

There's nothing 'made up' about it, he points out quite accurately that the book is in error using an incorrect unit of measurement but if changed to the correct measurement it lines up with the RL data supporting the change, with the rest being as he says just math. Chargers are also effectively 100% efficient, otherwise you'd have to worry about things melting down because the last thing you want is waste heat in such a situation.

No if he changes it to A DIFFERENT measurement it lines up.
It only works if he has the ability to know what the author really meant instead of what they actually wrote and then gets to use THAT instead.
He doesn't. Nor is he a PB staffer or editor. He can offer his house rule on what he thinks is a good house rule fix for what he feels in the 'obvious mistake' in the game. But he is not in any position to actually state with any certainty what is actually 'In error' in a book let alone offer any sort of 'official correction' for it.
Thus his numbers are nothing better than his personal house rule. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Nightmask]

There's nothing 'made up' about it, he points out quite accurately that the book is in error using an incorrect unit of measurement but if changed to the correct measurement it lines up with the RL data supporting the change, with the rest being as he says just math. Chargers are also effectively 100% efficient, otherwise you'd have to worry about things melting down because the last thing you want is waste heat in such a situation.

No if he changes it to A DIFFERENT measurement it lines up.
He has the ability to know what the author really meant instead of what they actually wrote and then gets to use THAT instead.
He doesn't. He isn't a PB staffer or editor. He can offer his house rule on what he thinks is a good house rule fix for what he feels in the 'obvious mistake' in the game. But he is not in any position to actually state with any certainty what is actually 'In error' in a book let alone offer any sort of 'official correction' for it.
Thus his numbers are nothing better than his personal house rule. Nothing more, nothing less.

What he's doing is changing it from a unit of measurement that's not appropriate to what's being measured to one that is, just like you don't measure how much something weighs in inches, because inches aren't a unit of measurement for weight. His change is also supported because the other data given (the amount of energy stored in conventional car batteries) lines up with that change.

[eliakon]

There's nothing 'made up' about it, he points out quite accurately that the book is in error using an incorrect unit of measurement but if changed to the correct measurement it lines up with the RL data supporting the change, with the rest being as he says just math. Chargers are also effectively 100% efficient, otherwise you'd have to worry about things melting down because the last thing you want is waste heat in such a situation.

No if he changes it to A DIFFERENT measurement it lines up.
He has the ability to know what the author really meant instead of what they actually wrote and then gets to use THAT instead.
He doesn't. He isn't a PB staffer or editor. He can offer his house rule on what he thinks is a good house rule fix for what he feels in the 'obvious mistake' in the game. But he is not in any position to actually state with any certainty what is actually 'In error' in a book let alone offer any sort of 'official correction' for it.
Thus his numbers are nothing better than his personal house rule. Nothing more, nothing less.

What he's doing is changing it from a unit of measurement that's not appropriate to what's being measured to one that is, just like you don't measure how much something weighs in inches, because inches aren't a unit of measurement for weight. His change is also supported because the other data given (the amount of energy stored in conventional car batteries) lines up with that change.

Okay, lets say, hypothetically that he is allowed to do this (I am not saying he can but we will, for the sake of discussion say he can)
Now. What is his citation for the figure that a 10,000 1980 car batteries equals 1GJ.
Since remember the other part of the claim is that he has to be able to prove that his "Correction" is accurate. To do so not only does the corrected term have to be the right term it has to be the right value.
So, proof that the value is correct?

[Nightmask]

There's nothing 'made up' about it, he points out quite accurately that the book is in error using an incorrect unit of measurement but if changed to the correct measurement it lines up with the RL data supporting the change, with the rest being as he says just math. Chargers are also effectively 100% efficient, otherwise you'd have to worry about things melting down because the last thing you want is waste heat in such a situation.

No if he changes it to A DIFFERENT measurement it lines up.
He has the ability to know what the author really meant instead of what they actually wrote and then gets to use THAT instead.
He doesn't. He isn't a PB staffer or editor. He can offer his house rule on what he thinks is a good house rule fix for what he feels in the 'obvious mistake' in the game. But he is not in any position to actually state with any certainty what is actually 'In error' in a book let alone offer any sort of 'official correction' for it.
Thus his numbers are nothing better than his personal house rule. Nothing more, nothing less.

