Rules Question: Paired Weapons and 4 arms...

[Hendrik]

Hi,

I have a little rules question. I have a Nightbane PC in my group who has 4 arms, 2 of them weapon hands (Wolverine like claws) and is versed in the use of 2 short swords. He also has the W.P. Paired Weapons, which I allow for Nightbane as well.

How would you handle that?

Cheers
Hendrik

[Damian Magecraft]

Hi,

I have a little rules question. I have a Nightbane PC in my group who has 4 arms, 2 of them weapon hands (Wolverine like claws) and is versed in the use of 2 short swords. He also has the W.P. Paired Weapons, which I allow for Nightbane as well.

How would you handle that?

Cheers
Hendrik

In this particular case I would rule that the paired so applies to the non-weapon hands.
Paired does not apply to natural weapons.

[Hendrik]

Paired Weapons does not apply to natural weapons
Elegant, thanks. I recall something like that. Do you have a reference, please?

[Hendrik]

As another case: let us assume the Nightbane had Paired Weapons with daggers, 4 arms and now 4 daggers. How would you handle that?

[Damian Magecraft]

As another case: let us assume the Nightbane had Paired Weapons with daggers, 4 arms and now 4 daggers. How would you handle that?

Personally I would require paired WP for each pair of arms...
But I think that just one paired is all that is required by the rules...

[Johnathan]

As another case: let us assume the Nightbane had Paired Weapons with daggers, 4 arms and now 4 daggers. How would you handle that?

Personally I would require paired WP for each pair of arms...
But I think that just one paired is all that is required by the rules...

I would agree with Damian Magecraft on this one. That, logically, it would require the user to have paired weapons taken twice (One for each pair of arms) but, according to the rules, there is no such requirement.

A few side thoughts on this topic. A Nightbane with 4 arms would probably need some training in the use of their additional arms. Here's the problem with that, even if a Bane was trained in paired weapons in their facade form, that would be with just his two primary hands, not their secondary pair that appears in their morphus form.
- That means the Bane would have to train in their Morphus form to accomodate their new appendages.
- This presents it's own unique problem since, if the Bane maintains his morphus for too long... he/she/it risks detection from other critters.

Rahu-Men, a race of four-armed giants NOT native to the Nightbane-verse, do NOT have to take paired weapons for each set of arms... but... they were BORN having multiple arms, so it would make sense for them to NOT have to train twice as hard in using their "additional appendages".

Just my thoughts...

[Blindscout]

As another case: let us assume the Nightbane had Paired Weapons with daggers, 4 arms and now 4 daggers. How would you handle that?

Personally I would require paired WP for each pair of arms...
But I think that just one paired is all that is required by the rules...

I would agree with Damian Magecraft on this one. That, logically, it would require the user to have paired weapons taken twice (One for each pair of arms) but, according to the rules, there is no such requirement.

A few side thoughts on this topic. A Nightbane with 4 arms would probably need some training in the use of their additional arms. Here's the problem with that, even if a Bane was trained in paired weapons in their facade form, that would be with just his two primary hands, not their secondary pair that appears in their morphus form.
- That means the Bane would have to train in their Morphus form to accomodate their new appendages.
- This presents it's own unique problem since, if the Bane maintains his morphus for too long... he/she/it risks detection from other critters.

Rahu-Men, a race of four-armed giants NOT native to the Nightbane-verse, do NOT have to take paired weapons for each set of arms... but... they were BORN having multiple arms, so it would make sense for them to NOT have to train twice as hard in using their "additional appendages".

Just my thoughts...

I could see an argument for the 'Bane being able to use their arms with the same proficiency as a Rahu, in that regardless of the Facade's Hand to Hand skill (or lack thereof) they will have H2H Martial Arts in Morphus. So the Morphus comes equipped with heightened combat skills the the person may not have had any practice with in their life. I don't see it as that much of a stretch for them to use their third and fourth arms with a high degree of proficiency.

