The Invasion of Center - Big deal or not?

[Carl Gleba]

From this thread: Subject: can a shifter get demon dealings advice from Carl Gleba

Not to hijack the thread Gebla, but how can Phase World being invaded be a minor thing in the background when the setting itself is called phase world and the whole line revolves around it? Unless you don't use PW itself at all in the game it's kind of a big deal.

I subscribe to the theory that when I am the GM it is my game. I use the elements from the books I like and ignore the rest. If you don't like the MW in your PW game then the invasion of Center is but a minor thing or just doesn't happen. The way you post its like you have no choice but to use the minion war in your game and I say you do. That is the reason why I tried very hard to give more world details in each book so you have something to use other than the MW. There should be enough tools "ideas" in each book to allow you to tell your stories. If your stories do not include the MW then don't use it. To me its that easy? Why wouldn't it be?

[DBX]

blurb highlighted by me

in my games PW gettin invaded is no big deal coz i usualy run stuff on rifts earth & nobodys even HEARD of phase world.

but for canon stuff, PW gettin invaded woud be the most humungous deal since earth went all rifty.

agree. In official canon this is a very big deal IMO. I think it will be the same in relation to Rifts Earth when Megaverse in Flames book comes out. I think depending on how they go about it officially, that book could lay the groundwork for the next dozen or so rifts books

[Nekira Sudacne]

From this thread: Subject: can a shifter get demon dealings advice from Carl Gleba

Not to hijack the thread Gebla, but how can Phase World being invaded be a minor thing in the background when the setting itself is called phase world and the whole line revolves around it? Unless you don't use PW itself at all in the game it's kind of a big deal.

I subscribe to the theory that when I am the GM it is my game. I use the elements from the books I like and ignore the rest. If you don't like the MW in your PW game then the invasion of Center is but a minor thing or just doesn't happen. The way you post its like you have no choice but to use the minion war in your game and I say you do. That is the reason why I tried very hard to give more world details in each book so you have something to use other than the MW. There should be enough tools "ideas" in each book to allow you to tell your stories. If your stories do not include the MW then don't use it. To me its that easy? Why wouldn't it be?

I guess the thing that gets me is: it's not that this was printed as some kind of Adventure book or moduel, wherein the material is optional, it's cannon.

I like using cannon, as much of it as I can. Of course I don't have to use it, but when you make something huge and disruptive like this cannon, your basically forcing me to either A. Ignore it, or B. Radically shift everything I was doing. Essentially, you made it metaplot instead of optional, which is more difficult to ignore.

Secondary issue, and one more personal to me:

You can say I don't have to run phase world with it. Fine. that's true. but if I want to play phase world at some point, and I do, I have to find a GM who also dosn't like minion war.

Essentially, every game i've tried to join, is using the material that I hate. If this was an adventure model, it would be less used. I think you need to understand, some GM's feel all but compelled to use offical material. They don't have to, but they do. You might not understand it, but it's a fairly pervalient mindset. These are good GM's, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Essentially, Carl, you've taken every game I was interested in joining and made them unplayable for me. Not because I can't choose not to use it, but because a lot of people are choosing not to. It's virtually impossible for me to find a game in the setting I love, and I can't pretend i'm not bitter about it, especially sinse not making it metaplot would have not caused this problem.

[Carl Gleba]

Nekira I can respect that the Minion War is not your thing. I feel bad that its ruining your gaming experience. I can't really say much except to relay a "somewhat" similar experience.

In the past I've had GM's run games that I know I would not be interested in. Dead Reign is a good example. The whole zombie thing just doesn't interest me. All I pictured was a game where I would wrack up a body count of zombies. No real story or plot, I mean geeze, how fun is it to just kill a bunch of mindless zombies? Where is the story in that? I want some intelligent foes to challenge me. Fortunately I had a really good GM who ran a great Dead Reign game. I didn't see the story potential that could be told. I'm glad I was wrong and ended up having a character i really liked and the game was very enjoyable. I'm not saying give the Minion War a try, just give the GM a chance. Maybe they can put a twist on it that appeals to you?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Well that's the thing. It's not that I don't see the potential stories in minion war. It's got truckloads of very good stories.