What he's doing is changing it from a unit of measurement that's not appropriate to what's being measured to one that is, just like you don't measure how much something weighs in inches, because inches aren't a unit of measurement for weight. His change is also supported because the other data given (the amount of energy stored in conventional car batteries) lines up with that change.

Okay, lets say, hypothetically that he is allowed to do this (I am not saying he can but we will, for the sake of discussion say he can)
Now. What is his citation for the figure that a 10,000 1980 car batteries equals 1GJ.
Since remember the other part of the claim is that he has to be able to prove that his "Correction" is accurate. To do so not only does the corrected term have to be the right term it has to be the right value.
So, proof that the value is correct?

Well that's up to him to provide, but do remember that you're accepting the figure of 10,000 car batteries as a canon equivalent to the other value so if that's accurate you have to accept that changing it from watts to joules isn't just a house rule but the actual value supported by the other information we're given since you can't have it both be in watts and joules because they aren't equivalent units and the weight is on it being joules not watts.

[eliakon]

There's nothing 'made up' about it, he points out quite accurately that the book is in error using an incorrect unit of measurement but if changed to the correct measurement it lines up with the RL data supporting the change, with the rest being as he says just math. Chargers are also effectively 100% efficient, otherwise you'd have to worry about things melting down because the last thing you want is waste heat in such a situation.

No if he changes it to A DIFFERENT measurement it lines up.
He has the ability to know what the author really meant instead of what they actually wrote and then gets to use THAT instead.
He doesn't. He isn't a PB staffer or editor. He can offer his house rule on what he thinks is a good house rule fix for what he feels in the 'obvious mistake' in the game. But he is not in any position to actually state with any certainty what is actually 'In error' in a book let alone offer any sort of 'official correction' for it.
Thus his numbers are nothing better than his personal house rule. Nothing more, nothing less.

What he's doing is changing it from a unit of measurement that's not appropriate to what's being measured to one that is, just like you don't measure how much something weighs in inches, because inches aren't a unit of measurement for weight. His change is also supported because the other data given (the amount of energy stored in conventional car batteries) lines up with that change.

Okay, lets say, hypothetically that he is allowed to do this (I am not saying he can but we will, for the sake of discussion say he can)
Now. What is his citation for the figure that a 10,000 1980 car batteries equals 1GJ.
Since remember the other part of the claim is that he has to be able to prove that his "Correction" is accurate. To do so not only does the corrected term have to be the right term it has to be the right value.
So, proof that the value is correct?

Well that's up to him to provide, but do remember that you're accepting the figure of 10,000 car batteries as a canon equivalent to the other value so if that's accurate you have to accept that changing it from watts to joules isn't just a house rule but the actual value supported by the other information we're given since you can't have it both be in watts and joules because they aren't equivalent units and the weight is on it being joules not watts.

Yeah, I'll buy that. If we can find a valid reliable source for how many joules are in a car battery then what they call it doesn't matter...
we just set 1000(car battery)=1(e-clip) and go from there.
But first you need a valid value for (car battery)

[cosmicfish]

Car batteries are 12V and can range in capacity from 40-150 amp-hours*. If we take the typical at around 50 amp-hours and assume that it holds that 12V down to the bitter end** then you have 12V * 50A * 3600s = 2.16 MJ. 10,000 of these would therefore have 21.6 GJ of energy. Of course, you could make arguments for it being a little less or three times as much.


*: These are approximate, I am sure that there are some smaller and some larger somewhere.
**: Never happens, all batteries have an IV curve and it is NOT a straight line.

[cosmicfish]

Chargers are also effectively 100% efficient, otherwise you'd have to worry about things melting down because the last thing you want is waste heat in such a situation.

Chargers are NOT 100% efficient!!! The best I can remember off of the top of my head are around 90%, and you can probably find professionally made chargers that will only do 70%. If you are improvising one, your efficiency is apt to be a lot worse. Remember, companies that make electronics keep mechanical engineers on staff in part to deal with the heat loads.

