Why is range so absurdly short in Rifts?

[Furoan]

Ok I know this is a bit weird but its bugged me for ages. Simply put...why are the ranges for everything so short? I know part of it is so we can have Star Wars or a number of other similar style close up battles/shoot ups, star fighter fights etc, or such but I remember once finding a 'sniper rilf'e that barely exeeded 1500 feet. Considering that the current world record for a sniping kill is 2.47 Kilometers I would kind of think that with the super tech of rifts and rail guns that we would get some longer range. Its really grating when I look at some of the Phase World Stuff and see attack spells that don't even reach five hundred meters away unless your like level 10-15 or so.

Are there decent long range spells/Weapons other than starship sized stuff?

[Kovoston]

I don't understand it either - When I do write ups for weapons (spells etc.) I try to make the range as realistic as possible....

[Giant2005]

Rifts is a medium that tries to combine everything in one setting: Magic, Technology, Aliens, Psionics - everything.
It tries to combine old school fighters like Samurai and Knights and melee combatants of all varieties with Gunslingers and Power Armor Pilots. Shorter ranges give the melee guys a chance and keep that aspect of Rifts relevant.

[keir451]

While Giant 2005 has a point that the short ranges were done for the effect of "game balance", I agree that the ranges should be realistic. A sniper rifle should have damage enough to be "one shot, one kill" weapon when it hits the right areas (head & heart) even with MDC armor and be adle to hit the target from long distance.

[Giant2005]

Also, keep in mind that the listed range of your weapon isn't the maximum range, it is the maximum effective range which is quite different. You can shoot beyond that range, just with penalties to your accuracy. Classes like the Gunmaster are so skilled that they can shoot beyond a weapon's effective range without penalty.
The weapon isn't what limits your range, it is your skill. Granted modern day snipers are seemingly far more skilled than their Rifts counterparts but playing characters with skills comparable to modern day snipers would be very dull. Either you kill with absolute ease, or you are killed with absolute ease.

[CyCo]

That was one of our house rules, inspired by another RPG. In short, the listed range is the maximum 'effective' range of the weapon. The firearm can fire past this range, becoming 'extreme' range. Firing at a target at this range has additional penalties to hit. I don't remember what they were, but I believe we extrapolated them from the Palladium rule set. Thus your sniper would have an extreme rage bracket from 1500' to 3000' feet. In general we applied this house rule to all 'missile weapons, even large vehicle mounted weapons, missiles, rockets, lasers, railguns, et al.

[keir451]

Also, keep in mind that the listed range of your weapon isn't the maximum range, it is the maximum effective range which is quite different. You can shoot beyond that range, just with penalties to your accuracy. Classes like the Gunmaster are so skilled that they can shoot beyond a weapon's effective range without penalty.
The weapon isn't what limits your range, it is your skill. Granted modern day snipers are seemingly far more skilled than their Rifts counterparts but playing characters with skills comparable to modern day snipers would be very dull. Either you kill with absolute ease, or you are killed with absolute ease.

Nonetheless, the entire point of a sniper rifle is to eliminate a target from extreme range, if a Rifts sniper rifle is only good at proverbial knife range then what's the point of it? Therefore (to me at least) a sniper rifle's effective range should be on the order of 1-2 miles and be able to kill an unarmored target with one shot, armored targets may require a different type of weapon but the weapon in question should have the same capability. Yes that may seem, to some, to make the game "less balanced/fair", but that falls under the individual GMs concept of game balance.

[Giant2005]

That was one of our house rules, inspired by another RPG. In short, the listed range is the maximum 'effective' range of the weapon. The firearm can fire past this range, becoming 'extreme' range. Firing at a target at this range has additional penalties to hit. I don't remember what they were, but I believe we extrapolated them from the Palladium rule set. Thus your sniper would have an extreme rage bracket from 1500' to 3000' feet. In general we applied this house rule to all 'missile weapons, even large vehicle mounted weapons, missiles, rockets, lasers, railguns, et al.

That doesn't actually sound like a house rule.
In Rifts you can fire the weapon 30% further than the listed range with a -5 penalty.
It is only a one time deal though, I'd house rule it that you can fire the weapon 30% further with a 5 point penalty, 60% further with a 10 point penalty, 90% further with a 15 point penalty and beyond. I'd keep it reasonable though - wouldn't want a player trying to shoot something 15 miles away and hoping for a natural 20...

[Armorlord]

Honestly, Rifts weapons are comparable to modern weapons in range, with the top end ranges of our better rifles exceeding the average Rifts weapon in the man-portable category, with a couple weapons that can match our sniper rifles. Which to put it in context means that, outside of wide open spaces and snipers, generally Rifts weaponry will have enough range in most encounters with the enemy. You aren't really able to engage in a real gunfight between two people at 9000 ft, you'd be lucky to spot each other. If you've got serious range on each other, then you break out the missiles, occasional artillery, and Boom Guns. Or speed in, since damn near any MDC vehicle on the market can go crashing through just about any terrain at high speed.

