It turns out M.D. IS rare. (Lets do the math!)

[Akashic Soldier]

I recently sat down with my Adventure Guide and put THIS together because my players let a huge pack of Mega-Raptors into a Barbarian Settlement and then used an animated Duckbill Honker to break the gate locking mechanism from the inside and then fall on it so that the Mega-Raptors were locked inside and no one could get out.

Needless to say over the next couple of days the Mega-Raptors hunted and killed everyone in the city and could not REALLY believably be stopped (most of the milita were killed before they could get back into the town - again because of the PCs.) So most of the survivors were men and women with... yup... TWO M.D. laser rifles. That is right, look it up. They could have had a couple more but they also could have less.

I guess my point is, if you build the average town/settlement you will find that M.D. weapons are very freaking rare. I knew they were "RARE" but I had no idea just how rare they actually were. It is no wonder people hail stores like Northern Gun as heroes! Basically, if **** goes down what they've got on their shelves waiting for sale might be the only M.D. weapons in the town!

Of course, I am not referring to the Mega-Cities or Capitols or anything like that. I am referring to the AVERAGE settlements of men and women scattered throughout the countryside. Those guys (on average) don't get a lot unless they were gathered together around a Pre-Rifts weapons cache. Don't believe me? Crack open the book and do the math!

What is more important to you, electricity or the ability to recharge those guns?

Man I love Rifts.

Again, remember... 1,100 people and I got TWO M.D. Firearms and *presumably* what the "heroic" characters I buy for the town start with in their starting equipment.

[flatline]

How did you determine how many MD weapons were available to the survivors?

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

How did you determine how many MD weapons were available to the survivors?

--flatline

You get told how many you get based off population size, etc, and various other factors. You can get more but you need to spend points buying "Pre-Rifts weapons cache" or high grade military defenses (like full-on trained PROFESSIONAL soldiers; not law enforcement - think Deadboys) and since most places don't realistically have that and "this place" wasn't one of the few rare places built on a Pre-Rifts ammo dump or old Nema Facility, I rolled and they got two. They had a bunch of shotguns and other stuff like that too, just their M.D. weaponry was limited to 2 and 8 E-Clips (split between them 1D4+1 each).

[Comrade Corsarius]

MDC Cowboy hats.

sorry, I'll say it again

MDC COWBOY HATS

MDC is common enough to make freaking COWBOY HATS Mega Damage.

At worst, I'll have armour made ENTIRELY OF HATS.

MD is common everywhere except Rifts Australia.

[DhAkael]

MDC Cowboy hats.

sorry, I'll say it again

MDC COWBOY HATS

MDC is common enough to make freaking COWBOY HATS Mega Damage.

At worst, I'll have armour made ENTIRELY OF HATS.

MD is common everywhere except Rifts Australia.

What he said.
That and a good 80 to 90% of the beasties, even NON-supernatural ones are at least low level MDC and can inflict (if weak) at least a 100sdc = 1 mdc bite or scratch if they use a "power" attack.

Though I'll be fair and say man-made MDC MAY be rare in some areas... SOME.
Your average adventuring crew though is NOT going to be stupid and go out into the depths of Florida swamplands or the magic zone without at BARE minimum an MDC poncho and lizard kickin' boots of cermaite.

[flatline]

How did you determine how many MD weapons were available to the survivors?

--flatline

You get told how many you get based off population size, etc, and various other factors. You can get more but you need to spend points buying "Pre-Rifts weapons cache" or high grade military defenses (like full-on trained PROFESSIONAL soldiers; not law enforcement - think Deadboys) and since most places don't realistically have that and "this place" wasn't one of the few rare places built on a Pre-Rifts ammo dump or old Nema Facility, I rolled and they got two. They had a bunch of shotguns and other stuff like that too, just their M.D. weaponry was limited to 2 and 8 E-Clips (split between them 1D4+1 each).

What book are you using for creating settlements such as this one?

--flatline

[Akashic Soldier]

What book are you using for creating settlements such as this one?

--flatline

Rifts Adventure Guide (as I mentioned in the first post).

As for M.D. Cowboy hats, yup M.D. armor is common. 25% of the population (which is the standard percentage of a militia; it can be up to 75% of the population) have light M.D. armor (which would extend to clothing and such too). If you read the PDF I posted the link to, you will notice that the barbarian settlement has 200 suits of light M.D. armor and that was with me taking into account its recent losses from the Barbarians that had been killed in the wilderness.

[Icefalcon]

How did you determine how many MD weapons were available to the survivors?

--flatline

You get told how many you get based off population size, etc, and various other factors. You can get more but you need to spend points buying "Pre-Rifts weapons cache" or high grade military defenses (like full-on trained PROFESSIONAL soldiers; not law enforcement - think Deadboys) and since most places don't realistically have that and "this place" wasn't one of the few rare places built on a Pre-Rifts ammo dump or old Nema Facility, I rolled and they got two. They had a bunch of shotguns and other stuff like that too, just their M.D. weaponry was limited to 2 and 8 E-Clips (split between them 1D4+1 each).

What book are you using for creating settlements such as this one?

--flatline

I am thinking you are using the Adventure Guide but I am not sure, since I do not own it. I would also like to know how you derive these "hard" numbers since Palladium usually avoids them or can never agree on them from book to book.

[Akashic Soldier]

I am thinking you are using the Adventure Guide but I am not sure, since I do not own it. I would also like to know how you derive these "hard" numbers since Palladium usually avoids them or can never agree on them from book to book.

Its an entire section of the book dedicated to building your own villages, towns, mega-cities, and your own organizations, companies, businesses, syndicates, etc.

All a point buy system, all hard numbers.

[Icefalcon]

Like the mercenary company and traveling circus point buys?

[Akashic Soldier]

Like the mercenary company and traveling circus point buys?

Yup, exactly. They're in it too!

[Icefalcon]

Like the mercenary company and traveling circus point buys?

Yup, exactly. They're in it too!

