Rifts Melee Weapons - thoughts, etc.

[Bladesplint]

Just a quick question for everyone.

Does it seem to you that in Rifts, the melee weapon has become pushed into the background?

The reason I ask is due to recent trends in my gaming group. While they run through my adventures, I notice lately that almost all of them have been depending entirely on firearms of some kind. Rail guns, Boom cannon, MDC flechette hoses, etc. It isn't just firearms either; spells, mini missiles and range attacks seem to dominate. Which isn't entirely my gripe; range attacks are smart.

-BUT -

There have been more than a few occasions when a PC had a melee weapon; but it was usually some uber rune item that sucked souls, had a gazillion abilities of its own, and would teleport back to the user's hand if it ever got stolen. This was an uber-rare, legitimately gained item and I had no problem with him having it. While this is all really cool, it tends to have pushed minor magical melee weapons out of the limelight, and frankly, into the trash can. Unless a player finds a Rune Weapon like the one mentioned above, franky they aren't interested.

Example:

After an intense battle, my PC's won against some pretty tough enemies, but they paid their dues and were pretty battered up. As they went through the loot, I used a loot selection from two Rifts books. Rolling, two PC's were awarded minor magical weapons. One was an MDC axe that flamed on command and could be thrown up to 300 feet. Not bad, right?

The second PC rolled and was awarded a spear, crafted by a Mystic Kuznya (Mystic Russia); this one was made of MDC copper and did ridiculous damage against certain creature types (night hags, shadow beasts, things of the night). Again, not bad!

Both players shrugged, looked over their new treasure, and decided to leave them there! They didn't even bother to bring them along! They wanted GUNS. Don't get me wrong. Guns are cool! I like a good plasma cannon or Naruni auto rifle just as much as anyone else. But what is happening is the mystique of finding a secret treasure is being overwritten by the DPS of modern firearms. Gone is the coolness of claiming a custom magical melee weapon from a vanquished foe, maybe a one-of-a-kind item, with a rich history and construction method. Players just don't seem interested anymore.

So, I'm throwing this new topic out here to see if anyone else is having this trend.

If so, I wonder what we can do about it?



Thanks,


Blade

[Giant2005]

The average person is better off using a gun than a melee weapon - melee weapons require much more skill.
If I have Autododge and Paired Weapons, you wouldn't be able to pry my melee weapons out of my hand with a crowbar. The same goes if I am an OCC that allows me to parry ranged attacks with a melee weapon.
Your players are just built for guns. Although leaving the weapons behind is insane, they should at least sell them.

[Rimmerdal]

Sadly that is the case. Aside from the trusty 'pig-sticker' most melee weapons are not used by the average soldier. Its just the way of technology. But the melee weapon still has a place. CQB (Close Quarters Combat), Stealth missions and areas a a ranged weapon would be threat to the shooter are some areas they are used.

One thing you can do is have a being hurt by melee weapons of a certain type (such as say a spear made of a certain material). You could even have a very specific weapon only be able to injured or kill certain monsters permanently.

Certain beasts are vulnerable to certain metals and since some of the metals don't translate well to bullets or arrows..melee weapons are needed.

Weapons might also need to be blessed or under go a certain ritual to harm a creature permanently or even kill them. the shaman may only bless certain weapons they venerate as holy. and to the players surprise...the tribe does not call a railgun or plasma rifle holy. and the tribal shaman won't bless ammo either.

[Dog_O_War]

I changed the rules on governing melee weapons.

The first, simple thing to do is to apply applicable strength to melee weapons; allow strength to affect vibro weapons. For example, if an unarmed attack is capable of inflicting MD by virtue of strength, then allow it to stack with vibro-weaponry. You'll see players more willing to bust out the knives when they're strong.

Second thing to do is look at applicable reach; if you have a PA pilot wielding an eight-foot sword and he's fighting three man-sized guys, allow him to perform a kind of sweeping attack that would hit all three guys.

Your initial reaction to that may be that it's "OP", but consider that a mini-missile does an AoE attack at typically a mile away, so allowing a dude to hit three moobs with a giant sword isn't that far-fetched or "OP".

That should make melee weapons an attractive option.

[Alrik Vas]

I did the same thing, allowed PS bonuses on Melee. It means melee can way out-damage certain guns at points, but the whole point of firearms is range, that's their strength.

[kaid]

Well there is a reason our military does not tend to issue swords for active duty personal anymore. That said melee has its place in rifts certain types of supernatural monsters are pretty much immune to most ranged weapons and to kill them you have to take it to hand to hand.

If your groups are getting into a lot of fights in the wilderness in open areas where they have long lines of sight they would be crazy to not use guns tech or magic. Even for power armor/giant robots if you are facing supernatural strength there is a good chance the baddie is going to be hitting harder in melee than he is at range so for those it is best to stand off and use their powerful ranged weapons.

That is one thing I liked about the NG1 preview they are adding in more Mech designs that are solid fighters in hand to hand so it can be a valid first choice instead of last ditch all my ammo is out or weapons are busted choice.

It also depends on your group makeup. My characters tend to be operators/techno wizards things of that nature. My hand to hand combat skills are usually mediocre at best so I am MUCH better off trying to blast things at a range than I am to try to deal with them up close and personal. Now if you are a juicer or a Tman or something along those lines it is to your benefit to dive into close combat. In close you negate the opponents long range weapons and due to their training and physical prowess will typically rip their opponent in hand to hand combat limb from limb.

