Invisibility granting immunity to lasers?

[flatline]

Does anyone play where invisibility grants immunity to lasers?

The logic is simple: invisibility makes the character perfectly transparent to light. Lasers are light. Therefore, lasers should pass harmlessly through the invisible character.

Of course, simple invisibility doesn't work against against all wavelengths, but invisibility superior does.

Forgive me if this topic has come up before, but I couldn't find it via google (my google-fu is often weak).

--flatline

[Dr. Doom III]

You know that never occured to me.

[flatline]

Does anyone play where invisibility grants immunity to lasers?

The logic is simple: invisibility makes the character perfectly transparent to light. Lasers are light. Therefore, lasers should pass harmlessly through the invisible character.

Of course, simple invisibility doesn't work against against all wavelengths, but invisibility superior does.

Forgive me if this topic has come up before, but I couldn't find it via google (my google-fu is often weak).

--flatline

I believe Invis. Superior just causes the light to bend around the character, not pass through or render them transparent. I've always played that it simply makes you invisible but if you're gonna get hit with something then you're SOL.

Okay, then by that logic, wouldn't invisibility superior bend the lasers around the character?

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't do that. Inadvisability makes it so you're not seen. It's a 'Super power'. Not an act of real world physics. It 'Just works" in the same way that Energy expulsion powers just produce what ever ____ is. It's not some sort of biochemical combination that lets you throw plasma. Your super power just lets you throw plasma. If you shoot an invisible person with a laser they scream and bleed.

Now, if the invisibility was granted in a technological way. I.E. part of a super invention or something. Eh... I could see your logic working. The "Wraps light around the person" thing. As it was achieved via 'technological' means, 'in game.'.

[flatline]

Why does the source of the effect matter?

--flatline

[Pepsi Jedi]

Because, one "Super powers" or "Innate ability" Doesn't work with "Physics" you're just... invisible.

The other "Technology that uses physics to wrap light around the object or target of the technology" Works different.

The first doesn't use the science of our universe to be. It simply is. So lasers wouldn't wrap around the person. It'd be just like the movies. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. The laser would slap into the invisible person same as if he were visible.

The second uses "In game physics and 'super science' to wrap light around the tech. In THAT instance your laser might wrap around too. (( though personally I'd say no. That the laser is so focused and concentrated to be weaponized that it burns through the effect faster than can be wrapped around.))

[ShadowLogan]

Does anyone play where invisibility grants immunity to lasers?

The logic is simple: invisibility makes the character perfectly transparent to light. Lasers are light. Therefore, lasers should pass harmlessly through the invisible character.

Of course, simple invisibility doesn't work against against all wavelengths, but invisibility superior does.

Forgive me if this topic has come up before, but I couldn't find it via google (my google-fu is often weak).

--flatline

Sounds like someone is applying Bend Light Minor Super Ability's #2 (essentially turns one invisible) and #3 (the bubble setup allows light to be refracted around the source) to the Spell Magic. The only issue I see is how the magic creates the invisibility. Is it some type of telepathic message that blanks the mind or is some type of field that refracts light around it. If it is refraction then the laser thing would work, but if it's some type of telepathic message it wouldn't. Now I looked at the spell descriptions for Simple and Superior and neither really give an indication on how they do it, so it is really the GM's call in how they see the Invisibility working.

[Dr. Doom III]

I can only see the source of the invisibility being an issue with psychic invisibility.
Making anyone who sees you think you're not there.
Otherwise how it does it doesn’t matter because it does the same thing.

[Galroth]

Does anyone play where invisibility grants immunity to lasers?

The logic is simple: invisibility makes the character perfectly transparent to light. Lasers are light. Therefore, lasers should pass harmlessly through the invisible character.

Of course, simple invisibility doesn't work against against all wavelengths, but invisibility superior does.

Forgive me if this topic has come up before, but I couldn't find it via google (my google-fu is often weak).

--flatline

Sounds like someone is applying Bend Light Minor Super Ability's #2 (essentially turns one invisible) and #3 (the bubble setup allows light to be refracted around the source) to the Spell Magic. The only issue I see is how the magic creates the invisibility. Is it some type of telepathic message that blanks the mind or is some type of field that refracts light around it. If it is refraction then the laser thing would work, but if it's some type of telepathic message it wouldn't. Now I looked at the spell descriptions for Simple and Superior and neither really give an indication on how they do it, so it is really the GM's call in how they see the Invisibility working.

I would say that spell Invisibility is not a mental effect because people viewing the invisible person do not get a save.

[Jedrious]

If you shoot an invisible person with a laser they scream and bleed.

Funny, I always immagined lasers having an instant cauterizing effect...

[Pepsi Jedi]

If you shoot an invisible person with a laser they scream and bleed.

Funny, I always immagined lasers having an instant cauterizing effect...

lol it's a hold over from "hol" Human Occupied landfill. There's a skill that's called "Use sharp things to cut people till they scream and bleed" (( Or something like that. lol))

[glitterboy2098]

If you shoot an invisible person with a laser they scream and bleed.

Funny, I always immagined lasers having an instant cauterizing effect...

nope;
according to Luke Campell, an engineer who's been studying lasers and wrote an informative manual on laser weapons for his own site and atomic rockets..