You do realize that those are not so great that they always wind up even. For example, even using one of the smaller mercenary units (small time unit, 6-12 guys and the smallest unit), you get an extra 10 points weapons and 10 points vehicles. Then with sponsorship (we will again assume smallest which adds 10 points wherever you want). Just doing a quick glance over just now (using smallest group, smallest sponsorship) spending 60 of the 60 given points (plus 10 freebies toward vehicles, and 10 towards weapons and the free 10 towards weapons; for total of 20), I wind up with the following:

A: Sponsorship None
B: Outfits Utility Outfits
C: Equipment Electric Supplies and Good Gear
D: Vehicles Fleet Vehicles
E: Weapons, PA, Bots Advanced Weaponry
F: Communications Secured Service
G: Internal Security Lax
H: Permanent Base Partial HQ
I: Intelligence Resources Scout Detachment
J: Special Budget Nickles and Dimes
K: General Alignment Unprincipled and Scrupulous
L: Criminal Activity NONE
M: Reputation Unknown
N: Salary Good

Now, let's take a look what that gives the group (6-12 guys remember).

Weapons: Energy rifle (one or two will actually be a heavy weapon), energy pistol, grenades (does not say how many)
Vehicles: 1-3 PA's (according to weapon section), one combat robot or tank (again according to weapon section), fleet of trucks, trailers, motor homes and APC's (with only half the vehicles armed and armored) with the officers having their own personal vehicle that is armed with two more weapons
Equipment: basic cybernetics, communications gear, computers, sensors and all kinds of basic goodies (up to 25,000 credits worth) for each soldier plus and inexpensive uniform for each soldier (with plenty of replacements), plus the communications section gives the group more electronics to spread around
Pay: and even the most base guy there gets paid 400 a month (without combat pay), and most equipment and weapons are replaced by the company

Just taking that setup from above, turning it into a mercenary group that are chasing the players, I could reap a lot of death with the guys. They have scouts to track the party. When the main body of the mercs catch up to the players, they open up with a tank (what I chose), one Glitter Boy (one of two PA's) and two heavy gunners (one using automatic grenade launcher out of mercenaries, the other NG plasma cannon). Meanwhile, the Sidewinder SAMAS (the other PA choice) and two of the officers on NG 480 Turbo hovercycles (with dual laser cannon turret on front) and armed with NG-LG6 rifles, Wilk's-Remi "Big Man" laser pistols and 3 plasma hand grenade (and another 12 for their rifles) outflank the players. Meanwhile, the slower APC's (carrying the rest of the soldiers) pull up behind cover nearby and the soldiers jump out to lay down suppresive fire on the players.

Wow, I better stop. This is scaring me. I could kill the players right here with just this.

But I think I just proved a point, this is the smallest of the mercenary groups in the book. But these guys are super bad-a**ed. If this is any indication of the tables for city creation, then even a small city can be made to be quite defensible.

[Akashic Soldier]

Like the mercenary company and traveling circus point buys?

Yup, exactly. They're in it too!

You do realize that those are not so great that they always wind up even. For example, even using one of the smaller mercenary units (small time unit, 6-12 guys and the smallest unit), you get an extra 10 points weapons and 10 points vehicles. Then with sponsorship (we will again assume smallest which adds 10 points wherever you want). Just doing a quick glance over just now (using smallest group, smallest sponsorship) spending 60 of the 60 given points (plus 10 freebies toward vehicles, and 10 towards weapons and the free 10 towards weapons; for total of 20), I wind up with the following:

A: Sponsorship None
B: Outfits Utility Outfits
C: Equipment Electric Supplies and Good Gear
D: Vehicles Fleet Vehicles
E: Weapons, PA, Bots Advanced Weaponry
F: Communications Secured Service
G: Internal Security Lax
H: Permanent Base Partial HQ
I: Intelligence Resources Scout Detachment
J: Special Budget Nickles and Dimes
K: General Alignment Unprincipled and Scrupulous
L: Criminal Activity NONE
M: Reputation Unknown
N: Salary Good

Now, let's take a look what that gives the group (6-12 guys remember).

Weapons: Energy rifle (one or two will actually be a heavy weapon), energy pistol, grenades (does not say how many)
Vehicles: 1-3 PA's (according to weapon section), one combat robot or tank (again according to weapon section), fleet of trucks, trailers, motor homes and APC's (with only half the vehicles armed and armored) with the officers having their own personal vehicle that is armed with two more weapons
Equipment: basic cybernetics, communications gear, computers, sensors and all kinds of basic goodies (up to 25,000 credits worth) for each soldier plus and inexpensive uniform for each soldier (with plenty of replacements), plus the communications section gives the group more electronics to spread around
Pay: and even the most base guy there gets paid 400 a month (without combat pay), and most equipment and weapons are replaced by the company

Just taking that setup from above, turning it into a mercenary group that are chasing the players, I could reap a lot of death with the guys. They have scouts to track the party. When the main body of the mercs catch up to the players, they open up with a tank (what I chose), one Glitter Boy (one of two PA's) and two heavy gunners (one using automatic grenade launcher out of mercenaries, the other NG plasma cannon). Meanwhile, the Sidewinder SAMAS (the other PA choice) and two of the officers on NG 480 Turbo hovercycles (with dual laser cannon turret on front) and armed with NG-LG6 rifles, Wilk's-Remi "Big Man" laser pistols and 3 plasma hand grenade (and another 12 for their rifles) outflank the players. Meanwhile, the slower APC's (carrying the rest of the soldiers) pull up behind cover nearby and the soldiers jump out to lay down suppresive fire on the players.

Wow, I better stop. This is scaring me. I could kill the players right here with just this.

But I think I just proved a point, this is the smallest of the mercenary groups in the book. But these guys are super bad-a**ed. If this is any indication of the tables for city creation, then even a small city can be made to be quite defensible.

Oh I know you can, but that was never the POINT of this post. The POINT was the AVERAGE township, the AVERAGE place you come across DOESN'T.

I could make a tiny 100 man Nema facility that might make Chi-Town flinch. However, places like that require so much suspended disbelief and they're certainly not the average town.

[Icefalcon]

Oh I know you can, but that was never the POINT of this post. The POINT was the AVERAGE township, the AVERAGE place you come across DOESN'T.