[flatline]

Car batteries are 12V and can range in capacity from 50-150 amp-hours*. If we take the median at 100 amp-hours and assume that it holds that 12V down to the bitter end** then you have 12V * 100A * 3600s = 4.32 MJ. 10,000 of these would therefore have 43.2 GJ of energy.


*: These are approximate, I am sure that there are some smaller and some larger somewhere.
**: Never happens, all batteries have an IV curve and it is NOT a straight line.

My google-fu is weak tonight. I know I've seen a graph that showed how lead acid batteries have improved over the last several decades (1975 was 40 years ago, you know), but I can't seem to find it. I thought it was a BatteryUniverisity, but didn't see when I skimmed the sight just now. Have car batteries improved by a multiple of 43 in the last 40 years? If not, is it close enough that we can use 100MJ as a nice round number that's easy to remember?

I'll see if I can find that graph (or something similar).

[eliakon]

Car batteries are 12V and can range in capacity from 40-150 amp-hours*. If we take the typical at around 50 amp-hours and assume that it holds that 12V down to the bitter end** then you have 12V * 50A * 3600s = 2.16 MJ. 10,000 of these would therefore have 21.6 GJ of energy. Of course, you could make arguments for it being a little less or three times as much.


*: These are approximate, I am sure that there are some smaller and some larger somewhere.
**: Never happens, all batteries have an IV curve and it is NOT a straight line.

My google-fu is weak tonight. I know I've seen a graph that showed how lead acid batteries have improved over the last several decades (1975 was 40 years ago, you know), but I can't seem to find it. I thought it was a BatteryUniverisity, but didn't see when I skimmed the sight just now. Have car batteries improved by a multiple of 43 in the last 40 years? If not, is it close enough that we can use 100MJ as a nice round number that's easy to remember?

I'll see if I can find that graph (or something similar).

So we have values from as low as ~20GJ to as high as ~65GJ....
NONE of which is remotely close to 1GJ which tells me that we can safely discard the notion that 10,000 car batteries (and thus 10 E-Clips) is equal to 1GJ, and thus all the numbers predicated on such need to be increased by at LEAST a factor of twenty.

Chargers are also effectively 100% efficient, otherwise you'd have to worry about things melting down because the last thing you want is waste heat in such a situation.

Chargers are NOT 100% efficient!!! The best I can remember off of the top of my head are around 90%, and you can probably find professionally made chargers that will only do 70%. If you are improvising one, your efficiency is apt to be a lot worse. Remember, companies that make electronics keep mechanical engineers on staff in part to deal with the heat loads.

The efficiency rate is going to be important since we need to know this to figure out how much we need to put IN to get out what we want.
Best case 20GJ and 90% you still need to put in 22GJ...and if its 65GJ and 70%? *shudders*

[glitterboy2098]

Chargers are also effectively 100% efficient, otherwise you'd have to worry about things melting down because the last thing you want is waste heat in such a situation.

Chargers are NOT 100% efficient!!! The best I can remember off of the top of my head are around 90%, and you can probably find professionally made chargers that will only do 70%. If you are improvising one, your efficiency is apt to be a lot worse. Remember, companies that make electronics keep mechanical engineers on staff in part to deal with the heat loads.

actually this whole discussion of the efficiency of the charger is pointless because at no point in the original example was efficiency given. jsut that the input to the E-clip was a certain wattage (see below) and that it would take such a given amount of time.
at no point was the amount of energy the charger used to provide that input to the E-clip given.

and thwe later example of the horsepower of engines needed clearly was being done based on real world systems. which we have specific real world stats for, so arguing over the efficiency there is pointless because it's not assuming perfect efficiency.

while rifts electronics are clearly very efficient (since you can have very powerful laser weapons without melting themselves or frying their user from waste heat), 100% is unlikely.

Where did you get these numbers from I'm curious?
The only hard numbers I have ever been able to find is the charging rate for the special E-clips that are sold in Century Station that can be charged by plugging them into the wall. I would be grateful for someone being able to point me to where the books have other hard numbers for charge rates.