Generally these 'modern' ranges on 'futuristic' weapons is chalked up as the MD energy state dropping off beyond 30% past effective range, in theory an SD dealing railgun round or laser beam is still continuing off into the distance, while plasma and particle beam weapons dissipate outside of the high-energy state.

[keir451]

Honestly, Rifts weapons are comparable to modern weapons in range, with the top end ranges of our better rifles exceeding the average Rifts weapon in the man-portable category, with a couple weapons that can match our sniper rifles. Which to put it in context means that, outside of wide open spaces and snipers, generally Rifts weaponry will have enough range in most encounters with the enemy. You aren't really able to engage in a real gunfight between two people at 9000 ft, you'd be lucky to spot each other. If you've got serious range on each other, then you break out the missiles, occasional artillery, and Boom Guns. Or speed in, since damn near any MDC vehicle on the market can go crashing through just about any terrain at high speed.

Generally these 'modern' ranges on 'futuristic' weapons is chalked up as the MD energy state dropping off beyond 30% past effective range, in theory an SD dealing railgun round or laser beam is still continuing off into the distance, while plasma and particle beam weapons dissipate outside of the high-energy state.

Admittedly for your average infantry man/adventurer most of what you're going to be dealing with isn't beyond normal visual range (which varies from person to person) so the "effective ranges" are fine esp. when casting most spells. So you're more likely to be "in close" (either max weapon range or hand to hand) when dealing with the average Rifts threat, but nonetheless we DO see weapons that should have longer ranges/greater damage, yet are "under powered".

[Vrykolas2k]

While Giant 2005 has a point that the short ranges were done for the effect of "game balance", I agree that the ranges should be realistic. A sniper rifle should have damage enough to be "one shot, one kill" weapon when it hits the right areas (head & heart) even with MDC armor and be adle to hit the target from long distance.

Not sure I like the idea of a weapon that automatically bypasses your armour like that.
It also isn't entirely realistic.
For instance, my .338 Lapua isn't going through some types of modern armour unless I'm using a very specific round to do so.
This is, I think fairly well reflected by the game mechanics, as far as game mechanics go...

[keir451]

While Giant 2005 has a point that the short ranges were done for the effect of "game balance", I agree that the ranges should be realistic. A sniper rifle should have damage enough to be "one shot, one kill" weapon when it hits the right areas (head & heart) even with MDC armor and be adle to hit the target from long distance.

Not sure I like the idea of a weapon that automatically bypasses your armour like that.
It also isn't entirely realistic.
For instance, my .338 Lapua isn't going through some types of modern armour unless I'm using a very specific round to do so.
This is, I think fairly well reflected by the game mechanics, as far as game mechanics go...

Nonetheless those rounds DO exist and DO penetrate armor and DO have ranges greater than 1,500 ft (your .338 Lapua has a range of 1,750 meters/5,741 ft and CAN penetrate "better than average body armor" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Lapua_Magnum).
So (to me) it is not beyond imagining that there are weapons in Rifts that CAN ( and IMO should) penetrate Rifts body armor (most likely the helmet or eye piece/shield as they are less armored than the main body). But this (IMO) applies ONLY to sniper weapons, NOT your standard infantry weapons.

[Looonatic]

There also might be a little bit of physics involved here. Many of the 'sniper' rifles listed in Rifts are laser-based and lasers have unique challenges to overcome at distance. Lasers have to dwell on a relatively small spot on a target to transfer it's energy and do damage effectively. Getting a laser to dwell on a relatively small spot at long range is difficult for even the steadiest of hands. For comparison, take one of those cheap laser pointers you use to torment the cat, bring it outside on a dark night and try shining it on a stop sign about 400 yards away. Don't worry, you'll see if you're connecting due to the stop sign's reflectivity. But you'll notice how difficult it is to keep that laser on that two-foot wide stop sign. Now double that distance, and that's the 'maximum effective range' of the typical Rifts laser sniper rifle.

And now you know what I do when the power goes out.

[Dr. Doom III]

Game Balance I guess.
It's so easy to shoot someone especially with the dodge rules getting gutted that distance is the only defense anymore.

[keir451]

There also might be a little bit of physics involved here. Many of the 'sniper' rifles listed in Rifts are laser-based and lasers have unique challenges to overcome at distance. Lasers have to dwell on a relatively small spot on a target to transfer it's energy and do damage effectively. Getting a laser to dwell on a relatively small spot at long range is difficult for even the steadiest of hands. For comparison, take one of those cheap laser pointers you use to torment the cat, bring it outside on a dark night and try shining it on a stop sign about 400 yards away. Don't worry, you'll see if you're connecting due to the stop sign's reflectivity. But you'll notice how difficult it is to keep that laser on that two-foot wide stop sign. Now double that distance, and that's the 'maximum effective range' of the typical Rifts laser sniper rifle.

And now you know what I do when the power goes out.

