Damage, Combat, and the concept of an Abstract Combat System

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I didn't want to further derail the "Why is the System So Broken" thread, but for about two-three pages it got off on a "the damage system isn't believable" tangent, and i wanted to address some of that and where i think misconceptions lie.

First off: if the damage system in your game (not just Palladium's games - ANY game) has a "point" system - you're playing in an abstract combat system. There's no way around that.

This primarily applies to the HP/SDC divide, but also to a lesser extent to MDC as well, in Palladium's games.

The thing that i think most people are missing about an abstract damage system (or at least, they appear to be missing by the wording of their posts in the other thread) is the nature of such a system. You roll to strike; you "hit", and you "deal damage" - it is all abstract. There's no hard and fast rule about what just happened "visually" in game. There is no scale of "2 points of damage means it was just a scratch, 5 points is a bruise, 10 points is a major wound". It would be pointless doing that anyone given the wildly varying amounts of points in a given characters' pool.

Most games dont have two pools of damage like Palladium does (some do, most dont), but i think the two-pool system makes this concept even more clear. SDC clearly represents your ability to take minor wounds, abrasions, scrapes, and other wounds you can shrug off pretty easily in the course of combat. I think most people get that concept - what most people aren't getting, i think is how a "hit" with a "deadly weapon" can inflict SDC damage.

It's really easy, and i think perhaps it is easier for me to conceptualize because of almost two decades of full-contact LARPing and re-enacting; SDC also represents your experience in combat, your ability to turn a blow that might have otherwise been quite harmful or fatal into a mere scrape or bruise. The best example i can use from LARPing is the following (the LARP i played for years is one step shy of SCA-level re-enactment, so the combat is actually pretty rough and as close to full contact as it can be and still be relatively safe):

Another player, playing an NPC orc, advanced on me with a pair of weapons. A newer player, he had his weapons spread fairly far apart, and had his torso almost full-on facing me directly. I was fighting, at the time, with a poleaxe (about 6 1/2 ft long). I dropped a straight thrust right between his weapons and into his stomach, hard enough (because the guy was charging me) to double him up over the head of my weapon. In real life, he was dead; but what i definitely did NOT see in-game was this guy spitted on my poleaxe, as i had inflicted only a certain amount of damage. I probably didn't even penetrate the guys armor (IIRC, he was in a decent amount of chain mail). As an abstract, point-based combat system, you just have to roll with it. You train your brain to see what "really" happened - i took a thrust at him, and at the last moment he turned the shot and took a grazing shot across his mail. That's the nature of an abstract damage system.

Similarly, in any Palladium combat, just because you "hit" doesn't mean you scored a solid blow. Maybe the guy turned at the last second. Maybe your grip slipped. What definitely didn't happen is that planted a solid blow right through the guys' chest, because then he'd be dead (and he clearly is not).

The same goes for SDC weapons and melee attacks. (Someone had commented on kicks doing as much damage as, say, a Claymore - we wont get into "which Claymore are we talking about?") As a re-enactor (SCA heavy combat, and some fencing, among other things), trust me when i say, martial arts are just as deadly as a lot of melee weapons, including a lot of the two-handed weapons.

Most of the impressions laymen have about how the big two-handed weapons were used, for one thing, is incorrect. A two-handed Claymore or other greatsword, like a Landschneckt Zweihander, were specialist weapons, used as anti-cavalry and anti-pike formation weapons. They were almost never used against opposing infantry, because of how easy it was to avoid actually getting hit by those weapons. Landschneckt's carried a short sword as part of their standard kit, as well, and when they did have to use their greatswords against enemy infantry, they choked up on them and used them a lot like spears. The blades weren't sharp (they didn't need to be), and most had a 12-20" ricasso that wasn't even edged, specifically so the weapon could be held there. They were also often reversed and held by the blade to deal with enemy mounted soldiers, used as blunt weapons to smash a horseman off his mount (the pommel was often 1 1/2lbs on its own, both to counterbalance the weapon and add to its heft when used in this fashion). Im not particularly sure what the damage on a greatsword is in Palladium (i'd hope 3d6ish), but the chances of you scoring a "perfect hit' with the blade in one-on-one combat and cutting someone in half is nearly non-existent; the damage value could be seen as a reflection of how the thing is actually used in close-up combat (more likely to be used to thrust, smash, or, in the case of traditional Swiss greatsword dueling, almost like a quarterstaff, where you check someone with the blade, and use both ends as weapons).

While i myself practice mostly western martial arts (weapon-based western sword or polearm based styles, never had the flexibility for those fancy eastern martial arts) i am friends with half a dozen people who are very experienced in eastern styles, both hard and soft.

With my swiss-pattern poleaxe (often called a "Lochaber" axe) i can, pretty reliably, cut the top off of an anchored 4x4 with a good solid swing. Both of my friends who are experienced in hard styles can break the same 4x4 with their "bare" hands and feet (light protective gear, usually 1/4" leather gloves).

Okay, done rambling for now.