What would the Asteroid Pirate look like after they got hit?
The method of subsequent explosions on the back of an expanding cavity driving the cavity through the target will leave a wound much like that of a gunshot, except without fun stuff like the bullet fragmenting or breaking up. A variant where nearly parallel beams a few cm apart literally rip the tissue between them could leave a wound looking more like an ugly gash - add on a few more of these beams on the same plane and you could literally cut someone in half with one millisecond pulse, using only about as much energy as goes into accelerating the bullet of a modern day battle rifle. (ed note: in some SF novels by E.E."Doc" Smith and Robert Heinlein, this is referred to as setting your sidearm to "fan beam".)


Will there be a large splash of blood and gore on the wall behind the unlucky pirate?
Quite likely, Note that since you do not have the momentum associated with a projectile, it will be more spread out than you would get from a gunshot wound, and you would get blood and gore coming out the front, too.


I assume that since the beam is one millimeter in diameter but the hole in the pirate is four centimeters, little or no wound cauterization will occur.
Nope, the wound would be ragged and messy. It is created by mechanical, not thermal effects.

and in that interview he was talking about laser weapons with outputs in the 1-2 kilojoule per shot levels, or about the same energy involved as a pistol or rifle bullet. so SDC laser sidearms, basically.

you can imagine how much worse the effects would be at the multi-megajoule level of rifts MD laser weapons..

[Giant2005]

It is a magical effect that isn't effected by physics.
If it made you immune to light, then you would be blind every time you used the spell...

[Nightmask]

It is a magical effect that isn't effected by physics.
If it made you immune to light, then you would be blind every time you used the spell...

That's what resulted in the 'required secondary super-powers' trope, otherwise Invisible Woman wouldn't be able to see where she's going. The magical effect isn't any different than the super-power, it's shown to be based in physics rather than other means like clouding the minds of others so one should be immune to lasers (if someone could even figure out where you are to hit you in the first place).

[flatline]

It is a magical effect that isn't effected by physics.
If it made you immune to light, then you would be blind every time you used the spell...

Perhaps that's the real magic: the ability to "see" when you can no longer directly interact with light.

The spell description is hopelessly vague in this regard.

--flatline

[drewkitty ~..~]

Does anyone play where invisibility grants immunity to lasers?

The logic is simple: invisibility makes the character perfectly transparent to light. Lasers are light. Therefore, lasers should pass harmlessly through the invisible character.

Of course, simple invisibility doesn't work against against all wavelengths, but invisibility superior does.

Forgive me if this topic has come up before, but I couldn't find it via google (my google-fu is often weak).

--flatline

depends on how good you are at fast talking your GM.

[Balabanto]

It's magic. Magic "makes you invisible." It doesn't bend light like physics or a mirror, it just "makes you invisible."

In the immortal words of David Sleeze, punk magician!

It's an illusion! !@#!#! You! I'm fooling you! I'm fooling you and you don't like it!"

Magic=Physics defiance. So if you get hit by a laser, you still get hit by a laser.

[flatline]

It's magic. Magic "makes you invisible." It doesn't bend light like physics or a mirror, it just "makes you invisible."

Being invisible is the result. What is the effect or mechanism that creates that result?

In the immortal words of David Sleeze, punk magician!

It's an illusion! !@#!#! You! I'm fooling you! I'm fooling you and you don't like it!"

But in Palladium's megaverse, it's not an illusion. Magic is real.

Magic=Physics defiance.

No, in any reality where magic is real, magic is just another science. In fact, in any reality where magic is real, physics as we know it is simply a subset of the physics of that reality since the physics of that reality would have to include magic.

So if you get hit by a laser, you still get hit by a laser.

Whether or not it is possible to get hit by a laser depends on how the magical effect of invisibility works. If it works by clouding the minds of all who look at you, then you're right, the laser would hit and do damage normally. If it works by bending light around the subject then it is impossible for the laser to hit since it would bend around the subject. If it works by making the subject perfectly transparent to light, then the laser would "hit" but pass on through without transferring any of its energy to the subject.

I'm sure there are other ways invisibility could work. Those are just three examples.

--flatline

[Jedrious]

It's magic. Magic "makes you invisible." It doesn't bend light like physics or a mirror, it just "makes you invisible."

Being invisible is the result. What is the effect or mechanism that creates that result?

In the immortal words of David Sleeze, punk magician!

It's an illusion! !@#!#! You! I'm fooling you! I'm fooling you and you don't like it!"

But in Palladium's megaverse, it's not an illusion. Magic is real.

Magic=Physics defiance.

No, in any reality where magic is real, magic is just another science. In fact, in any reality where magic is real, physics as we know it is simply a subset of the physics of that reality since the physics of that reality would have to include magic.

So if you get hit by a laser, you still get hit by a laser.

Whether or not it is possible to get hit by a laser depends on how the magical effect of invisibility works. If it works by clouding the minds of all who look at you, then you're right, the laser would hit and do damage normally. If it works by bending light around the subject then it is impossible for the laser to hit since it would bend around the subject. If it works by making the subject perfectly transparent to light, then the laser would "hit" but pass on through without transferring any of its energy to the subject.

I'm sure there are other ways invisibility could work. Those are just three examples.

--flatline

I apply the anti-metagaming rule in this, if you try to argue it, then lasers do triple damage to invisible characters

[cornholioprime]

Does anyone play where invisibility grants immunity to lasers?

The logic is simple: invisibility makes the character perfectly transparent to light. Lasers are light. Therefore, lasers should pass harmlessly through the invisible character.

Of course, simple invisibility doesn't work against against all wavelengths, but invisibility superior does.

Forgive me if this topic has come up before, but I couldn't find it via google (my google-fu is often weak).

--flatline

Palladium Magical Invisibility only causes you to become unseen by means outside the realm of physics; there's no evidence or implication that it actually bends light.