I've heard of kids using those laser pointers on police choppers (back when I lived in the mountains of Colorado). It spooked the daylight out of the cops and they traced it back to the kid's house and scared the bejeesus out of him!
The one joy of energy weapons, you don't have to correct for windage!

[Vrykolas2k]

There also might be a little bit of physics involved here. Many of the 'sniper' rifles listed in Rifts are laser-based and lasers have unique challenges to overcome at distance. Lasers have to dwell on a relatively small spot on a target to transfer it's energy and do damage effectively. Getting a laser to dwell on a relatively small spot at long range is difficult for even the steadiest of hands. For comparison, take one of those cheap laser pointers you use to torment the cat, bring it outside on a dark night and try shining it on a stop sign about 400 yards away. Don't worry, you'll see if you're connecting due to the stop sign's reflectivity. But you'll notice how difficult it is to keep that laser on that two-foot wide stop sign. Now double that distance, and that's the 'maximum effective range' of the typical Rifts laser sniper rifle.

And now you know what I do when the power goes out.

I've heard of kids using those laser pointers on police choppers (back when I lived in the mountains of Colorado). It spooked the daylight out of the cops and they traced it back to the kid's house and scared the bejeesus out of him!
The one joy of energy weapons, you don't have to correct for windage!

Well, windage, elevation, and temperature...

[TechnoGothic]

Blood Loss (The Compendium of Contemporary Weapons or "tCoCW") pg.16.
Hit Location, Damage & Penalties (optional) "tCoCW" pg 16-19
*Dividing Up SDC/HP by Location for Humans, etc...
**24% Head, 50% Mainbody, 14% legs (7%each), 8% arms (4%each), 4% hands and feet (1% each)

Range is always the Approximate Effective Range.
The % beyond Max Effective Range changes from book to book, edition to edition. Generally +10% to +30% range.

Also consider, the Normal Penalities for Long Range beyond 200 ft.
I dont remember which book had these rules though. But it may have been like -1 to Hit per additional 100ft or so. Making Long Range attacks not as easy as many people like. Which is fine with me to be honest.

[taalismn]

Are there decent long range spells/Weapons other than starship sized stuff?

That's why it's so fun(and better) to take the actual listed ranges of real rifles and combine them with megadamage ammunition...sure, you can't resupply by charging your e-clip off a vehicular powerplant, but you're not forced to wait until your target's nearly on top of you to get in a good shot.

[Athos]

Also, keep in mind that the listed range of your weapon isn't the maximum range, it is the maximum effective range which is quite different. You can shoot beyond that range, just with penalties to your accuracy. Classes like the Gunmaster are so skilled that they can shoot beyond a weapon's effective range without penalty.
The weapon isn't what limits your range, it is your skill. Granted modern day snipers are seemingly far more skilled than their Rifts counterparts but playing characters with skills comparable to modern day snipers would be very dull. Either you kill with absolute ease, or you are killed with absolute ease.

Nonetheless, the entire point of a sniper rifle is to eliminate a target from extreme range, if a Rifts sniper rifle is only good at proverbial knife range then what's the point of it? Therefore (to me at least) a sniper rifle's effective range should be on the order of 1-2 miles and be able to kill an unarmored target with one shot, armored targets may require a different type of weapon but the weapon in question should have the same capability. Yes that may seem, to some, to make the game "less balanced/fair", but that falls under the individual GMs concept of game balance.

1 mile is realistic for a sniper rifle, 2 miles? That is getting silly... Can you really spot something 2 miles away without the scope so that you can scope in on it? How often would it come up that you are 1 or more miles away from your enemy, you see him, he doesn't see you, you get out your trusty sniper rifle and POW, you nail him? Once a year in game? Maybe twice? With heavy weapons, you can use the radar built into the robot or PA, so you spot your opponents, usually other big armored things easily. I doubt a GB can spot a lone individual and pick him off at 11000', that is as silly as the individual 11,000' away dodging. It makes sense to me to keep ranges short for simplicity's sake. Besides, after about 3x of you sniping off my NPCs, I would have one of their relatives hire a sniper and bang, you are dead, end of game, how fun was that?

[taalismn]

[ Besides, after about 3x of you sniping off my NPCs, I would have one of their relatives hire a sniper and bang, you are dead, end of game, how fun was that?

Or poison the guy's drink at a bar, or the chocolate mint and armed grenade under the pillow room service, if we're talking about killing 'em such that they can't see it coming...

[FreelancerMar]

Actually a Sniper Grade Scope with a proper sniper rifle + a properly trained sniper would be able to hit a target at 2+ miles. one of the reasons that many modern day snipers also have spotters with them to rattle off distance + windage, etcc to allow the sniper to adjust the scope accordingly on the spot. Im not saying it would be easy but it can be done. A round from a Real Life 30.06 Hunting rifle can travel up to 3 miles and can still kill someone from that range.

Take a scoped M82 Barret .50cal. I cannot remember the range on that thing but somtthing like that does have an effective 2+ mile kill range.

