Iron Juggernauts

[Eashamahel]

So, I have recently found myself re-reading the War On Tolkeen series, and I find myself wondering about the Iron Juggernaughts.

(Quick note: I do not happen to have the first book anymore, so maybe all of my questions are answered in that one and if so please feel free to tell me.)

In Book 3: Sorcerors Revenge, there are 4 new types of Iron Juggernauts introduced, and I noticed that all have these exact pieces of information:

"Crew:Uncertain, intelligence suggests one human or D-Bee and one or two Elementals of primordial elemental force."

And that goes along with their descriptions of Power Systems ("Magical and undetermined. Suspected to be..") and Cost ("Presumably millions of credits, but acts and thinks like a living being, so it is less of a possession or machine and more of a supernatural being...") in setting the stage for everything to be solidly from the perspective of the Coalition. Information not available to the CS is likewise not available to readers, the mysteries of Tolkeen are mysteries to us all as for some reason the writers feel that it is somehow better to not explain to readers anything that the CS doesn't know. Now, to me this seems ridiculous. Why is there not a section explaining the creation of the Juggernaughts and how Tolkeen came to them, they play a rather pivotal role and it seems unlikely that it is impossible for characters to be a part of that.

However, coming back to the first quote, in the details of the MDC of the 'creatures', under main body section, there is the note:

"Inside the Juggernaught is the mortal pilot, typically a human (60%) practitioner of magic or psychic who is typically low level, elderly or of poor health, but the 'brains' of the Juggernaught may also be a D-Bee (40%) with a similiar OCC or high level of PPE. The exposed Pilot will be in a coma and hovers near death." It goes on to talk about the high likelihood of the pilot dyiing after being seperated from the machine.

In addition, under the Iron Juggernaught heading, the explanation of the creatures as a group talks about "a human pilot is sealed inside, exchanging his fragile SDC body for the Mega-Damage construct. Forsaking his humanity (at least for a while) to serve as the brains and soul of an Iron Juggernaught. Thus, these metal behemoths can assess a situation, adapt and respond with human intelligence and ingenuity...."


My question is, exactly HOW human are these things? We see that they are piloted/controlled by a human, who can think and react as he normally would, can still speak in short sentances and single words, and make human decisions. It seems that undergoing the piloting/bonding with the Iron Juggernaughts is similiar to becoming a cyborg/undergoing a Juicer Conversion, in that it offers great power to someone who would otherwise have none, with similiar downsides. This would mean that the Juggernaugts are very human, and even suggests that there is a possibility of a 'detox' down the road.

So why do these Juggernaughts not have skills? Even ACTUAL monsters like Brodkil and Gargoyles have skills, and if these Juggernaughts are mostly low level magical practitioners, should they not as well? Land Navigation? Intelligence? Anything? Or attributes? Shouldn't they have an IQ attribute at the very least?


The presentation of the Juggernaught is basically that of a power armour/robot vehichle, it is shown in exactly the same style/format. Should there be a pilot to go along with it? A person, with some (which?) stats, skills and experience? Should that person be able to gain experience and level up? What if that person had psychic powers? What exactly are the steps necessary to 'detox'? Even so far as should the Iron Juggernaughts be considered as possible OCC choices? Can a Player Character play as a Juggernaught, or BECOME one themselves? Is it just a matter of choosing which Juggernaught 'form' to take, similiar to selecting a Cyborg body (think Triax with the Red, Yellow and Blue borg chasis)?


Now, as I mentioned above, most of the War on Tolkeen is written entirely from the CS perspective, and these 'Behemoths of Iron and Rage' are mostly there to be monsters to fight or monsters to include (the same way a Tolkeen Monster Squad would be), but what exactly are they really, how should they be handled, and why isn't this done?

[wyrmraker]

I believe that the authors wanted to keep things somewhat vague, allowing individual GMs to customize these things to their needs.