Moreover, and perhaps more importantly, Laser 'Light' has the properties of a solid object (light can behave as either waves or particles, depending on the conditions).

Therefore:

1. The Laser will still hit the magically invisible, but tangible, target because the light that makes up the beam is not being bent around the object.

2. The Laser will still hit the magically invisible, but tangible, target because the light that makes up the beam is behaving as a 'tangible' particle in this instance, not as an 'intangible' wave.

EDIT: On a side note, there would probably be a 'ripple' or 'distortion' around an object -Predator-style -made invisible by physical means involving the bending of light, and I for one cannot envision how that limitation of physics-based invisibility could be overcome.

[Nightmask]

It's magic. Magic "makes you invisible." It doesn't bend light like physics or a mirror, it just "makes you invisible."

Being invisible is the result. What is the effect or mechanism that creates that result?

In the immortal words of David Sleeze, punk magician!

It's an illusion! !@#!#! You! I'm fooling you! I'm fooling you and you don't like it!"

But in Palladium's megaverse, it's not an illusion. Magic is real.

Magic=Physics defiance.

No, in any reality where magic is real, magic is just another science. In fact, in any reality where magic is real, physics as we know it is simply a subset of the physics of that reality since the physics of that reality would have to include magic.

So if you get hit by a laser, you still get hit by a laser.

Whether or not it is possible to get hit by a laser depends on how the magical effect of invisibility works. If it works by clouding the minds of all who look at you, then you're right, the laser would hit and do damage normally. If it works by bending light around the subject then it is impossible for the laser to hit since it would bend around the subject. If it works by making the subject perfectly transparent to light, then the laser would "hit" but pass on through without transferring any of its energy to the subject.

I'm sure there are other ways invisibility could work. Those are just three examples.

--flatline

I apply the anti-metagaming rule in this, if you try to argue it, then lasers do triple damage to invisible characters

That would be quite ridiculous, considering the player has every right to question how something works to know whether or not it will or won't protect them in a particular situation. 'Hey you aren't allowed to ask how invisibility works triple damage for you!' really isn't justified or fair.

The invisibility spells specifically refer to masking things like heat and even footprints, these are clearly physical effects so the spell is affecting light, heat, and even mass somehow to shield you from detection. Since they clearly aren't 'clouding men's minds' and work just as effectively against mechanical devices as living minds they must be masking or negating these physical effects. Whether the light is bent around you or just passes right through a laser should be going right through without inflicting harm in the invisible person.

[Jedrious]

It's magic. Magic "makes you invisible." It doesn't bend light like physics or a mirror, it just "makes you invisible."

Being invisible is the result. What is the effect or mechanism that creates that result?

In the immortal words of David Sleeze, punk magician!

It's an illusion! !@#!#! You! I'm fooling you! I'm fooling you and you don't like it!"

But in Palladium's megaverse, it's not an illusion. Magic is real.

Magic=Physics defiance.

No, in any reality where magic is real, magic is just another science. In fact, in any reality where magic is real, physics as we know it is simply a subset of the physics of that reality since the physics of that reality would have to include magic.

So if you get hit by a laser, you still get hit by a laser.

Whether or not it is possible to get hit by a laser depends on how the magical effect of invisibility works. If it works by clouding the minds of all who look at you, then you're right, the laser would hit and do damage normally. If it works by bending light around the subject then it is impossible for the laser to hit since it would bend around the subject. If it works by making the subject perfectly transparent to light, then the laser would "hit" but pass on through without transferring any of its energy to the subject.

I'm sure there are other ways invisibility could work. Those are just three examples.

--flatline

I apply the anti-metagaming rule in this, if you try to argue it, then lasers do triple damage to invisible characters

That would be quite ridiculous, considering the player has every right to question how something works to know whether or not it will or won't protect them in a particular situation. 'Hey you aren't allowed to ask how invisibility works triple damage for you!' really isn't justified or fair.

The invisibility spells specifically refer to masking things like heat and even footprints, these are clearly physical effects so the spell is affecting light, heat, and even mass somehow to shield you from detection. Since they clearly aren't 'clouding men's minds' and work just as effectively against mechanical devices as living minds they must be masking or negating these physical effects. Whether the light is bent around you or just passes right through a laser should be going right through without inflicting harm in the invisible person.

It's not that the player is questioning the physics, it's the player trying to get a significantly better than intended result, and munchkining like that is not tolerated

[flatline]

It's not that the player is questioning the physics, it's the player trying to get a significantly better than intended result, and munchkining like that is not tolerated

Or maybe I was posting in order to learn what others think about a particular idea and, perhaps, have an interesting discussion about it?

Do you really make a policy of penalizing players who look for clever applications of abilities?

--flatline

[Nightmask]

I apply the anti-metagaming rule in this, if you try to argue it, then lasers do triple damage to invisible characters

That would be quite ridiculous, considering the player has every right to question how something works to know whether or not it will or won't protect them in a particular situation. 'Hey you aren't allowed to ask how invisibility works triple damage for you!' really isn't justified or fair.

The invisibility spells specifically refer to masking things like heat and even footprints, these are clearly physical effects so the spell is affecting light, heat, and even mass somehow to shield you from detection. Since they clearly aren't 'clouding men's minds' and work just as effectively against mechanical devices as living minds they must be masking or negating these physical effects. Whether the light is bent around you or just passes right through a laser should be going right through without inflicting harm in the invisible person.