Conversion Book 1 in the Absorb Energy power description says that "10,000 car batteries or 10 e-clips" is 1GW...which of course, doesn't make any sense, so the assumption is that 1GW should have instead been 1GJ, which would mean that a single e-clip has 100MJ of energy stored in it. This is corroborated by the fact that 1000 car batteries from the 1970's or even 80's would be in the ballpark of 100MJ.

From there, it's just math. A 1-watt power source would take 100e6 seconds (3.17 years) to produce 100MJ.
A 1kw power source would take 100e3 seconds (27.8 hours). If you want to charge an e-clip in 1 hour you need a 100e6/3600 = 27.7kw power source (roughly 40hp).

So basically its made up since it relies on first assuming that one can 'clarify' what the book meant so as to make the math work, and then that chargers work at 100% efficiency with no waste to heat or any thing else.

There's nothing 'made up' about it, he points out quite accurately that the book is in error using an incorrect unit of measurement but if changed to the correct measurement it lines up with the RL data supporting the change, with the rest being as he says just math. Chargers are also effectively 100% efficient, otherwise you'd have to worry about things melting down because the last thing you want is waste heat in such a situation.

No if he changes it to A DIFFERENT measurement it lines up.
It only works if he has the ability to know what the author really meant instead of what they actually wrote and then gets to use THAT instead.
He doesn't. Nor is he a PB staffer or editor. He can offer his house rule on what he thinks is a good house rule fix for what he feels in the 'obvious mistake' in the game. But he is not in any position to actually state with any certainty what is actually 'In error' in a book let alone offer any sort of 'official correction' for it.
Thus his numbers are nothing better than his personal house rule. Nothing more, nothing less.

IT IS NOT A DIFFERENT MEASUREMENT.

1 watt is a measure of energy use, equal to 1 joule per second.

since the book does not specify the length of time, it automatically gets read as equaling one second. thus in such case 1 watt becomes 1 joule.

and since the power is not about power transfer but instead of storage, joules is the appropriate term.

I never worried too much about the details, but in many ways I feel that eclips are closer to capacitors than batteries, and IMO it has more to do with their discharge capabilities than their charging.

essentially eclips are a rather huge amount of power in a small package.

my personal observation is that they accept a large amount of energy, and then release it on demand to power a number of types of devices. Granted its mostly guns ... but I have seen other devices, such as a jetpack, shield generators, computers etc. powered by eclips

the rate of output is what makes them clearly Capacitors. batteries release their energy gradually over a long period of time. this is due to their use of various chemical storage systems. their output is limited to the rate of the chemical reactions. so while a battery might have a large amount of power inside it, only a small fraction is available at any given moment in time.

Capacitors store their power in non-chemical fashion, and can be discharged at any rate. they can even discharge their entire stored energy in an instant.

since the same e-clips can provide a large number of shots for one weapon, but a small number for another, or even a single shot in the case of thing liek the ATL-7, it's clear that they can discharge their stored power at any rate, rather than a steady but slow rate.

thus capacitors.

[cosmicfish]

I agree that they function more like capacitors than batteries, but unless the distinction is actually relevant to something I am not sure the point of arguing it. Car batteries have improved over the decades, just not really in terms of the energy stored - they've gotten more efficient, longer lasting, smaller, etc. I mentioned efficiency just because 100% never ever ever happens, and ultimately any calculation like this that gets within an order of magnitude of "truth" is going to be pretty good. It's not like we know what kind of power any of the nukes put out anyway!

Look, the canon discussions of e-clips don't suggest to me that there was that much effort put into making them logical or consistent - they are a convenient abstraction of something that most players barely pay attention to anyway. Call it a capacitor, say it takes 20 GJ to charge (a nice round number, and who cares what it actually holds when we don't really know how it is used!). Whether it "really" holds 2GJ or 200GJ is only relevant if someone has access to a whole lot of other numbers that I am 99% sure don't exist in canon anyway.

[Killer Cyborg]

Are e-clips a battery or a capacitor?

Batteries.

Do they actually generate electricity or just store it?

They just store it.

If they are a battery, what type are they?

A new type that modern science hasn't figured out yet.

Do you need to plug them into a charger or can you use inductive charging?

You have to plug them into a charger.

