My solutuion to the Cyborg vs. Phase Beamers

[Scorpion Leader]

Everyone in a different post has over complicated this matter concerning Cyborbs vs. Phase Beamers. The Solution is really simple treat combat and damage as per normal. Why?? Simple: RU p. 47 says Cyborgs are impervious to weapons that do damage direct to hit points (is consider a mega damage being now). Dimention Book 2: Phase World Clearly States however on p. 122 that Phase Beamers quote:"note that living ceatures no matter what they are made of, still take damage." So seeing that Cyborgs are living Beings/Creatures, they take Damage from Phase Beamers like any other Mega Damage Living Creature does (think even the Machine People here) or how else could the Cyborgs of the Centeral Alliance so long. -Nuff said.

P.S. I hope to see more on the Central Alliance in a future sourcebook someday.

[Chronicle]

I have to agree, otherwise, whats to stop someone from gathering an army and stomping the central alliance.

[Nightmask]

Everyone in a different post has over complicated this matter concerning Cyborbs vs. Phase Beamers. The Solution is really simple treat combat and damage as per normal. Why?? Simple: RU p. 47 says Cyborgs are impervious to weapons that do damage direct to hit points (is consider a mega damage being now). Dimention Book 2: Phase World Clearly States however on p. 122 that Phase Beamers quote:"note that living ceatures no matter what they are made of, still take damage." So seeing that Cyborgs are living Beings/Creatures, they take Damage from Phase Beamers like any other Mega Damage Living Creature does (think even the Machine People here) or how else could the Cyborgs of the Centeral Alliance so long. -Nuff said.

P.S. I hope to see more on the Central Alliance in a future sourcebook someday.

Except that's not the case, as a cyborg is an SDC creature, or at least the core of it (i.e. brain) implanted into a robotic shell. While the shell is MDC the flesh always remains SDC (except for rare creations like the Anti-Monster). Phase weapons completely ignore the MDC shell to directly damage the remaining flesh inside, which isn't going to have too much when it comes to Hit Points. Yes that means the average cyborg without a protective force field involved somewhere is going to go down fairly quickly provided the person with the phase weapon can successfully hit the organic part (which isn't visible and generally isn't in the head) but that's not an easy shot and it's no different than space pirates liking phase cannons because they can capture ships intact. These weapons are rare though so the average cyborg shouldn't have to worry about them very often if ever depending on the area.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Except that Kevin S. Himself in an offical FAQ said that Borgs are immune to those kinds of problems, and that's why it was added into RUE.

Yes, it dosn't make any logical sense. it's a rule that exists only for game balance.

[Nightmask]

Except that Kevin S. Himself in an offical FAQ said that Borgs are immune to those kinds of problems, and that's why it was added into RUE.

Yes, it dosn't make any logical sense. it's a rule that exists only for game balance.

Afraid I can't see how it could balance things when it's inherently unbalanced and illogical. What were there so many people running around with Phase weapons for no justifiable reason that Borgs got to be a special case of being immune to a weapon that they should be most vulnerable to?

[cornholioprime]

Except that Kevin S. Himself in an offical FAQ said that Borgs are immune to those kinds of problems, and that's why it was added into RUE.

Yes, it dosn't make any logical sense. it's a rule that exists only for game balance.

Afraid I can't see how it could balance things when it's inherently unbalanced and illogical. What were there so many people running around with Phase weapons for no justifiable reason that Borgs got to be a special case of being immune to a weapon that they should be most vulnerable to?

It's a "balance" to Game Play because the remaining "biological bits" of a Palladium Full Conversion Cyborg would logically have only an extremely small number of Hit Points left.
(Remember that ina gaming context, Hit Points in a living creature represents the character's Vital Organs; and a FCB has much less in the way of Vital Organs -and therefore Hit Points -than an ordinary, "whole" person would.)

Were it not for the 'Cyborg Imperviousness" rule, Phase Weapons would fly off the shelves since it would only take a single quick pass across even a whole battlefield of 'Borgs to wipe them out.


If you're trying to look for ABSOLUTE adherence to logic and physics and physiology in every instance, and you absolutely cannot do without it....then you need to keep steppin' past Palladium's line of games, and probably every other fictional gaming system there ever was or ever will be.

[Nightmask]

Afraid I can't see how it could balance things when it's inherently unbalanced and illogical. What were there so many people running around with Phase weapons for no justifiable reason that Borgs got to be a special case of being immune to a weapon that they should be most vulnerable to?

It's a "balance" to Game Play because the remaining "biological bits" of a Palladium Full Conversion Cyborg would logically have only an extremely small number of Hit Points left.
(Remember that ina gaming context, Hit Points in a living creature represents the character's Vital Organs; and a FCB has much less in the way of Vital Organs -and therefore Hit Points -than an ordinary, "whole" person would.)

Were it not for the 'Cyborg Imperviousness" rule, Phase Weapons would fly off the shelves since it would only take a single quick pass across even a whole battlefield of 'Borgs to wipe them out.

That really doesn't follow, cyborgs aren't that numerous and phase weapons already fly off the shelves since I shouldn't have to point out those fleshy sorts in power armor or regular armor don't have all that much SDC or HP either. Sure more than a borg does but you can still kill the wearer a lot easier with a Phase Weapon than waste your time destroying the armor you'd rather capture. The fact you could potentially one shot kill a cyborg really doesn't matter overmuch because Phase Weapons can come close to that against any SDC organic creature trying to survive inside MDC armor. So what we declare everyone in power armor or regular MDC armor is also immune to phase weapons because it's easier to kill them that way? What's good for the borg should be good for the PA pilot.

[KLM]

Hi there!

That really doesn't follow, cyborgs aren't that numerous and phase weapons already fly off the shelves since I shouldn't have to point out those fleshy sorts in power armor or regular armor don't have all that much SDC or HP either.

Hmmm.... Not that there aren't kreeghors in PA, but phase beamers are usually do less damage than - say - a HI pulse rifle.
More exactly need more hits to kill the pilot (even a squishy human) than a HI-80 to destroy your average PA.

Usually. (Except one of my players who routinely applied head shots by a P-21 on oppenents in EBA/PA - his character
was a rather shady guy and a Silhouette RCC ).

Adios
KLM

[Scorpion Leader]

Everyone in a different post has over complicated this matter concerning Cyborbs vs. Phase Beamers. The Solution is really simple treat combat and damage as per normal. Why?? Simple: RU p. 47 says Cyborgs are impervious to weapons that do damage direct to hit points (is consider a mega damage being now). Dimention Book 2: Phase World Clearly States however on p. 122 that Phase Beamers quote:"note that living ceatures no matter what they are made of, still take damage." So seeing that Cyborgs are living Beings/Creatures, they take Damage from Phase Beamers like any other Mega Damage Living Creature does (think even the Machine People here) or how else could the Cyborgs of the Centeral Alliance so long. -Nuff said.

P.S. I hope to see more on the Central Alliance in a future sourcebook someday.

A couple of things I forgot to Mention:
Re: RU p. 47 cyborgs vs. phase weapons Are Subject And Not Subject To This Rule. WHY??
A) Subject to becuase they are Mega Damage Beings/Creatures (That is to say Cyborgs are affectted by MDC weapons only, however Phase weapons do do MDC Damage to MDC Beings/Creatures).

B) Not subject to the Rule as far as Phase Beamers/Weapons (at least) are concerned, becuase Phase Weapons DO NOT do damage directly to Hit Points. They don't skip Characters Physical S.D.C. points and do damage directly to a Characters Hit points. They deduct damage as per normal combat rules from SDC first and then from Hit points (for SDC/HP beings/creatures of course).

What does this mean then?? Well do to the nature of Cyborgs they are not invulnerable to Phase Weapons becuase they are not all machine, but nor are the overly vulnerable; for they are not complely Organic in nature. So No they aren't invulnerable to Phase Weapons (They can be killed by them like any other MDC being/Creature in the same manner, see my last post above) but You Can't Just Cheap Shot a cyborg to the vulnerable Organic Components (ie. Brain) of a Cyborg either and there by almost instanly killing them or turning them into a vegatable (They are MDC beings/Creatures after all and don't have any SDC/HP per RU rules. It would not be Fair and would unblance Game Mechanics too much. But please Note Kevin himself mentioned that things Don't have to be entirely fair just as in real life. Read RU or the GM's Guide through again. But that being said No you can't just unbalance the Game too far like that!! there would be no fun in playing the game then).

But seeing that Phase weapons use Technology and Enegries NOT understood by Anyone (even in the Three Galaxaes) except the Promeathans (as they seem to be a type of 4th dimentional weapon system, at least in part) and therefore affect living beings and their lifeforce on a level not understood by conventional science, cyborgs are vunerable to them like any other SDC/HP or MDC being/creature are per standard Rules.

So as I said in my last post The Only FAIR Way to deal with Phase Weapons Vs. Cyborgs is to deal with Combat in the Normal/Standard MDC Combat Rules (MD Being/MD Creature/MD Structure) manner. PHASE WEAPONS AFFECT LIVING BEINGS/CREATURES NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE MADE OF, be it a Machine Person or in this case a Cyborg (see p.122 Dimension Book 2: Phase World). Therefore Cyborgs are Living Creatures, but only vunerable to Phase Weapons via MDC Damage as thier SDC/HP has been replaced by MDC now counting as their SDC/HP or Lifeforce. As per p.122 as stated above Living Beings are Affected No Matter What They Are Made of!!

If a Machine Person is Affected By Them (as they are condidered Living Beings, even if they are Machines) via MDC Damage, so would a Cyborg be affected (MDC Damage Only!!) KEY WORDS HERE PEPOPLE: AFFECTS LIVING BEINGS/CREATURES (no matter what they are made of)!!!

If its considered a Living Being/Creature then they are AFFECTED by Phase Weapons No Matter What!!

The weapon would pass through the Cyborg (Body) Armor unaffected (as per standard regarding Phase Weapons and Body Armor), but would deduct Damage from the Combination Man/Machine MDC Body Below like any other MDC Creature/Being!!

Remember unless replaced with all Bionic componets/parts there are still parts of the cyborg are either organic, Bio-Systems (Cloned Artifical Oganic replacement organs), or Cybernetic Systems (partly oganic??); all of which would and should be affected by Phase Energy.

Once more Phase Weapons even affect Gods, Dragons, Supernatural Beings, Alien Intelligences, Splugorth Intelligences, Vampire Intelligences, Vampires and the alike etc, etc; so there is NO Reason why they Would not affect Cyborgs!! So if there where any arguement to be made is how can they affect such creature, especailly Vampires as they are part of the Undead and can hardly be considered Living Beings/Creatures (But hey that's another seperate arguement, that is not our focus here; also it is all just part of the strange nature of Phase Weapons)!!

-Simple and Easy!! Logical and Fair !! No More Arugement!! Nuff Said!!

Lastly: GEE CYBORGS are EVEN LUCKIER than Machine People, as at Least they are not affected by certain types of Magic and Psionics, where as Machine People Still ARE!!!

Note: In The Three Galaxies at least most, but not all cyborgs, would most likely have a Force Feild (most likely one of the Nurani types) as extra protection vs. phase weapons.

[cornholioprime]

That really doesn't follow, cyborgs aren't that numerous and phase weapons already fly off the shelves since I shouldn't have to point out those fleshy sorts in power armor or regular armor don't have all that much SDC or HP either. Sure more than a borg does but you can still kill the wearer a lot easier with a Phase Weapon than waste your time destroying the armor you'd rather capture. The fact you could potentially one shot kill a cyborg really doesn't matter overmuch because Phase Weapons can come close to that against any SDC organic creature trying to survive inside MDC armor. So what we declare everyone in power armor or regular MDC armor is also immune to phase weapons because it's easier to kill them that way? What's good for the borg should be good for the PA pilot.

You're still trying to make LOGICAL arguments as a rebuttal for what Palladium Books has done in this instance.

It's not a LOGICAL explanation.
It's non-logical, 'non-common sensical,' utterly implausible, in-game handwavium done on the part of the Authors so as to make the game more playable -and in this case, make 'Borgs a lot more survivable.
Just one example out of many in this fictional game setting, like the 20-year Nuclear Batteries or the Counter-Orbital Debris Field.