It's not that the player is questioning the physics, it's the player trying to get a significantly better than intended result, and munchkining like that is not tolerated

That's not being munchkin, that's getting the logical consequences of the spell based on its intended nature. You're also letting that attitude color your judgment as being unaffected by lasers while invisible isn't a 'significantly better than intended result'. Lasers are hardly the only weapon being used in Rifts Earth, if you just happened to be invisible odds are quite good that anyone shooting at you if they even managed to know you were around at all will be shooting with a lot more than laser weapons. It's certainly not giving anything close to a significant advantage over anyone as you just aren't going to find anyone who relies solely upon lasers for offense.

[Killer Cyborg]

It's magic. Magic "makes you invisible." It doesn't bend light like physics or a mirror, it just "makes you invisible."

Being invisible is the result. What is the effect or mechanism that creates that result?

Magic.

[Jedrious]

It's not that the player is questioning the physics, it's the player trying to get a significantly better than intended result, and munchkining like that is not tolerated

It never occurred to you that maybe I was posting in order to learn what others think about a particular idea and, perhaps, have an interesting discussion about it?

How uncharitable of you.

Do you really make a policy of penalizing players who look for clever applications of abilities?

--flatline

There is a huge difference between a clever application of an ability and trying to make yourself immune to all lasers by being invisible. Next thing you'll tell me is that a Vampire with Invisibility will walk around during the day and can attack at leisure.

[Nightmask]

It's magic. Magic "makes you invisible." It doesn't bend light like physics or a mirror, it just "makes you invisible."

Being invisible is the result. What is the effect or mechanism that creates that result?

Magic.

That's a completely useless response KC because Magic isn't a mechanism in the sense being asked, the question is how does the spell make it so people don't see the target because depending on how it does that there are different benefits and penalties.

[Nightmask]

It's not that the player is questioning the physics, it's the player trying to get a significantly better than intended result, and munchkining like that is not tolerated

It never occurred to you that maybe I was posting in order to learn what others think about a particular idea and, perhaps, have an interesting discussion about it?

How uncharitable of you.

Do you really make a policy of penalizing players who look for clever applications of abilities?

--flatline

There is a huge difference between a clever application of an ability and trying to make yourself immune to all lasers by being invisible. Next thing you'll tell me is that a Vampire with Invisibility will walk around during the day and can attack at leisure.

Sorry but there's no difference at all, having limited immunity to lasers while actively invisible is a valid definition of a clever application (if not an inherent feature, since no one's ever bothered using lasers on the Invisible Woman while she's invisible). That's also apples and oranges on the invisible vampires as natural sunlight harms them for other reasons due to their mystically vulnerable nature and they aren't going to get around that with invisibility (shrouding themselves in darkness though...).

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's magic. Magic "makes you invisible." It doesn't bend light like physics or a mirror, it just "makes you invisible."

Being invisible is the result. What is the effect or mechanism that creates that result?

Magic.

That's a completely useless response KC because Magic isn't a mechanism in the sense being asked, the question is how does the spell make it so people don't see the target because depending on how it does that there are different benefits and penalties.

But that's the thing. That IS the mechanism. And that is the boon and bummer of magic in itself. How's magic work? Magically. It's a circular definition that doesn't' work with science, but DOES work with magic, by the nature of Magic itself.

The spell does it "Through magic". Not through science. Trying to explain it with 'science' is prone to failure because it's not scientific principal at play (( Like bending light)) It's magical principal at play.

[Pepsi Jedi]

It's not that the player is questioning the physics, it's the player trying to get a significantly better than intended result, and munchkining like that is not tolerated

It never occurred to you that maybe I was posting in order to learn what others think about a particular idea and, perhaps, have an interesting discussion about it?

How uncharitable of you.

Do you really make a policy of penalizing players who look for clever applications of abilities?

--flatline

There is a huge difference between a clever application of an ability and trying to make yourself immune to all lasers by being invisible. Next thing you'll tell me is that a Vampire with Invisibility will walk around during the day and can attack at leisure.

Sorry but there's no difference at all, having limited immunity to lasers while actively invisible is a valid definition of a clever application (if not an inherent feature, since no one's ever bothered using lasers on the Invisible Woman while she's invisible). That's also apples and oranges on the invisible vampires as natural sunlight harms them for other reasons due to their mystically vulnerable nature and they aren't going to get around that with invisibility (shrouding themselves in darkness though...).

It's not though, if you rule that lasers bend around an invisable person, because the spell bends light around them, then yes it'd work for vampires too, as it's Sunlight that burns them, by the (false) logic, the spell would bend sunlight even easier than it'd bend laser light, wich is more narrowly focused and directed.

(( just for reference, I do not think either would work. I'm just pointing out that by the ruling of one, would allow for the other, if one were to rule that way.))

[flatline]

It's not that the player is questioning the physics, it's the player trying to get a significantly better than intended result, and munchkining like that is not tolerated

It never occurred to you that maybe I was posting in order to learn what others think about a particular idea and, perhaps, have an interesting discussion about it?

How uncharitable of you.

Do you really make a policy of penalizing players who look for clever applications of abilities?

--flatline

There is a huge difference between a clever application of an ability and trying to make yourself immune to all lasers by being invisible. Next thing you'll tell me is that a Vampire with Invisibility will walk around during the day and can attack at leisure.

That's an excellent example, although the books already weasel around it by saying that there's something "special" about sunlight beyond just the regular photons which is why artificial light won't work even if it has identical spectrum characteristics.

But I like the way you're thinking.

