Combat Question

[lostsoul336]

Why do fists do more damage than a gun? Am i doing something wrong? One of my characters has a P.S. of 23 and he consistantly does more damage with his hand to hand attacks than he does with a pistol or M16...am I doing something wrong?

[filo_clarke]

Palladium has several rulesets for determining the effects of firearms on living creatures. Using the basic rules in Dead Reign, then a 9x19mm lead bullet deals 2D6 damage, the same as a Karate Kick without any strength bonus. This means that an extraordinarily strong fighter, like the aforementioned PS 23 will be doing an extra +8 damage over the handgun. Bear in mind this is someone that is EXTRAORDINARILY strong, and using an attack that might, in a martial arts tournament, be used to break boards/bricks/bones. But I see your point, that the bullet seems underpowered. However consider the following:

Optional rules in the Compendium of Modern Weapons offer things like Penetration Value, Tissue Damage, Shock and Trauma, and Blood Loss. Take the same example from above. The fighter will deal 19 points of damage on a maximum strength impact (not counting Criticals or Death Blow). Whereas the maximum a 9x19mm Lead Ball will inflict:
12 points of damage, the victim loses ALL his attacks that round and the next, there is a 50% chance of dropping whatever he was holding, he recovers from the shock in 20-30 seconds, but during that time his Skill performance is -30% and his Spd is -20%, plus he is losing 1 point of damage per minute until his wounds are treated (this Blood Loss id doubled if the bullet was a Hollow Point). Now he can save vs.Shock 18+ with PE bonuses, and suffer these penalties for only half the time, but the penalties are still there.

Remember that many firearms can fire multiple times in a single attack, doing either a Burst or a Spray. This means that you could hit your target for X2 to X10 damage or hit multiple opponents at the same time for the damage listed above.

Remember too that firearms inflict full damage to SDC and half damage to Hit Points at Point Blank range. Meaning if he is within 15 feet of the target, the damage would be 12 SDC and 6 HP! Now that's better than the Hand to Hand attack.

These rules provide something extra that simple hand to hand attacks don't, and that makes up for their apparent lack of "damage" versus a punch or kick from an extraordinarily strong opponent. So while I agree that hand to hand attacks in Palladium are far more damaging than they should be, I think that if you want a grittier and more lethal firearm system, the rules exist to provide it. Basically Palladium has given you the option of how "heroic" you want the combatants to be.

[Greyaxe]

You are not doing anything wrong. A PS of 23 is "high" and inflicts a lot of damage when you get punched. Think Arnold Schwarzenegger punching you full force. It will do a lot of damage. if you want to add some realism to your game simply have guns do HP damage. Be prepared to roll up a LOT of characters.

[lostsoul336]

Palladium has several rulesets for determining the effects of firearms on living creatures. Using the basic rules in Dead Reign, then a 9x19mm lead bullet deals 2D6 damage, the same as a Karate Kick without any strength bonus. This means that an extraordinarily strong fighter, like the aforementioned PS 23 will be doing an extra +8 damage over the handgun. Bear in mind this is someone that is EXTRAORDINARILY strong, and using an attack that might, in a martial arts tournament, be used to break boards/bricks/bones. But I see your point, that the bullet seems underpowered. However consider the following:

Optional rules in the Compendium of Modern Weapons offer things like Penetration Value, Tissue Damage, Shock and Trauma, and Blood Loss. Take the same example from above. The fighter will deal 19 points of damage on a maximum strength impact (not counting Criticals or Death Blow). Whereas the maximum a 9x19mm Lead Ball will inflict:
12 points of damage, the victim loses ALL his attacks that round and the next, there is a 50% chance of dropping whatever he was holding, he recovers from the shock in 20-30 seconds, but during that time his Skill performance is -30% and his Spd is -20%, plus he is losing 1 point of damage per minute until his wounds are treated (this Blood Loss id doubled if the bullet was a Hollow Point). Now he can save vs.Shock 18+ with PE bonuses, and suffer these penalties for only half the time, but the penalties are still there.

Remember that many firearms can fire multiple times in a single attack, doing either a Burst or a Spray. This means that you could hit your target for X2 to X10 damage or hit multiple opponents at the same time for the damage listed above.

Remember too that firearms inflict full damage to SDC and half damage to Hit Points at Point Blank range. Meaning if he is within 15 feet of the target, the damage would be 12 SDC and 6 HP! Now that's better than the Hand to Hand attack.

These rules provide something extra that simple hand to hand attacks don't, and that makes up for their apparent lack of "damage" versus a punch or kick from an extraordinarily strong opponent. So while I agree that hand to hand attacks in Palladium are far more damaging than they should be, I think that if you want a grittier and more lethal firearm system, the rules exist to provide it. Basically Palladium has given you the option of how "heroic" you want the combatants to be.

I have that book and am actually using it, I didn't know it had those rules in it. Guess I am going to have to read it because I like those alternate rules better.