Also take into account that if they grow a prehensile tail or wings as a part of their Morphus they apparently know how to use them just fine(unless I missed some kind of learning curve penalty for winged flight and prehensile tail). So in my eyes that also sets a precedent for additional limbs being able to be used at the level of proficiency of one born with them.

[Hendrik]

Thank you, Damian, Jonathan and Blindscout.

Natural weapons:

Great argument, to which I agree, is that natural weapons cannot be paired weapons. Solves one of my problems.

Now, to the non-natural weapons:

The issue with the Rahu-Man argument is that the rules handle Rahu-man 4 arm attacks as natural/special to the creature and not subject to the WP Paired Weapons rule (IIRC), i.e. basically treating Rahu-men as "animals" with "natural attacks", but subject Nightbane as all characters to the normal rules. In so far I think the Rahu-Man is an excellent as well as a bad example.

It is an excellent example because it illustrates what a person born with 4 arms can achieve. I agree with the line of argument that a Nightbane (whatever they are) was raised as a Man, a creature with "only" two arms/hands, not four. Therefore, I guess coordination will be a witch and a Nightbane should be able to use the extra arms "normally" but not like a trained 4 arm fighter. At least not from the beginning.

You also made a superb argument by asking why then can a Nightbane use e.g. a scoprion tail adroitly, should he then not also be able to use the arms for full effect? I think the logical answer could be: yes, he should be able to do that. The consequence then would have to be that he either needs 1 W.P. Paired Weapons or two, one for each set of arms makes a lot of sense to me. That would also cover the training aspect raised above as the extra WP PW would represent that. Maybe one should say, following that logic, that a Nightbane cannot gain the second WP PW (for the second set of arms) before some time has passed (as a Nightbane), i.e. not before he can "buy" the second WP PW with a skill slot gained at a higher level.

All that said, I think it is extremely overpowering to allow 4 weapons. That would essentially turn the Nightbane into a little Kali. Nice, but mayhap a tad ueberpowered (which I know is very, very relative with nightbanes). I am still of a mind to say: "Nightbane with more than one set of arms can only use one WP Paired Weapons at a time and such covers only the use of 2 weapons at once as per the rules. A Nightbane with more than two arms/hands cannot use more than 2 melee weapons at a time, unless expressly specified so in the nightbane forms etc. section" or something to that effect.

Difficult question that. I think it boils down basically to "do not allow it because it overpowers the WP Paired Weapons" (bold answer two) or "logic says it should be possible, let's find a rule" (bold answer 1). I think what you came up with is great.

What about guns?

The same nightbane could, of course, shoot 4 pistols at a time, right? Would you handle that as a wild shot (-6) as shooting two pistols at a time would be handled or would you give an even worse modifier, -10 for example?

Kind regards
Hendrik

[Blindscout]

Thank you, Damian, Jonathan and Blindscout.
Bitte Sehr
Natural weapons:

Great argument, to which I agree, is that natural weapons cannot be paired weapons. Solves one of my problems.

Now, to the non-natural weapons:

The issue with the Rahu-Man argument is that the rules handle Rahu-man 4 arm attacks as natural/special to the creature and not subject to the WP Paired Weapons rule (IIRC), i.e. basically treating Rahu-men as "animals" with "natural attacks", but subject Nightbane as all characters to the normal rules. In so far I think the Rahu-Man is an excellent as well as a bad example.

It is an excellent example because it illustrates what a person born with 4 arms can achieve. I agree with the line of argument that a Nightbane (whatever they are) was raised as a Man, a creature with "only" two arms/hands, not four. Therefore, I guess coordination will be a witch and a Nightbane should be able to use the extra arms "normally" but not like a trained 4 arm fighter. At least not from the beginning.

You also made a superb argument by asking why then can a Nightbane use e.g. a scoprion tail adroitly, should he then not also be able to use the arms for full effect? I think the logical answer could be: yes, he should be able to do that. The consequence then would have to be that he either needs 1 W.P. Paired Weapons or two, one for each set of arms makes a lot of sense to me. That would also cover the training aspect raised above as the extra WP PW would represent that. Maybe one should say, following that logic, that a Nightbane cannot gain the second WP PW (for the second set of arms) before some time has passed (as a Nightbane), i.e. not before he can "buy" the second WP PW with a skill slot gained at a higher level.