Bearing that in mind, I have no trouble at all believeing that a Gb's Boomgun can kill at 11,000ft. Remember that Almost if not all Robots and PA have computer assisted and enhanced rangefinding gunsight targeting systems. 1 mile = 5280ft.

Also a Range finding scope equiped rifle probably does not need a spoter to help the sniper out. One can probably assume that all Rifts era scope equiped rifles use range finding scopes.

[Furoan]

Also, keep in mind that the listed range of your weapon isn't the maximum range, it is the maximum effective range which is quite different. You can shoot beyond that range, just with penalties to your accuracy. Classes like the Gunmaster are so skilled that they can shoot beyond a weapon's effective range without penalty.
The weapon isn't what limits your range, it is your skill. Granted modern day snipers are seemingly far more skilled than their Rifts counterparts but playing characters with skills comparable to modern day snipers would be very dull. Either you kill with absolute ease, or you are killed with absolute ease.

Nonetheless, the entire point of a sniper rifle is to eliminate a target from extreme range, if a Rifts sniper rifle is only good at proverbial knife range then what's the point of it? Therefore (to me at least) a sniper rifle's effective range should be on the order of 1-2 miles and be able to kill an unarmored target with one shot, armored targets may require a different type of weapon but the weapon in question should have the same capability. Yes that may seem, to some, to make the game "less balanced/fair", but that falls under the individual GMs concept of game balance.

1 mile is realistic for a sniper rifle, 2 miles? That is getting silly... Can you really spot something 2 miles away without the scope so that you can scope in on it? How often would it come up that you are 1 or more miles away from your enemy, you see him, he doesn't see you, you get out your trusty sniper rifle and POW, you nail him? Once a year in game? Maybe twice? With heavy weapons, you can use the radar built into the robot or PA, so you spot your opponents, usually other big armored things easily. I doubt a GB can spot a lone individual and pick him off at 11000', that is as silly as the individual 11,000' away dodging. It makes sense to me to keep ranges short for simplicity's sake. Besides, after about 3x of you sniping off my NPCs, I would have one of their relatives hire a sniper and bang, you are dead, end of game, how fun was that?

You do realize that what you do is you go for a low magnification and search through the scope before 'zooming in' to get a proper kill. Considering that the world record TODAY for a sniping kill is 2.47 kilometers, which is 1.53478684 miles. That's today. Considering the kinds of ammunition, firearms, and well advances in optics in Rifts i would expect a sniper Rifle to be able to break 2 miles (though if it did I would probably limit it to a extremely skilled gunman character.)

I do understand your thought on 'the enemies hire snipers and your dead' but that's unarmored targets. All you need to to make sure your PC's know that there is a sniper around, or that there eists the possibility of one. Deliberately flub the 'first shot'. PC is sitting down for lunch when a shot goes right through her sandwhich or something. Have your scholar or scientist or man at arms do a roll to see if they can guess where it came from and notice that say its a sniping round. suddenly PC's get a lot more paranoid about wearing their armor (which does protect by head remember), or keeping magical spells up. Use it sparingly but you can do it without deliberately ruining stuff.

Also remember, WHERE IS YOUR SNIPER? If your PC's are in the middle of the woods its going to be easy to hide him, but if they are on the raod in the middle of relatively open ground, suddenly the PC's are going to be able to move towards him very quickly.

[Giant2005]

Considering the fact that it is reasonably safe to assume that the current record is held by the best sniper with the best equipment, the only fair comparison is the best Rifts Sniper with the best Rifts equipment.

A level 15 Gunmaster, with a NE-75H rifle would have an accurate range of 15,000'.
Using the +30% range, -5 to strike rule, they could fire 16,800'.
If their double range ability stacks with their innate range increase, they could fire 22,800'
That last number is 6.94944 km and almost three times the current world record.
Sounds fair to me.

[llywelyn]

Considering the fact that it is reasonably safe to assume that the current record is held by the best sniper with the best equipment, the only fair comparison is the best Rifts Sniper with the best Rifts equipment.

A level 15 Gunmaster, with a NE-75H rifle would have an accurate range of 15,000'.
Using the +30% range, -5 to strike rule, they could fire 16,800'.
If their double range ability stacks with their innate range increase, they could fire 22,800'
That last number is 6.94944 km and almost three times the current world record.
Sounds fair to me.

I'd just call that last bit an even 7 klicks, but excellent reasoning.

[SpiritInterface]

One of the main reasons is that there would be three sets of combat ranges.

1) Infantry / Adventures ranges; 0 - 500 feet.
2) Vehicle / Power Armor / Robot / Air to Air ranges; 0 - 26,000 feet (5 miles).
3) Space Combat ranges; 0 feet - 100+ miles.