[Killer Cyborg]

Conversion Book 1 in the Absorb Energy power description says that "10,000 car batteries or 10 e-clips" is 1GW...which of course, doesn't make any sense...

People said the same thing about the Kessel Run and parsecs.

[flatline]

If they can use inductive charging can I have a rack that I just hang my equipment vest on that charges all of my e-clips at once?

Sorry I missed this initially. Inductive charging is a terribly inefficient way to charge anything. What inductive charging is doing is basically creating a transformer (current in one coil inducing a current in another coil) but without the extremely close proximity and conductive bar that give transformers their efficiency.

In other words, it's making a transformer, but a really, really, really bad transformer. Unsuitable for transferring serious amounts of energy.

Physical contacts would definitely be the way to go.

[flatline]

Are e-clips a battery or a capacitor?

Batteries.

What leads you to this conclusion?

[eliakon]

Are e-clips a battery or a capacitor?

I believe the correct answer is "C some sort of ultra-tech unholy love child of the two"

[drewkitty ~..~]

E-clips are not batteries cause there are smallarms that specifically say they take batteries.

The Shiny One's 1st post's answer is the best one so far for a real world explanation (edit: without over complicating things), and DM's 1st post here is the best for Game Mech. explanation.

[guardiandashi]

E-clips are not batteries cause there are smallarms that specifically say they take batteries.

The Shiny One's 1st post's answer is the best one so far for a real world explanation, and DM's 1st post here is the best for Game Mech. explanation.

pretty good efficiency for a relatively modern charger was the one used for the Tesla cars battery pack, the "wall" charger where you plug it in is cited at being ~93% efficient which means for practical purposes that 93% of the energy in comes out as "useful output" with ~7% as losses such as heat. theoretically the rifts ones may be more efficient for the "professional equivalent units"

[glitterboy2098]

since the books don't give the output of most generators, just the recharge time, efficiency isn't really worth figuring out.

and for a GM that is using the derived numbers we've pointed out above to work out how a certain real world electrical source might work as a charger, it's easier to just fudge things and not worry about efficiency at all.. just calculate the time as if at 100%, then round/fudge to make it a touch higher.

i would say though that an E-clip can discharge all its power in an instant, recharging should probably take time (since we know that overcharging a E-clip has some bad effects.. explosive in the worst cases, and for safety's sake i'd imagine that you'd want a more gradual input to better control the timing.)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Conversion Book 1 in the Absorb Energy power description says that "10,000 car batteries or 10 e-clips" is 1GW...which of course, doesn't make any sense...

People said the same thing about the Kessel Run and parsecs.

This....

[Pepsi Jedi]

Are e-clips a battery or a capacitor? Do they actually generate electricity or just store it? If they are a battery, what type are they? Do you need to plug them into a charger or can you use inductive charging? If they can use inductive charging can I have a rack that I just hang my equipment vest on that charges all of my e-clips at once?

To answer the OP.

1: They're neither a battery or a capacitor. They're a "Science fiction stand in" That doesn't conform 100% to either. Sorta like a 'Hydro spanner" is used all the time in a tool in Star Trek and other sci fi things but isn't a screw driver or a wrench. It's a sci fi stand in for a 'hand tool.
2: They just store energy.
3: As a sci fi stand in they're a "Eclip" Type thing. Which translates into "Pew pew pew Ammo"
4: You need to plug them into very expensive chargers. No inductive charging. All chargers from the books talk about plugging the e-clip into a port on the charger.

As a side note. as was mentioned close to the top there are two... camps? Sides? To the Eclip debate.

One side.. we'll call it Side "A" Goes with what the book says. That you need one of the very expensive eclip chargers to recharge an Eclip. As it's containing energy that translates into Mega damage blasts from what ever weapon. It's -specialized- stuff. I.E. the Eclip charger charges Eclips. Boom done.

Then there's a second side. Side 'B" that seems to think that all you need is two wires and ANY NUCLEAR REACTOR ON THE PLANET. Attach wires to the nuclear reactor. Touch them to an eclip and you're good to go.