I have always seen the Iron Juggernauts as a kind of Smart Tank, with minimal skills and a fairly direct mentality towards orders, but with just enough flexibility to make it effective on the battlefield. I recall a Naruni tank with a mortal pilot that was used essentially as processing power. Once the pilot was in the tank, the pilot no longer truly existed as a person, but just as a cybernetic CPU for the tank's systems. I can easily see the Iron Juggernauts using a mystical version of this.

[Alrik Vas]

I believe that the authors wanted to keep things somewhat vague, allowing individual GMs to customize these things to their needs.

I have always seen the Iron Juggernauts as a kind of Smart Tank, with minimal skills and a fairly direct mentality towards orders, but with just enough flexibility to make it effective on the battlefield. I recall a Naruni tank with a mortal pilot that was used essentially as processing power. Once the pilot was in the tank, the pilot no longer truly existed as a person, but just as a cybernetic CPU for the tank's systems. I can easily see the Iron Juggernauts using a mystical version of this.

That's just deplorable...and creepy. Taking a person and slaving them to a machine so you don't have to do any programming. It's also lazy.

[wyrmraker]

Nobody said anything about morality in the gaming environment. It's not like there isn't plenty of despicable things in Rifts being done by the Powers That Be. Just one more item on top of the pile.

Besides, in a true survival-oriented scenario (Chaos Earth, the way Rifts was originally written) it is extremely difficult to be heroic or moral and still survive.

[kaid]

I believe that the authors wanted to keep things somewhat vague, allowing individual GMs to customize these things to their needs.

I have always seen the Iron Juggernauts as a kind of Smart Tank, with minimal skills and a fairly direct mentality towards orders, but with just enough flexibility to make it effective on the battlefield. I recall a Naruni tank with a mortal pilot that was used essentially as processing power. Once the pilot was in the tank, the pilot no longer truly existed as a person, but just as a cybernetic CPU for the tank's systems. I can easily see the Iron Juggernauts using a mystical version of this.

That's just deplorable...and creepy. Taking a person and slaving them to a machine so you don't have to do any programming. It's also lazy.

There is precedence for this kind of thing if you look at the demon ships in dimensional outbreak. Some of them the pilot eventually becomes melded with the ship until they become one being. I always kind of figured the iron juggernauts were similar people who volunteered or were "volunteered" into being melded with the armor.

[Eashamahel]

I believe that the authors wanted to keep things somewhat vague, allowing individual GMs to customize these things to their needs.

I have always seen the Iron Juggernauts as a kind of Smart Tank, with minimal skills and a fairly direct mentality towards orders, but with just enough flexibility to make it effective on the battlefield.

So basically they are a Tolkeen Skelebot, which is how they are presented, despite the fact they are piloted by a living human, just like a power armour/robot. Seems very similiar in concept to the Shadow Dragons then, a way to introduce powerful 'opponents' for PCs to defeat without any real moral issues.

Besides, in a true survival-oriented scenario (Chaos Earth, the way Rifts was originally written) it is extremely difficult to be heroic or moral and still survive.

Just as an aside, this is one of the reasons the Cyber Knights were so interesting at first, because they were not just 'sometimes good/sometimes bad' the way most other characters were presented, but had a full code of honour/conduct, ect that put them at extreme odds with the world around them, and this fairly extreme view on the world is what really put them into the 'hero' category (and NOT their ability to swordfight Skelebots), and this was reflected in their skills, which were much more 'scholarly' than the other Men at Arms, giving them a greater understanding of the world at large.

Sorry to get off track, but I really liked that about them.



So, do most think that they (Juggernaughts) SHOULD have skills and such, and that it is implied or left to the individual GM to figure out, or wwere they supposed to just be mindless (although they clearly aren't) kill-bots full of XP?

[Mercdog]

I believe that the authors wanted to keep things somewhat vague, allowing individual GMs to customize these things to their needs.

I have always seen the Iron Juggernauts as a kind of Smart Tank, with minimal skills and a fairly direct mentality towards orders, but with just enough flexibility to make it effective on the battlefield. I recall a Naruni tank with a mortal pilot that was used essentially as processing power. Once the pilot was in the tank, the pilot no longer truly existed as a person, but just as a cybernetic CPU for the tank's systems. I can easily see the Iron Juggernauts using a mystical version of this.