But these side-effects and unintended consequences are exactly the kinds of things that I've been trained to examine as an engineer so working this stuff out is part of the enjoyment I get out of the game.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

That's a completely useless response KC because Magic isn't a mechanism in the sense being asked, the question is how does the spell make it so people don't see the target because depending on how it does that there are different benefits and penalties.

But that's the thing. That IS the mechanism. And that is the boon and bummer of magic in itself. How's magic work? Magically. It's a circular definition that doesn't' work with science, but DOES work with magic, by the nature of Magic itself.

The spell does it "Through magic". Not through science. Trying to explain it with 'science' is prone to failure because it's not scientific principal at play (( Like bending light)) It's magical principal at play.

Again that response simply doesn't work, the spell has to be doing something from a physical standpoint to make someone invisible it can't just be 'well yeah they're invisible but no idea how'. Just as 'it's magic!' fails when you try and insist heat made by magic is somehow not really heat so it hurts someone not bothered by heat. 'It's invisible!' still requires the answer to the question 'how does it bring about this invisibility?'.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's a completely useless response KC because Magic isn't a mechanism in the sense being asked, the question is how does the spell make it so people don't see the target because depending on how it does that there are different benefits and penalties.

But that's the thing. That IS the mechanism. And that is the boon and bummer of magic in itself. How's magic work? Magically. It's a circular definition that doesn't' work with science, but DOES work with magic, by the nature of Magic itself.

The spell does it "Through magic". Not through science. Trying to explain it with 'science' is prone to failure because it's not scientific principal at play (( Like bending light)) It's magical principal at play.

Again that response simply doesn't work, the spell has to be doing something from a physical standpoint to make someone invisible it can't just be 'well yeah they're invisible but no idea how'. Just as 'it's magic!' fails when you try and insist heat made by magic is somehow not really heat so it hurts someone not bothered by heat. 'It's invisible!' still requires the answer to the question 'how does it bring about this invisibility?'.

That's the thing, That's exactly how magic works.

When a mage throws a fireball he's not taking combustible materials together, raising their temperature to the flash point, allowing the material to catch fire, stoking it till it's burning at a good rate then throwing the ball of burning material at someone.

They cast the spell and throw the magical fireball that's popped into existence, not though principals of science, but instead through the application of Magic.

[flatline]

That's a completely useless response KC because Magic isn't a mechanism in the sense being asked, the question is how does the spell make it so people don't see the target because depending on how it does that there are different benefits and penalties.

But that's the thing. That IS the mechanism. And that is the boon and bummer of magic in itself. How's magic work? Magically. It's a circular definition that doesn't' work with science, but DOES work with magic, by the nature of Magic itself.

The spell does it "Through magic". Not through science. Trying to explain it with 'science' is prone to failure because it's not scientific principal at play (( Like bending light)) It's magical principal at play.

Again that response simply doesn't work, the spell has to be doing something from a physical standpoint to make someone invisible it can't just be 'well yeah they're invisible but no idea how'. Just as 'it's magic!' fails when you try and insist heat made by magic is somehow not really heat so it hurts someone not bothered by heat. 'It's invisible!' still requires the answer to the question 'how does it bring about this invisibility?'.

That's the thing, That's exactly how magic works.

When a mage throws a fireball he's not taking combustible materials together, raising their temperature to the flash point, allowing the material to catch fire, stoking it till it's burning at a good rate then throwing the ball of burning material at someone.

They cast the spell and throw the magical fireball that's popped into existence, not though principals of science, but instead through the application of Magic.

But that's the thing: on Rifts Earth, magic is a science. How else to you explain the reproducible results?

--flatline

[Jedrious]

Both of you are the ones who go to a majic act and yell out the way you think he did it instead of enjoying the show, aren't you?

[Nightmask]

That's a completely useless response KC because Magic isn't a mechanism in the sense being asked, the question is how does the spell make it so people don't see the target because depending on how it does that there are different benefits and penalties.

But that's the thing. That IS the mechanism. And that is the boon and bummer of magic in itself. How's magic work? Magically. It's a circular definition that doesn't' work with science, but DOES work with magic, by the nature of Magic itself.

The spell does it "Through magic". Not through science. Trying to explain it with 'science' is prone to failure because it's not scientific principal at play (( Like bending light)) It's magical principal at play.

Again that response simply doesn't work, the spell has to be doing something from a physical standpoint to make someone invisible it can't just be 'well yeah they're invisible but no idea how'. Just as 'it's magic!' fails when you try and insist heat made by magic is somehow not really heat so it hurts someone not bothered by heat. 'It's invisible!' still requires the answer to the question 'how does it bring about this invisibility?'.

That's the thing, That's exactly how magic works.

When a mage throws a fireball he's not taking combustible materials together, raising their temperature to the flash point, allowing the material to catch fire, stoking it till it's burning at a good rate then throwing the ball of burning material at someone.

They cast the spell and throw the magical fireball that's popped into existence, not though principals of science, but instead through the application of Magic.

You really keep ignoring the point. Magic in the end is still a physical science and a way of interacting with existence and does something to adjust the physical world in some fashion when a spell is cast. No one questions the fireball because it's narrowly defined and easily understood that 'there's fire here now', but you can't go 'hey you're invisible!' without explaining HOW you're invisible. Since the spell affects objects like scanners then it must be affecting light somehow, and the GM has to know and explain to the players exactly what the spell is doing so they know what they can expect from it.

A magical fireball they know that 'well it's like exploding gasoline in the air making a fireball', it's simple and to the point, they don't know what Invisibility (either flavor) is doing and the GM has a responsibility to the players to make it clearly defined what the spell is doing to the physical world to make them invisible so they know what they can and can't get out if it. This is no different than the GM knowing and explaining just what a particular suit of custom power armor can do that they discovered.