It's Rifts.™ It doesn't [always] have to make sense.

[Scorpion Leader]

Except that Kevin S. Himself in an offical FAQ said that Borgs are immune to those kinds of problems, and that's why it was added into RUE.

Yes, it dosn't make any logical sense. it's a rule that exists only for game balance.

Well lets just examine this Arugement for a moment, as there is an INHERENT POTENTIAL MAJOR FLAW WITH IT!!

If we take this arguement to the extreme (Devil's Advocate Here) "THEN CYBORGS CAN NOT BE AFECTED BY ANY WEAPONS WHAT SO EVER!!" There I said it Cyborgs cannot be killed, they can not Die!! HUH!! WHY??!! Well if you folow the rules that govern MDC Characters, their MDC in equal to HP/SDC of a Normal Character. That means their MDC is their HIT POINTS!! NOW on p.47 of RU cannot be damaged by Attacks that do damage directly to Hit Points. SO therefore Logically speaking as MDC for Cyborgs (and other MDC Beings/Creatures) is equivallant (for them) to HIT POINTS (SDC) of a Normal Mortal (or Organic) Character, the above Rule means they Cannot Be Killed!! NO Weapon not even MD Weapons can kill them!! ALL becuase they are not harmed by Attacks that do damage direct to their HIT POINTS, and in the case of CYBORGS, Their MDC is what is considered as Hit Points for them, so they cannot die!! You see the insane logic there!! All Psionics, Magic, MD Weapons that do damage to the MDC of an MDC Being/Creature; but a Cyborg is immune to all such Attacks that do damage to their HIT POINTS, or rather their MDC as That is what MDC is for them, their equivallant to Hit Points (SDC)!!

Now Note I know that is not what is intended by that Rule (and I'm sure what I've pointed out Kevin kinnda Missed, when he made the new Rule on p.47 of RU), I'm however just pointing out the Potential Flaw that could be & can be exploited by crafty GM's and Player's.

So using this Rule as your sole basis of your arguement as to why Cyborgs cannot be affected by Phase weapons is on VERY ROCKY GROUND at best Nekira. Becuase as you see if taken to the extreme we have now unbalanced the game too far in the other direction (and more than a bit in your favor I might add), as also is not the true intent of that "rule" on p.47 of RU.


SEE: None of this is Logical , but that is how the Game and Phase Weapons work. Also Phase weapons should not be available or at least a very very ultra rare item, like a Rune Weapon (a potentially even more unbalancing item to the game then a phase weapon I might add) in a normal Rifts Campain.

[Scorpion Leader]

JUST Remember this is My solution to the problem and my opioin and may not be the same as yours.

[Scorpion Leader]

That really doesn't follow, cyborgs aren't that numerous and phase weapons already fly off the shelves since I shouldn't have to point out those fleshy sorts in power armor or regular armor don't have all that much SDC or HP either. Sure more than a borg does but you can still kill the wearer a lot easier with a Phase Weapon than waste your time destroying the armor you'd rather capture. The fact you could potentially one shot kill a cyborg really doesn't matter overmuch because Phase Weapons can come close to that against any SDC organic creature trying to survive inside MDC armor. So what we declare everyone in power armor or regular MDC armor is also immune to phase weapons because it's easier to kill them that way? What's good for the borg should be good for the PA pilot.

You're still trying to make LOGICAL arguments as a rebuttal for what Palladium Books has done in this instance.

It's not a LOGICAL explanation.
It's non-logical, 'non-common sensical,' utterly implausible, in-game handwavium done on the part of the Authors so as to make the game more playable -and in this case, make 'Borgs a lot more survivable.
Just one example out of many in this fictional game setting, like the 20-year Nuclear Batteries or the Counter-Orbital Debris Field.

It's Rifts.™ It doesn't [always] have to make sense.

that is your opinion my friend , but you are wrong on so many levels and this is indeed logical. See my addtional posts here for further reasons why.

[cornholioprime]

That really doesn't follow, cyborgs aren't that numerous and phase weapons already fly off the shelves since I shouldn't have to point out those fleshy sorts in power armor or regular armor don't have all that much SDC or HP either. Sure more than a borg does but you can still kill the wearer a lot easier with a Phase Weapon than waste your time destroying the armor you'd rather capture. The fact you could potentially one shot kill a cyborg really doesn't matter overmuch because Phase Weapons can come close to that against any SDC organic creature trying to survive inside MDC armor. So what we declare everyone in power armor or regular MDC armor is also immune to phase weapons because it's easier to kill them that way? What's good for the borg should be good for the PA pilot.

You're still trying to make LOGICAL arguments as a rebuttal for what Palladium Books has done in this instance.

It's not a LOGICAL explanation.
It's non-logical, 'non-common sensical,' utterly implausible, in-game handwavium done on the part of the Authors so as to make the game more playable -and in this case, make 'Borgs a lot more survivable.
Just one example out of many in this fictional game setting, like the 20-year Nuclear Batteries or the Counter-Orbital Debris Field.

It's Rifts.™ It doesn't [always] have to make sense.

that is your opinion my friend , but you are wrong on so many levels and this is indeed logical. See my addtional posts here for further reasons why.

It's not an "opinion."

It's a stated 'fact' from the creator and author of this game setting.
His Game, his Rules -even the ones that aren't logical....one of which is that Palladium 'Borgs inexplicably, magically, implausibly, "turn into" MDC beings through and through, and which therefore for purposes of gameplay don't have an SDC center to exploit.

They aren't even treated as 'living beings' unless and until their MDC is reduced to zero and THEN their SDC innards are 'exposed' and have to be put into another 'Borg or on life support within 24-48 hours.


Flesh-in-armor Cyborgs can't be affected by Phase Weapons, but flesh-in-any-other-type-of-armor living beings can. Doesn't make a lick of sense, we all know...EXCEPT in context of gameplay.

[Nightmask]

It's not an "opinion."

It's a stated 'fact' from the creator and author of this game setting.
His Game, his Rules -even the ones that aren't logical....one of which is that Palladium 'Borgs inexplicably, magically, implausibly, "turn into" MDC beings through and through, and which therefore for purposes of gameplay don't have an SDC center to exploit.

Which is where 'the GM is free to change any rule that he feels doesn't make sense or inhibits game play and fun' takes over, as it really over-inflates the availability of phase weapons and wants to hide from the idea that a borg could be take out in a hit or two from a phase beamer to its organics as if everything requires a long drawn-out fight to defeat. Except of course those SDC sorts who get hit by a 'measly' 1 MD point and die instantly, they get to continue dying one-shot/one-kill.

If a GM is using those weapons to wipe out a PC borg and they show up a lot that's a killer GM, and one that doesn't like cyborgs, as the weapons shouldn't be that common that people are going 'oh yeah I've got my anti-Borg Phase gun right here' anytime a borg shows up (either on the PC part or the NPC part). It's a problem easily enough solved by simply allowing a borg feature for purchase that generates a Force Field around the organic parts in settings that know of phase beamers requiring more trouble to kill than a one shot/one-kill deal.

[cornholioprime]

It's not an "opinion."

It's a stated 'fact' from the creator and author of this game setting.
His Game, his Rules -even the ones that aren't logical....one of which is that Palladium 'Borgs inexplicably, magically, implausibly, "turn into" MDC beings through and through, and which therefore for purposes of gameplay don't have an SDC center to exploit.

Which is where 'the GM is free to change any rule that he feels doesn't make sense.....

When questions are submitted to the Boards, the standard response -barring any specific requests to the contrary from the questioner -is for the person who replies to the Question to give a canon answer.

And the 'canon' answer to the question in question is the nonsensical handwavium we are given from the Book's author.

(Believe me, folks, I don't like the explanation any more than you do, but I understand why it was made; Kevin HATES Silver Bullets in his games.)

[Nightmask]

When questions are submitted to the Boards, the standard response -barring any specific requests to the contrary from the questioner -is for the person who replies to the Question to give a canon answer.

And the 'canon' answer to the question in question is the nonsensical handwavium we are given from the Book's author.

(Believe me, folks, I don't like the explanation any more than you do, but I understand why it was made; Kevin HATES Silver Bullets in his games.)

If only he'd taken a moment to come up with a response that made sense (like the internal Force Field) if it bothered him that much than tossing out literal handwavium. Not like Phase Beamers don't have weaknesses that can't be exploited, even a weak force field stops them.

[Scorpion Leader]

Listen everyone My inetent with this Post WAS NOT TO DEBATE THIS entire issue over again!!!!!
What I Have done is presented You with is an option based on my personal understanding and interpretaion of the RULES as Presented on p.47 of RU and p.122 of Dimension Book 2: Phase World.

Seems almost everyone who has posted here has some how lost the ability to use reason, logic, and the ability to interpret the RULEs for themselves. Now let me ask you if Kevin wrote (have your character) go jump off a bridge to your doom on p.47 of RU, would you do it???!!! Just becuase it says so thats the rule presented!!! OF course Not!!! Also Kevin would Never Do such a Thing!! Remember Kevin has been wrong before and corrected himself. For petes sake he even rewrote the entire combat system becuase the original one presented when Rifts was first published was not working out as he had planed. Everyone is starting to seem like Lemmings in here I hate to say. Also why does everyone seem to ignor the Rules about Phase Weapons on p.122 of Dimension Book 2 Phase World?? are they not Offical Rules as well??

I tried to present a solution to the problem, again BASED ON THE RULES, on my interpretation of the rules as a GM (as that what matters in the end). Of course it would be better if an Offical Ruling came down from on high, but as of yet it has not. So I tried to come up with a reasonable compromise on this issue for both Sides/Camps of this Issue. Everyone is titled their opinion. Remember This is opinion on the Subject and may not be same as yours.

I just ask everone to please take off thier blinders for once and try to look at what I presented on its merits first before all your pre-judgements. If You like what I presented in these posts on the issue thats Fine and all good for you. If You don't like it and don't want to use what I've prsented, well that's Fine too.

I however don't see why (or how anyonegains by) everyone coming to look at a post to offer them a solution and then ignoring it based on thier preconception on how they feel it should be. Instead of looking at the merits, everyone is too busy at tearing apart the what is presented without truely examining it first. That is why I don't Post that much any more, as these things sometimes get out of control and then the post gets locked out, and then how does that benifit anyone?????

But like I said first open your minds first and leave your prejudgements behind and open up and expand your minds. You have to unlearn what you think you know, before you can learn something new.

This can be sumed up in the following anchient proverb: "To realize that our knoweledge is ignorance is noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness shall we cease to be sick.....this is the secret of Health" - Lao Tzu (also a secret of good gaming I might add)

Well this Shall be my final post here. So if you want to continue debating go right on ahead. I however won't.
I'm satisfied with what I presented as a solution to the problem and question on hand as a peaceful median to both side/camps of the issue.

Scorpion Leader Out

-end of line....

[Nightmask]

Listen everyone My inetent with this Post WAS NOT TO DEBATE THIS entire issue over again!!!!!
What I Have done is presented You with is an option based on my personal understanding and interpretaion of the RULES as Presented on p.47 of RU and p.122 of Dimension Book 2: Phasse World. Seems almost everyone who has posted here has some how lost the abiity to use reason logic and the ability to interpret the RULEs for themselves. Now let me ask you if Kevin wrote go jump of the a bridge to your doom on p.47 of RU, would you do it???!!! OF course Not!!! Also Kevin would Never Do such a Thing!! Remember Kevin has been wrong before and corrected himself. For petes sake he even rewrote the entire combat system becuase the original one presented when Rifts was first published was not working out as he had planed. Everyone is starting to seem like Lemmings in here I hate to say. I tried to present a solution to the problem, again BASED ON THE RULES, on my interpretation of the rules as a GM (as that what matters in the end). Of course it would be better if a Offical Ruling came down from on high, but as of yet has not, to settle the issue. So I tried to come up with a reasonable compromise on this issue for both Side/camps of this Issue. Everyone is titled their opinion. Remeber This is opinion on the Subject and may not be same as yours. I just ask everone to please take off thier blinders for once and try to look at what I presented on its merits first before all your pre-judgements. If You like what I presented in these posts on the issue thats Fine and all good for you. If You don't like it and don't want to use what I've prsented, well that's Fine too. I however don't see why (or gains by) everyone coming to look at a post to offer them a solution and then ignoring it based on thier preconception on how they feel it should be. Instead of looking at the merits, everyone is too busy at tearing apart the what is presented without truely examining it first. That is why I don't Post that much any more, as these things sometimes get out of control and then the post gets locked out, and then how does that benifit anyone?????