That's just deplorable...and creepy. Taking a person and slaving them to a machine so you don't have to do any programming. It's also lazy.

The enslaving of man into machine makes some sense, considering that it's hinted (IIRC) in their first write up that Iron Juggernauts MIGHT have come into being with the help of Atlantis. Whether or not that's true is up to individual GMs.

[Vrykolas2k]

I view it as an almost-rune magic. Probably as close as Techno-Wizardry will ever get and remain Techno-Wizardry.

[Eashamahel]

I can see that, it is stated as such I believe.

As an additional question, Rune Weapons are said to have a personality, and many are supposed to be trapped souls of dragons, demons, ect. How many here include those things when creating rune weapons? The creatures history, knowledge and skills?

[wyrmraker]

I believe that the authors wanted to keep things somewhat vague, allowing individual GMs to customize these things to their needs.

I have always seen the Iron Juggernauts as a kind of Smart Tank, with minimal skills and a fairly direct mentality towards orders, but with just enough flexibility to make it effective on the battlefield.

So basically they are a Tolkeen Skelebot, which is how they are presented, despite the fact they are piloted by a living human, just like a power armour/robot. Seems very similiar in concept to the Shadow Dragons then, a way to introduce powerful 'opponents' for PCs to defeat without any real moral issues.

Besides, in a true survival-oriented scenario (Chaos Earth, the way Rifts was originally written) it is extremely difficult to be heroic or moral and still survive.

Just as an aside, this is one of the reasons the Cyber Knights were so interesting at first, because they were not just 'sometimes good/sometimes bad' the way most other characters were presented, but had a full code of honour/conduct, ect that put them at extreme odds with the world around them, and this fairly extreme view on the world is what really put them into the 'hero' category (and NOT their ability to swordfight Skelebots), and this was reflected in their skills, which were much more 'scholarly' than the other Men at Arms, giving them a greater understanding of the world at large.

Sorry to get off track, but I really liked that about them.



So, do most think that they (Juggernaughts) SHOULD have skills and such, and that it is implied or left to the individual GM to figure out, or wwere they supposed to just be mindless (although they clearly aren't) kill-bots full of XP?

I won't disagree with you about the Cyber Knights. Their original writeup was excellent. And the concept was fantastic. That the bulk of them managed to maintain morals and heroism even in the face of the horribleness of Rifts was fantastic. And I agree that they should have been expanded as anti-supernatural fighters, as opposed to anti-tech.

[Alrik Vas]

As far as Cyberknights go, play a Momano Hunter who lives their life like a Cyber Knight...there ya go.

As far as Iron Juggernaughts, I think they wouldn't have the skills anymore. They probably subdue their higher brain functions to keep them from "breaking free" of their "prison."

[Slight001]

I believe that the authors wanted to keep things somewhat vague, allowing individual GMs to customize these things to their needs.

I have always seen the Iron Juggernauts as a kind of Smart Tank, with minimal skills and a fairly direct mentality towards orders, but with just enough flexibility to make it effective on the battlefield. I recall a Naruni tank with a mortal pilot that was used essentially as processing power. Once the pilot was in the tank, the pilot no longer truly existed as a person, but just as a cybernetic CPU for the tank's systems. I can easily see the Iron Juggernauts using a mystical version of this.

That's just deplorable...and creepy. Taking a person and slaving them to a machine so you don't have to do any programming. It's also lazy.

IIRC the Naruni super tank uses the individual's brain for both defining targets and to give the machine the potential aggression and randomness of organics.

It's likely possible that the Iron Juggernauts use of a living being is for similar reasons. That and it make them all the more vile because they only exist at the cost of another's life.

[Alrik Vas]

It's no wonder your average CS citizen is so readily cajoled into hating the superantural. The boys in propaganda are on easy street.

