Guns in hand to hand combat

[Soldier of Od]

This isn't a questions about special martial arts forms that incorporate firearms, just a query about how viable it is to use a gun on an opponent with whom you are engaged in hand to hand combat.

For instance: an NPC armed with only a vibro-blade jumps out on a PC armed with an energy rifle or pistol and tries to stab them. Is there anything preventing the PC from retailiating with their firearm at point blank range? Might it be too difficult to get off an accurate shot while under attack from the knife-wielder? Or might it be even easier? Does it matter what type of firearm the character is armed with? What about built-in bionic weapons?

I was mulling over the viability of the tactic of 'closing the gap' during a firefight and trying to force an opponent into hand to hand combat.

Is this covered in any of the Rifts books? I couldn't find anything. If not, what are your thoughts on the matter?

Thanks.

[flatline]

I'm not aware of any rules that cover it.

That said, if someone is within knife range of you and you have a rifle, your only use for the rifle is as a blunt weapon simply because they're closer to you than the end of the barrel would be.

Pistols (and maybe carbines) might still be useful, but I don't really have any suggestions game mechanics.

If they're grappling with you, then a pistol can only be used if the hand that's holding it isn't being grappled.

[eliakon]

Rules As Written? No there is nothing specifically stopping you from using that energy rifle to deal with the guy that just jumped out and stabbed you.

Key word there is that RAW though. The GM is perfectly with in their rights to say "No sorry, he's to close you cant shoot him with your rifle your going to have to do something else." That is why we have GMs after all, to adjucate situations that are not covered by the rules.

[Alrik Vas]

You can use Combat ranges like N&SS, rifter 30 has rules as well, they can be applied to firearms in various melee ranges. Though the rules don't talk about firearms specifically.

[dragonfett]

RAW there is nothing that I am aware of that prohibits the use of firearms in melee combat, although the (presumable) target is allowed to roll a parry if I am not mistaken.

In real life however, civilian and military police are trained in the "21 step" rule where if a perpetrator is within 21 steps of you with a knife out, because the officer's response time to an assailant who has a knife out is roughly about the time it takes the assailant to cover about 21 steps. If the assailant is within 21 steps to them, they are supposed to engage in melee rather than risk trying to go for their sidearm.

[SpiritInterface]

Close combat ranges have always been screwed up, and not just in rifts. A knife fighter vs a swordsman is at a distinct disadvantage, and against a skilled person with a pole arm should run.

Since rifts doesn't differentiate an arm or leg from main body a rifle is just as dangerous as a pistol even in a grapple.

[Soldier of Od]

Thanks for all your responses so far. I didn't think of the fact that the knife wielder could parry the gunshot. Thanks for that.

[Jefffar]

Parry, Entangle and Disarm all suddenly become options once the fight becomes melee. Bayonets, buttstokes and pistol whips also become a thing though.

I might add a wild shooting penalty for trying to use a longarm to make shots in melee.

[Alrik Vas]

That's probably for the best, Jefffar. Rifle at close range shooting is tricky.

[Nox Equites]

You could base the penalties to hit in normal usage on the size of the weapon. -2 for pistols. -4 for SMG or bullpup. -6 for rifle sized weapons. And railguns or hvy weapons are just a no go. Maybe add a close quarters battle skill to reduce penalties.

[guardiandashi]

You could base the penalties to hit in normal usage on the size of the weapon. -2 for pistols. -4 for SMG or bullpup. -6 for rifle sized weapons. And railguns or hvy weapons are just a no go. Maybe add a close quarters battle skill to reduce penalties.

I wouldn't completely rule out railguns....
heck one of the "best" railguns would be devastatingly effective if you could get it into action and I had a character who used it that way a couple times, of course she had ninjitsu from ninjas and superspies so I think she used one of the "special" combo moves to bring it to bear, like the "backflip" to gain a little distance, then shemarrian railgun, but again that was a special case.

the thing to remember is that most railguns are built more like "souped up" machineguns so if you could reasonably do it with the machine gun you can do it with a similar railgun.

[flatline]

How do you do a backflip if the weapon you're holding is longer than you are tall?

Or am I thinking of the wrong railgun?

[Nightmask]

How do you do a backflip if the weapon you're holding is longer than you are tall?

Or am I thinking of the wrong railgun?

Wouldn't it depend on how much longer it is than you?

[Shark_Force]

also iirc most railguns weigh something like 100 pounds when you include the power supply, and possibly more with ammo. maybe a cyborg or supernaturally strong individual could do a backflip with one, but I doubt there are many unaugmented humans that could do it.

[Alrik Vas]

NG makes the R-50, which is basically a railgun carbine. Uses large, solid rounds instead of bursts. Its powered by e-clips.

[dragonfett]

NG makes the R-50, which is basically a railgun carbine. Uses large, solid rounds instead of bursts. Its powered by e-clips.

What book is that in?

[guardiandashi]

How do you do a backflip if the weapon you're holding is longer than you are tall?

Or am I thinking of the wrong railgun?

Wouldn't it depend on how much longer it is than you?

the char in question was ~6ft tall in her bare feet, and over 6'8" in armor. She also started out with over a 24 str and close to 30 PP so at the upper limits of "hero" stats. Later on she had "events happen" that made her stats even more out there.

[Alrik Vas]

NG makes the R-50, which is basically a railgun carbine. Uses large, solid rounds instead of bursts. Its powered by e-clips.

What book is that in?

Merc Ops. Shoulda got a reprint in the NG books.

[dragonfett]

NG makes the R-50, which is basically a railgun carbine. Uses large, solid rounds instead of bursts. Its powered by e-clips.

What book is that in?

Merc Ops. Shoulda got a reprint in the NG books.

Thought so, thanks.