The problem is that the game I WANT to play is the simple Phase World Game, where Phase World is the center of the Three Galaxies, magestic and all but untouchable. It's a great story, and it's one i've yet to actually have a chance to play.

Now the line has moved on from that, making it unlikely I ever will get a chance to play.

Also: I just have to gripe: I can't beleive one turncoat Promethian could compromise Centers security so thoughly. I just can't. They're too advanced to be that stupid. I can think of AI schemes to make what happened completely impossible at much lower technology levels.

[Kovoston]

There can be many reasons why the invasion of PW was successful. Cause and effect is one of the aspects of my game. And yeah, maybe one person was the catalyst to the destruction. The point is that there were so many other things going on behind the scenes. Any great civilization no matter how powerful can become complacent and let a few cracks in the armor allow the enemy in!
Besides, the book never really says that the invaders win, no matter if it was Deevil or demons... Plus there are other entities in that interestingly complex dimension that would 'awaken' because of the events...

[jarlaxle]

I'm getting a phase world game together so far looks like monday nights. I could cange minion war in the setting. Its more exploration so nut sure how often the group would be at center

[DhAkael]

-meh- there are far more subtle and more ancient threats than the lackys of Dyvall & Hades in my campaign.
..and bizzarely enough... CANON.
Seriously; Cormal? Cormal will be running with it's tentancles tucked away and going "yipe yipe yipe".
As for 1 lone Rockhead traitor; puleeezzzzzzz NOT happening. No ONE person is that good unless their name is Kusanagi Mokoto ... MAJOR Kusanagi.
And she's busy dealing with an overly amorous heavy-weapons guy back in her own dimension

[Braden Campbell]

My Players have access to a starship with time travel capabilities, so, really, the Minion War events are just one in slew of alternate presents/futures.

[DhAkael]

My Players have access to a starship with time travel capabilities, so, really, the Minion War events are just one in slew of alternate presents/futures.

Yarp!

[Jorel]

I don't see the problem here. Great Work Carl! Honestly after 15+ years Phase World needed a little spice added and a little plastic surgery, like a facelift or something. I really enjoyed the twists and turns. If people are really that unhappy with it then the time travel aspect is perfect, Phase World has been majestic for far too long, they can go and play in those times if they want. Thanks Carl for not keeping it boring and stagnant.

[Svartalf]

While I've generally liked those works of Carl's that I've acquired, I've not yet bought anything linked to MW, and I may shop browse some of those if I find them in store (supply is spotty because they sell so little PB stuff that they rarely order top ups on their stock), but I'm really not sure I'll like it... and the concept of an "invasion of Center (short of the bottom three levels that might be vulnerable) seems kind of ludicrous to me

[jarlaxle]

Unless you are playig a cosmic good and evil campaign/ or everyone wants demons in the game/character specific (shifter/witch demon hunter still needn't be minion war)
Though i do believe if i were to run a pw mw i would allow the champions of justice and good the chance to stop it from ever happening.
I bet you would make a great cosmo knight tasked with the resposablity of stop the minion war out break.

[Svartalf]

I do like to vex my players with copious amounts of supernatural threats. My problem is that if I include stuff in my campaigns, I tend to go all or nothing, as changing bits is liable to alter the logic of the whole, and I'm leery of missing the forest and being challenged in mid game by the dreaded magic word ... "Balderdash !!"

[The Beast]

My Players have access to a starship with time travel capabilities, so, really, the Minion War events are just one in slew of alternate presents/futures.

Is it bigger on the inside than it is on the outside?

[Carl Gleba]

My Players have access to a starship with time travel capabilities, so, really, the Minion War events are just one in slew of alternate presents/futures.

Is it bigger on the inside than it is on the outside?

Our ship was

[Nekira Sudacne]

I don't see the problem here. Great Work Carl! Honestly after 15+ years Phase World needed a little spice added and a little plastic surgery, like a facelift or something. I really enjoyed the twists and turns. If people are really that unhappy with it then the time travel aspect is perfect, Phase World has been majestic for far too long, they can go and play in those times if they want. Thanks Carl for not keeping it boring and stagnant.