[ShadowLogan]

Ok I know this is a bit weird but its bugged me for ages. Simply put...why are the ranges for everything so short? I know part of it is so we can have Star Wars or a number of other similar style close up battles/shoot ups, star fighter fights etc, or such but I remember once finding a 'sniper rilf'e that barely exeeded 1500 feet. Considering that the current world record for a sniping kill is 2.47 Kilometers I would kind of think that with the super tech of rifts and rail guns that we would get some longer range. Its really grating when I look at some of the Phase World Stuff and see attack spells that don't even reach five hundred meters away unless your like level 10-15 or so.

Are there decent long range spells/Weapons other than starship sized stuff?

Magic access to a LeyLine or Nexus for extended range (RMB), which may not be enough.

For Tech I think it is a mix of several factors:
Game balance. Already mentioned.

Effective Range vs actual range. Already mentioned.

Balance between Range, Damage, and available energy. Do you want a situation like the ATL-7 (SA#2) w/extended range (for manportable) coupled with a heavy hitter (better than a boomgun) at the cost of an entire Eclip? When you can use something with less range and power, but greater endurance?

[Killer Cyborg]

So (to me) it is not beyond imagining that there are weapons in Rifts that CAN ( and IMO should) penetrate Rifts body armor (most likely the helmet or eye piece/shield as they are less armored than the main body). But this (IMO) applies ONLY to sniper weapons, NOT your standard infantry weapons.

That's the thing- if it can apply to snipering weapons, it can apply to infantry weapons.
If there's a round powerful enough to penetrate MDC body armor in a single shot, there's no reason why this round couldn't be fired in bursts.

The thing is, you're looking at it wrong.
A standard soldier in Rifts is the equivalent of a 20th century tank, and you don't send in a sniper to take out a modern tank.
Not as a first choice, anyway.
And if you DO, you don't assume that the sniper is going to be able to shoot through the tank in a single shot.
In virtually every case, he's going to have to wait until somebody gets outside of the tank before he can make his kill.

Rifts is a setting where armor technology is more powerful than weapons technology as a general rule.
It's a feature, not a bug.
It's meant to be this way.
Trying to bypass this in order to have a cool sniper with one-shot kills screws over the majority of the setting in favor of one cool character and effect, and it's not even something that's intrinsic to the character.
Being a sniper isn't actually about one-shotting the enemy, although that's always a good goal to have: it's about accurately shooting the enemy from concealment.
Snipers don't need powerful weapons, only stealth and accuracy.

[Killer Cyborg]

That was one of our house rules, inspired by another RPG. In short, the listed range is the maximum 'effective' range of the weapon. The firearm can fire past this range, becoming 'extreme' range. Firing at a target at this range has additional penalties to hit. I don't remember what they were, but I believe we extrapolated them from the Palladium rule set. Thus your sniper would have an extreme rage bracket from 1500' to 3000' feet. In general we applied this house rule to all 'missile weapons, even large vehicle mounted weapons, missiles, rockets, lasers, railguns, et al.

That doesn't actually sound like a house rule.
In Rifts you can fire the weapon 30% further than the listed range with a -5 penalty.
It is only a one time deal though, I'd house rule it that you can fire the weapon 30% further with a 5 point penalty, 60% further with a 10 point penalty, 90% further with a 15 point penalty and beyond. I'd keep it reasonable though - wouldn't want a player trying to shoot something 15 miles away and hoping for a natural 20...

One possible reason why Palladium avoided extending it further is the "natural 20 always hits" rule.

[Akashic Soldier]

My little brother and I are currently building a reusable battle table with each square equaling a yard. Needless to say... the fact that Rifts range is SO large that at the BIGGEST we can make it and still fit it into the room to be useable we can get just short of 2000 squares. And that is right to the edge of the table we're building. Its nuts.

[Killer Cyborg]

My little brother and I are currently building a reusable battle table with each square equaling a yard. Needless to say... the fact that Rifts range is SO large that at the BIGGEST we can make it and still fit it into the room to be useable we can get just short of 2000 squares. And that is right to the edge of the table we're building. Its nuts.

Impressive!

[Akashic Soldier]

My little brother and I are currently building a reusable battle table with each square equaling a yard. Needless to say... the fact that Rifts range is SO large that at the BIGGEST we can make it and still fit it into the room to be useable we can get just short of 2000 squares. And that is right to the edge of the table we're building. Its nuts.

Impressive!

I wanted to do it so that combat could be more strategic. I have thin wood cut at various sizes to be trees, rocks, buildings and vehicles and robots. You get the idea.

Since I am running everything so strictly from the R:GMG and I am running a rather "If you **** up you die to a hail of plasma" style game cover and how you approach or flee your enemies is important enough to warrant something like this.

[flatline]

My little brother and I are currently building a reusable battle table with each square equaling a yard. Needless to say... the fact that Rifts range is SO large that at the BIGGEST we can make it and still fit it into the room to be useable we can get just short of 2000 squares. And that is right to the edge of the table we're building. Its nuts.

Impressive!

I wanted to do it so that combat could be more strategic. I have thin wood cut at various sizes to be trees, rocks, buildings and vehicles and robots. You get the idea.