[Eashamahel]

I won't disagree with you about the Cyber Knights. Their original writeup was excellent. And the concept was fantastic. That the bulk of them managed to maintain morals and heroism even in the face of the horribleness of Rifts was fantastic. And I agree that they should have been expanded as anti-supernatural fighters, as opposed to anti-tech.

I don't really think they needed to be expanded as specifically anti-anything, actually. Just going with the ideas of personalized armour and weapons, some basic Zen-Combat ideas/bonuses against everything, and a few neat ideas like the bonding with their Cyber Armour would have been enough. Cyber Knights have to deal with a huge variety of enemies and situations, their skills are suitably wide ranging, and though it would be neat if they could specialize as they went up levels to combat certain types of threats, I don't think they needed to be psychic anti-tech right off the start.

[Nightmask]

It's no wonder your average CS citizen is so readily cajoled into hating the superantural. The boys in propaganda are on easy street.

I'm sure the CS would be using human brains (whole or in part) as organic CPU for their robots if they could work it out or felt it would improve their combat effectiveness. Given how monstrous they are about their experimentation they'd likely start or at least have some of the research based on using Dog Boys as their victims or using 'defective' humans as contributors.

[Eashamahel]

Eh, I don't think so. Considering genetic manipulation of humans is illegal, Cyborgs and Juicers were only recently added to the CS army, and Prosek is said to actually care about humanity, it seems that the CS does hold the view that human life is sacred.

[Slight001]

Nobody said anything about morality in the gaming environment. It's not like there isn't plenty of despicable things in Rifts being done by the Powers That Be. Just one more item on top of the pile.

Besides, in a true survival-oriented scenario (Chaos Earth, the way Rifts was originally written) it is extremely difficult to be heroic or moral and still survive.

That's often why I play an Aberrant character as to many groups are composed of mostly boy scout wannabe's. When the life of a single innocent holds the key to life or death for many more my character will do everything he can to save the innocent but when he's out of options... well sorry but it's for the greater good. I've had PC's killed by fellow PCs for doing just that. They were ready to let the masses die just because they couldn't deal with the reality of the situation... but once it was done they had no problem killing the only one willing to save the masses.

[dragonfett]

Eh, I don't think so. Considering genetic manipulation of humans is illegal, Cyborgs and Juicers were only recently added to the CS army, and Prosek is said to actually care about humanity, it seems that the CS does hold the view that human life is sacred.

Just because genetic manipulation of humans is illegal doesn't mean that it still isn't done in secret in the CS. Dr. Bradford already is doing some human genetic testing, as per Lonestar.

[Eashamahel]

Yep, and as per Lonestar he is doing it illegally, without Emperor Prosek or any of the ruling elite's knowledge. Infact:

"If the Emperor should ever learn about what's going on at GED, he will be shocked and horrified, and the entire program at Lone Star will be shut down untial an extensive investigation and purge can be completed. All those who worked willingly with Bradford will be executed, Bradford included." Lonestar, pg.66

So... No, don't think it's going to happen. There is currently only one guy in the whole CS doing genetic engineering on humans, and that's the reality of his situation.

Additionally, even though Bradford conducts illegal and secret genetic experiments which could lead to his execution if discovered, after his total failure with the Psi-X aliens:

"Because the Psi-X were humans, used illegally and against their will...Bradford could not bring himself to destroy them like animals."

So even Doctor Desmond Bradford, illegal experimenter that he is, doing things that would horrify the leader and current shaper of the Coalition (who himself is leading and shaping the nation into a genocidal mass of hate and fear), respects human life to the point where he puts his very life on the line by releasing them.

[Alrik Vas]

It's no wonder your average CS citizen is so readily cajoled into hating the superantural. The boys in propaganda are on easy street.

I'm sure the CS would be using human brains (whole or in part) as organic CPU for their robots if they could work it out or felt it would improve their combat effectiveness. Given how monstrous they are about their experimentation they'd likely start or at least have some of the research based on using Dog Boys as their victims or using 'defective' humans as contributors.

My statement in no way excuses the CS from any wrong doing they may or may have not committed. Matter of fact, I was only stating that as long as their enemies keep giving them such great ammunition to use, most humans under their rule would be overjoyed to hear D-bee's and magic users are slaughtered wholesale.