I'm not making that up. There have been long, drawn out, knock down, drag out fights about this. Side A goes by the book. Side B cites that because an operator can build a charger that you can just slap some jumper cables on a nuclear reactor(Any nuclear reactor. Ignoring 100% it's a ---- nuclear reactor----), clack the ends together to make sure the nuclear reactor is juicing the jumper cables and then clamp them onto an eclip and charge it.

Side A thinks side B is crazy. Side B claims Side A doesn't understand science (Even though at best we're not actually talking about science, but science fiction). Side A points out that there's alot of stuff between "NUCLEAR FRIGGING REACTOR" and "just touch the poles to the thing, it'll work" Side B claims that hyper advanced nuclear power sources, that can run power armor and giant vehicles are no more complicated than car batteries, and that yes. These micronized super nuclear power plants that will run power armor for years... have poles on them to hook your jumper cables up to and it works just fine when you do.

The two sides don't really get along well when they start yelling at one another.


At the end of the day. "Eclips are sci fi analogs for ammo magazines. You 'reload' them by plugging them into a specialized Sci fi device called.... an Eclip charger."
How do they work? They work on hyper advanced sci fi principals that we don't understand and can only --speculate-- at. If we actually understood it, we'd have them IRL.

So the first step past "This is how the books say they work" is speculation.

[flatline]

Then there's a second side. Side 'B" that seems to think that all you need is two wires and ANY NUCLEAR REACTOR ON THE PLANET. Attach wires to the nuclear reactor. Touch them to an eclip and you're good to go.

Part of the problem is that side A oversimplifies side B's position and then mocks the straw man they've created.

If anyone is actually interested in side B's position, PM me.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

Are e-clips a battery or a capacitor?

Batteries.

What leads you to this conclusion?

Mostly an impression that the books refer to them as batteries at some point, perhaps in the initial description, or perhaps in someplace like the Energy Absorbtion power description.

Also though, it's not Kevin's M/O to put a lot of thought or technical knowledge into Rifts technology.

Btw, you get bonus points for using the term "leads" in a conversation about batteries.

[Nightmask]

Then there's a second side. Side 'B" that seems to think that all you need is two wires and ANY NUCLEAR REACTOR ON THE PLANET. Attach wires to the nuclear reactor. Touch them to an eclip and you're good to go.

Part of the problem is that side A oversimplifies side B's position and then mocks the straw man they've created.

If anyone is actually interested in side B's position, PM me.

--flatline

The other part is Side A ignoring the fact that you do not in fact have to use expensive rechargers to recharge e-clips and a number of OCC are noted as being capable of doing so as well as several skills readily available to nearly anyone unless they're an anti-tech race or class. There is no 'one can only recharge e-clips from expensive rechargers' rule in the game.

But this does digress from the original point of the topic and there are plenty of (locked) threads one can find to see the various positions on the topic of e-clips and recharging them.

[eliakon]

Well we can at least put a stake in one of the persistent myths about E-Clips.
E-clips do not sort 0.1 GJ of energy and the Conversion Book 1 is not a 'typo' that is correctable from 1GW to 1GJ.
This is provable since we demonstrated that 10,000 Car Batteries is not 1GJ....thus what ever the 1GW was supposed to be it can't be 1GJ since that is not a valid solution.
It could be a value between 2GJ and 6.5GJ.
But it is not 1

[Tiree]

Then there's a second side. Side 'B" that seems to think that all you need is two wires and ANY NUCLEAR REACTOR ON THE PLANET. Attach wires to the nuclear reactor. Touch them to an eclip and you're good to go.

Part of the problem is that side A oversimplifies side B's position and then mocks the straw man they've created.

If anyone is actually interested in side B's position, PM me.

--flatline

I fall into camp B's position as well, and totally agree that I find the presentation of Camp B's position is over simplification. Maybe I actually fall into Camp C, where if you have the required skills, parts, and equipment, then yes you can recharge an e-clip. Of course this is all dependent upon the GM and their needs for the game and wants to allow ammo to be plentiful.

In either case, someone somewhere, in Rifts has put together an e-clip recharger. And they needed to have parts, equipment, tools, and skills. If a Player has all of that, I can't see how come they can't do the same.

[Damian Magecraft]

Then there's a second side. Side 'B" that seems to think that all you need is two wires and ANY NUCLEAR REACTOR ON THE PLANET. Attach wires to the nuclear reactor. Touch them to an eclip and you're good to go.