[kaid]

I did the same thing, allowed PS bonuses on Melee. It means melee can way out-damage certain guns at points, but the whole point of firearms is range, that's their strength.

I think this is unofficially the official ruling. I was curious about this when looking at the new vamp source book the bone jaguars can create lots of nifty bone weapons that on the low end seemed a bit pointless because the were jags did more in hand to hand than the weapons were capable of doing. I did a PM to the writer and he said it was intended that that damage be added to the normal punch damage of the user. This also is how the xiticix weapons work and that is in the cannon directly stated. Given those two points I have to assume adding physical melee punch damage if the wielder can do MD punches should be added to the weapon damage.

The only things I would not do this for are things like psi swords or light blades there is nothing physical there to put your weight behind so the psi or light force is what is doing all the work/damage.

[Giant2005]

I did the same thing, allowed PS bonuses on Melee. It means melee can way out-damage certain guns at points, but the whole point of firearms is range, that's their strength.

I think this is unofficially the official ruling. I was curious about this when looking at the new vamp source book the bone jaguars can create lots of nifty bone weapons that on the low end seemed a bit pointless because the were jags did more in hand to hand than the weapons were capable of doing. I did a PM to the writer and he said it was intended that that damage be added to the normal punch damage of the user. This also is how the xiticix weapons work and that is in the cannon directly stated. Given those two points I have to assume adding physical melee punch damage if the wielder can do MD punches should be added to the weapon damage.

The only things I would not do this for are things like psi swords or light blades there is nothing physical there to put your weight behind so the psi or light force is what is doing all the work/damage.

The RUE is pretty specific in stating that this isn't the case.

[kaid]

I did the same thing, allowed PS bonuses on Melee. It means melee can way out-damage certain guns at points, but the whole point of firearms is range, that's their strength.

I think this is unofficially the official ruling. I was curious about this when looking at the new vamp source book the bone jaguars can create lots of nifty bone weapons that on the low end seemed a bit pointless because the were jags did more in hand to hand than the weapons were capable of doing. I did a PM to the writer and he said it was intended that that damage be added to the normal punch damage of the user. This also is how the xiticix weapons work and that is in the cannon directly stated. Given those two points I have to assume adding physical melee punch damage if the wielder can do MD punches should be added to the weapon damage.

The only things I would not do this for are things like psi swords or light blades there is nothing physical there to put your weight behind so the psi or light force is what is doing all the work/damage.

The RUE is pretty specific in stating that this isn't the case.

Yup but we have text examples in the xiticix book of their weapons damage being in addition to the hand to hand punch damage. Then the addition of the bone jaguar stuff which heavily implies this to be the case and when I queried people involved in writing said that was the intention as well.

So that is why I say unofficially official. The RUE says one thing but later books seem to point to the opposite interpretation. It just seems odd if the RUE is correct that the xiticix melee weapons then become the best melee weapons in the game for supernatural strength possessors.

[Bladesplint]

I'd have to agree.

I rolled a Hunter Cat from SA (Achilles Republic RCC) and the supernatural PS bonus to HTH attacks would end up being ridiculous. All I had for his weapon was an MDC knife, which wasn't even a vibroblade, just a sharp piece of MDC armor from an Archon he'd killed. Had him roleplay crafting a shank from the armor, wrapped the handle in paracord, and used that as his primary weapon ever since. It only added a meager 2d6 or so, but it made playing that Hunter Cat something awesome when stacking it with SN punch damage.

Thing is, I wish more players got a kick out of this; seems they want to run and gun, which is fine - but when it gets to the point of shrugging off magical weapons, I could hardly believe it.

[Alrik Vas]

The difference is you guys are talking about adding punch damage, whereas i just allow the damage bonus, making the weapon the "punch", in the more traditional melee damage.

Now, if the character has supernatural strength, then they get the whole enchilada and rip people apart, like they should.

[taalismn]

Never bring an axe to a gunfight.
On the other hand, an empty gun at close quarters is a poorly constructed club(early flintlock pistols show this awareness in having heavy butts that could be used as bludgeons, especially in naval boarding actions).
And there's nothing so satisfying as the 'thunk' of your broadaxe as it cleaves skulls!

[Slight001]

In my Mystic Coalition campaign I've been introducing tech based melee weapons that are competitive with magical weaponry. In addition two of the PCs (using custom classes) include bonuses to melee combat and damage with melee weapons.

That I had to introduce custom weaponry and classes with unique abilities to overcome the weakness of melee weapons in this game (which with how the setting is written shouldn't be the case). While it shouldn't necessarily be easy for a meleeist to close with their target they should once in range be able to compete in DPM. One thing my players had to learn the hard way was that being in melee wasn't always the best idea, but neither was it the worst idea.

[kaid]

Also it comes down to the game setting and where the players group is trying to fight. If you get into a fight in the middle of a town chances are you are going to want to use melee weapons as shooting off in effect tank cannons in a crowded area tends to get ground upon.