[Eashamahel]

It's also worth pointing out the CS CURRENTLY has the tech to make an army of walking battle tanks with human brains (full conversion borgs) and does not.

[dragonfett]

Yep, and as per Lonestar he is doing it illegally, without Emperor Prosek or any of the ruling elite's knowledge. Infact:

"If the Emperor should ever learn about what's going on at GED, he will be shocked and horrified, and the entire program at Lone Star will be shut down untial an extensive investigation and purge can be completed. All those who worked willingly with Bradford will be executed, Bradford included." Lonestar, pg.66

So... No, don't think it's going to happen. There is currently only one guy in the whole CS doing genetic engineering on humans, and that's the reality of his situation.

Additionally, even though Bradford conducts illegal and secret genetic experiments which could lead to his execution if discovered, after his total failure with the Psi-X aliens:

"Because the Psi-X were humans, used illegally and against their will...Bradford could not bring himself to destroy them like animals."

So even Doctor Desmond Bradford, illegal experimenter that he is, doing things that would horrify the leader and current shaper of the Coalition (who himself is leading and shaping the nation into a genocidal mass of hate and fear), respects human life to the point where he puts his very life on the line by releasing them.

I was merely pointing out that just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it couldn't be researched.

[Nightmask]

Yep, and as per Lonestar he is doing it illegally, without Emperor Prosek or any of the ruling elite's knowledge. Infact:

"If the Emperor should ever learn about what's going on at GED, he will be shocked and horrified, and the entire program at Lone Star will be shut down untial an extensive investigation and purge can be completed. All those who worked willingly with Bradford will be executed, Bradford included." Lonestar, pg.66

So... No, don't think it's going to happen. There is currently only one guy in the whole CS doing genetic engineering on humans, and that's the reality of his situation.

Additionally, even though Bradford conducts illegal and secret genetic experiments which could lead to his execution if discovered, after his total failure with the Psi-X aliens:

"Because the Psi-X were humans, used illegally and against their will...Bradford could not bring himself to destroy them like animals."

So even Doctor Desmond Bradford, illegal experimenter that he is, doing things that would horrify the leader and current shaper of the Coalition (who himself is leading and shaping the nation into a genocidal mass of hate and fear), respects human life to the point where he puts his very life on the line by releasing them.

Bradford thinks he's a god, he doesn't consider it putting his life on the line just 'protecting' his fellow 'god' from having to worry about the messy things he's doing. If he actually valued human life he wouldn't have experimented on them in the first place (and as one could see from his story short he had NO problems arranging the murder of an inspector secretly sent in to spy on him).

He's also not the only one doing human experimentation, his female underling has created clones of him and scattered them around for study for example, odds are she's got more than that going on at her hidden labs.

[Vrykolas2k]

It's also worth pointing out the CS CURRENTLY has the tech to make an army of walking battle tanks with human brains (full conversion borgs) and does not.

True.
Like say, about a million SAMAS 'borgs...

[Eashamahel]

Oh gosh, let's all try and ignore the one-million stashed old style SAMAS the CS apparantly has mothballed. Enough to give every CS Grunt a suit. But they don't. Because... Yeah, let's just ignore that little bit.

Also, the comments above on Bradford don't add up.

"Bradford thinks he's a god, he doesn't consider it putting his life on the line..."

vs

"as one could see from his story short he had NO problems arranging the murder of an inspector secretly sent in to spy on him..."

Clearly, he is concerned about his life, otherwise he wouldn't have killed the man sent to spy on him. He is very protective of his position and anonymity and will do anything to anything to protect them, including kill, and has no trouble dealing with his enemies by setting up their deaths, but was still unable to bring himself to kill the Psi-X, who it is pointed out were innocent humans he abducted, and released them. For a guy with a pretty serious dedication to secrecy, this was a pretty big level of risk. Being willing to kill your enemies and those who are a threat to you does not mean you do not value human life. Emperor Prosek is also written this way, it being stated that he does care about the people he is in control of, but clearly being capable of horrendous things to those he percieves to be a threat or in his way.