I think this is the better compromise. It is not a hard, fast yes or no. It allows for future growth, which is always good imo, and it requires the player to decide whether or not those extra attacks are worth the sacrifice of another skill slot

All that said, I think it is extremely overpowering to allow 4 weapons. That would essentially turn the Nightbane into a little Kali. Nice, but mayhap a tad ueberpowered (which I know is very, very relative with nightbanes). I am still of a mind to say: "Nightbane with more than one set of arms can only use one WP Paired Weapons at a time and such covers only the use of 2 weapons at once as per the rules. A Nightbane with more than two arms/hands cannot use more than 2 melee weapons at a time, unless expressly specified so in the nightbane forms etc. section" or something to that effect.

Difficult question that. I think it boils down basically to "do not allow it because it overpowers the WP Paired Weapons" (bold answer two) or "logic says it should be possible, let's find a rule" (bold answer 1). I think what you came up with is great.

What about guns?

The same nightbane could, of course, shoot 4 pistols at a time, right? Would you handle that as a wild shot (-6) as shooting two pistols at a time would be handled or would you give an even worse modifier, -10 for example?

I've tried shooting two guns at once IRL. I have trained myself to shoot with my off-hand with nearly the same level of proficiency I have with my main hand. I found it extremely difficult to coordinate actually hit my target. The big issue that I found with two gun firing is that I could only focus on one sight picture at a time. I was much better off just shooting each pistol one at a time. Maybe if I had laser sights it would be easier. I'll see what I can do to try that out and let you know how it goes .

Unless they have, for some reason, the sharpshooting specialties from RIFTS, I would use the -6 for two guns at once and -10 for all four. Ballistic weapons are a completely different ballgame from melee weapons.

Kind regards
Hendrik

Hope this helps!

[Icefalcon]

As another case: let us assume the Nightbane had Paired Weapons with daggers, 4 arms and now 4 daggers. How would you handle that?

I would rule all arms would have to have the same pairing. With four daggers it would work. It would also work with two swords and two shields.

[Shark_Force]

i would allow the WP paired gained from their morphus form HtH:Martial Arts at level 7 to count for all limbs, because it's supposed to be an instinctive fighting ability and it makes little sense for a four-armed person to have the instinctive ability to only use two arms while the other pair just kinda sit there useless.

otherwise, i don't think i'd allow it. it's not like you can just go to a course on how to use a sword in each of your four hands at the local SCA or anything like that, after all. where exactly does one go to learn the skill, when frankly even amongst nightbane only a tiny fraction would have the ability to even *try* to develop a fighting technique based around it.

(for rahu-men, it makes sense... everyone has 4 arms, and they'd all look at you funny if you asked for training on how to use only 2 of your arms for fighting).

[Damian Magecraft]

i would allow the WP paired gained from their morphus form HtH:Martial Arts at level 7 to count for all limbs, because it's supposed to be an instinctive fighting ability and it makes little sense for a four-armed person to have the instinctive ability to only use two arms while the other pair just kinda sit there useless.

otherwise, i don't think i'd allow it. it's not like you can just go to a course on how to use a sword in each of your four hands at the local SCA or anything like that, after all. where exactly does one go to learn the skill, when frankly even amongst nightbane only a tiny fraction would have the ability to even *try* to develop a fighting technique based around it.

(for rahu-men, it makes sense... everyone has 4 arms, and they'd all look at you funny if you asked for training on how to use only 2 of your arms for fighting).

while the Rahu-man is a good example for this question...
The Jeridu (6 arms) is a better example their write up specifically mentions that they get WP paired as a Racial ability

[Hendrik]

Thank you, Damian, Jonathan and Blindscout.
Bitte Sehr

What about guns?