I could make a tiny 100 man Nema facility that might make Chi-Town flinch. However, places like that require so much suspended disbelief and they're certainly not the average town.

True, very true. My only point however, was that by using those point buy, city/town creation rules, even the lesser towns (if they don't care or really wouldn't have) much else will have more than 2-4 MDC weapons. Granted I have not looked at the creation rules for cities/towns, but even the main book says that most farms (which include several families and hired help) will have one to two MDC weapons and probably twice that in very light armors.

[Akashic Soldier]

Oh I know you can, but that was never the POINT of this post. The POINT was the AVERAGE township, the AVERAGE place you come across DOESN'T.

I could make a tiny 100 man Nema facility that might make Chi-Town flinch. However, places like that require so much suspended disbelief and they're certainly not the average town.

True, very true. My only point however, was that by using those point buy, city/town creation rules, even the lesser towns (if they don't care or really wouldn't have) much else will have more than 2-4 MDC weapons. Granted I have not looked at the creation rules for cities/towns, but even the main book says that most farms (which include several families and hired help) will have one to two MDC weapons and probably twice that in very light armors.

Those numbers seem about right, I think its safe to assume though that most small towns probably give their M.D. weapons to their farmers or people that guard their farmland, since without it they're seriously screwed. Most of those small towns only have (at most) 1D4 months worth of food at any time (Remember, at MOST; as in, if they've had a good crop).

[Icefalcon]

No disagreement here. It is only in the larger towns and cities where the prevailence of MD weapons becomes unbalanced.

[calto40k]

so who came up with these averages? I'm pretty sure that this is all in how "you" run your game not how the rest of the palladium population runs their games. Like considering small towns to be the equivalent of tribal villages in third world nations just doesn't cut it.

[Icefalcon]

All of the numbers are from Palladium products.

[Comrade Corsarius]

I disagree. It's no longer a post-apocalyptic world. It's a post-post-apocalyptic world.

There are full-blown nations existing, as well as regular international trade (re: Wilks, NG, GAW, Chipwell, and anyone else who has a storefront/rep in just about any damn town you can think of). Sure, it might be more 19th century than 21st in some ways, but it's not uncivilised chaos.

[Icefalcon]

See, there is the problem. All Palladium books are contradictory to each other. On the one hand, they tell you MD weapons are rare. On the other, there is a proliferation of MD weapons being thrown about in the books and in the explanations of people and places around the world. They give you examples (such as the farmer and small towns of these weapons being rare) and then in the next book (like New West) where most people have an MD weapon and MDC armor of some type and if they do not, they can lay their hands on one easy enough.

[calto40k]

take it like this as the years in rifts have gone on some of the info in the older books has been updated

[Noon]

Kinda suspect the 'no, they'd have more MD weapons' arguers of simply gaming ambiguity in the text until the average towns has exactly enough MD weapons to do whatever it is they do in their game.

I'm sure that amongst the people who'd argue they'd have more, if they were to actually write down the amount then reveal it some would go 'oh god no, they wouldn't have THAT many MD weapons'.

Quorum, I suspect not.

[Nightmask]

Kinda suspect the 'no, they'd have more MD weapons' arguers of simply gaming ambiguity in the text until the average towns has exactly enough MD weapons to do whatever it is they do in their game.

I'm sure that amongst the people who'd argue they'd have more, if they were to actually write down the amount then reveal it some would go 'oh god no, they wouldn't have THAT many MD weapons'.

Quorum, I suspect not.

One could consider that an example of 'survival of the fittest', the only places that managed to survive to the point that the PC group ever encounters them are generally those that had a few MD weapons available for some reason. So what the players see are primarily just those that were successful, the rest either wiped out or just never encountered by them to make note of. Perception-wise it would look as if everyone's got MD weapons and armor when they don't.

[calto40k]

Kinda suspect the 'no, they'd have more MD weapons' arguers of simply gaming ambiguity in the text until the average towns has exactly enough MD weapons to do whatever it is they do in their game.

I'm sure that amongst the people who'd argue they'd have more, if they were to actually write down the amount then reveal it some would go 'oh god no, they wouldn't have THAT many MD weapons'.

Quorum, I suspect not.

One could consider that an example of 'survival of the fittest', the only places that managed to survive to the point that the PC group ever encounters them are generally those that had a few MD weapons available for some reason. So what the players see are primarily just those that were successful, the rest either wiped out or just never encountered by them to make note of. Perception-wise it would look as if everyone's got MD weapons and armor when they don't.

I think nightmask just hit the nail on the head there

[Akashic Soldier]

One could consider that an example of 'survival of the fittest', the only places that managed to survive to the point that the PC group ever encounters them are generally those that had a few MD weapons available for some reason. So what the players see are primarily just those that were successful, the rest either wiped out or just never encountered by them to make note of. Perception-wise it would look as if everyone's got MD weapons and armor when they don't.

Except that then that is what would be listed in the book as the lowest example of a surviving society, and it is not. The problem with this assumption is that you are given a very detailed range from "lowest" and least likely to survive to the most successful. I'm just drawing a line down the middle here and even being a little "generous" by using "Barbarian Settlement" which is more naturally predisposed towards combat and violence.

Albeit, you could only build small town fortresses that have giant robots and massive weapon catches, but the selection process is specific and detailed and anyone familiar with Chaos Earth knows that not every single town in Rifts Earth is going to have a massive underground weapon's storage unit, let alone that every single one would have one, it survived, they found it, and utilize its weapons. Maybe some do... but you know... those guys are the lucky exception, not the generic settlement.

Again, remember I did say that a town can buy "heroes" which are important folks with O.C.C.s as part of their package and those people would start with M.D. weapons with their starting equipment... but... again, that is like what? 1-6 people? It really depends on how you spend your points but "heroes" and exceptional people eat a lot of your points.

[Pepsi Jedi]

This has always been a problem with -perception- in the game.

The game tells you straight up that MD weapons and weaponry are rare.