But like I said first open your minds first and leave your prejudgements behind and open up and expand your minds. You have to unlearn what you think you know, before you can learn something new.

This can be sumed up in the following anchient proverb: "To realize that our knoweledge is ignorance is noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness shall we cease to be sick.....this is the secret of Health" - Lao Tzu (also a secret of good gaming I might add)

Well this Shall be my final post here. So if you want to continue debating go right on ahead. I however won't.
I'm satisfied with what I presented as a solution to the problem and question on hand as a peaceful median to both side/camps of the issue.

Scorpion Leader Out

-end of line....

You know, I think you are the one that had the failure there questioning everyone else's ability to use reason and logic, because we were using both. The rules however violate reason and logic hence the disagreement. A human brain is a mere SDC/HP kind of thing, unless you're putting it into a magical cyborg like the Anti-Monster it remains so no matter how much MDC the Cyborg shell has. Phase beamers deal SDC/HP damage to SDC/HP creatures, which is what in the end that brain is. It's no more than the essential part of a human being tucked into a powerful robotic shell and in the end no different than a full-bodied human being in a suit of power armor save that the human in power armor has more SDC/HP because he's got an entire body to work with.

The rule and logic don't line up, and some of us don't hold to a 'book before logic and common sense' stance, we expect the rules to actually make sense rather than contradict logic.

[Scorpion Leader]

Listen everyone My inetent with this Post WAS NOT TO DEBATE THIS entire issue over again!!!!!
What I Have done is presented You with is an option based on my personal understanding and interpretaion of the RULES as Presented on p.47 of RU and p.122 of Dimension Book 2: Phase World. Seems almost everyone who has posted here has some how lost the abiity to use reason logic and the ability to interpret the RULEs for themselves. Now let me ask you if Kevin wrote go jump of the a bridge to your doom on p.47 of RU, would you do it???!!! OF course Not!!! Also Kevin would Never Do such a Thing!! Remember Kevin has been wrong before and corrected himself. For petes sake he even rewrote the entire combat system becuase the original one presented when Rifts was first published was not working out as he had planed. Everyone is starting to seem like Lemmings in here I hate to say. I tried to present a solution to the problem, again BASED ON THE RULES, on my interpretation of the rules as a GM (as that what matters in the end). Of course it would be better if a Offical Ruling came down from on high, but as of yet has not, to settle the issue. So I tried to come up with a reasonable compromise on this issue for both Side/camps of this Issue. Everyone is titled their opinion. Remeber This is opinion on the Subject and may not be same as yours. I just ask everone to please take off thier blinders for once and try to look at what I presented on its merits first before all your pre-judgements. If You like what I presented in these posts on the issue thats Fine and all good for you. If You don't like it and don't want to use what I've prsented, well that's Fine too. I however don't see why (or gains by) everyone coming to look at a post to offer them a solution and then ignoring it based on thier preconception on how they feel it should be. Instead of looking at the merits, everyone is too busy at tearing apart the what is presented without truely examining it first. That is why I don't Post that much any more, as these things sometimes get out of control and then the post gets locked out, and then how does that benifit anyone?????

But like I said first open your minds first and leave your prejudgements behind and open up and expand your minds. You have to unlearn what you think you know, before you can learn something new.

This can be sumed up in the following anchient proverb: "To realize that our knoweledge is ignorance is noble insight. To regard our ignorance as knowledge, this is mental sickness. Only when we are sick of our sickness shall we cease to be sick.....this is the secret of Health" - Lao Tzu (also a secret of good gaming I might add)

Well this Shall be my final post here. So if you want to continue debating go right on ahead. I however won't.
I'm satisfied with what I presented as a solution to the problem and question on hand as a peaceful median to both side/camps of the issue.

Scorpion Leader Out

-end of line....

You know, I think you are the one that had the failure there questioning everyone else's ability to use reason and logic, because we were using both. The rules however violate reason and logic hence the disagreement. A human brain is a mere SDC/HP kind of thing, unless you're putting it into a magical cyborg like the Anti-Monster it remains so no matter how much MDC the Cyborg shell has. Phase beamers deal SDC/HP damage to SDC/HP creatures, which is what in the end that brain is. It's no more than the essential part of a human being tucked into a powerful robotic shell and in the end no different than a full-bodied human being in a suit of power armor save that the human in power armor has more SDC/HP because he's got an entire body to work with.

The rule and logic don't line up, and some of us don't hold to a 'book before logic and common sense' stance, we expect the rules to actually make sense rather than contradict logic.

The rules do not necessarly defy reason or logic, as I have shown. However p. 47 RU is questionable as I pointed out; or did you miss my post above on how the Cyborgs immune to attacks directly to HP could be taken and interprted to far (and actually helps your cuase in away).What I have posted here was a solution base on the rules an my interpretaion of them, that also more than your side helps your side of the out (or can you not see that). The only contention is you want to chep shot and kill Cyborgs almost instantly with a Phase Weapon, where as I say to be Fair and equatable to all side s of the issue Cyborgs are not invulnerable to Phase Weapons nor can you MIST the organic componets straight out. I compromised and said the damage Has to be MD from their MDC and gave you explanation on how this all still works (mind you agian more to your camps favor I might add), just not in the way you would like and want it. I only gave an opinion to apease both sides. but can see that is never going to happen. My Stance remains my stance accept it or not. I do not in the end favor either side in this solution but only offer a compromise between the two sides (even though some would say my stance favors your side than theirs, but my stance is based on the Rules and maybe some possible loophole in them as the currenly stand.

Now I' d like to put this issue to bed and really make this my last post on this.

[Nightmask]

The rules do not necessarly defy reason or logic, as I have shown. However p. 47 RU is questionable as I pointed out; or did you miss my post above on how the Cyborgs immune to attacks directly to HP could be taken and interprted to far (and actually helps your cuase in away).What I have posted here was a solution base on the rules an my interpretaion of them, that also more than your side helps your side of the out (or can you not see that). The only contention is you want to chep shot and kill Cyborgs almost instantly with a Phase Weapon, where as I say to be Fair and equatable to all side s of the issue Cyborgs are not invulnerable to Phase Weapons nor can you MIST the organic componets straight out. I compromised and said the damage Has to be MD from their MDC and gave you explanation on how this all still works (mind you agian more to your camps favor I might add), just not in the way you would like and want it. I only gave an opinion to apease both sides. but can see that is never going to happen. My Stance remains my stance accept it or not. I do not in the end favor either side in this solution but only offer a compromise between the two sides (even though some would say my stance favors your side than theirs, but my stance is based on the Rules and maybe some possible loophole in them as the currenly stand.

Now I' d like to put this issue to bed and really make this my last post on this.

Fine, my final word would be that you're reading way too much into my position to equate it with wanting to be able to cheap-shot cyborgs. That's a conclusion without any supporting evidence just an opinion that anyone pointing out how illogical the rule is must be wanting to 'cheat' rather than simply pointing out the rule contradicts other rules (those for phase weapons). I supplied a solution (a cyborg force field add-on one could purchase to protect the internal organics) that doesn't require a contradictory rule that doesn't work within the established nature of the weapon in question.

[cornholioprime]

By the way:

I'm not trying to poop on the point -and premise -being made by the OP, but:


Palladium Cyborgs, normally, are NOT examples of "Living MDC Metal Beings."

They are, in gaming terms, Robots with brains in them; and as such, the Phase Beam wouldn't harm the 'Borg's body, either.

Examples of cyborgs that are actual "Living MDC Metal Bodies" include but are not limited to such characters as

Dar Rostigola (sp?), of Tolkeen's Council of Twelve (transferred intelligence into Iron Golem);
Salkind, the Metal Mage (I think that he might also be one of Tolkeen's Council; a unique alien experiment);
and of course, Lord Frommalaine (successful experiment of Doctor Articulus).


Also......for whoever said it in the Thread.....Machine People aren't alive.
They're sentient, but not alive (even though they reproduce sexually and have a finite lifespan) -they don't even have PPE.

Like Palladium Cyborgs, they would be effectively impervious to Phase Weaponry.

[Chronicle]

I would say it has to do with the percentage of living tissue is actually in the cyborg. Which in most cases, to prevent my PCs from being insta-gibbed. I will rule that the Phase Beamer does MDC to the cyborg's armor. That is how my game will be run. Do what you will in yours

[Scorpion Leader]

Everyone in a different post has over complicated this matter concerning Cyborbs vs. Phase Beamers. The Solution is really simple treat combat and damage as per normal. Why?? Simple: RU p. 47 says Cyborgs are impervious to weapons that do damage direct to hit points (is consider a mega damage being now). Dimention Book 2: Phase World Clearly States however on p. 122 that Phase Beamers quote:"note that living ceatures no matter what they are made of, still take damage." So seeing that Cyborgs are living Beings/Creatures, they take Damage from Phase Beamers like any other Mega Damage Living Creature does (think even the Machine People here) or how else could the Cyborgs of the Centeral Alliance so long. -Nuff said.

P.S. I hope to see more on the Central Alliance in a future sourcebook someday.

A couple of things I forgot to Mention:
Re: RU p. 47 cyborgs vs. phase weapons Are Subject And Not Subject To This Rule. WHY??
A) Subject to becuase they are Mega Damage Beings/Creatures (That is to say Cyborgs are affectted by MDC weapons only, however Phase weapons do do MDC Damage to MDC Beings/Creatures).

B) Not subject to the Rule as far as Phase Beamers/Weapons (at least) are concerned, becuase Phase Weapons DO NOT do damage directly to Hit Points. They don't skip Characters Physical S.D.C. points and do damage directly to a Characters Hit points. They deduct damage as per normal combat rules from SDC first and then from Hit points (for SDC/HP beings/creatures of course).

What does this mean then?? Well do to the nature of Cyborgs they are not invulnerable to Phase Weapons becuase they are not all machine, but nor are the overly vulnerable; for they are not complely Organic in nature. So No they aren't invulnerable to Phase Weapons (They can be killed by them like any other MDC being/Creature in the same manner, see my last post above) but You Can't Just Cheap Shot a cyborg to the vulnerable Organic Components (ie. Brain) of a Cyborg either and there by almost instanly killing them or turning them into a vegatable (They are MDC beings/Creatures after all and don't have any SDC/HP per RU rules. It would not be Fair and would unblance Game Mechanics too much. But please Note Kevin himself mentioned that things Don't have to be entirely fair just as in real life. Read RU or the GM's Guide through again. But that being said No you can't just unbalance the Game too far like that!! there would be no fun in playing the game then).

But seeing that Phase weapons use Technology and Enegries NOT understood by Anyone (even in the Three Galaxaes) except the Promeathans (as they seem to be a type of 4th dimentional weapon system, at least in part) and therefore affect living beings and their lifeforce on a level not understood by conventional science, cyborgs are vunerable to them like any other SDC/HP or MDC being/creature are per standard Rules.

So as I said in my last post The Only FAIR Way to deal with Phase Weapons Vs. Cyborgs is to deal with Combat in the Normal/Standard MDC Combat Rules (MD Being/MD Creature/MD Structure) manner. PHASE WEAPONS AFFECT LIVING BEINGS/CREATURES NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE MADE OF, be it a Machine Person or in this case a Cyborg (see p.122 Dimension Book 2: Phase World). Therefore Cyborgs are Living Creatures, but only vunerable to Phase Weapons via MDC Damage as thier SDC/HP has been replaced by MDC now counting as their SDC/HP or Lifeforce. As per p.122 as stated above Living Beings are Affected No Matter What They Are Made of!!

If a Machine Person is Affected By Them (as they are condidered Living Beings, even if they are Machines) via MDC Damage, so would a Cyborg be affected (MDC Damage Only!!) KEY WORDS HERE PEPOPLE: AFFECTS LIVING BEINGS/CREATURES (no matter what they are made of)!!!