As for whether to add the plus damage or the punch damage it is a hard call. Due to some of the stupid high strength numbers some super natural critters can get the flat + damage number is probably more OP than the punch damage number is. I do wish they would go and clarify this because the way they currently do it is very uneven and odd. Like the bone jaguars why would anybody go through the time and effort to forge a magical weapon that you carry around embedded in their own flesh that winds up doing a fraction of what their normal hand to hand damage is and why are the xiticix weird weapons that much better than anything else.

Still at least in the NG1 book there are signs that they are at least working towards making things more effective in melee. There are a few bot designs that are really good in hand to hand even vs super natural critters. I like the brusiers power punch that can be used to punt things 1d4x10 feet back and do serious damage while rocket fisting somebody.

There are so few mechs and power armor where it is really useful to go into HTH unless forced to do so due to lack of ammo or damage due to their melee damage being so meager nice to see some options.

[Incriptus]

Hell I give melee weapons every damage bonus they can get. Yeah, you can wrack up some big hits with your melee weapon but they have so many disadvantages I want them to have that advantage.

Alot more people have automatic parry than have automatic dodge. My experience (yours may be different) is that parry bonuses and strike bonuses are comparative (if not a slight advantage to the parry'er). While dodge bonuses are often superior to ranged strike bonues, those dodge bonuses suffer from debilitating penalties. It's easier for 6 (or 60) guys to have gun fire on you at once than have the same number of guys stab you. Just to name a few.

[Bill]

I combine MD hand to hand damage with MD melee weapon damage. SDC bonuses are simply insignificant in my opinion. That said, incapacitating attacks are quickly becoming the rule in my group. It's far faster to blind and paralyze most targets than to whittle away at their MDC.

[boxee]

Melee damage is lame for the most part. If they just added the damage bonus to melee you would actually see people going into hand to hand. As it stands ranged is the way to go. I also agree the rules in RUE are very clear that strength has nothing to do with mega damage attacks.

[slade the sniper]

Um...Gunblades

-STS

[Pepsi Jedi]

I can't remember the last rifts character I had that didn't have a light saber, sorry.. "Wilks Laser Sword" Failing that Vibro blades. As pointed out above, Unless you're fighting in the open in a field or in the sky (Not always even then) You have to be aware that your MD shots will travel for the full distance of their range, blowing through trees, buildings, people, babies, someone's cat, etc, right untill the end of their range.

I think one of the books gives the example of a guy trying to hunt a deer with a 'little' MD pistol. Ends up blowing the deer in half and taking out a tree that almost falls and kills him.

Most towns in rifts don't have MDC building materials. So if you get in an MD Gunfight in town same sort of stuff happens except you're splattering people and taking down buildings.

While lasers are silent (Unless you have the sound effects switched on) Many other weapons are not. Alot of our stuff have stealth elements, and cutting loose with rail guns or missiles or other big md stuff gets you seen (And again you have to worry about 'down range'. Pulling out a light saber... sorry. Wilks Laser sword... or a vibro blade and you can be sneaky. (Situational dependent. you don't' like up your light saber in the dark where others might see, but in a hallway or closed room where the light won't be a becon for incoming fire or tip off everyone and their mother).

As per the OP. The trick is to make them realize the usefulness of melee weapons. In the case they left the magical weapons behind, your next bad guys should have been the sort that only take damage from magical weapons or the ones indicated. If that's a bit too heavy handed (Some might think so, but I've never once met a player that would --leave behind-- magical weapons, unless he was hard core CS or something. Even they are likely to pack them away and turn them into the black vault. Most players, even if they didn't want hte magical weapon would take um and sell um)

Give the players situations where going in with MD heavies might get people killed. That's NOT heavy handed. It's pointed out in the MD rules section. A guy in the firefight misses his shot and the blast goes through the wall and blows the arm off a little girl. After the battle the 'Law' shows up to take the offender into custody for trial for blowing off a little girls arm, or setting the grainery on fire, or any of 1000 things.

Close quarters is another time you don't want people blasting away with rail guns or missiles or such. Send them on a tunnel crawl. just enough room for one man to walk and even then both his shoulders regularly scrape the tunnel walls, you open up in a place like that with rail guns and stuff and people are toast.

There's 1000 different ways to 'remind' players, that instantly and always going for military grade mega damage weapons might be a bad idea.

[The Oh So Amazing Nate]

You have to be aware that your MD shots will travel for the full distance of their range, blowing through trees, buildings, people, babies, someone's cat, etc, right untill the end of their range.

Oh sweet Jebus... I'm unloading the full clip in a fiery storm of blazing death from now on. F! your cat random NPC!

Give the players situations where going in with MD heavies might get people killed. That's NOT heavy handed. It's pointed out in the MD rules section. A guy in the firefight misses his shot and the blast goes through the wall and blows the arm off a little girl. After the battle the 'Law' shows up to take the offender into custody for trial for blowing off a little girls arm, or setting the grainery on fire, or any of 1000 things.

The first time I read this I thought it said "or setting the gravity on fire". Which made me think, "oh holy hell. Gravity is on fire this is bad." Then I laughed.

Close quarters is another time you don't want people blasting away with rail guns or missiles or such. Send them on a tunnel crawl. just enough room for one man to walk and even then both his shoulders regularly scrape the tunnel walls, you open up in a place like that with rail guns and stuff and people are toast.