Part of the problem is that side A oversimplifies side B's position and then mocks the straw man they've created.

If anyone is actually interested in side B's position, PM me.

--flatline

The other part is Side A ignoring the fact that you do not in fact have to use expensive rechargers to recharge e-clips and a number of OCC are noted as being capable of doing so as well as several skills readily available to nearly anyone unless they're an anti-tech race or class. There is no 'one can only recharge e-clips from expensive rechargers' rule in the game.

But this does digress from the original point of the topic and there are plenty of (locked) threads one can find to see the various positions on the topic of e-clips and recharging them.

The impression i get from side B is they argue any joe shmoe can preform the said kitbash even though the rules of a permission based system state quite clearly that only selected individuals are capable of doing so.
There by trivializing those specified individuals.

[Damian Magecraft]

Then there's a second side. Side 'B" that seems to think that all you need is two wires and ANY NUCLEAR REACTOR ON THE PLANET. Attach wires to the nuclear reactor. Touch them to an eclip and you're good to go.

Part of the problem is that side A oversimplifies side B's position and then mocks the straw man they've created.

If anyone is actually interested in side B's position, PM me.

--flatline

I fall into camp B's position as well, and totally agree that I find the presentation of Camp B's position is over simplification. Maybe I actually fall into Camp C, where if you have the required skills, parts, and equipment, then yes you can recharge an e-clip. Of course this is all dependent upon the GM and their needs for the game and wants to allow ammo to be plentiful.

In either case, someone somewhere, in Rifts has put together an e-clip recharger. And they needed to have parts, equipment, tools, and skills. If a Player has all of that, I can't see how come they can't do the same.

you and I are camp C as far as I can tell.
if camp B does not mean what camp A thinks they do then perhaps camp B needs to better present their stance and stop trying to obfuscate the issue with superfluous math.

[Nightmask]

Then there's a second side. Side 'B" that seems to think that all you need is two wires and ANY NUCLEAR REACTOR ON THE PLANET. Attach wires to the nuclear reactor. Touch them to an eclip and you're good to go.

Part of the problem is that side A oversimplifies side B's position and then mocks the straw man they've created.

If anyone is actually interested in side B's position, PM me.

--flatline

I fall into camp B's position as well, and totally agree that I find the presentation of Camp B's position is over simplification. Maybe I actually fall into Camp C, where if you have the required skills, parts, and equipment, then yes you can recharge an e-clip. Of course this is all dependent upon the GM and their needs for the game and wants to allow ammo to be plentiful.

In either case, someone somewhere, in Rifts has put together an e-clip recharger. And they needed to have parts, equipment, tools, and skills. If a Player has all of that, I can't see how come they can't do the same.

Well you've something of a classification problem there, since it's not ammo it's energy and there are a variety of ways available to produce it in desirable levels to place into an E-clip. Your average PC group is going to have more than a few nuclear generators/power sources available to them and at least one guy who's the tech guy who'd be able to meet the requirements to set up the means of recharging the group's e-clips (although some favor mages with Sub-Particle Acceleration to recharge their e-clips since PPE is going to be at least if not more plentiful than what you have available from tech sources and recharge time is almost instant instead of minutes or hours).

[Mack]

For a group that said they weren't going to rehash this subject y'all are doing a good job of rehashing it.

[Nightmask]

Well we can at least put a stake in one of the persistent myths about E-Clips.
E-clips do not sort 0.1 GJ of energy and the Conversion Book 1 is not a 'typo' that is correctable from 1GW to 1GJ.
This is provable since we demonstrated that 10,000 Car Batteries is not 1GJ....thus what ever the 1GW was supposed to be it can't be 1GJ since that is not a valid solution.
It could be a value between 2GJ and 6.5GJ.
But it is not 1

Yes, fine, we can all agree that the figures need adjusted upwards accordingly based on the updated data on how much energy is stored in roughly 10k of car batteries from the 80s when the original write-ups were done. So the times required to recharge an e-clip need increased by a factor of 2 to 6.5 depending on where in that range you choose to settle.