[kronos]

You could base the penalties to hit in normal usage on the size of the weapon. -2 for pistols. -4 for SMG or bullpup. -6 for rifle sized weapons. And railguns or hvy weapons are just a no go. Maybe add a close quarters battle skill to reduce penalties.

I've used house rules like this. Also weapons built into arms could be used in melee as long as they didn't stick out past the arm.
So the new NG power armour or robots (forget the name off but the dog headed ones) could punch something with one attack and next use arm gun. In such situation, the penalties to the ranged weapon would be halved or negated or just a straight roll as the weapon barrel is right up against the target.

[kaid]

This isn't a questions about special martial arts forms that incorporate firearms, just a query about how viable it is to use a gun on an opponent with whom you are engaged in hand to hand combat.

For instance: an NPC armed with only a vibro-blade jumps out on a PC armed with an energy rifle or pistol and tries to stab them. Is there anything preventing the PC from retailiating with their firearm at point blank range? Might it be too difficult to get off an accurate shot while under attack from the knife-wielder? Or might it be even easier? Does it matter what type of firearm the character is armed with? What about built-in bionic weapons?

I was mulling over the viability of the tactic of 'closing the gap' during a firefight and trying to force an opponent into hand to hand combat.

Is this covered in any of the Rifts books? I couldn't find anything. If not, what are your thoughts on the matter?

Thanks.

There are no actual penalties for firing a gun in hand to hand but once you get somebody into hand to hand it opens up things like grappling/disarming or other wise doing unkind things to whatever limb is unlucky enough to be holding a gun. Closing to melee is pretty common for enhanced warriors like juicers or men of magic as many men of magic are poorer at range than they are up in the thick of it which seems odd but a lot of the best damaging combat magic is pretty short range/melee oriented.

[tsh77769]

A few notes about using handguns or long guns as blunt melee weapons in hand to hand from real life.

Handguns...

What NOT to do:In the movies you frequently see people grab the gun by the barrel and hit someone with the grip. DO NOT DO THAT! First you would have to let go of and completely re-grip the gun. Second, now it is pointing at you. Third it is now easier to be taken from you. Lastly, you may also cause a magazine over insertion that could tie up the gun badly.

What you SHOULD do: Maintain a regular grip with your trigger finger away from the trigger and outside the trigger guard, alongside the frame or slide. You are not shooting so stay away from the trigger. This also helps keep your finger from getting broken or ripped off if the opposition pulls a disarm move.

Strikes: Use a linear striking motion very similar to a punch to strike with the muzzle of the weapon (beware that your weapon may come out of battery). Use a ridge-hand type motion to strike with the top of the slide. Use a chopping or hammer fist style motion to strike with the underside of the handgun in front of the trigger guard (sometimes called the dustcover), this is where the accessory/flashlight/laser rail
is on so equipped handguns.

Parrying: See above.

Long-guns...

What NOT to do: In the movies you frequently see people grab the long gun by the barrel and use it as a club. DO NOT DO THAT (see above)!

What you SHOULD do: Use the tip of the barrel like the tip of a spear in linear thrusting attacks. No it isn't the same but it still hurts like hell. MOST IMPORTANTLY, you do NOT want to put side loads on barrels as that is a great way to bend and damage or ruin them. Use the butt-stock in linear attacks by striking with the part that goes on your shoulder when shooting. Again, this helps reduce the opportunity for damaging the stock (especially important for AR type rifles).

Parrying. Use the whole thing if you have to but avoid damaging sensitive areas (such as the gas tubes on AR's).

Other notes: Some pistols have fixed barrels but most have moving (usually tilting) barrels. If the gun has a moving barrel as part of its design it can happen that you push the gun into someone and the slide goes out of battery and prevents firing. For that reason, if you must take a shot in direct contact, consider holding the slide closed by holding it with the same grip as if you were going to charge it (full fingers, not just a finger and thumb) but instead of pulling the slide back, you hold the slide still and pull back on the frame gently. This will allow you to fire the one round in the chamber but will prevent the gun from cycling another round. Therefore you will need to rack the action before firing again. The benefit of this is "better the devil you know (the simple easy to clear malfunction you expected because you caused it) than the one you don't (who knows what might happen or what kind of malfunction you may get or if the gun will even fire if you don't do this (you could even get some of their clothing stuck in the gun, putting her belly up for a while).

Good luck, I hope you never need any of that.

Tsh77769

[Immortalis]

I believe this was sort of covered in the original dodge penalties vs high tech firearms.

You suffer a -10 to dodge between 50 and 200 feet or so(I can't remember the number odd the top of my head) but only -5 within at 50 or none penalty in point blank range.

That makes it so there is actually an advantage for getting in close. You can still get shot though. I'm not sure if the ultimate edition kept the whole thing for simplicity sake though.

[eliakon]

I believe this was sort of covered in the original dodge penalties vs high tech firearms.

You suffer a -10 to dodge between 50 and 200 feet or so(I can't remember the number odd the top of my head) but only -5 within at 50 or none penalty in point blank range.

That makes it so there is actually an advantage for getting in close. You can still get shot though. I'm not sure if the ultimate edition kept the whole thing for simplicity sake though.

Unfortunately that's backwards. it was -10 if you were 400' and -6 if you were 500'+ (and if you were between the two? Who knows)
Which made it worse....
This was one reason they changed them (that and the fact that with the unmodified rule it was almost literally impossible to dodge since absolute best case was that they had rolled an 8 to hit...meaning that you had to roll a natural 18 to dodge.)

Now its -10 if the shooter is within 10' and -5 if they are with in 50'

Though it should be remembered that RAW if the target is moving (like in a fight) its -1 to strike, a further -1 for evasive action (like say...a fighter who is being defensive)

Also remember bullets and energy beams can not be parried.