[Nightmask]

Both of you are the ones who go to a majic act and yell out the way you think he did it instead of enjoying the show, aren't you?

This isn't a magic show and a GM has a responsibility to explain everything including how he thinks a spell works so the players know what they can and can't expect from it. 'It's magic! I don't have to explain anything' is not a valid answer.

[flatline]

Both of you are the ones who go to a majic act and yell out the way you think he did it instead of enjoying the show, aren't you?

Professional stage magicians are fascinating.

Even if I know how the trick is done, a good performer can still make it look like "magic".

However, this is not relevant to the subject of this thread.

--flatline

[Giant2005]

Both of you are the ones who go to a majic act and yell out the way you think he did it instead of enjoying the show, aren't you?

This isn't a magic show and a GM has a responsibility to explain everything including how he thinks a spell works so the players know what they can and can't expect from it. 'It's magic! I don't have to explain anything' is not a valid answer.

Actually it id a perfectly valid answer.
Magic isn't a science, it is a belief.
Those who do not believe in the magic can not use it.
Science goes from A to B with a lot of processes between those points to make it possible, magic simply goes from A to B without any processes.

If a player asked me about lasers, light and the process of invisibility, my solution would be to tell them they are no longer capable of using that spell because they no longer have the belief in the magic which is its only requirement.

[Nightmask]

Both of you are the ones who go to a majic act and yell out the way you think he did it instead of enjoying the show, aren't you?

Professional stage magicians are fascinating.

Even if I know how the trick is done, a good performer can still make it look like "magic".

However, this is not relevant to the subject of this thread.

--flatline

Plus the stage magician can tell you exactly how his tricks work and why, rather than 'well it's magic!'.

[Giant2005]

Both of you are the ones who go to a majic act and yell out the way you think he did it instead of enjoying the show, aren't you?

Professional stage magicians are fascinating.

Even if I know how the trick is done, a good performer can still make it look like "magic".

However, this is not relevant to the subject of this thread.

--flatline

I saw a stage Magician on a TV ad the other day, I am fairly convinced that "illusionist" was a fraud because they weren't illusions, it was actual magic .
he was waving a towel over people and making their outfits change instantly. It blew my mind.

[Pepsi Jedi]

That's a completely useless response KC because Magic isn't a mechanism in the sense being asked, the question is how does the spell make it so people don't see the target because depending on how it does that there are different benefits and penalties.

But that's the thing. That IS the mechanism. And that is the boon and bummer of magic in itself. How's magic work? Magically. It's a circular definition that doesn't' work with science, but DOES work with magic, by the nature of Magic itself.

The spell does it "Through magic". Not through science. Trying to explain it with 'science' is prone to failure because it's not scientific principal at play (( Like bending light)) It's magical principal at play.

Again that response simply doesn't work, the spell has to be doing something from a physical standpoint to make someone invisible it can't just be 'well yeah they're invisible but no idea how'. Just as 'it's magic!' fails when you try and insist heat made by magic is somehow not really heat so it hurts someone not bothered by heat. 'It's invisible!' still requires the answer to the question 'how does it bring about this invisibility?'.

That's the thing, That's exactly how magic works.

When a mage throws a fireball he's not taking combustible materials together, raising their temperature to the flash point, allowing the material to catch fire, stoking it till it's burning at a good rate then throwing the ball of burning material at someone.

They cast the spell and throw the magical fireball that's popped into existence, not though principals of science, but instead through the application of Magic.

You really keep ignoring the point. Magic in the end is still a physical science and a way of interacting with existence and does something to adjust the physical world in some fashion when a spell is cast. No one questions the fireball because it's narrowly defined and easily understood that 'there's fire here now', but you can't go 'hey you're invisible!' without explaining HOW you're invisible. Since the spell affects objects like scanners then it must be affecting light somehow, and the GM has to know and explain to the players exactly what the spell is doing so they know what they can expect from it.

A magical fireball they know that 'well it's like exploding gasoline in the air making a fireball', it's simple and to the point, they don't know what Invisibility (either flavor) is doing and the GM has a responsibility to the players to make it clearly defined what the spell is doing to the physical world to make them invisible so they know what they can and can't get out if it. This is no different than the GM knowing and explaining just what a particular suit of custom power armor can do that they discovered.

But you're wrong. It's NOT Exploding gasoline. It's 'just magic'. You can't explain a mage chucking an MDC fireball with 'science' because it's simply not. Spontaneous creation of an MDC fire from thin air is not covered in 'Science'.

Magical invisibility works, THROUGH magic. Not through science. Now, an invisibility field generated 100% through technology might be able to be explained (( though likely only through techno babble)).

The "How" does the magic invisibility works, is the exact same as the 'how' the magical fireball works. It works via magic. Can you or I explain it? Not the way you're thinking, as it's fictional.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Both of you are the ones who go to a majic act and yell out the way you think he did it instead of enjoying the show, aren't you?

Professional stage magicians are fascinating.

Even if I know how the trick is done, a good performer can still make it look like "magic".

However, this is not relevant to the subject of this thread.

--flatline

Plus the stage magician can tell you exactly how his tricks work and why, rather than 'well it's magic!'.

Yes, that's because it's "Not" magic, when you watch a stage magician IRL. IRL it's misdirection, illusion, angles, clever equipment, lies, ect.

In rifts. "Magic" is "real" in that "It's magic" is an explanation on how magic does it's stuff.