Yes, the problem is that it actually creates a great deal of confusion and great potential to drive away new players who havn't] been playing for 15+ years. They get lured in by the sleek magesty of phase world, then discover it's all now a lie. Again, the entire minion war saga should have been a crossover adventure model instead of a metaplot. There isn't a single good reason for making it metaplot i've heard from anyone, even the author, give, as opposed to optional material especially if the author considers the whole thing optional in the first place.

[The Beast]

My Players have access to a starship with time travel capabilities, so, really, the Minion War events are just one in slew of alternate presents/futures.

Is it bigger on the inside than it is on the outside?

Our ship was

Sweet.

[shiiv-a]

wonders why the words 'to be used as a guide only' were ever removed?

still wish i knew what book i saw that in . .

[DhAkael]

I honestly don't see what the wangsting is about.
The minion war is NOT a be-all-game-end-all scenario. The Siege of Tolkeen was supposed to be that. Guess what, both I AND my players all agreed, it was a waste of dead-tree and moved on. Oh sure, Tolkeen died, but the stupid iditotic meta-plotzings that Coffin was forced to write by the power-that-is, are ignored.

I'm not saying that the minion war is stupid or idiotic; in fact, unlike S.o.T. it is well thought out and decently plotted; I'm still not gonna do it as-written though.

I have other stuff just as important, if not more so, going on in my game 'verse. I'm pretty sure that there are other GM's out in the grand-great-beyond who will be willing to go "oh yeah...minion war...FOOTNOTE, moving on..."
And if not *shrug* Oh well.
Here's a thing...why not GM a game and write-out the assault on Center alltogether? THERE's an idea.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's more of the psycological impact. When a superpower is invaded, it weakens them, even if it's beaten off.

[Jay05]

Nekira; what about this, do you have a GM around who would be willing to lead up to the minion war, and if the invasion of center is months or even years of play time away, would that satisfy? Also what do the other players in your group/groups think of this issue? As gaming in general should be fun for all if the group of players come to a concensus of "This is what we'd like to do" might not a capable GM be convinced to set it up? Just a suggestion.

[Hystrix]

It's more of the psycological impact. When a superpower is invaded, it weakens them, even if it's beaten off.

I have to tell you, I don't get the whole "majestic" or "untouched" feel from PW/Center. In the very first PW book (DB 2) they talked about occasions where huge armies coming through Rifts in Gateland were fought off by 50,000-100,000 city defenders. While the attackers were obviously not successful, but I would hardly call Center untouched... just sayin'...

[Carl Gleba]

It's more of the psycological impact. When a superpower is invaded, it weakens them, even if it's beaten off.

I have to tell you, I don't get the whole "majestic" or "untouched" feel from PW/Center. In the very first PW book (DB 2) they talked about occasions where huge armies coming through Rifts in Gateland were fought off by 50,000-100,000 city defenders. While the attackers were obviously not successful, but I would hardly call Center untouched... just sayin'...

Very true and then there are the failed invasions by the Splugorth and the various pirate armada's that tried to take Center.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's more of the psycological impact. When a superpower is invaded, it weakens them, even if it's beaten off.

I have to tell you, I don't get the whole "majestic" or "untouched" feel from PW/Center. In the very first PW book (DB 2) they talked about occasions where huge armies coming through Rifts in Gateland were fought off by 50,000-100,000 city defenders. While the attackers were obviously not successful, but I would hardly call Center untouched... just sayin'...

Well that's it, They were invaded and beaten off inside of a day. That's called an "unholy ass-whooping" and actually strengthens the untouchable image.

[The Beast]

Also: I just have to gripe: I can't beleive one turncoat Promethian could compromise Centers security so thoughly. I just can't. They're too advanced to be that stupid. I can think of AI schemes to make what happened completely impossible at much lower technology levels.

Hey, no one thought a private could do the same with our nation's secrets...

[Nekira Sudacne]

Also: I just have to gripe: I can't beleive one turncoat Promethian could compromise Centers security so thoughly. I just can't. They're too advanced to be that stupid. I can think of AI schemes to make what happened completely impossible at much lower technology levels.