[Nightmask]

Oh gosh, let's all try and ignore the one-million stashed old style SAMAS the CS apparantly has mothballed. Enough to give every CS Grunt a suit. But they don't. Because... Yeah, let's just ignore that little bit.

Also, the comments above on Bradford don't add up.

"Bradford thinks he's a god, he doesn't consider it putting his life on the line..."

vs

"as one could see from his story short he had NO problems arranging the murder of an inspector secretly sent in to spy on him..."

Clearly, he is concerned about his life, otherwise he wouldn't have killed the man sent to spy on him. He is very protective of his position and anonymity and will do anything to anything to protect them, including kill, and has no trouble dealing with his enemies by setting up their deaths, but was still unable to bring himself to kill the Psi-X, who it is pointed out were innocent humans he abducted, and released them. For a guy with a pretty serious dedication to secrecy, this was a pretty big level of risk. Being willing to kill your enemies and those who are a threat to you does not mean you do not value human life. Emperor Prosek is also written this way, it being stated that he does care about the people he is in control of, but clearly being capable of horrendous things to those he percieves to be a threat or in his way.

The people he released were a threat to him, their existence could expose what he's been up to. He didn't kill them more because they were favored lab animals and to see how they'd function, and yes he thinks himself a god and above the rules of man and thinking yourself a god doesn't mean you aren't concerned with your own survival. It also doesn't mean you don't take risks sometimes or don't really consider something a risk that you should.

Really, trying to make Bradford out as somehow a better person than he actually is is just wrong, he's not. He used helpless human beings as lab animals, many of whom certainly died as a result of the experiments, or do you think he somehow had not a single one of his victims die from his experiments? Or are those deaths acceptable or to be ignored to focus on how 'noble' he was to just release the surviving victims so he could monitor them and see how they managed to survive? Really there's nothing humane about the guy.

[Eashamahel]

I don't see how I claimed Bradford was somehow a better person than he actually is, are you sure you read what I wrote? Bradford clearly sees himself as a god, or at least,

"as the enlightened superiour over most other men...and as such is removed from them. Thus, their rules, laws, and morals don't apply to him."

plus,

"Bradford's megalomania is reflected in his self elevation to Godhood and his conviction that he possesses superhuman intelligence and wisdom beyond the comprehension of mere humans."

(Although it should be pointed out that at an IQ of 27, Bradford DOES have a 'superhuman' intelligence, as there was no way a human under RIFTS rules at the time could possess that stat...)

Also, he is clearly a terrible person, besides his Diabolic evil alignment (which of course means he is a terrible person), he is described as effectively being insane and a sociopath, knowing right and wrong, that his actions are inhumane, but being able to live with the consequences.


That being said, he does know right from wrong, does know his actions have consequences, does realize when he is being inhumane and recognizes what he often does as murder, and could not bring himself to destroy the Psi-X, no doubt mostly because, as stated, he did not see them as complete failures, however,

"Because the Psi-X were humans, used illegally and against their will (many of them youngesters between the ages of 13 and 20...) Bradford could not bring himself to destroy them like animals."

So, clearly, Bradford is both concerned about being caught performing illegal experiments and also knows that there is value in human life (as show clearly above), even if he is still willing to kill when it suits his purpose.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, evil scientist believes his work will perfect his race, bringing them above the monsters around him, and he KNOWS he is the ONLY ONE who can complete this work. Of course he cares about humanity, it's his entire purpose. But...if you are going to stand in his way, he will destroy you. Anyone who tries to stop him lacks vision, cannot understand the truth of his work. When the work is complete, then the Emperor will see his greatness.

Most of us have discussed this before. You know, that whole evil people don't think they're evil thing.

[kaid]

I won't disagree with you about the Cyber Knights. Their original writeup was excellent. And the concept was fantastic. That the bulk of them managed to maintain morals and heroism even in the face of the horribleness of Rifts was fantastic. And I agree that they should have been expanded as anti-supernatural fighters, as opposed to anti-tech.