The same nightbane could, of course, shoot 4 pistols at a time, right? Would you handle that as a wild shot (-6) as shooting two pistols at a time would be handled or would you give an even worse modifier, -10 for example?

I've tried shooting two guns at once IRL. I have trained myself to shoot with my off-hand with nearly the same level of proficiency I have with my main hand. I found it extremely difficult to coordinate actually hit my target. The big issue that I found with two gun firing is that I could only focus on one sight picture at a time. I was much better off just shooting each pistol one at a time. Maybe if I had laser sights it would be easier. I'll see what I can do to try that out and let you know how it goes .

Unless they have, for some reason, the sharpshooting specialties from RIFTS, I would use the -6 for two guns at once and -10 for all four. Ballistic weapons are a completely different ballgame from melee weapons.

Hope this helps!

It does and dankeschön , Blindscout!!! I will boldly go as bolded above

[Hendrik]

Thank you, all and Shark Force. I did not think about the level 7 "paired weapons" ability from HtH Martial Arts.

Regarding the 4 arms use, this is how I think I will handle it:

"...
With WP Paired you can use two of the four arms paired. The other two arms are not covered by the WP-PW, but do not have to "sit around" . In addition to the WP-PW attack (cost 1 attack action), the 4-armed nightbane can elect to spend another attack action and attack once with the other arms, meaning 1 punch or 1 weapon attack. Alternatively, he can spend 2 additional attack actions (in addition to the WP PW attack cost of 1) and make a power punch with his non-paired second set of arms (again, 1 punch or 1 weapon blow).

At the GM's discretion, i.e. when circumstances allow, the 4-armed nightbane can learn WP PW for his second set of arms with a skill gained from a later level up. He will automatically gain the "paired weapons" ability in any case at level 7 (HtH Martial Arts, level 7 ability is "paired weapons"). The rationale behind this is that a nightbane can instinctively use his new set of arms, but the WP PW he learnt BEFORE his becoming does not cover 4 arm used. Paired Weapons is a specilized skill that requires training and coordination beyond a "simple" additional attack. In short, the nightbane needs some time with all his arms and train to learn to use them effectively not only as an additional attack but fully "paired". ..."

I think that should cover it nicely. It makes all arms useful. It is not too powerful. It raises the damage potential in a given round by quite a bit, but comes at a price - attack actions are spent, which is the standard Palladium system for doing something (more) in a round.

while the Rahu-man is a good example for this question...
The Jeridu (6 arms) is a better example their write up specifically mentions that they get WP paired as a Racial ability

Thanks, Damian. I think my above ruling would cover that. I think the Jeridu entry (which I had to time to look up, alas) suggests that you need to learn it. Incidentally, it would also suggest that a Rahu-Man who does not have paired weapons would only be able to use one weapon in combat unless he learns "paried weapons". Hmmm, I would allow him to strikes, one for each set of arms, for TWO ATTACK ACTIONS until he masters "paired weapon" combat.

[Warwolf]

Actually, Hendrik, somewhere in the books (Rifts Bionics Sourcebook? Conversion Book 1? Can't remember.) it states that W.P. Paired weapons will count for one additional set of arms. Beyond that, however, it doesn't affect it. Also note that the Paired Weapons ability under hand-to-hand skills is only for MELEE WEAPONS/ATTACKS and not ranged weapons. I actually wrote up a seperate skill called W.P. Paired Pistols which I included in the skills section of the NSG manuscript... you may or may not see that printed in a later sourcebook.

[Hendrik]

Thank you, Mark. I agree paired is not for ranged - although there was a lot of discussion and the rules not always clear on that - which is why I only thought about wild shots. I think shooting well with two pistols (or more maybe) at once, an interesting rules addition could be further use of the BtS Trickshot WP ... maybe just to offset the wild mali (-6 or whatever) without giving actual strike boni, like combat driving mayhap.

Regarding the bionics book or wherever ... do you have a reference, my friend? I will dig, too, of course, but that would help.