Since I am running everything so strictly from the R:GMG and I am running a rather "If you **** up you die to a hail of plasma" style game cover and how you approach or flee your enemies is important enough to warrant something like this.

Sounds cool! But unless you Australians use the words differently than us Americans, you should have used the word "tactical" instead of "strategic". Tactics are the decisions made on the battlefield, strategy is usually at a much higher level of abstraction. To be fair, however, knowing where to draw the line between the two seems to be a bit of an art form.

--flatline

[Misfit KotLD]

So, if rifle ranges are too short, am I allowed to complain pistol ranges are vastly overstated?

[TechnoGothic]

Get that Gun Master in a Glitterboy ASAP !!
11,000 ft x2 = 22,000 ft = Plus +30% = 29,200 ft Range !! maybe even 30,400 ft if you x2 the +30% also...

[azazel1024]

But, but, but I can hit the broadside of a barn at 2,000ft with a pistol!

So long as it is a really big barn and I can snap off 3 or 4 shots and someone can spot the fall of the round.

Yes ranges are kind of short. A couple of things to keep in mind, unaided over iron sights, even with zero deflection, zero drop weapons like lasers, you are probably going to have a hard time hitting a man sized target at anything over about 2,000ft without a scope. Not impossible, but it is going to start getting really, really hard. Get out to about 4,000ft and it pretty much is impossible unless you are just dead lucky and have really sharp vision to even see the person.

Now with a scope, it becomes infinitely easier with the above. However, something to keep in mind against really fast targets at long range, say 10 miles and something moving at Mach 3...you ARE going to have to lead your target, even with a laser. At that distance and against targets moving that fast, the target would move 60cm in the time it took the laser beam to arrive. Not that critical if you are center of massing a big target...but if you had a really small target, like a super fast suit of power armor, 60cm isn't all that tiny a distance, especially if you are going for an aimed shot at something.

A little more realistically though, in an atmosphere, even with a super powerful laser, atmospheric conditions can mess up a laser through a lot of different ways. Passing through pockets of differing air density will cause the beam to refract a certain amount...like inconsequential at the ranges you'd be discussing, but it will happen. More importantly is beam diffusion and absorbtion. The more powerful the laser, the worse this is going to be. Get to a certain power level and the atmosphere is going to do a pretty good job of absorbing a portion of the beam energy. So lasers ARE going to have a certain maximum range in Rifts, especially ones as powerful as megadamage lasers before their beam energy and beam diffusion are going to mess things up enough to make the hit not cause much damage.

Frankly though ranges are piddly. I'd give pretty much any lase rifle a minimum of 3,000ft range without a scope and 8,000ft with a basic scope. Beyond that you need specialized stablization and imaging/optics to be able to see, stablize the weapon and hit something beyond those ranges.

[Rockwolf66]

But, but, but I can hit the broadside of a barn at 2,000ft with a pistol!

So long as it is a really big barn and I can snap off 3 or 4 shots and someone can spot the fall of the round.

Yes ranges are kind of short. A couple of things to keep in mind, unaided over iron sights, even with zero deflection, zero drop weapons like lasers, you are probably going to have a hard time hitting a man sized target at anything over about 2,000ft without a scope. Not impossible, but it is going to start getting really, really hard. Get out to about 4,000ft and it pretty much is impossible unless you are just dead lucky and have really sharp vision to even see the person.

Well I can say that with iron sights a modern revolver is suprisingly accurate at 300 yards.

The Video

With simething like a laser weapon a 3,000 foot shot would actually be pretty easy with a properly braced handgun. Sort of like shooting a Glock 20 or a FN FiveseveN handgun at 100 yards at a GI Joe 12 inch tall action figure.

[SpiritInterface]

The group I game with has a battle board that is 60" x 70" and we use 1 square = 5 feet. We play with 25mm figures. We adjust the scale as the scenario calls for.

[Akashic Soldier]

The group I game with has a battle board that is 60" x 70" and we use 1 square = 5 feet. We play with 25mm figures. We adjust the scale as the scenario calls for.

Id do that but the problem comes down to AoE.

[PhellaOne]

There also might be a little bit of physics involved here. Many of the 'sniper' rifles listed in Rifts are laser-based and lasers have unique challenges to overcome at distance. Lasers have to dwell on a relatively small spot on a target to transfer it's energy and do damage effectively. Getting a laser to dwell on a relatively small spot at long range is difficult for even the steadiest of hands. For comparison, take one of those cheap laser pointers you use to torment the cat, bring it outside on a dark night and try shining it on a stop sign about 400 yards away. Don't worry, you'll see if you're connecting due to the stop sign's reflectivity. But you'll notice how difficult it is to keep that laser on that two-foot wide stop sign. Now double that distance, and that's the 'maximum effective range' of the typical Rifts laser sniper rifle.

And now you know what I do when the power goes out.