Hey, no one thought a private could do the same with our nation's secrets...

Riiiight. That's so equivlent to copying a bunch of files off work.

[Hystrix]

It's more of the psycological impact. When a superpower is invaded, it weakens them, even if it's beaten off.

I have to tell you, I don't get the whole "majestic" or "untouched" feel from PW/Center. In the very first PW book (DB 2) they talked about occasions where huge armies coming through Rifts in Gateland were fought off by 50,000-100,000 city defenders. While the attackers were obviously not successful, but I would hardly call Center untouched... just sayin'...

Well that's it, They were invaded and beaten off inside of a day. That's called an "unholy ass-whooping" and actually strengthens the untouchable image.

Dose it say "one day" I'm thinking if they needed tens of thusands of soldiers, (which, logistically is a lot more the PB ever makes it out to be), that it probably took more than a day. To pool that kind of manpowers suggests that it may have been a little more difficult than that...

[Hystrix]

Also: I just have to gripe: I can't beleive one turncoat Promethian could compromise Centers security so thoughly. I just can't. They're too advanced to be that stupid. I can think of AI schemes to make what happened completely impossible at much lower technology levels.

Hey, no one thought a private could do the same with our nation's secrets...

Riiiight. That's so equivlent to copying a bunch of files off work.

One seemingly lowley guy sells secreats to the enemy... sounds exactly the same...

[The Beast]

Also: I just have to gripe: I can't beleive one turncoat Promethian could compromise Centers security so thoughly. I just can't. They're too advanced to be that stupid. I can think of AI schemes to make what happened completely impossible at much lower technology levels.

Hey, no one thought a private could do the same with our nation's secrets...

Riiiight. That's so equivlent to copying a bunch of files off work.

That's just one example of someone doing something that no one else thinks is possible. History is full of stuff like that.

[Vrykolas2k]

Like I've said in a couple of other threads, the invasion of Center should spell the end of the Minion War.

[The Dark Elf]

Like I've said in a couple of other threads, the invasion of Center should spell the end of the Minion War.

The freeing of Lictalon should spell the end of the minion war.

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's more of the psycological impact. When a superpower is invaded, it weakens them, even if it's beaten off.

I have to tell you, I don't get the whole "majestic" or "untouched" feel from PW/Center. In the very first PW book (DB 2) they talked about occasions where huge armies coming through Rifts in Gateland were fought off by 50,000-100,000 city defenders. While the attackers were obviously not successful, but I would hardly call Center untouched... just sayin'...

Well that's it, They were invaded and beaten off inside of a day. That's called an "unholy ass-whooping" and actually strengthens the untouchable image.

Dose it say "one day" I'm thinking if they needed tens of thusands of soldiers, (which, logistically is a lot more the PB ever makes it out to be), that it probably took more than a day. To pool that kind of manpowers suggests that it may have been a little more difficult than that...

Um, your talking about a race with natural teleportation. Assembling that kind of force takes about 5 minutes. All you need to do is send out a radio broadcast to standby units with the co-ordinates and Poof, they are there.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Also: I just have to gripe: I can't beleive one turncoat Promethian could compromise Centers security so thoughly. I just can't. They're too advanced to be that stupid. I can think of AI schemes to make what happened completely impossible at much lower technology levels.

Hey, no one thought a private could do the same with our nation's secrets...

Riiiight. That's so equivlent to copying a bunch of files off work.

That's just one example of someone doing something that no one else thinks is possible. History is full of stuff like that.

Just go on thinking that's relevant.

[Hystrix]

It's more of the psycological impact. When a superpower is invaded, it weakens them, even if it's beaten off.

I have to tell you, I don't get the whole "majestic" or "untouched" feel from PW/Center. In the very first PW book (DB 2) they talked about occasions where huge armies coming through Rifts in Gateland were fought off by 50,000-100,000 city defenders. While the attackers were obviously not successful, but I would hardly call Center untouched... just sayin'...

Well that's it, They were invaded and beaten off inside of a day. That's called an "unholy ass-whooping" and actually strengthens the untouchable image.