[tmikesecrist3]

That's actually vary well thought out. and maybe I should have my players read this.... I have some exprinces with sword play myself and faver a long sword. And there are many ways to avoid taking a slide hit. the only thing I could wish for would be away to deal with being konked off balince. or getting your weapon lurred out of postion by means of a faint(same with the enemy).. and ranged combat I think still needs work to refine but hey... any rpg is a work in progress at least pb doesnt have us buying a whole new set of books every time we turn around.

and those wanting to make combat faster and more deadly... there are rules for devideing up hit points and sdc. would work with mdc as well I think in the compintiam of modern weapons...

[flatline]

Having two pools only makes a difference if the pools are used differently. Very few attacks bypass SDC, so for most purposes, having both SDC and HP is no different than simply having a larger HP pool except that SDC heals faster.

Other systems with two pools do a better job. Champions, which uses the Heroes system, has two pools: endurance (basically fatigue points) and hit points. Attacks fall into three categories: lethal, regular, and non-lethal. Lethal attacks do damage straight to hit points (and cause secondary endurance reductions). Regular attacks mostly reduce endurance, but also reduces hit points by a much lesser extent. Non-lethal attacks reduce endurance only. This simple distinction allows for stun attacks that take someone out of a fight without risking real harm, regular attacks that will probably take someone out of a fight before killing them but could do real damage, and then attacks that will kill them outright. As much as I hate the Heroes system, this is one of the most elegant mechanisms for this type of thing that I've seen in any system I've looked at.

GURPS also makes a distinction between hit points and fatigue points which, again, allows for attacks that take someone out of a fight without killing them outright, but the mechanism is a little course compared to Heroes. Since standard weapons don't do fatigue in addition to hit point damage (this may have changed in the current edition), it's still difficult to take someone out of a fight without doing real damage to them unless you have a special weapon or technique for attacking fatigue points, but at least the option is there.

Anyways, what I'm getting at is that while Palladium does technically have a two-pool system, it's the weakest two-pool system that I'm aware of as far as effect on how the game is played. As it's currently implemented, I do not consider it to be a strength of the system. If having SDC reduced to 0 actually had some sort of game mechanic effect, then things would be different.

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

Great post!

[Killer Cyborg]

Anyways, what I'm getting at is that while Palladium does technically have a two-pool system, it's the weakest two-pool system that I'm aware of as far as effect on how the game is played. As it's currently implemented, I do not consider it to be a strength of the system. If having SDC reduced to 0 actually had some sort of game mechanic effect, then things would be different.

--flatline

It's got more presence in Ninjas & Superspies than anywhere else, but I agree with your point there.
The strength of SDC is primarily in potential. Mechanic-wise, it nets out as extra HP, and that's about it.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Oh, i wasnt saying i was in love with the SDC/HP system as a two-pool system, i was mostly just trying to show how an abstract damage system works.

[Akashic Soldier]

Mechanic-wise, it nets out as extra HP, and that's about it.

Mechanically speaking each time the character takes HP damage they roll on the random injury table in the R:MB so that isn't technically true.

[eliakon]

Mechanic-wise, it nets out as extra HP, and that's about it.

Mechanically speaking each time the character takes HP damage they roll on the random injury table in the R:MB so that isn't technically true.

Thats the first time I have heard that, you have the page referance for that? I know that you roll on the table if you survive losing ALL your HP, and survive the coma, but not for every time you lose HP. And is it a 'core' rule or an optional one?

[Akashic Soldier]

Mechanic-wise, it nets out as extra HP, and that's about it.

Mechanically speaking each time the character takes HP damage they roll on the random injury table in the R:MB so that isn't technically true.

Thats the first time I have heard that, you have the page referance for that? I know that you roll on the table if you survive losing ALL your HP, and survive the coma, but not for every time you lose HP. And is it a 'core' rule or an optional one?

Its been a LONG time since I've read it. Maybe I am wrong? Maybe I am remembering it differently? If you dig around the R:MB near the damage table you should find what I am talking about. If I remember correctly its something like with robots where they roll on the screw up table for every 40 points of M.D.C. they take below 50%.

[Killer Cyborg]

Mechanic-wise, it nets out as extra HP, and that's about it.

Mechanically speaking each time the character takes HP damage they roll on the random injury table in the R:MB so that isn't technically true.

Thats the first time I have heard that, you have the page referance for that? I know that you roll on the table if you survive losing ALL your HP, and survive the coma, but not for every time you lose HP. And is it a 'core' rule or an optional one?

Its been a LONG time since I've read it. Maybe I am wrong? Maybe I am remembering it differently? If you dig around the R:MB near the damage table you should find what I am talking about. If I remember correctly its something like with robots where they roll on the screw up table for every 40 points of M.D.C. they take below 50%.

RMB p. 11 has some Optional Damage Rules, for when a player "loses a great amount of Hit Points," with the note to roll "each time severe damage is endured."

There is a second table there to roll on when 75%-99% of a character's HP is depleted.

So you didn't remember it quite right, but IF the GM uses those tables, that does provide a difference between HP and SDC.
Shame those tables don't seem to have made it into RUE. They potentially added an extra layer of realism to the game.