Then it gives you 500 OOC's that all start with MD Weapons an 100s of pages of MD Weapons and armor. This leads people to think that they're common. It's actually difficult to find SDC weapons. So people think they're just everywhere, as about half of all rifts books are weapons, armor, bots (Or spells that also do MD.)

Thing is, they're still rare. People think the MD is just common because all the PC's have it. In reality the PC's are the rare things. For every "Adventurer" With MD weapons and gear there's a few 100 people that have never touched and MD weapon. Yes merc groups can cause alot of damage, but they are much like PC's few and far between. We just like to think of them being more than they are because we've had books dedicated to them. For every 50 merc's there's probably thousands of normal every day people that could never save the credits for hundreds of thousands if not millions of credits worth of gear.

The 'Average communities" That AK is talking about are by and large exactly as he's presented them. A couple of suits of light MD armor and a small handfull of MD weapons, likely lower end, for 'defense'... and by that it's "Oh man there's some MD gopher's eating the crops. Let's climb a tree and shoot them. Mind your aim that traveling operator with the eclip recharger won't be back through here for two months". The small communities often live by luck and the blessing that MD creatures usually eat MD creatures so SDC creatures aren't worth the time.

A small community can be held hostage by a guy in MD armor with a wilks pistol. If they don't have a way to stop the guy himself (( or worse, 2 or 3 brigands with matching gear))

You see this around the edges. The tales of the cyberknights being heroes of the land, because they go around SAVING communities from such things. be it a few thugs with MD armor raping and pillaging a town, or a random monster that's eating little girls and demanding tribute (( Bandits can demand tribute too))

It's just a perception issue because the books are ----full--------- of MD stuff.... for that top 1% of people that have access and use it. It seems to be 50... 60.. 70% of the books.. but allllllllllllllll that gun porn and robots and tanks and stuff we see, are in the hand of like 1% of the population. If not less.

[Akashic Soldier]

This has always been a problem with -perception- in the game.

The game tells you straight up that MD weapons and weaponry are rare.

Then it gives you 500 OOC's that all start with MD Weapons an 100s of pages of MD Weapons and armor. This leads people to think that they're common. It's actually difficult to find SDC weapons. So people think they're just everywhere, as about half of all rifts books are weapons, armor, bots (Or spells that also do MD.)

Thing is, they're still rare. People think the MD is just common because all the PC's have it. In reality the PC's are the rare things. For every "Adventurer" With MD weapons and gear there's a few 100 people that have never touched and MD weapon. Yes merc groups can cause alot of damage, but they are much like PC's few and far between. We just like to think of them being more than they are because we've had books dedicated to them. For every 50 merc's there's probably thousands of normal every day people that could never save the credits for hundreds of thousands if not millions of credits worth of gear.

The 'Average communities" That AK is talking about are by and large exactly as he's presented them. A couple of suits of light MD armor and a small handfull of MD weapons, likely lower end, for 'defense'... and by that it's "Oh man there's some MD gopher's eating the crops. Let's climb a tree and shoot them. Mind your aim that traveling operator with the eclip recharger won't be back through here for two months". The small communities often live by luck and the blessing that MD creatures usually eat MD creatures so SDC creatures aren't worth the time.

A small community can be held hostage by a guy in MD armor with a wilks pistol. If they don't have a way to stop the guy himself (( or worse, 2 or 3 brigands with matching gear))

You see this around the edges. The tales of the cyberknights being heroes of the land, because they go around SAVING communities from such things. be it a few thugs with MD armor raping and pillaging a town, or a random monster that's eating little girls and demanding tribute (( Bandits can demand tribute too))

It's just a perception issue because the books are ----full--------- of MD stuff.... for that top 1% of people that have access and use it. It seems to be 50... 60.. 70% of the books.. but allllllllllllllll that gun porn and robots and tanks and stuff we see, are in the hand of like 1% of the population. If not less.

Exactly, and I finally found "numbers" that confirm this. So I wanted to share.

[Noon]

Seems like it'd be interesting to write a program that simulated several hundred miles of wilderness. Have every individual be a tiny dot on it, living their life as best they can and have variables, like MD weapons availability on a dial. Turn it up or down, see how low it can go before settlements are tissue paper like and simply leave the map a wasteland of monsters and ruins.

[calto40k]

really doesn't seem plausible that the human race would have even survived with the way you guys are saying MD gear is so rare, like people would be just picked off immediately when say a md chipmunk goes on a foraging mission, also you don't seem to notice the older books had less stuff as it was the world finally emerging from the dark ages and starting to get back on its feet, compared to 109pa when more stuff has been found by companies like bandito arms and their contemporaries. I don't disagree that some little shack town isnt going to have much in the way of MD gear, but a normal sized town would at least have a few md rifles and vibroblades to fend off the horde of monsters unless they only planned on living for what an hour?

[Icefalcon]

really doesn't seem plausible that the human race would have even survived with the way you guys are saying MD gear is so rare, like people would be just picked off immediately when say a md chipmunk goes on a foraging mission, also you don't seem to notice the older books had less stuff as it was the world finally emerging from the dark ages and starting to get back on its feet, compared to 109pa when more stuff has been found by companies like bandito arms and their contemporaries. I don't disagree that some little shack town isnt going to have much in the way of MD gear, but a normal sized town would at least have a few md rifles and vibroblades to fend off the horde of monsters unless they only planned on living for what an hour?

That is what I have been saying. The books are contradictory on the subject.

[Pepsi Jedi]

really doesn't seem plausible that the human race would have even survived with the way you guys are saying MD gear is so rare, like people would be just picked off immediately when say a md chipmunk goes on a foraging mission, also you don't seem to notice the older books had less stuff as it was the world finally emerging from the dark ages and starting to get back on its feet, compared to 109pa when more stuff has been found by companies like bandito arms and their contemporaries. I don't disagree that some little shack town isnt going to have much in the way of MD gear, but a normal sized town would at least have a few md rifles and vibroblades to fend off the horde of monsters unless they only planned on living for what an hour?

Well like I said this has been explained in a few places.

1) The world population is a small fraction of what it once was. So --most-- people have died out. It's just tha it's been 300 years since the event happend. Roughly 200 years of chaos, and 100 to 110 years of rebuilding. Even counting that, people are few and far between.