In this instance. I'm very interested to know what happens when a rail gun/boom gun is fired in a tunnel? What happens to the people behind the round? What happens to anything in front of the round? Is there a pressure wave that suck those behind forward? Does the same wave collapse the tunnel as the round passes (vacuum effect)? Does the pressure wave (if there is one) sweep up all the debris and detritus in the tunnel and shove it forward as it progresses?

[Eclipse]

Yeah, spring some close-up traps and ambushes e.g. pit traps, cave-ins, ruins, tunnels etc. Utilise unusual npc maneuverability e.g. ability to climb on a sheer surface. And track ammo/restrict obtaining it outside of a city etc.. if you put them up against enough melee opponents, they're going to run out of bullets/e-clips.

[Pepsi Jedi]

You don't even have to be fully overt. Send them into a ruin of a city or something. Have the object they're looking for or bad guys they're hunting be hiding in the 300 year old wrecked buildings left over from pre-rifts. First combat they get in, have a few of the stray shots. (( Doesn't even have to be your group. Have a bad guy miss and take out a wall)) Punch holes in the building and the entire building they're standing in quiver and shake. Maybe lurch a few degrees (Or a LOT of degrees) To one side. Let them know that doing more such damage to the structure could bring it down on them. This is most effective about 20 or stories up. MD body armor is great, but it'll mean a slow death if you're all buried under tons and tons and tons of building.

You don't have to do this sort of thing 'every' time. A few times where going on spheres to the wall and resulting consequences will make your players pause and go 'Man. that slab fell on my pretty power armor and it costs thousands to repair the damage... If I'd only used a vibroblade or... you know.. that magical axe I left laying in the dirt.. I'd have saved alot of money."

Another good way to enforce such is 'distance'. If your group is away from 'base' and handy dandy recharging stations, and or ammo supply, make that signifigant. "No Resupply" Situations add some pressure for smart thinking. Quick way to enforce this is 'D-shifting'. It happens on Rifts earth. more in some places but can happen anywhere. You're walking along, there's a crackle in the air and the entire square mile you're walking on is tossed into another dimension.

Now they're cut off from ammo supplies and have to conserve ammo. Add in some baddies that have come to see what the heck is going on and suddenly "FULL AUTO ALL THE WAY!! ROCK AND ROLL BABY" Becomes "Oh crap.. we don't know when, IF EVER we'll get back to earth.. we better conserve ammo.' and the easiest way to conserve ammo in combat, is to use melee weapons. Add in bad guys that aren't sniping from lofty building tops themselves. I.E. bad guys with melee weapons and it hammers it home.

Players ignore it? That's fine. Tell them "You're on an alien planet." Hand them each an index card, or keep track your self. "Chart every shot, every blast, every pull of the trigger. hit or miss. Hash marks. four then one crossing them" This will REALLY hammer it home. Most players will start paying more attention if they have to do such.

They STILL don't? and just go blasting away? Well that's great. You have an entire dimension of baddies. After they mow down the first 20 or so (( Or 200 or so depending on how many spare clips they have) They'll eventually run out.... then here come the 'elite' fighters, having sent in the slackers and weaklings as cannon fodder. What do you have left? Awwww is your boom gun dry? All your laser rifles going click click and no pew pew? You gonna throw in the towel and die, or are you going to draw that vibro blade and wade on in there and make the other guy die instead?

And again this doesn't have to be an 'every situation/every game' sort of thing. Just enough till your players don't look at Melee weapons and spit and leave them laying on the ground. A few of the above and they're going to learn.. or they'll die. That's the price of the game.

[ShadowLogan]

@Bladesplint
Perhaps to get them to reconsider melee weapons you should consider:
-encountering NPCs that excel at Melee Combat through skills/abilities/equipment (ex. A Burster using Super-Fuel Flame on a TW-Flaming Sword could be doing 4d6x10MD damage, or a Juicer/Crazy with Battlefury Blades, etc) that they have to engage at close range in an ambush situation (likely the they are the ones being ambushed).
-as mentioned previously have consequences for shots that miss/pass through the enemy and continue on (explosive material, compromise structural integrity, hit bystanders, etc)
-have them CAPTURE a high value target(s), where DPS isn't going to help like melee capacity
-put them against creatures that can only be harmed by certain materials (old RMB Random Monster Tables, though you might have to improvise something here) that aren't common to range weapons or through some magic/SN fluke can not be harmed by ranged/AOE attacks (or they regenerate the damage insanely fast).

[Giant2005]

Beings with Supernatural or Robotic Strength also kick some serious butt with a Neural Weapon in their hands.

[kaid]

I combine MD hand to hand damage with MD melee weapon damage. SDC bonuses are simply insignificant in my opinion. That said, incapacitating attacks are quickly becoming the rule in my group. It's far faster to blind and paralyze most targets than to whittle away at their MDC.

Yup this is the single biggest advantage to psi classes and magic users. They have really good ways of debilitating a target without actually killing it. Get lucky and land one bio manipulation and bang that guy is out of the fight. While many complain about magic and psy powers being short ranged and lack luster damage wise both of these specialties have great ways to immobilize targets without having to kill them.

It is one reason I like one of the new NG occ the robot control specialist. They are basically like an operator but more oriented to disabling/destroying robots/drones/power armor. They have some really good options of psionics one is a great mix of the telemechanics powers for disabling tech and bio manipulation for taking out their controllers. That gives you a pretty fun support character who starts with the ability to drive/operate robots/power armor and is great at disabling foes both tech and organic.