If its considered a Living Being/Creature then they are AFFECTED by Phase Weapons No Matter What!!

The weapon would pass through the Cyborg (Body) Armor unaffected (as per standard regarding Phase Weapons and Body Armor), but would deduct Damage from the Combination Man/Machine MDC Body Below like any other MDC Creature/Being!!

Remember unless replaced with all Bionic componets/parts there are still parts of the cyborg are either organic, Bio-Systems (Cloned Artifical Oganic replacement organs), or Cybernetic Systems (partly oganic??); all of which would and should be affected by Phase Energy.

Once more Phase Weapons even affect Gods, Dragons, Supernatural Beings, Alien Intelligences, Splugorth Intelligences, Vampire Intelligences, Vampires and the alike etc, etc; so there is NO Reason why they Would not affect Cyborgs!! So if there where any arguement to be made is how can they affect such creature, especailly Vampires as they are part of the Undead and can hardly be considered Living Beings/Creatures (But hey that's another seperate arguement, that is not our focus here; also it is all just part of the strange nature of Phase Weapons)!!

-Simple and Easy!! Logical and Fair !! No More Arugement!! Nuff Said!!

Lastly: GEE CYBORGS are EVEN LUCKIER than Machine People, as at Least they are not affected by certain types of Magic and Psionics, where as Machine People Still ARE!!!

Note: In The Three Galaxies at least most, but not all cyborgs, would most likely have a Force Feild (most likely one of the Nurani types) as extra protection vs. phase weapons.

Okay Now here is the is some of the information about Phase Technology and Phase Beamers/Weapons "Offically" From Dimension BooK TWO: Phase World p.122 Left column Titled Phase Technology (Qoute):

"The Prometheans have developed a unique form of technology (maybe techno-wizardry) that uses dimentional phasing as its base. Phase technology cuases objects to "step out of phase" regarding the normal thre-dimentional world. Depending on the intewnsity of the phase feild, the object can either be completely removed from normal space, or be partially out of phase." (end qoute)

From p.122 Right Side Colunm Titled Phase Beamers (Qoute):

"The phase beamer projects a phase feild onto the target. This feild disrupts the target's vital functions , inflicting a great deal of damage.

(note disrupts vital functions NOT Direct damage to Hit Points. But a full conversion borg is still vulnerable becuase they do have "Vital" (life support) Functions that can be dirupted. et'al)

What makes the beamer so effective is that the feild effectively bypasses any type of armor the target is Wearing!

(note: says armor as in body armor not Cybernetic/Bionic implants, limbs,Body or Cyberknight Cyber "Living" Armor et'al.)

Not only that, it affects both SDC (normal humans, for instance) and MDC creatures, inflicting roughtly the same amount of damage.

(note again do to the Rule on p. 47 of RU Cyborgs are concidered MDC Beings/Creatures therefore only supseptable to MD Damage be it Weapon, Spell, or Psionics. However this again does not me they are immune to phase weapons it purely means, as i've stated before that they take MD damage like any other MDC being/creature from phase weapons. et'al.)

The feild also disrupts the natural defenses and healing of its victims, including bio-regeneration. Even vampires and supernatural beings suffer from this weapon, because the energies that animates and/or enpowers them are disrupted and dispelled............The Phase feild is not disruptive enough to damage metals, and most non-living things (note that living creatures, no matter what they are made of, still take damage)." (end qoute)

Now regarding The unique nature of a full conversion borg as what I mentioned about their Man/Machine nature and why phase weapons still harm them but only MDC damage wise. For as far as Phase Technology is concerned cybernetics/bionics are concidered "in a very loose sense" living (symbiosis perhaps) parts (much like cyber-knight cyber-armor as a loose example is) of the character. This can be noted on p. 125 of Dimension book Two: Phase World under the listing for Phase-Tech Med Kit.

(Qoute):".....Among other things, the med kit can remove bullets, shrapnel, and other foreign objects embedded in a patient's body by turing them insubstantial; the inorganic objects drop right out and can be picked up and thrown away! Cybernetics and bionic implants are not affected because they are attached to nerurological system of the character so they phase out too...." (end qoute)

Now i'm sure both sides of this issue will have an opinion and take the above way out of context to prove their point. But what I feel it means is that this gives proof to p. 47 RU that Full Conversion Cyborgs are indeed MDC Being/Creatures and that their cybernetic/bionic parts where Phase Technology is concerned is indeed considered (the term agian loosely used here) living parts of them. Therfore they can only be harmed by MDC Damage as stated on p.47 of RU as being MDC Beings/Creatures. However the above regarding Phase-Tech Med Kits SHOULD NOT be used to claim (as I'm sure some of you will try to prove and to use it as an excuse for such) that Cyborgs are immune to Phase Weapons; THEY ARE NOT!! What the above shows is the Very Unique Nature of a Cyborg being Man/Machine; being both things at once and yet being neither at the same time.


Now for the poster who said Machine People are not Living (just sentient) I suggest you look at p. 77 of Dimention Book Two: Phase World again. (Qoute):

"On the surface, it would appear that the so-called machine people are nothing more than a large group of robots that share a common designer. Nothing could be further from the truth. the machine people are a race of thinking, fully intelligent machines. They are metallic creatures able to feel emotions and who can be heroic and villainous as any breathing being.....The scientist designed a super race of robotic beings. They used their latest advances and created artifical brains that had lifelike funtions. They even programmed into their creations the ability to have emotions and to act in ways based on humanoid behavior. (Now Take Note Here; et'al) The Robots were built out of revolutionary living metal, basically nano-machines (microscopic robots) like living human cells that could repair damage and even assume different forms and functions to match the situation!.......The artifical race was given the power to reproduce, and created two genders who could mate and give "life" to a life form combining the best elements of both parents' design!" (end quote)

From p. 78 (Qoute): "Their amazing powers and the fact that they were living machines that could reproduce scared many people. Rumors spread based on wild imaginings that these living machines could multiply uncontrolably and over run the Three Galaxies....The Consortium's Congress, however became hopelessly deadlocked in a debate whether or not they were a "true" life-form and worthy of the Consortium's protection. before a decision could be made (and in the end, hte Congress voted to accept them), the machine people had to choose between surrender or destruction." (end qoute) SEE the rest of the Dicription of the Machine People on Pages 77-80 of Rifts: Dimension Book Two: Phase World for further detail about them.

SO YES, MACHINE PEPOLE ARE LIVING BEINGS!!!!

[Chronicle]

The symbosis between man and machine. The brains electrical currents have direct control of the cyborg body. In essence making an extension of the character. A hard situation to work for or against when it comes to phase beamers. I stand by my choice, if only for the sake of the game's balance.

[Galroth]

Except that Kevin S. Himself in an offical FAQ said that Borgs are immune to those kinds of problems, and that's why it was added into RUE.

Yes, it dosn't make any logical sense. it's a rule that exists only for game balance.

Afraid I can't see how it could balance things when it's inherently unbalanced and illogical. What were there so many people running around with Phase weapons for no justifiable reason that Borgs got to be a special case of being immune to a weapon that they should be most vulnerable to?

Let's say you are a player who's running a 'Borg character. You've scrimped and saved until you had enough money to afford a fancy new body with all the bells and whistles. How would you feel if as you were walking out of the clinic a cyber-jacker with a fancy phase pistol was waiting for you, he pulls the trigger maybe two or three times and you are dead. Your fancy new body is gone and you are making a new character. Does that sound like a fun and balanced game from the perspective of the person playing the 'Borg?

[Nightmask]

Except that Kevin S. Himself in an offical FAQ said that Borgs are immune to those kinds of problems, and that's why it was added into RUE.

Yes, it dosn't make any logical sense. it's a rule that exists only for game balance.

Afraid I can't see how it could balance things when it's inherently unbalanced and illogical. What were there so many people running around with Phase weapons for no justifiable reason that Borgs got to be a special case of being immune to a weapon that they should be most vulnerable to?

Let's say you are a player who's running a 'Borg character. You've scrimped and saved until you had enough money to afford a fancy new body with all the bells and whistles. How would you feel if as you were walking out of the clinic a cyber-jacker with a fancy phase pistol was waiting for you, he pulls the trigger maybe two or three times and you are dead. Your fancy new body is gone and you are making a new character. Does that sound like a fun and balanced game from the perspective of the person playing the 'Borg?

I'd feel the GM intentionally screwed me over and never be a player in one of his game's again, since that's obviously a GM screwing with you. Someone just popping up with a weapon that can one-shot kill me in a 'bang you're dead' scenario doesn't happen unless the GM is out to mess with you. Like the player who posted regarding his GM right after he acquired a nice new Naruni weapon pulling off a critical shot in their first fight and in the first round specifically targeting the magazine and ruling it exploded killing everyone. That's not about game balance that's about how fair or how much of an @$$ your GM decides to be.

[Galroth]

Except that Kevin S. Himself in an offical FAQ said that Borgs are immune to those kinds of problems, and that's why it was added into RUE.

Yes, it dosn't make any logical sense. it's a rule that exists only for game balance.

Afraid I can't see how it could balance things when it's inherently unbalanced and illogical. What were there so many people running around with Phase weapons for no justifiable reason that Borgs got to be a special case of being immune to a weapon that they should be most vulnerable to?

Let's say you are a player who's running a 'Borg character. You've scrimped and saved until you had enough money to afford a fancy new body with all the bells and whistles. How would you feel if as you were walking out of the clinic a cyber-jacker with a fancy phase pistol was waiting for you, he pulls the trigger maybe two or three times and you are dead. Your fancy new body is gone and you are making a new character. Does that sound like a fun and balanced game from the perspective of the person playing the 'Borg?

I'd feel the GM intentionally screwed me over and never be a player in one of his game's again, since that's obviously a GM screwing with you. Someone just popping up with a weapon that can one-shot kill me in a 'bang you're dead' scenario doesn't happen unless the GM is out to mess with you. Like the player who posted regarding his GM right after he acquired a nice new Naruni weapon pulling off a critical shot in their first fight and in the first round specifically targeting the magazine and ruling it exploded killing everyone. That's not about game balance that's about how fair or how much of an @$$ your GM decides to be.

The problem is, if phase weapons did that to 'Borgs, there would be a guy or guys with them outside of every cyberdoc's office just waiting for the idiot who went full conversion to come out. Millions of credits in hardware and no real defense against an easily obtainable weapon is the perfect recipe for cyberjacking.

[Nightmask]

I'd feel the GM intentionally screwed me over and never be a player in one of his game's again, since that's obviously a GM screwing with you. Someone just popping up with a weapon that can one-shot kill me in a 'bang you're dead' scenario doesn't happen unless the GM is out to mess with you. Like the player who posted regarding his GM right after he acquired a nice new Naruni weapon pulling off a critical shot in their first fight and in the first round specifically targeting the magazine and ruling it exploded killing everyone. That's not about game balance that's about how fair or how much of an @$$ your GM decides to be.

The problem is, if phase weapons did that to 'Borgs, there would be a guy or guys with them outside of every cyberdoc's office just waiting for the idiot who went full conversion to come out. Millions of credits in hardware and no real defense against an easily obtainable weapon is the perfect recipe for cyberjacking.

Except Phase weapons do do that to borgs, they aren't special. You no more become an MDC being climbing into a suit of power armor or space ship than you do transplanting your brain into a robot. So instead instead of your scenario they're standing outside Power Armor shops and space docks phase beaming everyone because they're still SDC/HP creatures. That partial conversion borg or guy with some add-ons like a bionic arm also gets shafted, since HE is still treated by everyone as flesh and blood and SDC/HP rather than getting to magically become MDC like the brain in a jar.

You're also suggesting scenarios without acknowledging all the reasons that they don't work like that. Phase Weapons aren't that common, they aren't cheap, break it and it doesn't work and you can't get anyone who isn't a Promethien who can fix it, and the Three Galaxies isn't some low-class seedy Burb with scavengers murdering people right and left to chop off their bionics and sell them to some shop. Places where people can become full conversion borgs would have security if such crazy stuff was as common as suggested yet they don't because it isn't for reasons I've already noted.