2) The explination on why MD stuff hasn't just totally irradicated SDC stuff has been given too. Long story short, MD stuff eats MD stuff, not SDC stuff. SDC stuff would be like trying to survive on rice cakes or rice krispies (No milk, no sugar) for an MD creature. you 'could' do it, but it would rapidly lead to you weakening and eventually dieing as it just doesn't have what you need to keep going and what not. So more or less, MD creatures prey on MD creatures and what ever sdc creature that's too stupid to get out of the way of the critter/monster.

3) That while the wilderness is full of monsters and a dangerous place, it's not like they stand shoulder to shoulder. You could travel weeks or months and not see an MD critter. Then go over a hill and see a city of gargoyles or something where there's 1000s of them. We play 'Adventurers" or "heroes" So of COURSE we "luck out" and run into the MD stuff all the time. If your GM made you rp endless weeks of travel with nothing but purple butterflys and the occassional squirrel to see you'd get bored rapidly. so they toss intresting stuff at your chars'.

4) People devalue or undervalue, or under estimate MD weapons. They go "MD armor needs MD weapons to get through there fore all people should have MD weapons. They quickly forget (( and the setting "SHOWN" Doesn't help)) That the very weakest MD weapon, a little 1d4md laser pistol is a stronger weapon than a modern day, 2012 BATTLE TANK's main gun. Your little noisy cricket does more damage with a simple pull of the trigger and a soft click. than an M1A1 tank. Not everyone is going to HAVE that kinda firepower.

Again, this is a matter of 'perception', in rifts.

The text tells you that MD creatures, and MD weapons are rare. Then it goes on to tell you in great great detail, about the 1000s of things that fall into that rare catagory. Be it MD pistols, rifles, rail guns, or monsters, aliens, D-Bees and supernatural.

It tells you one thing, then shows you another. And it doesn't really contridct itself. It just is easy to lose sight of what you're told. When you're told MD weapons and critters might make up 5% of the things on the planet andd 95% of them are SDC and normal, but the book Details 99% MD and only 1% SDC, it's not 'SHOWING' you how things really are. Even though it's told you that that 99% of stuff you're seeing falls in that minute 5% of the planet.

It does this for the 'fun' or 'wow' factor. In a world where a laser pistol can vaporize someone's head or punch a basket ball size hole in a mans chest, they (Palladium) Don't detail a bunch of SDC Weapons that can be 100% defeated by the weakest MD material. (( Check the back of one of the dino swamp books for Northern Gun produced MD Fatigues. Just... MD BDU's. They'll even make you custom patterns. Not a lot of MD but if they can let you shrug off all the SDC bullets that could possibly be fired at you and even a (weak) MD blast or two... NICE!! My char's all tend to buy some ASAP))

That's what people see. That slanted 'perception'. And with the way the books are set up it's very easy to see why they perceive things that way, even if they're told straight up that's not how it is.

[Pepsi Jedi]

really doesn't seem plausible that the human race would have even survived with the way you guys are saying MD gear is so rare, like people would be just picked off immediately when say a md chipmunk goes on a foraging mission, also you don't seem to notice the older books had less stuff as it was the world finally emerging from the dark ages and starting to get back on its feet, compared to 109pa when more stuff has been found by companies like bandito arms and their contemporaries. I don't disagree that some little shack town isnt going to have much in the way of MD gear, but a normal sized town would at least have a few md rifles and vibroblades to fend off the horde of monsters unless they only planned on living for what an hour?

That is what I have been saying. The books are contradictory on the subject.

Not really "Contradictory". They just tell you one thing and then detail the 'exception to the rule' so extensively that what they've told you the 'rule' is, it's easily forgotten.

I explain it a bit in the above post.

[calto40k]

my main issue though is that with the progress of time md weaponry and other gear would become a bit more common place. Like how it used to be that if you were rich or you scrimped and saved you were able to buy one of the first cars, but after less than 30 years most people in america owned a car

[Icefalcon]

really doesn't seem plausible that the human race would have even survived with the way you guys are saying MD gear is so rare, like people would be just picked off immediately when say a md chipmunk goes on a foraging mission, also you don't seem to notice the older books had less stuff as it was the world finally emerging from the dark ages and starting to get back on its feet, compared to 109pa when more stuff has been found by companies like bandito arms and their contemporaries. I don't disagree that some little shack town isnt going to have much in the way of MD gear, but a normal sized town would at least have a few md rifles and vibroblades to fend off the horde of monsters unless they only planned on living for what an hour?

That is what I have been saying. The books are contradictory on the subject.

Not really "Contradictory". They just tell you one thing and then detail the 'exception to the rule' so extensively that what they've told you the 'rule' is, it's easily forgotten.

I explain it a bit in the above post.

To add to what you said Pespi, let me introduce economics into the mix. Most "wilderness" people have no way of making enough money in a year to even recharge that e-clip. Most farmers might have an "old" MD rifle they had passed done in the family. They certainly cannot afford to go buy a brand new NG super-duper-shiny kill-o-matic weapon when their old one breaks, especially when that money could be spent on a tractor to help plow the field to replace the horses that were eaten by that passing dragon the week before.

[Killer Cyborg]

really doesn't seem plausible that the human race would have even survived with the way you guys are saying MD gear is so rare, like people would be just picked off immediately when say a md chipmunk goes on a foraging mission, also you don't seem to notice the older books had less stuff as it was the world finally emerging from the dark ages and starting to get back on its feet, compared to 109pa when more stuff has been found by companies like bandito arms and their contemporaries. I don't disagree that some little shack town isnt going to have much in the way of MD gear, but a normal sized town would at least have a few md rifles and vibroblades to fend off the horde of monsters unless they only planned on living for what an hour?

That is what I have been saying. The books are contradictory on the subject.

Not really "Contradictory". They just tell you one thing and then detail the 'exception to the rule' so extensively that what they've told you the 'rule' is, it's easily forgotten.

I explain it a bit in the above post.

Nailed it.