[kaid]

Beings with Supernatural or Robotic Strength also kick some serious butt with a Neural Weapon in their hands.

I wish neural weapons worked on supernatural critters. I love the concept of neural weapons but unless you are in a city and not one that allows people to prance around in armor it is tough to find a target they will work on.

[kaid]

I can't remember the last rifts character I had that didn't have a light saber, sorry.. "Wilks Laser Sword" Failing that Vibro blades. As pointed out above, Unless you're fighting in the open in a field or in the sky (Not always even then) You have to be aware that your MD shots will travel for the full distance of their range, blowing through trees, buildings, people, babies, someone's cat, etc, right untill the end of their range.

I think one of the books gives the example of a guy trying to hunt a deer with a 'little' MD pistol. Ends up blowing the deer in half and taking out a tree that almost falls and kills him.

Most towns in rifts don't have MDC building materials. So if you get in an MD Gunfight in town same sort of stuff happens except you're splattering people and taking down buildings.

While lasers are silent (Unless you have the sound effects switched on) Many other weapons are not. Alot of our stuff have stealth elements, and cutting loose with rail guns or missiles or other big md stuff gets you seen (And again you have to worry about 'down range'. Pulling out a light saber... sorry. Wilks Laser sword... or a vibro blade and you can be sneaky. (Situational dependent. you don't' like up your light saber in the dark where others might see, but in a hallway or closed room where the light won't be a becon for incoming fire or tip off everyone and their mother).

As per the OP. The trick is to make them realize the usefulness of melee weapons. In the case they left the magical weapons behind, your next bad guys should have been the sort that only take damage from magical weapons or the ones indicated. If that's a bit too heavy handed (Some might think so, but I've never once met a player that would --leave behind-- magical weapons, unless he was hard core CS or something. Even they are likely to pack them away and turn them into the black vault. Most players, even if they didn't want hte magical weapon would take um and sell um)

Give the players situations where going in with MD heavies might get people killed. That's NOT heavy handed. It's pointed out in the MD rules section. A guy in the firefight misses his shot and the blast goes through the wall and blows the arm off a little girl. After the battle the 'Law' shows up to take the offender into custody for trial for blowing off a little girls arm, or setting the grainery on fire, or any of 1000 things.

Close quarters is another time you don't want people blasting away with rail guns or missiles or such. Send them on a tunnel crawl. just enough room for one man to walk and even then both his shoulders regularly scrape the tunnel walls, you open up in a place like that with rail guns and stuff and people are toast.

There's 1000 different ways to 'remind' players, that instantly and always going for military grade mega damage weapons might be a bad idea.

I fully agree with this it is to easy for players to forget their 1d6 damage laser with its puny damage is basically doing damage similar to a SDC rocket launcher. Even the wimpiest of MDC pistols is basically a tank cannon to any SDC material in the area. That is one of the biggest advantages of melee combat you know you are not going to blow up something you don't want blown up. Now if you are out in the open and have clear lines of sight then sure no problem but a MDC gunfight in a forrest can quickly end with everybody covered under a pile of burning trees.

[kaid]

You have to be aware that your MD shots will travel for the full distance of their range, blowing through trees, buildings, people, babies, someone's cat, etc, right untill the end of their range.

Oh sweet Jebus... I'm unloading the full clip in a fiery storm of blazing death from now on. F! your cat random NPC!

Give the players situations where going in with MD heavies might get people killed. That's NOT heavy handed. It's pointed out in the MD rules section. A guy in the firefight misses his shot and the blast goes through the wall and blows the arm off a little girl. After the battle the 'Law' shows up to take the offender into custody for trial for blowing off a little girls arm, or setting the grainery on fire, or any of 1000 things.

The first time I read this I thought it said "or setting the gravity on fire". Which made me think, "oh holy hell. Gravity is on fire this is bad." Then I laughed.

Close quarters is another time you don't want people blasting away with rail guns or missiles or such. Send them on a tunnel crawl. just enough room for one man to walk and even then both his shoulders regularly scrape the tunnel walls, you open up in a place like that with rail guns and stuff and people are toast.

In this instance. I'm very interested to know what happens when a rail gun/boom gun is fired in a tunnel? What happens to the people behind the round? What happens to anything in front of the round? Is there a pressure wave that suck those behind forward? Does the same wave collapse the tunnel as the round passes (vacuum effect)? Does the pressure wave (if there is one) sweep up all the debris and detritus in the tunnel and shove it forward as it progresses?

Best spell ever gravity to fire!

[Morik]

One of the best uses of melee weapons I've seen is to target the rifles of the Npc's. Most guns only have about 30-45 m.d.c. a couple of dual strikes with flaming swords will destroy their main weapons. If they keep reaching for weapons cut off their hands or just hold them down.

A juicer/crazy with two blades is TERRIFYING in melee range.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Not trying to be nitpicky but you can shoot a gun too. It's not exclusively a melee weapon thing. When Glitterboys make an appearance, everyone targets the boom gun, asap.

[Tor]

Does it seem to you that in Rifts, the melee weapon has become pushed into the background?

For common folk, definitely. Melee weapons are often a backup for when you're surprised in close range, or if you're able to ambush an enemy or close range with them quickly.