[Nightmask]

You really keep ignoring the point. Magic in the end is still a physical science and a way of interacting with existence and does something to adjust the physical world in some fashion when a spell is cast. No one questions the fireball because it's narrowly defined and easily understood that 'there's fire here now', but you can't go 'hey you're invisible!' without explaining HOW you're invisible. Since the spell affects objects like scanners then it must be affecting light somehow, and the GM has to know and explain to the players exactly what the spell is doing so they know what they can expect from it.

A magical fireball they know that 'well it's like exploding gasoline in the air making a fireball', it's simple and to the point, they don't know what Invisibility (either flavor) is doing and the GM has a responsibility to the players to make it clearly defined what the spell is doing to the physical world to make them invisible so they know what they can and can't get out if it. This is no different than the GM knowing and explaining just what a particular suit of custom power armor can do that they discovered.

But you're wrong. It's NOT Exploding gasoline. It's 'just magic'. You can't explain a mage chucking an MDC fireball with 'science' because it's simply not. Spontaneous creation of an MDC fire from thin air is not covered in 'Science'.

Magical invisibility works, THROUGH magic. Not through science. Now, an invisibility field generated 100% through technology might be able to be explained (( though likely only through techno babble)).

The "How" does the magic invisibility works, is the exact same as the 'how' the magical fireball works. It works via magic. Can you or I explain it? Not the way you're thinking, as it's fictional.

No, it's not. If you're unwilling to explain what the spell is doing to the environment to achieve its effects so the players know what the spell will and won't protect against and why it's protecting against those things that's your and your players' problems. 'It's works by magic' isn't a valid answer.

[Nightmask]

Both of you are the ones who go to a majic act and yell out the way you think he did it instead of enjoying the show, aren't you?

Professional stage magicians are fascinating.

Even if I know how the trick is done, a good performer can still make it look like "magic".

However, this is not relevant to the subject of this thread.

--flatline

Plus the stage magician can tell you exactly how his tricks work and why, rather than 'well it's magic!'.

Yes, that's because it's "Not" magic, when you watch a stage magician IRL. IRL it's misdirection, illusion, angles, clever equipment, lies, ect.

In rifts. "Magic" is "real" in that "It's magic" is an explanation on how magic does it's stuff.

As has already been pointed out 'it's magic' is NOT a valid explanation. Whether it magically bends the light around the subject, lets the light just pass through, or some other method the magic is still doing SOMETHING to the surroundings. You have to explain what the magic is doing to the physical environment to achieve its results, otherwise you haven't any right to say 'no it can't do that' because you don't even know what it's doing so how can you insist it can't do something if you insist that you have no idea what it's doing? You can't tell someone 'no it doesn't make you immune to lasers' when your answer isn't 'magic creates a hologram of empty space where you are' your answer is 'it's magic I don't know what it's doing'.

[cornholioprime]

No one questions the fireball because it's narrowly defined and easily understood that 'there's fire here now', but you can't go 'hey you're invisible!' without explaining HOW you're invisible. Since the spell affects objects like scanners then it must be affecting light somehow, and the GM has to know and explain to the players exactly what the spell is doing so they know what they can expect from it.

Sorry to reduce things to a simpler explanation than you want to see, but the answer 'Magic!" IS the way to explain how Magical Invisibility works. Even when magic interacts with the realm of physics, it is still following its own rules to create various manifestations on the physical plane, not the rules of physics.

A magical fireball they know that 'well it's like exploding gasoline in the air making a fireball', it's simple and to the point......

Sorry, but you're missing the point here.

First of all, there's nothing whatsoever in the spell description of "Fireball" to say exactly what the fireball is made of.....but.....even more importantly.......the spell is violating the Laws of Conservation of Matter and Energy in the first place just to bring into existence the 'fuel' for the Fireball to start with.

They don't know what Invisibility (either flavor) is doing and the GM has a responsibility to the players to make it clearly defined what the spell is doing to the physical world to make them invisible so they know what they can and can't get out if it. This is no different than the GM knowing and explaining just what a particular suit of custom power armor can do that they discovered.

The GM has no such responsibility; he'd be there all night explaining every single fictional spell effect, fictional super power, and fictional piece of technology he had the party come across whenever he was challenged on something.

Your players ALREADY suspend a certain level of disbelief just to sit down with you at a table, so I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that they can handle a little more without going into convulsions.
Including a little disclaimer before you even get the game started that says that effects in the game do no more or less to the character or his targets than what the what a plain language reading of the spell/psionic effect/super power/technology says it does.
If an Invisibility effect doesn't explicitly say that it makes the caster immune to lasers and other light-based attacks, then it simply doesn't, for both in- and out-of-game reasons.

As has already been pointed out 'it's magic' is NOT a valid explanation.

To say that something has been 'pointed out' implies that there is some sort of factual support to the argument being made; which is simply not the case here.



OFFICIALLY, and going by what we have in the books:

Since there's no scientific or even fictional, pseudo-scientific explanation given to us by the Author(s) behind how magically-based invisibility works........the OFFICIAL answer is, simply, that there isn't any physics-based means by which Invisibility spells work, only Magic, which doesn't follow physical laws in the palladium setting even though its effects often manifest on the physical plane.
Therefore, attempting to affix a physics-based explanation to the process is not only functionally useless but without official sanction -which is to say, a physics-based attempt to explain Magical Invisibility is nothing more than a House Rule.

[Jedrious]

You want a scientific explanation, you body and equipment absorb all spectrums of light and project identical particle waves of light in the proper vectors on the other side of you, however, the spell is unable to replicate high density light sich as energy weapons, resulting in viewers seeing the energy beams cease at your thresholds as you take damage.