Kindest regards
Hendrik

[Shawn Merrow]

while the Rahu-man is a good example for this question...
The Jeridu (6 arms) is a better example their write up specifically mentions that they get WP paired as a Racial ability

Thanks, Damian. I think my above ruling would cover that. I think the Jeridu entry (which I had to time to look up, alas) suggests that you need to learn it. Incidentally, it would also suggest that a Rahu-Man who does not have paired weapons would only be able to use one weapon in combat unless he learns "paried weapons". Hmmm, I would allow him to strikes, one for each set of arms, for TWO ATTACK ACTIONS until he masters "paired weapon" combat.

The Jeridu entry (Land of the Damned One: page 70) says they automatically have the skill of Paired Weapons and can use it for all six of their arms. It allows them to control three sets of paired weapons.

[Shark_Force]

4 arms is still going to remain quite useful, even without getting to use paired weapons on all 4 at the same time.

you just have to consider uses. you can, for example, carry a gun in the spare hands. you could even reload it, potentially, while holding two melee weapons.

you can also use it (for example) to entangle a target while leaving your other hands free. entangle feels like an entirely underused ability to me, but it can really be a powerful ability to simply deny an opponent the ability to use all their limbs; a hunter, for example, is a lot less scary if it's big nasty two-handed weapon is entangled... while your hands are still perfectly free to grab it. likewise, you can entangle the wings so that it cannot fly away.

you can open doors and manipulate other objects while holding your weapons, including things like climbing ladders or ropes. just gotta think to use the extra arms. just because you can't use them for stabbing stuff more often doesn't mean they're useless.

[Hendrik]

The Jeridu entry (Land of the Damned One: page 70) says they automatically have the skill of Paired Weapons and can use it for all six of their arms. It allows them to control three sets of paired weapons.

That is quite horribly effective. Would that then not suggest that a Rahu-Man cannot use his arms with paired weapons unless he (at some point) takes WP PW or gets PW as a HtH ability?

4 arms is still going to remain quite useful, even without getting to use paired weapons on all 4 at the same time. you just have to consider uses. you can, for example, carry a gun in the spare hands. you could even reload it, potentially, while holding two melee weapons. you can also use it (for example) to entangle a target while leaving your other hands free. entangle feels like an entirely underused ability to me, but it can really be a powerful ability to simply deny an opponent the ability to use all their limbs; a hunter, for example, is a lot less scary if it's big nasty two-handed weapon is entangled... while your hands are still perfectly free to grab it. likewise, you can entangle the wings so that it cannot fly away. you can open doors and manipulate other objects while holding your weapons, including things like climbing ladders or ropes. just gotta think to use the extra arms. just because you can't use them for stabbing stuff more often doesn't mean they're useless.

I agree completely, 4 arms have many uses - in and out of combat. Just think of using tools for repair work etc. There is no doubt. My doubts and question pertain rather to how effective the four arms are, respectively how much and what training a 4 armed nightbane needs to use the arms paired in combat. And, what to pair.

Very best regards
Hendrik

[Warwolf]

Regarding the bionics book or wherever ... do you have a reference, my friend? I will dig, too, of course, but that would help.

Unfortunately, bud, I don't. And it's just as likely to be in one of the many Q&As throughout the books over the years. I honestly can't say. If I run across it in my research (I've been spending most of my time reading and writing Palladium material the past few days), I'll let you know though.

[Hendrik]

Thank you, Mark.

Now, go forth and write more good stuff!

O, and say, what did you think of my idea to handle the "paired shot" via a trickshot WP (no malus but no strike boni either)?

[Warwolf]

Thank you, Mark.

Now, go forth and write more good stuff!

O, and say, what did you think of my idea to handle the "paired shot" via a trickshot WP (no malus but no strike boni either)?

Oh, I have been (at least I think). Unfortunately it hasn't been on Dark Designs the past couple of weeks.

As far as how you want to handle paired firearms, I say if that's what seems fair to you and your group then DO IT! And have fun.