For high-tier folk though, melee weapons are clearly the weapons of gods and in damage-per-time eclipse anything that magic can dish out, primarily due to stacking with the huge supernatural PS such things have.

For top-tier guys this even goes past things like cruise missiles. Missiles are amazing for the un-dodgeability of volleys and mass damage infliction, but they are also limited in their ammo, and easily sabotaged and depleted through guerilla warfare by god-tier characters.

It's pointed out in the MD rules section. A guy in the firefight misses his shot and the blast goes through the wall and blows the arm off a little girl. After the battle the 'Law' shows up to take the offender into custody for trial for blowing off a little girls arm, or setting the grainery on fire, or any of 1000 things.

I went looking for this on pg 288 and 289, and 355 to 359 of RUE but didn't find. Could someone clarify where this "girl or grainery" scenario is described?

I did notice that RUE added a bit (do many people miss this?) about destroyed MDC armor (0 or less) still retaining an AR of 7 for the purpose of stopping SDC attacks. While this normally wouldn't be a very critical detail (presumably you inflicted MD to destroy the armor and could keep inflicting it to destroy the fleshy underneath, unless you used your last shot or something) it seems like something of decent importance for vampires. Previous to RUE, once you destroyed a vampire's MDC armor (if they had any, rare) you could go to town on them with stakes. But this means that even destroyed armor is valuable for them to use in stopping stakes or water pistols and the like. I imagine this means that MD attacks which can harm vamps (dragon claws, MD magic spells) would bypass that AR automatically though.

A Burster using Super-Fuel Flame on a TW-Flaming Sword could be doing 4d6x10MD damage

Ugh, didn't even think of this, I instinctively only thought of their own inherent flame powers which at least had additional ISP cost considerations, but flaming sword is a lot more efficient there in terms of damage over time, and can wrack it up faster than a per-melee flame pillar too...

Heck isn't there a god or something in Pantheons or wherever who has some kind of huge 'flaming sword' or something?

Trying to think of other examples besides a TW Flame Blade that could be exploited like this. The Pyros (Shadows of Light Pg 33) can make Psi-Swords and it says they "appears as a blade of fire". That might just be aesthetics though, doesn't say it's literally fire. Their claws, while only being hot metal, can ignite fires which they can control the damage of, though it's just 3d6...

Agni (PantheonsPg116) can made a d6x10 rod/sword of fire (as can his bro Atar on pg 190, though it's psionic and costs ISP), not to mention his 'purifying fire' blast which does 4x that to AIs/demons/vamps. I'm not sure if 'blasts' exist for a long enough period of time (they seem to be made and gone within a single attack) for a Burster to be able to target, so it may just be ongoing stuff (flame pillars, flame swords) which can bet targetted with it.

Anyone know any flame swords floating around (besides this guy's) in the megaverse that do more than Agni and Atar's?

[Eashamahel]

Rifts was originally a high-tech ranged game. Combat in close range was low damage, usually limited to between 1D6-2D4 MD with Vibro Blades and Claws, and most characters did not even start with these. The Cyber Knights 1D6MD and then 2D6MD Psi-Sword was a good amount of damage for hand to hand combat, allowing them to instantly summon for no cost a hand held weapon that did the equivalent damage of a modern tank's cannon! Creatures like Dragons, which were extremely powerful, threw damage in the 2D6 level (which is the basic damage of Lasers at the time), and the 4D6MD Flaming Sword was king.

Many creatures, Xyticicks included, were limited to MD on power attacks, and again in the 1D6-2D4 level, as were the sample created monsters.

The point? Melee Weapons were supposed to be the minority, and an emergency back-up in almost all situations, just like a modern combat knife or bayonet. Arguably that was abandoned soon after, but Rifts is not 'just now' moving towards guns and away from swords, that's how it started.

[Giant2005]

Trying to think of other examples besides a TW Flame Blade that could be exploited like this. The Pyros (Shadows of Light Pg 33) can make Psi-Swords and it says they "appears as a blade of fire". That might just be aesthetics though, doesn't say it's literally fire. Their claws, while only being hot metal, can ignite fires which they can control the damage of, though it's just 3d6...

Agni (PantheonsPg116) can made a d6x10 rod/sword of fire (as can his bro Atar on pg 190, though it's psionic and costs ISP), not to mention his 'purifying fire' blast which does 4x that to AIs/demons/vamps. I'm not sure if 'blasts' exist for a long enough period of time (they seem to be made and gone within a single attack) for a Burster to be able to target, so it may just be ongoing stuff (flame pillars, flame swords) which can bet targetted with it.

Anyone know any flame swords floating around (besides this guy's) in the megaverse that do more than Agni and Atar's?

I don't know about swords but the Kitttani have an entire range of Plasma weaponry in Splynn Dimensional Market that are very powerful in the hands of a Burster. They are pretty much the only ones that can make use of a Plasma Harness without joining a nudist colony.
Also the Nazca Armor of the Sun in South America 2 synergises with a Burster well, although not quite to the same extent as the Kittani gear.

[kaid]

Not trying to be nitpicky but you can shoot a gun too. It's not exclusively a melee weapon thing. When Glitterboys make an appearance, everyone targets the boom gun, asap.