The thing is, people don't have this problem with other games.
They don't read Heroes Unlimited, and assume that the majority of the world have super powers.
Or even necessarily the majority of cities/towns.
At least, I've never seen anybody play that way.

[Pepsi Jedi]

my main issue though is that with the progress of time md weaponry and other gear would become a bit more common place. Like how it used to be that if you were rich or you scrimped and saved you were able to buy one of the first cars, but after less than 30 years most people in america owned a car

The progress of rifts has been 7 years in the past two decades of real time. In that time you actually DID see an upgrade in weapons. CS war campaign showed it.

That's another perception problem. We've had over 20 years of rifts, but the TIME LINE in game, has been about 7 years. from 102, 103 PA to 109 PA.

It's not THAT long in a post apoc setting.

[Damian Magecraft]

Kevin himself addresses this perception issue as well in one of the books (IIRC The Adventure Guide)...
They do not write about the"mundane" because they do not believe that would be interesting to the fans.

[flatline]

All of this could be solved if we just did away with the MD system entirely in Rifts.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

All of this could be solved if we just did away with the MD system entirely in Rifts.

--flatline

Yeah... but that would suck.

[Akashic Soldier]

I think your scenario was a bit hosed. Even The smallest town will have a Sheriff or other lawman in it, which is built on points not spent in the system.
For Example, Lord Frommulaine is the Lord of his small town, and he has an insane cache of Slain MD Adventurers who thought he died...

The settlement was ruled by a Shaman and a group of "high men" that were an order of revered hunters. They had tribal law and what the Shaman says went. Their other leaders had been made rather irreverent because he was controlling them via drug addiction with a plant extract only he knew how to replicate so none of them were really that exceptional.

[Akashic Soldier]

In either case, the shaman would have a spirit or two, Good or bad, Guarding him. The scenario was hosed ignoring those kind of things.

You have like three lines of a vague outline of what happened? (Though this topic isn't about the specific circumstance, it is about how rare M.D. weapons are).

That said, the Shaman was a 3rd Level Mystic. He couldn't summon the spirits to guard the village or anything like that. At best he could see it coming, but that didn't actually help them stop it at all... though I suspect nothing I say is going to change your mind or that your that your resistance on this subject has anything to do with 30+ Titan Raptors being able to slaughter a "defenseless" barbarian settlement over the course of a few days anyway.

[Akashic Soldier]

a 3rd level Mystic is not anymore then a young aprrentice 18-to 24 years of age, I don't remember the last time Anyone in the wilderness would Trust a young mage with as much as protecting them. Unlike D&D, in an apocalypse Setting, Nobody would Enshrine their care to a Young person unless that person had some sort of LEGACY, Or Wealth, or Obscene Power.

I rolled his level randomly. I got 3 out of a potential of 5 (using the rules as written). Plus, there are plenty of societies ruled by unwise leaders. Keep in mind, this guy could see the future, speak with spirits and was the only guy that knew the secret family recipe that allowed him to brew the drug that gave their warriors their incredible strength (and kept them addicted and easily controlled).

I think when you created the scenario you just didn't give any leeway to Versimilitude.

I didn't "create" the scenario. I made the village (mostly as a safe haven for the players) but the Juicer kept sleeping with all the menfolk's wives while they were hunting so they kicked him out and wouldn't let the PCs in (except for the seer " Fortuneteller" in the group. This goes exactly with their stats and outlook on magic (again in the above PDF).

You May have gone with raw numbers. .. You created the Mcguffin.

There were 1,100 people. The majority of their best hunters were trapped outside, ambushed and killed (because of the players distracting them with candy of all damn things ). Meanwhile, a lot of people had gathered for the return of their hunters in celebration of their success... while the players distracted their watchmen by distributing (or refusing to distribute) "outsider food" and so the Titan Raptors ran right in and started killing a lot of the unprepared townfolks. There were 30, they had between 4 and 5 attacks each, with a 20% mischance. This equates (on average) to 108 dead in the first 15 seconds... those that fled tried to get to bunkers and hiding places but the Raptors can track by scent and were on average three times faster than the average citizen and kill simply for the pleasure of it. The Shaman (who was there speaking in the center about how they were going to handle the juicer climbing their wall and sleeping with their women) tried to keep them at bay by using a repel animals spell (in his family amulet) but that only kept him and a few safe for about six hours before it wore off and the raptors broke into the hut and dismembered him.

It would be like Giving the keys of ownership to a town to a Barely out of the academy sheriff.

They were Dinosaur Swamp Barbarians. He reached the age of adulthood, the spirits "chose" him and he had magical and psychic powers no one else had and the family recipe and so they put in him in charge. Yes, he was rather "inexperienced" but he sat there settling disputes, smoking pot, and upholding ancient tradition. He didn't need to be a sorcerer on par with Merlin to do his job.

Levels actually mean something in palladium, Despite what the experience point system says.

I know.

A Character who has finished his apprenticeship or Rookie status has gone to level 4.

Actually, that character is level one. It is explained that low-level characters (people that are just getting into the early stages of their career) are level 1-5, medium level characters are experts weighing in around 5-10, while characters 11 and higher are living legends. This is talked about some in the Book of Heroes.

A 1st level character wouldn't be able to synthesize enough plants to drug an entire town, or if he has, would of reached lvl 6 or so.

Where the heck did you come up with that idea? Have I overlooked something?

Is there some sort of limit on things? Like, he couldn't just say... "Get me some Galco tube, some berble fruit and the Acati herb" to the gathers and then secretly mix them together to make a special spice for their food at 1st level? Isn't that just having the Botany skill and Professional level Brewing?

Alot of people with Old D&D Itis tend to populate towns with 0 level characters, just because the pc's are meant to do everything...
This just doesn't work for scenarios.

Actually, according to the "rules" as they are written in the adventure guide, most people are just ordinary "0 level" people. If you want exceptional people you have to spend points buying them (Like I did with the Shaman Mystic and the two Iron Wood Carpenters who were descended from the first men who made the great wall and gate that protected them!)

Were these guys useless? Of course not. Look at the town's population as its divided, many were hunters, many were gathers, some were nursemaids, some artists and tailers, many were traders that traded with the other barbarian towns.