If you're off on Rifts Earth phase beamers ought to be non-existent or close enough to be considered such. Someone running around hunting borgs with heavy phase beamers if he existed wouldn't last long because he'd have every borg and his friend out to eliminate him. Think those nations that rely on borgs would just let something like that slide? An easy way to kill their heavy troops in a shot or two? Of course not. There are many reasons why this shouldn't be an issue or require a logic-failing declaration that a human brain suddenly becomes MDC when planted in a normal cyborg or robot shell. Like my earlier logical suggestion of an add-on feature of an internal brain-protecting force field that makes it more difficult to kill with a Phase Beamer any borg that spends the money on it (and you know groups like Naruni Repo Bots would have it as a standard feature).

[Colonel Wolfe]

This can be noted on p. 125 of Dimension book Two: Phase World under the listing for Phase-Tech Med Kit.

(Qoute):".....Among other things, the med kit can remove bullets, shrapnel, and other foreign objects embedded in a patient's body by turing them insubstantial; the inorganic objects drop right out and can be picked up and thrown away! Cybernetics and bionic implants are not affected because they are attached to nerurological system of the character so they phase out too...." (end qoute)

so the Bionics connected to the Nervous system aren't considered inorganic.... interesting....

[Galroth]

This can be noted on p. 125 of Dimension book Two: Phase World under the listing for Phase-Tech Med Kit.

(Qoute):".....Among other things, the med kit can remove bullets, shrapnel, and other foreign objects embedded in a patient's body by turing them insubstantial; the inorganic objects drop right out and can be picked up and thrown away! Cybernetics and bionic implants are not affected because they are attached to nerurological system of the character so they phase out too...." (end qoute)

so the Bionics connected to the Nervous system aren't considered inorganic.... interesting....

So it isn't all handwaveium. Nice find.

[Colonel Wolfe]

This can be noted on p. 125 of Dimension book Two: Phase World under the listing for Phase-Tech Med Kit.

(Qoute):".....Among other things, the med kit can remove bullets, shrapnel, and other foreign objects embedded in a patient's body by turing them insubstantial; the inorganic objects drop right out and can be picked up and thrown away! Cybernetics and bionic implants are not affected because they are attached to nerurological system of the character so they phase out too...." (end qoute)

so the Bionics connected to the Nervous system aren't considered inorganic.... interesting....

So it isn't all handwaveium. Nice find.

thank this guy: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=123198#p2375022
he found the quote.

[Nightmask]

So it isn't all handwaveium. Nice find.

thank this guy: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=123198#p2375022
he found the quote.

Of course one could consider that to mean that the borg then becomes effectively an SDC creature with regards to Phase weapons, if you treat it as being linked and somehow alive due to the brain installed. Then again the medkits are designed to not harm the patients, phase beamer weapons are designed for the opposite. So that even though the med-kits phase out the bionics with the organics a phase beamer disrupts the organics and being linked to the cyborg shell really shouldn't give it any more protection.

[Galroth]

So it isn't all handwaveium. Nice find.

thank this guy: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=123198#p2375022
he found the quote.

Of course one could consider that to mean that the borg then becomes effectively an SDC creature with regards to Phase weapons, if you treat it as being linked and somehow alive due to the brain installed. Then again the medkits are designed to not harm the patients, phase beamer weapons are designed for the opposite. So that even though the med-kits phase out the bionics with the organics a phase beamer disrupts the organics and being linked to the cyborg shell really shouldn't give it any more protection.

How many SDC and HP's do you imagine a full conversion borg has after having his skin, muscles, bone and a few of his organs removed surgically? Since they don't have a listed PE anymore they would have at most 1d6 hp's and in my estimation 0 sdc. So if the phase beam ignores the bionics and goes straight to the squishy center, how many shots do you think it takes to kill said borg?

[Nightmask]

Of course one could consider that to mean that the borg then becomes effectively an SDC creature with regards to Phase weapons, if you treat it as being linked and somehow alive due to the brain installed. Then again the medkits are designed to not harm the patients, phase beamer weapons are designed for the opposite. So that even though the med-kits phase out the bionics with the organics a phase beamer disrupts the organics and being linked to the cyborg shell really shouldn't give it any more protection.

How many SDC and HP's do you imagine a full conversion borg has after having his skin, muscles, bone and a few of his organs removed surgically? Since they don't have a listed PE anymore they would have at most 1d6 hp's and in my estimation 0 sdc. So if the phase beam ignores the bionics and goes straight to the squishy center, how many shots do you think it takes to kill said borg?

Not many, in fact probably as many as it takes for a MD laser to kill a normal SDC human being. I don't hear 'Oh no we need to have all humans be MDC because they can be one-shot killed by MD weapons!'. Something that is far more likely to happen than someone taking a phase beamer to a cyborg as that's something that's a very low probability event. It's a vulnerability that's rare, unlikely to be exploited, and a concern that a truly worried cyborg would make sure to include anti-phase weapon tech as part of his design package. Yet I've yet to see anyone even acknowledge the idea of such features, apparently something so practical and logical must be dismissed out of hand to provide support for the far more unrealistic notion that a brain from some pitiful SDC creature suddenly ends up MDC when put in a robot body with some magical point where they become more durable rather than less once they've given up enough organics. That should only happen in cases like with the Anti-Monster which is explicitly a techno-wizard cyborg body that becomes alive and infuses everything with life energy making everything including the original organics MDC.

I shouldn't have to point out that ALL SDC creatures are vulnerable to one-shot kills in an MDC setting like Rifts and Phase World. They're soft and squishy and outside protective armor or force fields die VERY easily. A GM could have your character take a sniper headshot for 2 MDC the moment you stepped out of your brand new armor just as easily as someone could pop off a phase beamer on the cyborg AND the regular MDC weapons are far more common and readily available. Why is this not generally a problem? Because the GM is expected to not be an @$$ pulling stunts like that and knows if he did he'd quickly end up gaming for himself. The same rules that apply when it comes to the SDC sorts out of their MDC protection end up applying with the Cyborg too, namely 'GM thou shalt not be an @$$ if thou expects to remain a GM for anyone besides thyself'. You expect the GM to not one-shot kill your Operator like that and so to you shouldn't have to deal with him doing that to your cyborg.

[Galroth]

Of course one could consider that to mean that the borg then becomes effectively an SDC creature with regards to Phase weapons, if you treat it as being linked and somehow alive due to the brain installed. Then again the medkits are designed to not harm the patients, phase beamer weapons are designed for the opposite. So that even though the med-kits phase out the bionics with the organics a phase beamer disrupts the organics and being linked to the cyborg shell really shouldn't give it any more protection.

How many SDC and HP's do you imagine a full conversion borg has after having his skin, muscles, bone and a few of his organs removed surgically? Since they don't have a listed PE anymore they would have at most 1d6 hp's and in my estimation 0 sdc. So if the phase beam ignores the bionics and goes straight to the squishy center, how many shots do you think it takes to kill said borg?

Not many, in fact probably as many as it takes for a MD laser to kill a normal SDC human being. I don't hear 'Oh no we need to have all humans be MDC because they can be one-shot killed by MD weapons!'. Something that is far more likely to happen than someone taking a phase beamer to a cyborg as that's something that's a very low probability event. It's a vulnerability that's rare, unlikely to be exploited, and a concern that a truly worried cyborg would make sure to include anti-phase weapon tech as part of his design package. Yet I've yet to see anyone even acknowledge the idea of such features, apparently something so practical and logical must be dismissed out of hand to provide support for the far more unrealistic notion that a brain from some pitiful SDC creature suddenly ends up MDC when put in a robot body with some magical point where they become more durable rather than less once they've given up enough organics. That should only happen in cases like with the Anti-Monster which is explicitly a techno-wizard cyborg body that becomes alive and infuses everything with life energy making everything including the original organics MDC.

I shouldn't have to point out that ALL SDC creatures are vulnerable to one-shot kills in an MDC setting like Rifts and Phase World. They're soft and squishy and outside protective armor or force fields die VERY easily. A GM could have your character take a sniper headshot for 2 MDC the moment you stepped out of your brand new armor just as easily as someone could pop off a phase beamer on the cyborg AND the regular MDC weapons are far more common and readily available. Why is this not generally a problem? Because the GM is expected to not be an @$$ pulling stunts like that and knows if he did he'd quickly end up gaming for himself. The same rules that apply when it comes to the SDC sorts out of their MDC protection end up applying with the Cyborg too, namely 'GM thou shalt not be an @$$ if thou expects to remain a GM for anyone besides thyself'. You expect the GM to not one-shot kill your Operator like that and so to you shouldn't have to deal with him doing that to your cyborg.

The brain isn't MDC, but by virtue of being surgically grafted to the bionic body as far as phase tech is concerned they become one thing and phase accordingly. Your argument hinges on whether or not they are separate. Since there is both an explicit ruling on cyborgs versus phase weapons and an implicit reasoning provided in the phase medkit description I don't see why so important to you that cyborgs without a force field should be able to be one-shotted by anyone with 50k credits that's ever been to Phase World. You also seem willing to dismiss the idea that if this worked everyone and their brother (that could afford it: adventurers, merc's, cyber-jackers) would have a hold out phase pistol just for taking down the cyborg.

Also, having to depend on said force field as your only protection has the side effect of lowering the combat effectiveness of every cyborg in the Three Galaxies from being a combat super heavy to that of a fairly average infantry man. Once that force field is gone, max 160 MDC, you are one phase blast from death. Whereas your partner, the Operator with the same super heavy force field still has his SDC and HP's left, which should be more than enough to survive one blast. It might even be enough to run away.

Yes, a GM could sniper said Operator as soon as he tried to take a leak. But if you run phase weapons the way you are talking about, if there is a cyborg in your group you might as well remove them from the game entirely.


Edit: I'd also like to point out the absurdity of this argument about a fictitious technologies effect on another fictitious technology. Both of us should be ashamed.

[Scorpion Leader]

BTW: Things to keep in mind the only place where it says anything about Phase Energy doing damage direct to HIT Points is in Rifts: Dimension Book 12: Dimentional Outbreak on p.11 under the discription for Centers Planetary Defense Phase Cannons.
Now note that damage is only from being in too close of a proximity to the Super Powerful Phase Energies being given off by the Six Power Cables powering the Planetary Defence Phase Cannon.
Even then it does MD damage to MDC beings such as Full Conversion Cyborgs.

I don't know where everyone gets the notion that Phase Beamers Do damage direct to hit points.
You can not read that in any of the other Phase World Books except in that ONE Place and that's for good Reason; Just like in the real world being to close to Nuclear Radiation at a Nuclear power plant without proper or insufficent protection or (posible though smaller degree of chance) of over exposure from electromagnetic raditon from high voltage wires you'll eventually die from radiation exposure.

HOWEVER OTHERWISE NOTE: with the exception of that one example All Damage from Phase Weapons comes OFF of SDC First (for SDC beings that is) and then Hit Points. Just check the discription of every phase weapon including the Planetary Defence Phase Cannons you'll find under Damage that it does SDC or MDC and it DOES NOT SAY for SDC Beings that Damage is Direct to Hit Points.