I've heard of kids using those laser pointers on police choppers (back when I lived in the mountains of Colorado). It spooked the daylight out of the cops and they traced it back to the kid's house and scared the bejeesus out of him!
The one joy of energy weapons, you don't have to correct for windage!

Well, windage, elevation, and temperature...

And at EXTREME ranges, you actually have to account for the rotation of the earth itself. Sounds crazy, but it's true.

[Balabanto]

Considering the fact that it is reasonably safe to assume that the current record is held by the best sniper with the best equipment, the only fair comparison is the best Rifts Sniper with the best Rifts equipment.

A level 15 Gunmaster, with a NE-75H rifle would have an accurate range of 15,000'.
Using the +30% range, -5 to strike rule, they could fire 16,800'.
If their double range ability stacks with their innate range increase, they could fire 22,800'
That last number is 6.94944 km and almost three times the current world record.
Sounds fair to me.

I'd just call that last bit an even 7 klicks, but excellent reasoning.

An NE 75 H is a heavy weapon, not a rifle.

Let's now consider the geography of Rifts earth. Oversized trees, difficult terrain, gates to other dimensions, and monsters everywhere lurking behind corners. The average engagement distance hasn't changed, it's about 300 feet.

Now let's consider how designers actually make weapons. The sniper only needs to find concealment out to distance X. Therefore, they build weapons that shoot only out to distance X, and focus on other aspects to make the weapons affordable to produce and distribute. If you know your average engagement distance is 0-300 feet, then you don't build a weapon with 3 miles of range because it's utility is limited.

[kaid]

With all the MDC armor I always took the short ranges as being the range at which you can inflict normal damage on MDC armor. Man portable armor has much more parity with the available weapons in rifts earth than we currently have.

Shooting at very extreme ranges would become ineffective you are unlikely to land a one shot kill and if you don't your target now knows you are there and can maneuver to engage you.

The super short ranges in space bother me a lot more than the ground based weapons honestly but I think thats mainly to encourage starwars like dog fighting everything really up close and personal type scenes.

[azazel1024]

+1

The land/atmosphere side ranges don't bother me a whole lot, it is the space ranges (and speeds) that drive me up a wall.

Even if you use them as written, at some of the fastest ships' top speeds of around Mach 20 it would take 2 melee rounds to cross from extreme energy weapons range to knife fighting range (longest range energy weapons are about 120 miles in space).

That and the fact that with the last couple of books, there are plenty of capitol ships that can move significantly faster than most space fighters. I get that in some ways that might realistically be the case...but there is no real acceleration or manuevering mechanic in the game, so no way to express the fact that even though your broadsword space fighter tops out at Mach 9, it only takes a melee round to get to that speed and can turn in a radius of only a mile or two...where as that Naruni cruiser tops out at Mach 12...but it takes 4 minutes to get to that speed and its turn radius is 50 miles.

I personally like to multiple ranges by 10x, starfighter speeds by 10x and all other space ship speeds by x5. Also that it takes 2 melees to hit max speed for a space fighter and 2 minutes for larger ships. Well, slower than light speeds are increased, I leave FTL alone. At least then you get reasonable travel times. Something a little short of 2 hours to get to the moon from Earth for a fast spacefighter. Maybe only 3 hours for some of the fastest big ships and roughly 5-7hrs for most big ships. About a month for a fast space fighter to get to Mars from Earth at top speed, but then again for distances that big, a short FTL jump is likely...or if you are moving cargo on the cheap you'll just deal with the month or three of travel times for intrasystem space freighters.

I consider jumps of cislunar range or less impossible for FTL drives. Realtively pinpoint travel is possible, but not over short distances because of the amount of time it takes to spool up and then spool down the FTL drives...even only engaging them at "slow" speeds.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[flatline]

The notion of a "top speed" in space is nonsense until you start to reach relativistic speeds. Fortunately, space combat has never come up in any of my campaigns, so it's never been an issue. If it ever does come up, I guess we'll have to assign acceleration values to all the ships and keep calculators handy.

I wonder if there's software out there to help model space combat. It's the kind of problem that a computer would be very good at and the human brain is not.

--flatline

[azazel1024]

I don't think there is, but it would be kind of cool.

I figure the CG drives of the 3 galaxies are effectively inertialess drives that work more on the principal of compressing/distorting space time to move the ship around instead of actually physically moving the thing. The effect is the same, except that if you turn the drive off you instantly stop. I just take it to be that it takes awhile for the drive to get up to "full power" so there is still some acceleration, even if very short period of time. Same with some actual turning radius. Same goes with stopping, you can't simply "kil the drive" as the space distortion field takes a little while to die away as well.

Contragravity I figure doesn't just mean eliminating gravity or anti-gravity, but it is using local gravity manipulation to distort space.

That way I still get my dog fighting space fighters.

[flatline]

I don't think there is, but it would be kind of cool.