Odd note is for the occasions where you can do it getting into melee with a glitterboy is an almost ideal way to take them on if you can survive to get into range. Their boom gun is so long there is no way they can target something right next to them with it and the GB while tanky as heck is not really impressive in hand to hand fights and it is a lot easier to snip the ammo feed cable in melee than at range.

[Eashamahel]

Very much like an actual tank, when you are sitting on top of it, there's not much it can do to hurt you with it's main weapons. Still, the GB is much more able to defend itself than a conventional vehichle in such a situation. The first time a GB Bodyflip-Throws a PC trying to fist fight it, then boom guns them at point blank while they are on the ground (after losing their 1 attack from the throw) is a hilarious event.

[Rimmerdal]

Very much like an actual tank, when you are sitting on top of it, there's not much it can do to hurt you with it's main weapons. Still, the GB is much more able to defend itself than a conventional vehichle in such a situation. The first time a GB Bodyflip-Throws a PC trying to fist fight it, then boom guns them at point blank while they are on the ground (after losing their 1 attack from the throw) is a hilarious event.

Thats why you go in a spot it can't reach you...like the small of or center of the back.

[Eclipse]

Make sure you have ear protection. If I was a glitterboy pilot and an individual was assaulting me at close range, I'd fire the boom gun, no particular target then if he stumbled back dazed, I'd give him a push and shoot him on the ground

[Eashamahel]

Very much like an actual tank, when you are sitting on top of it, there's not much it can do to hurt you with it's main weapons. Still, the GB is much more able to defend itself than a conventional vehichle in such a situation. The first time a GB Bodyflip-Throws a PC trying to fist fight it, then boom guns them at point blank while they are on the ground (after losing their 1 attack from the throw) is a hilarious event.

Thats why you go in a spot it can't reach you...like the small of or center of the back.

Like, right on/below the directional jet thrusters? On a 10ft metal giant that can make a jet assisted leap? And potentially just land on/body block you into the ground?

Taking the back of a standing opponent is a dominant position, no doubt, but even on a standing human it's not so controlled and mostly allows gripping/clawing through superiour position and chokes. And that human doesn't have, you know, jet thrusters... Plus, with the well articulated hands and good strength, unless you are solidly mounted on the back (on the jet thrusters...), there's nothing stopping the GB from stepping out and pummeling around. Not that getting ON a GB isn't a potentially good idea, it's just not a great idea/auto win.

[Alrik Vas]

When someone closes in on you, and you have hand to hand training, the answer is almost always body flip or some other type of knockdown. It gives you a chance to draw your gun and shoot them at extreme close (point blank) range.

[slade the sniper]

Create space and engage with the most effective weapon, or close space and grapple...one or the other.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's pointed out in the MD rules section. A guy in the firefight misses his shot and the blast goes through the wall and blows the arm off a little girl. After the battle the 'Law' shows up to take the offender into custody for trial for blowing off a little girls arm, or setting the grainery on fire, or any of 1000 things.

I went looking for this on pg 288 and 289, and 355 to 359 of RUE but didn't find. Could someone clarify where this "girl or grainery" scenario is described?

It was in reference to the previous, not the post. The "Give the players situations where going in with MD heavies might get people killed. That's NOT heavy handed. It's pointed out in the MD rules section."

As to where, look for the question "Why use SDC weapons when you could MD" I think they relate it to going duck hunting with a grenade launcher. Sometimes you want more than a few feathers.

As for the rest, there is the part where the guy goes hunting with his MD pistol, blows the deer in half, and the tree and it almost kills him and the shot goes on through the forest till the end of it's range. You can find the indications there as well. I don't think it's all in RUE, but it's in rifts books somewhere. Someone else might have the exact pages if you need them. I've got shelves and shelves of Palladium books. I don't remember the exact page of every entry.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't want to grapple any power armor. As for the GB, target the boom gun at range, preferably from extensive cover, preferably with superior numbers. Once the boom gun is taken care of, they have back ups, but are much easier to deal with.

As pointed out, getting behind one, slows them from bringing the boom gun to bear, but they can still swivel at the hips and use back up weapons, or fire their thrusters etc. And the GB pilots generally know their vulnerabilities. They're not 'meant' to be deployed alone, but with air back up and smaller more maneuverable units to keep people from 'Just get behind them' tactics.

[SpiritInterface]

After being in a Rifts game where I took out a Samas with a Vibro-Knife, it just depends on the situation. As some very wise posters have said, opening up with a rail-gun in an urban environment is not a good thing. CQB is as stated one of the other times, tight space dungeon crawl is not a good place to unload with heavy weapons.

As a GM you need to set up situations where the use of melee weapons would be the best solution and the use of ranged weapons would be hazardous. Also encourage your players to have a close combat/melee centered OCC character in the group., and set it up so that there are times when they can shine.

If your players have characters that are so wealthy that they can just turn up their noses at such valuable magic items then you need to start stripping them of that wealth.

As a GM if you start seeing the players going in a direction you don't want them to go, start guiding them back.

[Bladesplint]

I had a friend of mine email me an old PC (scanned a hand written sheet into a jpeg) that was one of my oldest favorites. Purely melee class, with some nasssssty abilities and spells that greatly enhance melee (magical adrenaline rush, necro-armor, death strike, etc.). Also some Vitaform implants with a 25-foot Ribbonrazor Amalgam tongue, which this group will know nothing about, nor recognize by name or description.