So they do not do Damage direct to hit points which negates as I've said before both arguements that:
A) That Cyborgs are immune becuase the Damage is direct to Hit Points. Even if a Phase Weapon acted as some would have it that Phase Weapons would destroy the oganic/squishee insides, there is a loophole becuase as the arguement is Borgs do not take damage direct to Hit Points. The thing is that if a Borg had not undergone the procees of becoming a borg SDC would still apply and all damage would come off of the Players SDC first and then their Hit Points. It's not the guy with the Phase Beamers fault that what organic parts remain are considered Hit Point only Vital Organic Parts (or if they have any SDC i'd say the Organic Organ only has 1-2 SDC besides Hit points), as I have to agree that is a real lame and cheap way to get around the damage dealt by the Phase Beamer twisting what is written like that. I know what Kevin wrote there and its for game Balance. But to be strict it Only Says DAMAGE DIRECT TO Hit Points (ie. bypassing SDC). But a phase weapon would do SDC Damage to SDC first before deducting from Hit points if the Organic parts/organs had any. So in affect the arguement for Cyborgs being immune becuase of damage being direct to Hit Points is Null and Void of Any Merit, as the target if not for being a cyborg would still have SDC an the Phase Weapon would deduct from SDC first; as Phase Weapons DO NOT DO strictly speaking Direct To Hit Point Damage (ie. Bypassing SDC if there was any SDC to Apply)

However we now come to point:
B) This also proves you CAN NOT cheap shot a Cyborg with a one Hit Kill to the Organic Parts. 1) RU p. 47 does state that they are to be Considered MDC beings Now. So MD damage only applies!! This is do to the unique man/machine nature of full conversion borgs as I've explained in more detail elsewere in this post. Phase Weapons do MD Damage to MDC beings/creatures. 2) Damage is not direct to hit points it comes off SDC first orinarly. Now I know I just said above its not you fault they don't have any SDC, So damage would come off Hit Points instead and should not be consider a direct attack to Hit Points. But that being said you are also tring to take advantage buy saying damage is direct to Hit Points which it is not , it' would be SDC first then Hit Points if SDC where indeed there to apply. As i'm sure you would want to ignore SDC if there where any. But you can't do that because that is not how Phase Weapons work. 3) SEE Number ONE above; as Cyborgs are ruled as being MDC Beings on p. 47 of RU so damage would be MDC not SDC damage. Also see explanation in my other posts regarding the unique nature of cyborgs especailly in regards to the Phase-Tech Med Kit. Note: Phase beamers PASS THROUGH BODY ARMOR/POWER ARMOR, ETC. ONLY!! The cybernetic and bionic parts are considered as part of the Cyborgs Body as seen as mentioned about Phase-Tech Med Kits. So MD damage only applies and as far as Full Conversion Cyborgs are Concerned. further more Phase Beamers in this case would seem to be doing Damage to a Cyborg more in away ackin to that of what Phase Swords do. 4) For Gosh Sakes Phase Weapons do MD Damage to MDC Creatures/beings and its not like your not going to Mist the Organic Parts anyway once all MDC is Depleted especially from a Head Shot!!

Finally Not even Prometheans are immune to the effects of Phase Weapons ( Not Even Stage Two Prometheans mind you) and you would think they would be, but aren't!!!

[Scorpion Leader]

BTW: Things to keep in mind the only place where it says anything about Phase Energy doing damage direct to HIT Points is in Rifts: Dimension Book 12: Dimentional Outbreak on p.11 under the discription for Centers Planetary Defense Phase Cannons.
Now note that damage is only from being in too close of a proximity to the Super Powerful Phase Energies being given off by the Six Power Cables powering the Planetary Defence Phase Cannon.
Even then it does MD damage to MDC beings such as Full Conversion Cyborgs.

I don't know where everyone gets the notion that Phase Beamers Do damage direct to hit points.
You can not read that in any of the other Phase World Books except in that ONE Place and that's for good Reason; Just like in the real world being to close to Nuclear Radiation at a Nuclear power plant without proper or insufficent protection or (posible though smaller degree of chance) of over exposure from electromagnetic raditon from high voltage wires you'll eventually die from radiation exposure.

HOWEVER OTHERWISE NOTE: with the exception of that one example All Damage from Phase Weapons comes OFF of SDC First (for SDC beings that is) and then Hit Points. Just check the discription of every phase weapon including the Planetary Defence Phase Cannons you'll find under Damage that it does SDC or MDC and it DOES NOT SAY for SDC Beings that Damage is Direct to Hit Points.

So they do not do Damage direct to hit points which negates as I've said before both arguements that:
A) That Cyborgs are immune becuase the Damage is direct to Hit Points. Even if a Phase Weapon acted as some would have it that Phase Weapons would destroy the oganic/squishee insides, there is a loophole becuase as the arguement is Borgs do not take damage direct to Hit Points. The thing is that if a Borg had not undergone the procees of becoming a borg SDC would still apply and all damage would come off of the Players SDC first and then their Hit Points. It's not the guy with the Phase Beamers fault that what organic parts remain are considered Hit Point only Vital Organic Parts (or if they have any SDC i'd say the Organic Organ only has 1-2 SDC besides Hit points), as I have to agree that is a real lame and cheap way to get around the damage dealt by the Phase Beamer twisting what is written like that. I know what Kevin wrote there and its for game Balance. But to be strict it Only Says DAMAGE DIRECT TO Hit Points (ie. bypassing SDC). But a phase weapon would do SDC Damage to SDC first before deducting from Hit points if the Organic parts/organs had any. So in affect the arguement for Cyborgs being immune becuase of damage being direct to Hit Points is Null and Void of Any Merit, as the target if not for being a cyborg would still have SDC an the Phase Weapon would deduct from SDC first; as Phase Weapons DO NOT DO strictly speaking Direct To Hit Point Damage (ie. Bypassing SDC if there was any SDC to Apply)

However we now come to point:
B) This also proves you CAN NOT cheap shot a Cyborg with a one Hit Kill to the Organic Parts. 1) RU p. 47 does state that they are to be Considered MDC beings Now. So MD damage only applies!! This is do to the unique man/machine nature of full conversion borgs as I've explained in more detail elsewere in this post. Phase Weapons do MD Damage to MDC beings/creatures. 2) Damage is not direct to hit points it comes off SDC first orinarly. Now I know I just said above its not you fault they don't have any SDC, So damage would come off Hit Points instead and should not be consider a direct attack to Hit Points. But that being said you are also tring to take advantage buy saying damage is direct to Hit Points which it is not , it' would be SDC first then Hit Points if SDC where indeed there to apply. As i'm sure you would want to ignore SDC if there where any. But you can't do that because that is not how Phase Weapons work. 3) SEE Number ONE above; as Cyborgs are ruled as being MDC Beings on p. 47 of RU so damage would be MDC not SDC damage. Also see explanation in my other posts regarding the unique nature of cyborgs especailly in regards to the Phase-Tech Med Kit. Note: Phase beamers PASS THROUGH BODY ARMOR/POWER ARMOR, ETC. ONLY!! The cybernetic and bionic parts are considered as part of the Cyborgs Body as seen as mentioned about Phase-Tech Med Kits. So MD damage only applies and as far as Full Conversion Cyborgs are Concerned. further more Phase Beamers in this case would seem to be doing Damage to a Cyborg more in away ackin to that of what Phase Swords do. 4) For Gosh Sakes Phase Weapons do MD Damage to MDC Creatures/beings and its not like your not going to Mist the Organic Parts anyway once all MDC is Depleted especially from a Head Shot!!

Finally Not even Prometheans are immune to the effects of Phase Weapons ( Not Even Stage Two Prometheans mind you) and you would think they would be, but aren't!!!

Oh I Forgot to say; Yes I know I aruge most of all that before already. But it needed restating anyway!!

[Scorpion Leader]

BTW: Things to keep in mind the only place where it says anything about Phase Energy doing damage direct to HIT Points is in Rifts: Dimension Book 12: Dimentional Outbreak on p.11 under the discription for Centers Planetary Defense Phase Cannons.
Now note that damage is only from being in too close of a proximity to the Super Powerful Phase Energies being given off by the Six Power Cables powering the Planetary Defence Phase Cannon.
Even then it does MD damage to MDC beings such as Full Conversion Cyborgs.

I don't know where everyone gets the notion that Phase Beamers Do damage direct to hit points.
You can not read that in any of the other Phase World Books except in that ONE Place and that's for good Reason; Just like in the real world being to close to Nuclear Radiation at a Nuclear power plant without proper or insufficent protection or (posible though smaller degree of chance) of over exposure from electromagnetic raditon from high voltage wires you'll eventually die from radiation exposure.

HOWEVER OTHERWISE NOTE: with the exception of that one example All Damage from Phase Weapons comes OFF of SDC First (for SDC beings that is) and then Hit Points. Just check the discription of every phase weapon including the Planetary Defence Phase Cannons you'll find under Damage that it does SDC or MDC and it DOES NOT SAY for SDC Beings that Damage is Direct to Hit Points.

So they do not do Damage direct to hit points which negates as I've said before both arguements that:
A) That Cyborgs are immune becuase the Damage is direct to Hit Points. Even if a Phase Weapon acted as some would have it that Phase Weapons would destroy the oganic/squishee insides, there is a loophole becuase as the arguement is Borgs do not take damage direct to Hit Points. The thing is that if a Borg had not undergone the procees of becoming a borg SDC would still apply and all damage would come off of the Players SDC first and then their Hit Points. It's not the guy with the Phase Beamers fault that what organic parts remain are considered Hit Point only Vital Organic Parts (or if they have any SDC i'd say the Organic Organ only has 1-2 SDC besides Hit points), as I have to agree that is a real lame and cheap way to get around the damage dealt by the Phase Beamer twisting what is written like that. I know what Kevin wrote there and its for game Balance. But to be strict it Only Says DAMAGE DIRECT TO Hit Points (ie. bypassing SDC). But a phase weapon would do SDC Damage to SDC first before deducting from Hit points if the Organic parts/organs had any. So in affect the arguement for Cyborgs being immune becuase of damage being direct to Hit Points is Null and Void of Any Merit, as the target if not for being a cyborg would still have SDC an the Phase Weapon would deduct from SDC first; as Phase Weapons DO NOT DO strictly speaking Direct To Hit Point Damage (ie. Bypassing SDC if there was any SDC to Apply)

However we now come to point:
B) This also proves you CAN NOT cheap shot a Cyborg with a one Hit Kill to the Organic Parts. 1) RU p. 47 does state that they are to be Considered MDC beings Now. So MD damage only applies!! This is do to the unique man/machine nature of full conversion borgs as I've explained in more detail elsewere in this post. Phase Weapons do MD Damage to MDC beings/creatures. 2) Damage is not direct to hit points it comes off SDC first orinarly. Now I know I just said above its not you fault they don't have any SDC, So damage would come off Hit Points instead and should not be consider a direct attack to Hit Points. But that being said you are also tring to take advantage buy saying damage is direct to Hit Points which it is not , it' would be SDC first then Hit Points if SDC where indeed there to apply. As i'm sure you would want to ignore SDC if there where any. But you can't do that because that is not how Phase Weapons work. 3) SEE Number ONE above; as Cyborgs are ruled as being MDC Beings on p. 47 of RU so damage would be MDC not SDC damage. Also see explanation in my other posts regarding the unique nature of cyborgs especailly in regards to the Phase-Tech Med Kit. Note: Phase beamers PASS THROUGH BODY ARMOR/POWER ARMOR, ETC. ONLY!! The cybernetic and bionic parts are considered as part of the Cyborgs Body as seen as mentioned about Phase-Tech Med Kits. So MD damage only applies and as far as Full Conversion Cyborgs are Concerned. further more Phase Beamers in this case would seem to be doing Damage to a Cyborg more in away ackin to that of what Phase Swords do. 4) For Gosh Sakes Phase Weapons do MD Damage to MDC Creatures/beings and its not like your not going to Mist the Organic Parts anyway once all MDC is Depleted especially from a Head Shot!!

Finally Not even Prometheans are immune to the effects of Phase Weapons ( Not Even Stage Two Prometheans mind you) and you would think they would be, but aren't!!!

Oh I Forgot to say; Yes I know I aruge most of all that before already. But it needed restating anyway!!

One more thing I forgot to mention that under A) above is the other problem with the arguement of Cyborg's being immune to Phase Weapons solely on the fact that p. 47 of RU states they don't take damage from attacks direct to Hit Points; that is It could be ruled cyborgs are immune to any and all attacks from spells, psionics, or weapons that do damage direct to "Hit Points" even from MD weapons!! In essence Cyborgs cannot be harmed or killed. The Reason as stated in an earlier post above in a reply to Nekira Sundance's post; if one is to "Follow" the Rule on p. 47 and the Rules Regarding MDC & MDC Beings/Creatures to the extreme letter of the law, The MDC of MDC Beings is counted as is equated/equalvilant/equal to HIT POINTS (of that of a Normal SDC/Hit Point Being) for such beings or creatures. That being the case then NO ATTACK COULD HARM A CYBORG (Not Even MD Damage) as Attacks Direct to Hit Points to a Cyborg are NOT Allowed. So therefore NO Attack could harm them SDC/MDC or otherwise. This of course would be absurd, but is a pluasible loophole in how p. 47 and the Rules are currently written.