I figure the CG drives of the 3 galaxies are effectively inertialess drives that work more on the principal of compressing/distorting space time to move the ship around instead of actually physically moving the thing. The effect is the same, except that if you turn the drive off you instantly stop. I just take it to be that it takes awhile for the drive to get up to "full power" so there is still some acceleration, even if very short period of time. Same with some actual turning radius. Same goes with stopping, you can't simply "kil the drive" as the space distortion field takes a little while to die away as well.

Contragravity I figure doesn't just mean eliminating gravity or anti-gravity, but it is using local gravity manipulation to distort space.

That way I still get my dog fighting space fighters.

Hmm...if you're assuming inertialess drives, then maybe a top speed is relevant. I was assuming a more traditional use of thrust to accelerate/decelerate. Personally, I would assume that contragavity traction can still be treated as a thrust mechanism with all the inertial consequences (what does it mean to "instantly stop" in space? What are you stopped relative to?).

Edit: If CG was inertialess, then CG projectile weapons wouldn't work since once the projectile leaves the weapon, it would have no reason to continue on its trajectory. Please let me know if I've misunderstood what you were saying.

--flatline

[azazel1024]

The CG guns, if I remember correctly, mention that they are surrounded in a CG field, not simply some kind of railgun using CG instead of magnetic force. I could be wrong. I might be mixing up the I-beam guns of the Arkhons.

[Zer0 Kay]

My little brother and I are currently building a reusable battle table with each square equaling a yard. Needless to say... the fact that Rifts range is SO large that at the BIGGEST we can make it and still fit it into the room to be useable we can get just short of 2000 squares. And that is right to the edge of the table we're building. Its nuts.

Impressive!

I wanted to do it so that combat could be more strategic. I have thin wood cut at various sizes to be trees, rocks, buildings and vehicles and robots. You get the idea.

Since I am running everything so strictly from the R:GMG and I am running a rather "If you **** up you die to a hail of plasma" style game cover and how you approach or flee your enemies is important enough to warrant something like this.

Sounds cool! But unless you Australians use the words differently than us Americans, you should have used the word "tactical" instead of "strategic". Tactics are the decisions made on the battlefield, strategy is usually at a much higher level of abstraction. To be fair, however, knowing where to draw the line between the two seems to be a bit of an art form.

--flatline

I wouldn't say artform so much as civilians have blurred the line. It is quite clear. If one thinks of it is a project managment mindset.
Strategy is the goal "We're going to build a house made of steel and cement and...
Tactics are the milestones and the methods used to get there "On Thor's Day we'll bring in the heavy equipment and prep the area for the foundation"
"On Fraya's Day we'll poor the foundation"

Both can change as plans, especially those for battle, frequently do. But tactics are normally far looser changing at a moments notice based on what the situation at hand needs, while a strategic plan normally takes longer due to less situational awareness and bureaucracy. The smaller the mission/goal the more closely the strategic plan is to the tactical, in details and flexibility.

[glitterboy2098]

Game Balance I guess.
It's so easy to shoot someone especially with the dodge rules getting gutted that distance is the only defense anymore.

i wouldn't claim game balance, so much as 'game design'.

most infantry weapons in rifts are 2x to 3x longer ranged then their modern equivilents. it's the bigger stuff, the tank guns and such, that tend to have ranges 2x to 4x shorter than their modern equivilents.
this tendancy started in the old RMB, alongside the "few weapons do more than 3D6x10 MD, even the big ass cannons" trend.

it continued through the first dozen or so books, and by the time freelancers started writing most of the books, it became an unwritten rule. i do think kevin S. sticks to it nowadays through some inclination towards 'game balance', using his role as editor to make books conform to it despite efforts by freelancers to bring a bit more range and damage to weapons that should have it.

[TechnoGothic]

The notion of a "top speed" in space is nonsense until you start to reach relativistic speeds. Fortunately, space combat has never come up in any of my campaigns, so it's never been an issue. If it ever does come up, I guess we'll have to assign acceleration values to all the ships and keep calculators handy.

I wonder if there's software out there to help model space combat. It's the kind of problem that a computer would be very good at and the human brain is not.

--flatline

Astrodriod anyone

The CG guns, if I remember correctly, mention that they are surrounded in a CG field, not simply some kind of railgun using CG instead of magnetic force. I could be wrong. I might be mixing up the I-beam guns of the Arkhons.

I-Beam are used by the MEGAVERSAL LEGION
TRI-Beams are used by the ARKHONS.

[glitterboy2098]

The notion of a "top speed" in space is nonsense until you start to reach relativistic speeds. Fortunately, space combat has never come up in any of my campaigns, so it's never been an issue. If it ever does come up, I guess we'll have to assign acceleration values to all the ships and keep calculators handy.

I wonder if there's software out there to help model space combat. It's the kind of problem that a computer would be very good at and the human brain is not.

--flatline

or you could just adopt my rules... fairly simple add/subtract record keeping for ship velocities, easy to use accelleration model, and even range issues addressed simply... i've also added some special rules for things like ramming and such which currently aren't covered.