I don't really think they needed to be expanded as specifically anti-anything, actually. Just going with the ideas of personalized armour and weapons, some basic Zen-Combat ideas/bonuses against everything, and a few neat ideas like the bonding with their Cyber Armour would have been enough. Cyber Knights have to deal with a huge variety of enemies and situations, their skills are suitably wide ranging, and though it would be neat if they could specialize as they went up levels to combat certain types of threats, I don't think they needed to be psychic anti-tech right off the start.

I don't mind the anti tech stuff but I think it would have been more interesting if they had different focus options for anti tech/anti psychic or anti supernatural.

That said the anti tech stuff doesn't really detract from the class for me I just used it as an additional boost to the original OCC. The combat abilities and skills of a cyberknight make them excellent vs all opponents and the extra tech stuff gives them that little bit of extra edge against a pretty wide variety of targets. Even mages and many supernatural critters like brodkill and gargoyles can and will use tech weapons.

[kaid]

It's also worth pointing out the CS CURRENTLY has the tech to make an army of walking battle tanks with human brains (full conversion borgs) and does not.

Not only that but what borgs they had have been way more limited than one would expect even from comprable tech forces. NGR and Japan heavily utilize many borg units the CS until the war with tolkeen had a pretty minimal amount of them and only after the way was going bad did they start increasing that number and even then most borgs were not from healthy volunteers but injured/crippled troops who still wanted to fight.

Say what you want about the CS but they really are all about keeping humans human and protecting them. Just look at their stances on juicers and crazies they started their juicer/crazy programs VERY grudgingly even though if you look at it would be a no brainer to lure tons of stupid young men from the burbs with citizenship for their families for accepting juicer conversion. As dark as many of the choices the CS makes are there have been things they could do that would augment their combat power significantly that they chose not to utilize because the humans involved would be maimed or die very young from the processes.

[Eashamahel]

Yeah, evil scientist believes his work will perfect his race, bringing them above the monsters around him, and he KNOWS he is the ONLY ONE who can complete this work. Of course he cares about humanity, it's his entire purpose. But...if you are going to stand in his way, he will destroy you. Anyone who tries to stop him lacks vision, cannot understand the truth of his work. When the work is complete, then the Emperor will see his greatness.

Most of us have discussed this before. You know, that whole evil people don't think they're evil thing.

Seems reasonable. What's your point?

And yeah, the CS reluctance to include even cyborgs in their forces until recently, and Juicers even more recently than that definately shows that they truly are concerned for the lives of 'their' citizens/humanity. Remember that in the beggining of RIFTS, anyone outside of a CS city was considered to be living in 'the wasteland', a terrible and dangerous place where no sane or good person would go. That's been mostly overlooked now, but still shapes how the CS often sees non-CS humans as enemies, especially those that consort with the true enemy. The old Rogue Scholar OCC description summed this up pretty well, I seem to remember.

And I don't think the CS uses crazies at all. Really, no standing army should, at least not as a regular force.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, evil scientist believes his work will perfect his race, bringing them above the monsters around him, and he KNOWS he is the ONLY ONE who can complete this work. Of course he cares about humanity, it's his entire purpose. But...if you are going to stand in his way, he will destroy you. Anyone who tries to stop him lacks vision, cannot understand the truth of his work. When the work is complete, then the Emperor will see his greatness.

Most of us have discussed this before. You know, that whole evil people don't think they're evil thing.

Seems reasonable. What's your point?

I was mostly agreeing with you on the stance about Bradford. I know CAPS can make things seem argumentative, but i was just supporting your point.

[Eashamahel]

No prob, I was just a bit confused.

Considering the kinds of hoops that the writers had to go through to try and make it even possible to consider Tolkeen the bad guys at all, I would have thought that they would have really tried to nail home the morally questionable nature of Iron Juggernauts, if there was one.

[Alrik Vas]

Oh, fiddlesticks. they were the badguys from the start. I bet they dominated people and teleported explosives into areas with civilians and everything.