I think your assumption here was that I wanted or planned for the town to die. That was never the case. More to the point, the town as it was started out was a believable barbarian settlement (as best I could recreate using the rules).

[Killer Cyborg]

a 3rd level Mystic is not anymore then a young aprrentice 18-to 24 years of age, I don't remember the last time Anyone in the wilderness would Trust a young mage with as much as protecting them. Unlike D&D, in an apocalypse Setting, Nobody would Enshrine their care to a Young person unless that person had some sort of LEGACY, Or Wealth, or Obscene Power.


I think when you created the scenario you just didn't give any leeway to Versimilitude.
You May have gone with raw numbers. .. You created the Mcguffin.
it would be like Giving the keys of ownership to a town to a Barely out of the academy sheriff.
Levels actually mean something in palladium, Despite what the experience point system says.

A Character who has finished his apprenticeship or Rookie status has gone to level 4.

A 1st level character wouldn't be able to synthesize enough plants to drug an entire town, or if he has, would of reached lvl 6 or so.

Alot of people with Old D&D Itis tend to populate towns with 0 level characters, just because the pc's are meant to do everything...
This just doesn't work for scenarios.

I'm not sure you know what a Maguffin is.

[Hystrix]

I think your scenario was a bit hosed. Even The smallest town will have a Sheriff or other lawman in it, which is built on points not spent in the system.
For Example, Lord Frommulaine is the Lord of his small town, and he has an insane cache of Slain MD Adventurers who thought he died...

Uh-uh. According to New West page 13, only 40% of small towns (under 600) even have any law enforcement at all. 70% of larger towns (1,000-6,000) have a sheriff and some deputies. So there are defiantly a number of communities without law enforcement.

Besides all that, I think a lot of people assume MD weapons are exclusively energy weapons. However there are alot of other types of MD weapons that are lower tech, but still do the job...sort of.

1. Vibro-blades. Rifts World Book 26: Dinosaur Swamp demonstrated the idea of a vibro-knife being strapped to a pole to make a vibro-spear. Either way, vibro-blades could be taken of dead bandits, CS Soldiers, or even acquired through trade. Vibro-blades would be rare, but a real possibility.

2. MD explosives. Homemade grenades, bombs, explosive arrows, traps all could be made from inexpensive substances. Not necessarily common, but easier to acquire than energy weapons.

3. MD conventional ammo. This would be a rare thing to acquire in the wilderness. However, Wellington Industries and Golden Age Weaponsmiths make a wide variety of ramjet and explosive ammo. The difference is the conventional slug throwers would be easier to maintain than energy weapons. Bandito Arms sells some relativity cheap muskets, and flintlock pistols that fire Big Bore ammo.

4. Magic. There aren't a ton of barbarian mages out there, but those that are there could have offensive spells that do MD.

5. Magic weapons. See Eco-Wizards from Dino-Swamp, or totem like weapons. All these are possible.

I'm not trying to say MD weapons are common (I'm in the "I think they are rare" camp). I'm trying to fight the idea that all MD weapons are the energy variety.

[dragonfett]

This has always been a problem with -perception- in the game.

The game tells you straight up that MD weapons and weaponry are rare.

Then it gives you 500 OOC's that all start with MD Weapons an 100s of pages of MD Weapons and armor. This leads people to think that they're common. It's actually difficult to find SDC weapons. So people think they're just everywhere, as about half of all rifts books are weapons, armor, bots (Or spells that also do MD.)

Thing is, they're still rare. People think the MD is just common because all the PC's have it. In reality the PC's are the rare things. For every "Adventurer" With MD weapons and gear there's a few 100 people that have never touched and MD weapon. Yes merc groups can cause alot of damage, but they are much like PC's few and far between. We just like to think of them being more than they are because we've had books dedicated to them. For every 50 merc's there's probably thousands of normal every day people that could never save the credits for hundreds of thousands if not millions of credits worth of gear.

The 'Average communities" That AK is talking about are by and large exactly as he's presented them. A couple of suits of light MD armor and a small handfull of MD weapons, likely lower end, for 'defense'... and by that it's "Oh man there's some MD gopher's eating the crops. Let's climb a tree and shoot them. Mind your aim that traveling operator with the eclip recharger won't be back through here for two months". The small communities often live by luck and the blessing that MD creatures usually eat MD creatures so SDC creatures aren't worth the time.

A small community can be held hostage by a guy in MD armor with a wilks pistol. If they don't have a way to stop the guy himself (( or worse, 2 or 3 brigands with matching gear))

You see this around the edges. The tales of the cyberknights being heroes of the land, because they go around SAVING communities from such things. be it a few thugs with MD armor raping and pillaging a town, or a random monster that's eating little girls and demanding tribute (( Bandits can demand tribute too))

It's just a perception issue because the books are ----full--------- of MD stuff.... for that top 1% of people that have access and use it. It seems to be 50... 60.. 70% of the books.. but allllllllllllllll that gun porn and robots and tanks and stuff we see, are in the hand of like 1% of the population. If not less.

So that means that we are the 1%? SWEET!

All kidding aside, what page number what that on for the random towns? I was looking at the Rifts Adventure Book and didn't see it. The only City Creation Rules that I know of come from Rifter 1 and states that those rules should not be used as hard numbers but rather as a guide.

Also there is the matter that you do not need MD weapons to do MD damage. You can take SD rifles and use Wellington's Ramjet rounds or take a chance and use Wilk's CFT laser rounds (the chance being that a normal SD weapon may melt from the round).

And just how did a Barbarian settlement wind up having a MD wall?

[Damian Magecraft]

What I'm saying is, unless you're using Victim rules, Even the Average towns person is a LEVEL of something.
be it City rats, or Vagabonds, or PEasants. Sure their skills might suck, but what they are not are 0 level characters who die if a flea hits them.
Especially if they'd old and feeble.
A Bar Room Drunk is probably a Mid Level Saloon Bum. he has some experience in combat, ... and has plenty of "Local knowledge"
... Now you say he's the New Shaman. WHERE IS THE OLD ONE? Where were the passed down Vestments?
Why the fSck would barbarians be lured away with Candy?
You Just chose scenarios outcomes that were absurd and then shocked that weapons were rare.


that would be like Me Commenting that Cuidad Juarez has No Defense against Chi ball Throwing Giant Apes that tower 60ft tall.. as if Every GM has those things running around in their campaign.