Now For those of you who are Rules Lawers Like are Friend Nekira Sundance; I refer you all to go check out what is Written about The Seven Deadly Sins of Gaming, especially what it says on p. 320 regarding SLOTH: BLIND OBEDIENCE in Rifts Game Masters Guide.

Excerpt Qoute: "Like it or not the G.M. is an authority figure . He is the offical purveyor of the rules of the game,.......This is not always an easy role to fulfill. Every G.M. will eventually run into a "rules lawyer", that particular brand of player who 1) insists that the only rules that count are those printed in the rule book (hmmmm....sound familar et'al) and 2) probably knows the rules better than you do and 3) has a nasty habit of bending and mangling the rules to his own ends. (hmmm....again sound familar anyone. et'al) Or, he will run into a situation where in which the rules contradict themselves (hmmm....sound familar yet again!! et'al). Or, he wil rule something one way and then issue a contradictory ruling on something else. These are the many pit falls of being the rules master, but if you are the G.M., you must find away of dealing with it.....But if you don't do it, if you just let everything slide with no sense of consistency or plausability, you are basically abdicating your position as the games authority figure. It means letting the rules lawyer rampage all over the game and tell you how to run it. It means not making a ruling of any kind because the rules themselves contradict eac other. It means going back and rewriting the course of an adventure to correct an error that should of been left well enough alone. It means,in essence, letting the game self-destruct.

The first and best thing to remember when dealing with the rules of any RPG is this: ALL RULES ARE OPTIONAL. This is important, so it bears repeating. ALL RULES ARE OPTIONAL. RPGs have rules to provide the players and the G.M. with a guideline for how to run things. But no set of rules can cover every possible thing that can happen in an RPG. That is why the G.M. is expected to take the rules and use them as a set of offical guidelines as he takes the matter of ruling the game into his own hands. Invariably, every G.M. and gaming group finds rules they don't like or rules they wish were there but aren't. It is perfectly okay to tweak existing rules to better enable the kind of playing you want. Likewise, it is fine to add whatever rules you feel are necessary for evberybody to enjoy themselves. This is a time-honored part of role-playing, and it will probably be like this for as long as RPGs exist.

Now, when changing the rules of the game, it is best to do it with the players' knowledge.........Giving players fair warning (i.e., before the start of the gaming session) that you are making a rules change is a good course of action. An even better one is getting the players' input on an impending rules change. This should help insure that when you, as G.M. make the final decision, it is the one everyone can live with." end qoute.

This goes along with my previous post and proves that as I said before coming in here with prejudgments and Rules Lawyering for that matter check all that at the door and free your minds up to what a poster has to say based on its merits especially when it is based upon the rules, like I've been trying to do, to help us all to come to a FAIR SOLUTION FOR ALL on the matter that has been discused in this post and another previous to this one.

This is my absolute Final stance on this matter, because I feel nothing more needs to be said as based on what is writen on p. 320 of the Rifts Game Masters Guide, that you all just read excerpts from above. If this does not settle the matter, then I'm afraid that nothing will ever be satifactory for you in this matter or another; not even if it were Kevin Seimbieda himself was writing this.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Here is he easy way to work this out.

Phase Beamers by pass the armor, doing damage to what living matter it hits.
i.e.: if a FCB (brain in a shell) a head shot=death, otherwise the borg be immune.
i.e.: Partial con. borg (anything less then 'brain in a shell') does damage to any living parts hit.

[Scorpion Leader]

Here is he easy way to work this out.

Phase Beamers by pass the armor, doing damage to what living matter it hits.
i.e.: if a FCB (brain in a shell) a head shot=death, otherwise the borg be immune.
i.e.: Partial con. borg (anything less then 'brain in a shell') does damage to any living parts hit.

That would be fine if not for what is written on p. 47 of RU. , so the head shot is out. You can argue otherwise like everyone else has already, but I've given all the reasons already on how to FAIRLY HANDLE this for everyone on both sides of this issue (SEE ALL MY Previous Posts) and the only fair way is to treat FULL Conversion borgs as MDC Beings/Creatures and damage is from the Phase Weapons MD abilities doing Damage to MDC this is to keep game balance and give a Full Conversion Borg a chance. Just as cyborgs are not immune to Phase Weapons is a wash for several reasons, SO is the theory to be able to instantly kill them with a head shot with a phase weapon is also a wash for several reasons, as I have already posted. Also as I have written above becareful of rules Lawyering as it seems that is what most everyone who has replied to this post and the original one before all seem to be tring to do. SEE Points 1,2,3 in the above post about this. Some of you might try to accuse me of being a rules lawyer as well, however if you read my posts carefully you'll see I am NOT. I looked at and analyzied both sides of the issue ( I gave support too and against each side) especially where it comes to the Rules/Guidelines given in the Source Material and made the best and fairest judgement that I could make on the subject.

[Scorpion Leader]

Here is he easy way to work this out.

Phase Beamers by pass the armor, doing damage to what living matter it hits.
i.e.: if a FCB (brain in a shell) a head shot=death, otherwise the borg be immune.
i.e.: Partial con. borg (anything less then 'brain in a shell') does damage to any living parts hit.

That would be fine if not for what is written on p. 47 of RU. , so the head shot is out. You can argue otherwise like everyone else has already, but I've given all the reasons already on how to FAIRLY HANDLE this for everyone on both sides of this issue (SEE ALL MY Previous Posts) and the only fair way is to treat FULL Conversion borgs as MDC Beings/Creatures and damage is from the Phase Weapons MD abilities doing Damage to MDC this is to keep game balance and give a Full Conversion Borg a chance. Just as cyborgs are not immune to Phase Weapons is a wash for several reasons, SO is the theory to be able to instantly kill them with a head shot with a phase weapon is also a wash for several reasons, as I have already posted. Also as I have written above becareful of rules Lawyering as it seems that is what most everyone who has replied to this post and the original one before all seem to be tring to do. SEE Points 1,2,3 in the above post about this. Some of you might try to accuse me of being a rules lawyer as well, however if you read my posts carefully you'll see I am NOT. I looked at and analyzied both sides of the issue ( I gave support too and against each side) especially where it comes to the Rules/Guidelines given in the Source Material and made the best and fairest judgement that I could make on the subject.

Now let me just say one thing in favor of the Head Shot Crowd, and the Cyborgs are Immune Crowd SHOULD TAKE NOTICE, as this is based on the Rules and neither side can deny or dispute this rule. The only way a Head Shot with a Phase Weapon/Beamer is going to work is at Point Blank Range. SEE Rules in RU & G.M.'s Guide regarding the rules for Point Blank Shots to the Head or Heart. No matter how much SDC/HP or MDC one has or left; if hit by a point blank shot to the Head or Heart your DEAD PERIOD!! The RU p. 47 Attacks Direct to Hit Points Rule for Full Conversion Borgs No Longer Applies in this case!! However first you A) Must blast away any protection that applies and B) Even get close enough to the Cyborg to attempt a Point Blank Shot!! Also note: as Kevin Seimbeida has ruled on p.47 of RU that Cyborgs are considered as MDC Beings/Creatures then the MD damage from a Phase Weapon/Beamer applies not SDC Damage, but this is of no matter of consequence as the Rules state regarding Point Blank Shots/Attacks to the Head or Heart; that as long as points A&B above have been delt with/satisfied then No Matter how much MDC (or SDC/HP for normal SDC beings) is remaining this is a Critical Hit and You are Dead or at least in a Coma if the G.M. is generous!! So the body armor helmet/head protection would be bypassed in the case of a Phase Weapon/Beamer and you are now shooting the Borgs MDC Head at Point Blank Range; No matter how much MDC it has or is left the attack kills the Borg. Also lastly as I've stated in my Previous posts above, for Shots with a Phase Beamer to the Head, Heart, or other part of the Body Normal MDC ranged weapon combat rules apply and Damage is MD (NOT SDC) to the MDC of the Full Conversion Borg.

-Nuff Said

[drewkitty ~..~]

Easy and Fairly are two different things, and I did list my posting "an easy way." In this case easy would be closer to real world then the rules in RUE (which I do not use as canon in my games, even if I do import the bits and pieces that do make the game better.)

Also there is no fair in real life, there is what "Is" and what "Isn't". So that throws fair out the window.
BTW fair is how ppl think the world should work, not the way it is. example from the movie 'Contact': how David Drumlin won out in the initial selection process over Dr. Eleanor Arroway. And just before he is killed in the movie he admits it to Ellie.

Also I was not saying that the borgs could not have some sort of force field about them (or just their heads) (just) to block phase beams.

Then there is the part that looks like the head of the borg is not always where the brain case is located. (it is the most horrible place to locate the brain, the head, if it is a CFB.)

If it a PCB then they have SDC and HP listed as a Part of the char.

[Scorpion Leader]

Here is he easy way to work this out.

Phase Beamers by pass the armor, doing damage to what living matter it hits.
i.e.: if a FCB (brain in a shell) a head shot=death, otherwise the borg be immune.
i.e.: Partial con. borg (anything less then 'brain in a shell') does damage to any living parts hit.

That would be fine if not for what is written on p. 47 of RU. , so the head shot is out. You can argue otherwise like everyone else has already, but I've given all the reasons already on how to FAIRLY HANDLE this for everyone on both sides of this issue (SEE ALL MY Previous Posts) and the only fair way is to treat FULL Conversion borgs as MDC Beings/Creatures and damage is from the Phase Weapons MD abilities doing Damage to MDC this is to keep game balance and give a Full Conversion Borg a chance. Just as cyborgs are not immune to Phase Weapons is a wash for several reasons, SO is the theory to be able to instantly kill them with a head shot with a phase weapon is also a wash for several reasons, as I have already posted. Also as I have written above becareful of rules Lawyering as it seems that is what most everyone who has replied to this post and the original one before all seem to be tring to do. SEE Points 1,2,3 in the above post about this. Some of you might try to accuse me of being a rules lawyer as well, however if you read my posts carefully you'll see I am NOT. I looked at and analyzied both sides of the issue ( I gave support too and against each side) especially where it comes to the Rules/Guidelines given in the Source Material and made the best and fairest judgement that I could make on the subject.

Now let me just say one thing in favor of the Head Shot Crowd, and the Cyborgs are Immune Crowd SHOULD TAKE NOTICE, as this is based on the Rules and neither side can deny or dispute this rule. The only way a Head Shot with a Phase Weapon/Beamer is going to work is at Point Blank Range. SEE Rules in RU & G.M.'s Guide regarding the rules for Point Blank Shots to the Head or Heart. No matter how much SDC/HP or MDC one has or left; if hit by a point blank shot to the Head or Heart your DEAD PERIOD!! The RU p. 47 Attacks Direct to Hit Points Rule for Full Conversion Borgs No Longer Applies in this case!! However first you A) Must blast away any protection that applies and B) Even get close enough to the Cyborg to attempt a Point Blank Shot!! Also note: as Kevin Seimbeida has ruled on p.47 of RU that Cyborgs are considered as MDC Beings/Creatures then the MD damage from a Phase Weapon/Beamer applies not SDC Damage, but this is of no matter of consequence as the Rules state regarding Point Blank Shots/Attacks to the Head or Heart; that as long as points A&B above have been delt with/satisfied then No Matter how much MDC (or SDC/HP for normal SDC beings) is remaining this is a Critical Hit and You are Dead or at least in a Coma if the G.M. is generous!! So the body armor helmet/head protection would be bypassed in the case of a Phase Weapon/Beamer and you are now shooting the Borgs MDC Head at Point Blank Range; No matter how much MDC it has or is left the attack kills the Borg. Also lastly as I've stated in my Previous posts above, for Shots with a Phase Beamer to the Head, Heart, or other part of the Body Normal MDC ranged weapon combat rules apply and Damage is MD (NOT SDC) to the MDC of the Full Conversion Borg.

-Nuff Said

Okay I must Apologize as I need to make a couple of corrections to my above Post.

1) First the rules regarding Point-Blank attacks to the Head or Heart can ONLY be found on p. 37 of the Rifts: Game Masters Guide.
I thought Palladium had re-printed the Rules in RU but they did not. So if you want to see and use those Rules you need the GM's Guide.