[Tor]

plus he is losing 1 point of damage per minute until his wounds are treated (this Blood Loss id doubled if the bullet was a Hollow Point).

Also worth noting that a part of PF mentions you lose 1 HP per melee round, rather than minute (the part under magical bandages) so if that is Megaversally incorporated, people lose 5 HP per minute, if one considers it supplemental. Plus there's additional blood loss from internal bleeding if you drop under 30%, which could also be considered a cumulative penalty.

You are not doing anything wrong. A PS of 23 is "high" and inflicts a lot of damage when you get punched. Think Arnold Schwarzenegger punching you full force. It will do a lot of damage.

This would have made a lot more sense 35-50 years ago.

[Grell]

You are not doing anything wrong. A PS of 23 is "high" and inflicts a lot of damage when you get punched. Think Arnold Schwarzenegger punching you full force. It will do a lot of damage. if you want to add some realism to your game simply have guns do HP damage. Be prepared to roll up a LOT of characters.

I've done this and characters will drop like flies. I've also ran games where blood loss also goes direct off of Hit Points as well.

It should be mentioned that in Dead Reign that punching a zombie (or kicking) does 1/2 damage as do stabbing/piercing attacks, explosives and low caliber firearms. But in application, the most effective zombie killing machine I've seen is a player character with a P.S. of 25 and a crowbar.

[Tor]

Actually punches/kicks do 1/5, and also worth noting those low-cal guns do 1/10 to head/neck so are better for torso/limb shots.

So assuming we round down fractions, an average punch will never hurt a zombie High PS and critical rolls being an exception

[Grell]

With those adjustments even exceptional P.S. and the occasional crit are hardly worth the effort, not that it would stop a player from trying. My favorite doomed tactic was when one of my players tried to kill a zombie with a pair of pants. I tried to warn the guy that there were better ways to kill a zombie and that he had multiple firearms and blunt weapons on his person to use, but he wanted to try his idea out anyways. As you can imagine, hilarity ensued. Not for the NPC they were trying to save, however.

[Tor]

Can always throw on a pair of brass knucks, that presumably lets you avoid the damage-fraction.

Unsure regarding sap gloves.

[eliakon]

Can always throw on a pair of brass knucks, that presumably lets you avoid the damage-fraction.

Unsure regarding sap gloves.

Actually since a brass knuckle is still a 'punch' it would still be reduced, though you do get the bonus damage for what that's worth.

[Tor]

Brass knuck damage isn't worded as a bonus like with sap gloves though, it actually gets it own die roll, much like using a blunt weapon such as a black jack.

For that reason I believe it qualifies as a blunt object and would not suffer the penalty. Although I don't think any WP skills would apply to it, since it probably falls under the Misc Weapons category.

[say652]

Um brass knuckles are a tekko. Or used with wp.knife bonuses. You basically hilt punch the crap out of people. And on a side note. Who else has had their hands scarred the fudge up from those stupid finger peeling torture devices that inflict just as damage to your hands as they do to that poor slob that called you a faerie. Imma elf dammit two different things.

[say652]

Um brass knuckles are a tekko. Or used with wp.knife bonuses. You basically hilt punch the crap out of people. And on a side note. Who else has had their hands scarred the fudge up from those stupid finger peeling torture devices that inflict just as damage to your hands as they do to that poor slob that called you a faerie. Imma elf dammit two different things.

[say652]

Um brass knuckles are a tekko. Or used with wp.knife bonuses. You basically hilt punch the crap out of people. And on a side note. Who else has had their hands scarred the fudge up from those stupid finger peeling torture devices that inflict just as damage to your hands as they do to that poor slob that called you a faerie. Imma elf dammit two different things.

[filo_clarke]

Brass knuck damage isn't worded as a bonus like with sap gloves though, it actually gets it own die roll, much like using a blunt weapon such as a black jack.

For that reason I believe it qualifies as a blunt object and would not suffer the penalty. Although I don't think any WP skills would apply to it, since it probably falls under the Misc Weapons category.

I can see your point, but I think the fact that it included the words "+ punch damage + PS bonus (if any)" is what sways me in the other direction. We know that Zombies suffer only 20% from punches, so the wording is a little confusing. I am led to believe that the damage from brass knuckled on Zombies is "1D6 + 20% of punch damage + full PS damage bonus". So you don't lose the damage bonus from PS, because it is still a blunt weapon, but you only gain 20% from the punch itself, because we know Zombies are resistant to that type of damage.

[Tor]

Hm... *checks book* I believe you are right.

Dead Reign page 114 has this 'plus punch' notation.

I was going based on my memory of Brass Knucks formed from preceding SDC systems, in this case I believe HU2p342 which said nothing about stacking with punch. So it seems DR boosted it a bit.

This seems like a sensible thing to do. They should be better than sap gloves but without punch-stacking, sap gloves were actually better. Even with the simplest punches, d4+2 is better than d6.