You got a Book and Page cite to back that claim?

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't like monkeys. *Shudders*

[Pepsi Jedi]

This has always been a problem with -perception- in the game.

The game tells you straight up that MD weapons and weaponry are rare.

Then it gives you 500 OOC's that all start with MD Weapons an 100s of pages of MD Weapons and armor. This leads people to think that they're common. It's actually difficult to find SDC weapons. So people think they're just everywhere, as about half of all rifts books are weapons, armor, bots (Or spells that also do MD.)

Thing is, they're still rare. People think the MD is just common because all the PC's have it. In reality the PC's are the rare things. For every "Adventurer" With MD weapons and gear there's a few 100 people that have never touched and MD weapon. Yes merc groups can cause alot of damage, but they are much like PC's few and far between. We just like to think of them being more than they are because we've had books dedicated to them. For every 50 merc's there's probably thousands of normal every day people that could never save the credits for hundreds of thousands if not millions of credits worth of gear.

The 'Average communities" That AK is talking about are by and large exactly as he's presented them. A couple of suits of light MD armor and a small handfull of MD weapons, likely lower end, for 'defense'... and by that it's "Oh man there's some MD gopher's eating the crops. Let's climb a tree and shoot them. Mind your aim that traveling operator with the eclip recharger won't be back through here for two months". The small communities often live by luck and the blessing that MD creatures usually eat MD creatures so SDC creatures aren't worth the time.

A small community can be held hostage by a guy in MD armor with a wilks pistol. If they don't have a way to stop the guy himself (( or worse, 2 or 3 brigands with matching gear))

You see this around the edges. The tales of the cyberknights being heroes of the land, because they go around SAVING communities from such things. be it a few thugs with MD armor raping and pillaging a town, or a random monster that's eating little girls and demanding tribute (( Bandits can demand tribute too))

It's just a perception issue because the books are ----full--------- of MD stuff.... for that top 1% of people that have access and use it. It seems to be 50... 60.. 70% of the books.. but allllllllllllllll that gun porn and robots and tanks and stuff we see, are in the hand of like 1% of the population. If not less.

So that means that we are the 1%? SWEET!

lol Yeah I thought people would like that.

[Akashic Soldier]

What I'm saying is, unless you're using Victim rules, Even the Average towns person is a LEVEL of something.
be it City rats, or Vagabonds, or PEasants. Sure their skills might suck, but what they are not are 0 level characters who die if a flea hits them.
Especially if they'd old and feeble.
A Bar Room Drunk is probably a Mid Level Saloon Bum. he has some experience in combat, ... and has plenty of "Local knowledge"
... Now you say he's the New Shaman. WHERE IS THE OLD ONE? Where were the passed down Vestments?
Why the fSck would barbarians be lured away with Candy?
You Just chose scenarios outcomes that were absurd and then shocked that weapons were rare.


that would be like Me Commenting that Cuidad Juarez has No Defense against Chi ball Throwing Giant Apes that tower 60ft tall.. as if Every GM has those things running around in their campaign.

And just how did a Barbarian settlement wind up having a MD wall?

Forgive this tiny post, I was mauled by a dog like an hour ago so now I am one handing this thing.

They built a wall out of ironwood around their settlement (See Dinoswamp) over the course of a few decades. Imagine that big-ass wall out of King Kong.

Rap, and I am telling you that according to "the rules" each one of those guys who are actually important and not background scenery cost some of the towns points. On average 5 and considering that you have to use that to buy population and such too, that works out to be a lot. I could only afford THREE guys who were standout and impressive guys. They still had militia and such but they were all hunters wielding S.D.C. weapons.

As for why they were lured away, because it specifically says that they liked food that is sweet and does not taste like dead freaking dinosaur or roasted swamp rat and will trade for it? Long story short, he had a limited supply so they started a "bidding war" over the candy that quickly escalated to violence between some of the barbarians as they fought over it since they view it as having as much value as eco-weapons or ironwood and almost as rare.

And before you try the "If they do not have M.D. weapons how do they hunt dinosaurs" argument, let me direct you to Dinosaur Swamp where it specifically explains that M.D. weapons are unless in hunting because they don't leave much behind so that the native barbarians use traps to kill them. Since there were no traps INSIDE THEIR TOWN where their women and children lived, their defenses were limited and at best they could try to get into the Pre-Rifts bunkers that were still left over. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, the Titans Raptors were intelligent (8+1D6; not animal intelligence like all other dinosaurs!), stronger, faster, and were doing M.D. with their attacks to S.D.C. humans. It was a blood bath, people were LITERALLY dying with a touch. They were being kicked in half, having entire limbs bitten off, having their throats slit by the sharp sudden lash of their tails.

Those in M.D. armor (which were few and far between) were quickly overpowered (they had 32 M.D.C. on average as standard M.D. hide armor; I rolled once for all 200 suits) and slaughtered. Why? Because putting on the suit of armor takes time (minutes or a minimum of 5 rounds for Men-At-Arms; most of whom were trapped outside) and so many people would have been found and killed in the middle of suiting up or while hiding under their beds with their children praying they wouldn't have been heard.

[Akashic Soldier]

Given that the adventure is in Dinosaur Swamp, which has one large town (if you want to be nice and call Char a town, rather then a medium size hive of scum and villainy), MD ranged weapons other then bows, thrown weapons, and slings are readily unavailable. Building an MDC wall isn't a real issue if the Barbarians have access to SteelTree wood (MDC wood), or Eco-Wizardy and dinosaur bones. MD tech weapons/TW weapons are going to be far more common north of the swamp and on the coast.

Steeltree, that is it. Not ironwood. Its because we've been talking about that spell the last few days on the board.
I know what I mean, sorry for the miscommunication guys.