My plan is to run the group through some underground/sunken cities I've generated long ago for classic dungeon crawl feel. Kent, Ohio is one of my standing Pre-Rifts locations where several shopping malls were engulfed by sinkholes and are still somewhat intact below the surface. Heavy firearms in this setting will prove extremely hazardous to the party, in the form of cave-ins or total burial.

I will have The Rat King holed up in Kent, and by attrition the PC's should be well battered by the time they reach him.

Side note: this group of PC's isn't rich either. They tend to be simply uncaring players that aren't interested in melee weapons or their application, even magical ones. It's time to break out the Rat King and see if this critter perks their interest. Or if not interest, I'll settle for their fear.

[ShadowLogan]

Anyone know any flame swords floating around (besides this guy's) in the megaverse that do more than Agni and Atar's?

Off hand no. The only other flaming sword I can think of does 1d4x10+8 in the 2nd Atlantis Book (or Rifts BoM).

There are a few options that one can take to to more damage:
-Have the Burster's Super Fuel Flame Ability enhanced by opening his 3rd Eye (Psycape), for double the effective output (x20 instead of x10 max)
-Fencing Skill adds damage when using a sword, though weather this bonus would be modified by SFF might be left to the GM to decide (1d6 either way)
-if on Horseback (with the skill) it is also possible to do extra damage (again GM's call if it is modified by SSF or not), though this requires the elite versions IINM unless in a charge for the Burster (wouldn't stop him from souping up the weapon for someone else)

A psychic with Psi-Sword can also be potentially damaging:
+4d6 Base (unless you are a Cyber-Knight, then 1d6)
+2d6 for level advancement at certain points (Cyber-Knight and Amaki Duelist are 1/2), total of 5times
+2d6 if using a TW-Psi-Sword like the Amaki have developed
+1d6 for Fencing Skill
x2 if selected for Opening of the 3rd Eye.

That would be 11d6 at level 3 (I'm assuming the TW/Skill don't get modified by 3rd Eye) for the Master Psychic with the baseline Psi-Sword, +4d6 for each Psi-Sword Level Advancement due to 3rd Eye bonuses (15d6 at Level 4, and there are a total of 5 level advancements so: 31d6 at level 15 IINM). A Cyber-Knight/Amaki-duelist OCC works out a bit different (1/2 the advancement rate, and CK's base damage is 5d6 now, but they do enjoy reduced ISP cost).

Factor in the right Horsemanship skill (or simply Charge) for an extra 1d6 when on horseback. It's not as powerful as a SSF enhanced TW-Flaming Sword, but it can be extremely devastating when compared to the typical melee weapons (Vibro, Rune, Magic, conventional) even at low levels (at level 15 it gives a Boom Gun a run for its money).

None of these really take into acount any effects from a Ley Line or other possible bonuses (drugs, implants, vulnerabilities, etc)

[Eashamahel]

If you don't care about difficulty, a TW Lightblade is worth a look. Toss in Targeted Deflection and Ricochet Strike, run it off PPE batteries, give it to a Mind Melter, and be sure to have them fight nothing but skelebots while hanging out with his extremely unpopular D-Bee comedy companion.

Taking out a SAMAS with a Vibro knife. Now THAT sounds like a real investment of time. What's the lowest MD body part, assuming it's RMB style without any 'upgraded' MDC materials? Probably going in through the head, 70 MDC, so about twenty stabs from a 1D6 weapon? I assume you meant 'took out' as in impaired some way, or finished off, or you had some kind of pre-existing advantage over (supernatural strength, ect). Then again, I GM'd a game where a Juicer with a Vibro Knife and SDC shotgun (and no armour) just straight up scrapped a Splugorth Slaver. He got help quickly, but he pulled it off for almost a full melee and survived the encounter, got some points for 'daring' and 'endangering your own life' to be sure.

[Greyaxe]

Beings with Supernatural or Robotic Strength also kick some serious butt with a Neural Weapon in their hands.

I wish neural weapons worked on supernatural critters. I love the concept of neural weapons but unless you are in a city and not one that allows people to prance around in armor it is tough to find a target they will work on.

I ignore the rule where Neural weapons don't work in MD body armour. My players love them.

[Alrik Vas]

Take out SAMAS with vibro-knife.

Step 1: Roll initiative
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit.

[Greyaxe]

My PS Bonus for Magic and tech.

Normal PS Magic Full PS bonus Tech None
Augmented Magic Full PS bonus Tech PS bonus
Robotic Magic Full PS bonus Tech Punch or PP whichever is greater
Supernatural Magic Full Punch or Power punch Bonus Tech Full Punch or Power punch Bonus If damage is 2x md of weapon it breaks.

[Nightmask]

Those are some messed-up players, being that jaded that they just ignore useful weapons like that because 'we only want guns!'. That's not very wise, to say the least. I never go for being overly reliant on just one weapon like that, favoring a variety since outside of a weapon that can morph into a range of weapons no one weapon's good for all situations (even if some are better than others).

Seems like you need examples of those situations to school them on the importance of not keeping all their eggs in one basket. Situations where use of guns would be a bad idea and those weapons they discarded would have been good to have. Give them a reasonable chance to survive but if they don't, well that kind of thing happens when you put too much faith in a single thing.