[Nightmask]

You want a scientific explanation, you body and equipment absorb all spectrums of light and project identical particle waves of light in the proper vectors on the other side of you, however, the spell is unable to replicate high density light sich as energy weapons, resulting in viewers seeing the energy beams cease at your thresholds as you take damage.

That would make far more sense than 'It's Magic!', because you lose a lot of suspension of disbelief when 'Who cares it's magic!' pops up. Magic still has laws it follows (otherwise how could you teach it or learn it when it has no rules or anything for a mind to grasp?) and way too many people seem to want to treat magic as if it doesn't have any sense to it at all and no relation to physical reality in spite of how it still has rules and means of teaching how to use it.

[Nightmask]

No one questions the fireball because it's narrowly defined and easily understood that 'there's fire here now', but you can't go 'hey you're invisible!' without explaining HOW you're invisible. Since the spell affects objects like scanners then it must be affecting light somehow, and the GM has to know and explain to the players exactly what the spell is doing so they know what they can expect from it.

Sorry to reduce things to a simpler explanation than you want to see, but the answer 'Magic!" IS the way to explain how Magical Invisibility works. Even when magic interacts with the realm of physics, it is still following its own rules to create various manifestations on the physical plane, not the rules of physics.

No, it is NOT. You can't answer ANY of a player's questions regarding something when you yourself don't know what you're talking about. You can't provide any concrete answers to an issue such as this one because you keep tossing out 'Sorry guys I don't have a clue what it's doing'. You're the GM it's your job to have an actual answer.

A magical fireball they know that 'well it's like exploding gasoline in the air making a fireball', it's simple and to the point......

Sorry, but you're missing the point here.

First of all, there's nothing whatsoever in the spell description of "Fireball" to say exactly what the fireball is made of.....but.....even more importantly.......the spell is violating the Laws of Conservation of Matter and Energy in the first place just to bring into existence the 'fuel' for the Fireball to start with.

No actually it doesn't, you expend PPE to create the spell effect therefor you are expending energy in order to create that effect it is not making matter or energy come into being in violation of those laws it's converting the PPE energy into the desired result.

They don't know what Invisibility (either flavor) is doing and the GM has a responsibility to the players to make it clearly defined what the spell is doing to the physical world to make them invisible so they know what they can and can't get out if it. This is no different than the GM knowing and explaining just what a particular suit of custom power armor can do that they discovered.

The GM has no such responsibility; he'd be there all night explaining every single fictional spell effect, fictional super power, and fictional piece of technology he had the party come across whenever he was challenged on something.

Your players ALREADY suspend a certain level of disbelief just to sit down with you at a table, so I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that they can handle a little more without going into convulsions.
Including a little disclaimer before you even get the game started that says that effects in the game do no more or less to the character or his targets than what the what a plain language reading of the spell/psionic effect/super power/technology says it does.
If an Invisibility effect doesn't explicitly say that it makes the caster immune to lasers and other light-based attacks, then it simply doesn't, for both in- and out-of-game reasons.

The GM very much as the responsibility to know how his game works including everything within its boundaries and provide a player an explanation for why something does or doesn't work AND be able to answer questions as to whether or not something does something or it does not. A spell doesn't have to state every detail or logical consequence of its for it to exist. In this case you can't even say why the character is undetectable to visible light so you can't justify 'well then it doesn't make you safe from lasers' when you don't even know what's making them undetectable. It's impossible to say 'well no it doesn't work' when you don't even know how it works and rulings based on 'well I want to deny them this' are poor rulings.

As has already been pointed out 'it's magic' is NOT a valid explanation.

To say that something has been 'pointed out' implies that there is some sort of factual support to the argument being made; which is simply not the case here.

OFFICIALLY, and going by what we have in the books:

Since there's no scientific or even fictional, pseudo-scientific explanation given to us by the Author(s) behind how magically-based invisibility works........the OFFICIAL answer is, simply, that there isn't any physics-based means by which Invisibility spells work, only Magic, which doesn't follow physical laws in the palladium setting even though its effects often manifest on the physical plane.
Therefore, attempting to affix a physics-based explanation to the process is not only functionally useless but without official sanction -which is to say, a physics-based attempt to explain Magical Invisibility is nothing more than a House Rule.

That's just ridiculous. You're using the 'it's magic!' as a cop-out rather than define how the spell works and what it does and doesn't protect against based on how it renders one invisible. That route quickly leads to nonsensical rulings out of GM when they toss out contradictory rulings based on simply what they favor or don't favor instead of displaying any sort of consistency.

[Jedrious]

You want a scientific explanation, you body and equipment absorb all spectrums of light and project identical particle waves of light in the proper vectors on the other side of you, however, the spell is unable to replicate high density light sich as energy weapons, resulting in viewers seeing the energy beams cease at your thresholds as you take damage.

That would make far more sense than 'It's Magic!', because you lose a lot of suspension of disbelief when 'Who cares it's magic!' pops up. Magic still has laws it follows (otherwise how could you teach it or learn it when it has no rules or anything for a mind to grasp?) and way too many people seem to want to treat magic as if it doesn't have any sense to it at all and no relation to physical reality in spite of how it still has rules and means of teaching how to use it.

I however would never want to be at the same table as someone that required that amount of detail on a simple invisibility spell, I have to account for every minute detail as a computer programmer, the LAST thing I want to do in my free time is Object-Oriented Rules Lawyering...