2) I aplogize as I mixed up the Rule regarding Explosives with the Point-Blank Attack to Head or Heart Rules as the former is where you will find what I was quoting above as far as Damage is concerned. However this does not neglect Really what I said and I would still go ahead and use the Standard Point-Blank Attack to Head or Heart Rules Table as it is written; But I offer and would keep in Mind this Excerpt from those Rules: from the bottom of p. 37 left hand side of the page of the Rifts: Game Masters Guide (Qoute): "NOTE: Depending on the situation, the victim of a point-blank attack may be automaticlly killed too. But this is left up to the Game Master's discretion. The general rules presented here are to be applied in non-lethal situations. Likewise, simlar effects can be implemented for Mega-Damage inflicted to M.D. creatures, such as the dragon, when exposed to massive point-blank damage to the head, G.M.'s option." (end qoute)

Also Regarding Explosive you can read this on the bottom right hand side of p. 37 of the G.M.'s Guide: (Qoute) " Note: the same basic concept applies to M.D. explosives and M.D.C. creatures and structures" (end qoute) This is in regards to a point-blank encounter with explosives (ie. jumping on top of a grenade to save your buddy) and the damage done, which I presented a part of those rules above in my last post mistakenly however for the rules for point-blank attacks to the head or heart.

Lastly I'd like to present these Words of Wisdom from Kevin Siembieda himself as presented on p. 357-358 of Rifts: Ultimate Edition (RU) I Qoute these excerpts: p. 357 "Game Masters, be cool. Don't kill a character with a cheap shot from a hidden assailiant brandishing an M.D. blaster or rifle from across the street."....."Make it a fair fight (with in the context of the game) as possible."......
from p.358 I qoute: "Game Masters, you are the ones who have the burden of maintaining game balance, responding reasonably to the player characters' antics and keeping the action moving and fun. This isn't as difficult as it may seem once you get the hang of role-playing. Just try to imagine all your options, pick the ones that seem to make the most sense or offer the best options, and go with the flow. -Kevin Siembieda" (end qoute)

Now as you can see I've done my best to do those very things Kevin has mentioned with my interpretation of the rules, and how to handle a Full Conversion Borg vs. Phase Weapons/Beamers.

Of course there is now a new Monkey Wrench as Phase Beamers are No Longer the only weapons that do SDC Damage to SDC beings and MD damage to MDC beings. The Gravity Wave Weapons of the Dominators as presented on p. 27-28 of Rifts: Dimension Book Twelve: Thundercloud Galaxy does damage this way as well. However I'd use the same General Rulings that I've presented here for Phase Weapons vs. Full Conversion Cyborgs to apply to Gravity Wave Weapons as well.

[drewkitty ~..~]

If there is nothing changing the rule found in the RGMG, then it still applies.

[Scorpion Leader]

If there is nothing changing the rule found in the RGMG, then it still applies.

Yes that is correct, if you are reffering to everything I mentioned above from the Gm's guide. As far as I can tell there is Not, not even in RU. Hence we finally agree.

Of course then again I would not be suprised if someone tried to use RU p. 47 again to say otherwise. But i've debunked that notion of immunity based on that rule already as:

A) If we follow as it says Cyborgs are now considered MDC beings, Phase Weapons do MD damage anyway (and I said should be delt with in this manner previously).

B) As I stated before if you took that rule on p. 47 of RU to the extreme, it could be ruled Full Conversion Borgs are immune to any and all damage no matter the source (ie. weapon in this case SDC or MD) becuase they are immune to all attacks direct to "Hit Points" and given that the MDC of MDC beings/creatures as per the rules is their equivallant to "Hit Points" for them, and No attacks direct to hit points are allowed, thus granting them immunity to everything. This as I've said would be absurd and not possible, even though that loophole does exist.

C) Phase Weapons do not under usual circumstances do Damage Direct to Hit Points as both sides of the issue like to claim and use as a basis for their arguement(s).

D) How Phase-Tech Med Kits work (SEE: previous posting) and their Man/Machine which means they should be considered as MD beings. But seeing Phase weapons work in the reverse of the PHASE-TEC MED KIT, this is to also say they can only be damaged by the MD attack aspect of a Phase Weapon/Beamer. see p.125 of Rifts: Dimension Book Two: Phase World for the details on Phase-Tech Med Kits and how Cybernetic or Bionic implants react when a Phase Feild is used Medicaly.

E) All of the other Offical Rules and advice I have stated and given from the rules and qouted, and that written by either Kevin Siembieda himself or from/written by Bill Coffin.

F) BTW: The Rules regarding Point-Blank Attacks to the Head or Heart were written by Kevin Siembieda himself and as I came to recently re-discover first appeared in the original Rifts: Conversion Book (my copy is from the Third Printing BTW) on p. 17-18 of the that same book (besides p. 37 of the GM's guide) of which Kevin is listed as the sole author of said book.

G) Even Kevin has been know to over look something and later change it. Also see again the GM's Guide as well, about Rules Lawyering and Solth: Blind Obedience to the rules (p.320 and posted previously in an above post as well as my above post from the pages of the RU in Kevins own words on p. 357-358 of RU). The Rules are just really a set of guidelines and not to be used in a be all end all type of manner (not even what Kevin said in another forum, even he'll tell you that. All he has stated in RU p. 47 and in the other forum is why he changed Full Conversion Borgs to being strictlly considered as MDC beings and that was for game ballance to give the cyborg a chance. I happen to agree with that and Stated Phase Weapons do their MD damage to borgs. However what he said and whats writen on p.47 of RU do not negate the Point-Blank Attack to Head or Heart Rule which is a rule he also wrote). As I've said earlier almost everyone has been taking this issue way out of context and our therefore guily of point #3 under Solth: Blind Obedience on p.320 of the GM's guide and that is havin a nasty habit of bending and mangling the rules to their own ends. Once again i've presented a solution to the problem based on the rules/guidlines given toward the best and fairest possible out come based on them.

[Nightmask]

The brain isn't MDC, but by virtue of being surgically grafted to the bionic body as far as phase tech is concerned they become one thing and phase accordingly. Your argument hinges on whether or not they are separate. Since there is both an explicit ruling on cyborgs versus phase weapons and an implicit reasoning provided in the phase medkit description I don't see why so important to you that cyborgs without a force field should be able to be one-shotted by anyone with 50k credits that's ever been to Phase World. You also seem willing to dismiss the idea that if this worked everyone and their brother (that could afford it: adventurers, merc's, cyber-jackers) would have a hold out phase pistol just for taking down the cyborg.

Please, don't go misrepresenting my intent by ascribing to me some feeling of it being important that they be able to one-shot kill with phase weapons when that's simply not the case. My position is based purely on the nature of Phase Weapons and how they're said to do damage and nothing more. Medical phase tech is understandably programmed to detect when living tissue is connected to electronics so it doesn't harm things by phasing things improperly, that's just common sense. You don't make a medical device like that and not take such things into account. Meanwhile a Phase Beamer weapon is designed to KILL, not save, it's not going to be built to care about anything but killing tissue and that connection to a cyborg shell doesn't mean anything to it. Your SDC/HP no more become MDC when you've got a Cyborg arm and eye than your brain should when there's nothing left but your brain.

In regards to 'everyone and his brother having them', that's pure exaggeration. Cyborgs aren't that common compared to the many other MDC creatures around and people running around in power armor or having Naruni Force Fields so it's just over-inflating the ubiquitous nature of Phase Weapons to claim that everyone would be going around getting them to go borg-hunting. As I've already noted they could go hunting for people in power armor too since you could still do more damage to the pilot with a phase weapon than trying to burn through his MDC armor and you get to capture the armor for yourself in return yet I see zero concern with someone running around doing just that so really it's just a whole lot of handwaving of the actual realities of things.

Also, having to depend on said force field as your only protection has the side effect of lowering the combat effectiveness of every cyborg in the Three Galaxies from being a combat super heavy to that of a fairly average infantry man. Once that force field is gone, max 160 MDC, you are one phase blast from death. Whereas your partner, the Operator with the same super heavy force field still has his SDC and HP's left, which should be more than enough to survive one blast. It might even be enough to run away.

Clearly you've been ignoring quite a bit of what I've said or misreading it badly, given we're talking an internal force field to shield the organics, one built to provide protection against phase weapons only providing depending on expense more protection by far than the standard full FF. You're also misrepresenting things acting as if 'Oh no now the borg's just like a lower MDC guy going this route! How horrible there be a situation where he's not always a combat monster and has to feel vulnerable like everyone else!'. Phase weapons aren't that common! No cyborg character, whether PC or NPC should have everyone he's coming up against have phase weapons. That's just not logical, rational, or believable. The borg is still going to be a heavy combat machine in general, and anyone who was attacking him with phase weapons isn't going to have him standing around giving them every opportunity to shoot him he's going to be attacking back. Even 160 MDC of protection is enormous when you've got said heavy borg shooting back at you.

Oh, and as far as the Operator goes, if all he's got his the 160 MDC force field the guy pot-shotting him with that 4d6MD rail gun is going to have him DEAD the moment that field goes down, which you know would be the same then as that Borg provided the phase beamers were able to make the called shot for the general brain area can actually hit it mind you.

Yes, a GM could sniper said Operator as soon as he tried to take a leak. But if you run phase weapons the way you are talking about, if there is a cyborg in your group you might as well remove them from the game entirely.

Man that's such a ridiculous exaggeration. You've inflated things to the point that everyone's got a phase weapon for no other reason than to try and claim the borg has to be special with special rules so he doesn't feel weak like everyone else. Again phase weapons aren't that common, and a cyborg shouldn't be encountering them anywhere near as much as you exaggerate it to be. That operator can be just as easily phase-beam snipered IN HIS POWER ARMOR as the borg can, and unlike the borg no one's arguing that the poor Operator should have anything special to protect him from that. The guy in the power armor or in his vehicle might as well be standing around naked as far as the phase beamer is concerned, a Glitter Boy pilot could be wiped out easy with phase beamers while his 770 MDC from his armor does nothing but glitter nicely in the sunlight while he's being killed inside it. So where's the 'oh no that power Glitter Boy Pilot, we have to be fair and make it that the phase beamer has to destroy the armor first'. Sorry but not everything's fair, everything's got vulnerabilities including the Cyborg. You're just going munchkin trying to remove all their vulnerabilities while ensuring everyone else keeps theirs.

[Scorpion Leader]

This can be noted on p. 125 of Dimension book Two: Phase World under the listing for Phase-Tech Med Kit.

(Qoute):".....Among other things, the med kit can remove bullets, shrapnel, and other foreign objects embedded in a patient's body by turing them insubstantial; the inorganic objects drop right out and can be picked up and thrown away! Cybernetics and bionic implants are not affected because they are attached to nerurological system of the character so they phase out too...." (end qoute)

so the Bionics connected to the Nervous system aren't considered inorganic.... interesting....

Correct.

[Scorpion Leader]

This can be noted on p. 125 of Dimension book Two: Phase World under the listing for Phase-Tech Med Kit.

(Qoute):".....Among other things, the med kit can remove bullets, shrapnel, and other foreign objects embedded in a patient's body by turing them insubstantial; the inorganic objects drop right out and can be picked up and thrown away! Cybernetics and bionic implants are not affected because they are attached to nerurological system of the character so they phase out too...." (end qoute)

so the Bionics connected to the Nervous system aren't considered inorganic.... interesting....

So it isn't all handwaveium. Nice find.

That is correct my friend, it is not all handwaveium. Also thanks for the complement.

[Scorpion Leader]

This can be noted on p. 125 of Dimension book Two: Phase World under the listing for Phase-Tech Med Kit.

(Qoute):".....Among other things, the med kit can remove bullets, shrapnel, and other foreign objects embedded in a patient's body by turing them insubstantial; the inorganic objects drop right out and can be picked up and thrown away! Cybernetics and bionic implants are not affected because they are attached to nerurological system of the character so they phase out too...." (end qoute)

so the Bionics connected to the Nervous system aren't considered inorganic.... interesting....

So it isn't all handwaveium. Nice find.

thank this guy: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=123198#p2375022
he found the quote.

Thank You.