Guys... the double/triple posts... please stop. It's REALLY hard to read.
Also I think any further discussion about Collins/Polanski might be more appropriate for Sound Off than here? It's one thing to discuss works, but to go into discussing authors is beyond the scope.
I would think regardless of what people's opinions are though, that both are too recent for their works to be public domain and as such could not be freely incorporated without worrying about copyright issues.
Rappanui wrote:the king of yellow is an important figure in atlantean mythology. they have several dieties, Such as those Deities they found around santorini and Crete.
Reminds me that I need to finish the last few episodes to True Detective. Do you think this inspired Steven King's "Crimson King" to some degree?
Also you just made CG very grimdark for me bro.
Rappanui wrote:Mythologically, it includes a Number of Gods who originate from Atlantis, Sehkmet, Viracocha, Bast, Ra, Poseidon, Atlas, Kulkulkan... It seems rife for Rifts CB 2 Merger.
I thought Bast+Ra+Sehkmet were Egypian, Atlas+Poseidon were Greek, Viracocha was Inca, and the Kukulcan we have in the Aztecs. Did not know there was this Pantheon overlap. Would be interesting to have some kind of 'Atlantis alliance' between various members of Pantheons for mysterious reasons.
Kind of reminds me of Marvel's Illuminati, how single members of various factions conspire to manipulate events even though they're members of their own respective groups.
Razorwing wrote:Not to derail this thread too much, but my analogy to Superman's evolution over the years is quite accurate.
When first concieved, his powers were very limited... mostly to super strength which allowed him to lift a car, run fast and leap about 1/8 mile. He also had dense flesh that couldn't be pirced by anything less than an artilery shell. There was no vision based powers and he wasn't from another planet yet (though he was a foundling). Even his signature costume was based on the circus performer costumes of the late 19th early 20th centuries.
It wasn't until the very first animated series that he recieved his first power boost... the ability to actually fly... which was followed by other boosts to his powers, including god-like strength, his vision powers and more. Not all the powers he was given were kept... and even those he was given were eventually scaled back so that writers could provide him with realistic challenges. All of these changes to the character are what we call "retcons" as they changed the character's abilities after he already been given them. Even the source of his power has evolved from being soully based on his Kryptonian herritage, to being based on Krypton's enviroment to now being based on a combination of Kryptonian herritage and Earth's Enviroment (including Earth's Yellow sun). Even his infamous vulnerability to Kryptonite was a retcon introduced many years later... and that too has been changed many times to include many different types that affect him in different ways and then back to a single type.
Yes, the core of the character is now fairly stable, with few retcons to his abilities... but they were there in the early years of his creation. In fact, the very original concept had him as a villain with mental powers... though that was never expanded upon past one story in 1933.
Yes, and if you take a gander at the DC comics wiki, it clearly explains that these are Supermen existing in DIFFERENT UNIVERSES. Some of which were wiped out. Which does happen (just ask the Nightlords)
Razorwing wrote:So what does this have to do with Nightbane? Concepts change and evolve as new writers deal with the problems of the original concept and add their own ideas to the mix. Carella may have had his own ideas as to what the Nightbane would eventually be, but that what may have been is irrelivant.
Yeah... no.
You don't just get to declare Carella's work irrelevant.
His vision doesn't limit new works of Nightbane, but his will always be relevant. The 'first superman', so to speak. Could a newer Nightbane be potentially better known or more popular? Sure, but comparisons will still be made, and history won't change.
Razorwing wrote:When I hear the name Nightspwan, I don't see the connection to the Nightland, the Reshapers or anything noble about these beings. To me that name suggest a monster or demon created by the night to plague humanity... a being just as monsterous and dangerous as the vampires and Nightlords themselves.
Well that's just silly. It only suggests this because you view the Night and the Nightlands as evil things, because that's all 'Night' implies. 'Spawn' simply means 'offspring', there's nothing sinister about it. McFarlane's was sinister because it was short for HELL spawn, and it was the 'hell' that made it sinister.
The 'Night'lands only seem sinister because we associate them with the Lords and Princes who include 'Night' in their titles. But that is a conquerered title, and their realm is a conquered land. The Nightlords are human sorcerers from earth who invaded and conquered that land, just as they are doing to ours.
Razorwing wrote:In fact, with that name I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out they were created by the Nightlords... who else but the Lords of the Night would create the Spawn of the Night?
And this shows you haven't familiarized yourself too deeply with the canon...
Razorwing wrote:No... the name Nightbane suits them far better as most fight the creatures of the Night that plague humanity... creatures that are more suited to being called Nightspawn than the Nightbane.
I really don't know how to counter this... it's contra-indicated man. The Nightbane, if we call them that, should really be 'The Night-born who are the Bane of Evil" rather than "Bane of Night". Their history is tied to the Nightlands far before the Ba'al ever went there and dubbed themselves Nightlords.
Night != evil. Ugly != evil. That's the core concept of the RPG, that you get turned into monsters. Not all Nightbane are good, either. The core concept is not that you're an inherent evil-fighter. It's that you're inherently inhuman and linked to the Nightlands you can cross over into.
Nightbane don't Mirrorwalk spontaneously so that they can fight invaders from an alien dimension, they Mirrorwalk so they can RETURN HOME.
Razorwing wrote:As for being born of humans, I see this as a better method for how so many potential Nightbane could have been alive durring Dark Day. Fewer than ten thousand had Become before that incident... and then there was a sudden population explosion... so much so that those alive before hand were overwhelmed at the numbers... and that wasn't even all the potential Nightbane. We are talking about hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of Nightbane around the world (still a small number compared to the billions of humans). The idea that so many people had just spontaneously appeared as infants years before with no one noticing or questioning their appearance (and no investigations) seems to be stretching plausability a bit too far for me.
That's because you're not taking Latents into account.
Nightbane have always been appearing like this, but most of them have been Latents who don't awaken. So there was a number of them already in place to have Becomings.
As for why the large numbers and why people did not question or notice them: many did. You had recruiting organizations, elder Nightbane searching them out, sorcerers covering them up or enslaving them, Seekers, etc. They were coping, because the Latent>Awakened turnover was happening slowly at its usual rate, until Dark Day.
Another issue is that it's not entirely clear if they all appeared as babies, or if they appeared while older, like Dopplegangers or Reformed Demons, already having some level of maturity.
The world has runaways who don't get identified, people who might be assumed to have run from an abusive home, that's an example of how Nightbane could be taken in.
Razorwing wrote:That said, I do like the idea that Nightbane are connected to the Formless Ones (still not sure if the Reshapers are the same thing). However, instead of being spontaneously formed as originally concieved (and now retconed), I see it more as reincarnation... the soul of a Formless One being born into the body of a human child (yes... used the same idea from Babylon 5's Membari souls being born in human bodies... the Babylonian connection was too sweet not to hint at). This satisfies both the original concept of a connection to the Formless One's and the retcon that Nightbane are now born to human parents... and is not readily provable by any conventional means in the setting.
It connects Nightbane to humans in a way that the original RPG did not, I don't like that unnecessary deviation.