Dose it say "one day" I'm thinking if they needed tens of thusands of soldiers, (which, logistically is a lot more the PB ever makes it out to be), that it probably took more than a day. To pool that kind of manpowers suggests that it may have been a little more difficult than that...

Um, your talking about a race with natural teleportation. Assembling that kind of force takes about 5 minutes. All you need to do is send out a radio broadcast to standby units with the co-ordinates and Poof, they are there.

You do know that there is a difference between them arriving in a short time, and them winning in one day. a battle with tens of thousands of soldiers could take a lot longer then a day... Plus it isn't a matter of simply teleporting. it's availabilty. Center is a pretty large city to police...

[Carl Gleba]

I can see how it's relevant. What did that one Promethean do exactly? Give away information. As far as the prometheans being "too advanced to be that stupid", that is kinda silly. Being a 4D race, couldn't this whole mess be PLANNED by the Second Stagers? Hold back on ascension for one specific first stager in the hopes of cultivating treason, just to shake up the rest of their "children" into realizing that even Center isn't 100% "safe"(so that the "little" blockheads won't get too cocksure of themselves). Sounds like what a Vorlon would do, and the second stagers do a lot of Vorlon-esque actions. To assume that the Second Stagers hadn't seen, prepared, and wanted the MW to come to Center is underestimating them.

Plus, "advanced" doesn't necessarily mean "immune to epic blunders brought on by hubris". How long has it been since a first stager with vital intel "went rogue"?

Nice Now that's thinking outside the box!

[Nekira Sudacne]

I can see how it's relevant. What did that one Promethean do exactly? Give away information. As far as the prometheans being "too advanced to be that stupid", that is kinda silly. Being a 4D race, couldn't this whole mess be PLANNED by the Second Stagers? Hold back on ascension for one specific first stager in the hopes of cultivating treason, just to shake up the rest of their "children" into realizing that even Center isn't 100% "safe"(so that the "little" blockheads won't get too cocksure of themselves). Sounds like what a Vorlon would do, and the second stagers do a lot of Vorlon-esque actions. To assume that the Second Stagers hadn't seen, prepared, and wanted the MW to come to Center is underestimating them.

Plus, "advanced" doesn't necessarily mean "immune to epic blunders brought on by hubris". How long has it been since a first stager with vital intel "went rogue"?

I suppose I should clarify: Whatever information he had shouldn't have mattered so much sinse a well-operated AI control system could have rendered all of it save floor plans obsolete in less time than it takes you to blink once it became clear of a threat. It makes a lot less sense the more you know about computer theory.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I can see how it's relevant. What did that one Promethean do exactly? Give away information. As far as the prometheans being "too advanced to be that stupid", that is kinda silly. Being a 4D race, couldn't this whole mess be PLANNED by the Second Stagers? Hold back on ascension for one specific first stager in the hopes of cultivating treason, just to shake up the rest of their "children" into realizing that even Center isn't 100% "safe"(so that the "little" blockheads won't get too cocksure of themselves). Sounds like what a Vorlon would do, and the second stagers do a lot of Vorlon-esque actions. To assume that the Second Stagers hadn't seen, prepared, and wanted the MW to come to Center is underestimating them.

Plus, "advanced" doesn't necessarily mean "immune to epic blunders brought on by hubris". How long has it been since a first stager with vital intel "went rogue"?

Nice Now that's thinking outside the box!

And if you had made that the case, I wouldn't have as much problem.

I think the fundamental divide between us is, I don't look at a book and try to see how I can make it work, because, as someone who buys RPG products, that's not what I pay money for. I buy books so I can AVOID trying to make a senario that makes sense. I'm paying you to do it for me, and...you didn't. You didn't give me a senario that can work without a lot of work on my part. I wanted to pay YOU to do it for me.

I can do SOME, yes, all GM's must intergrate what has already happened in the game with new material. But I want 90% of the work done for me. This is more like 60%, with the added flaw that much of it simply breaks my suspension of disbelif.



However, you've made it clear that you wrote it with another philosphy in mind, that your role is simply to inspire other GM's to make their own things out of it.

Those kinds of customers will be happy with it.

Those like me will not be.

I mean...COULD it have been a plan by the second stagers to sabatoge the youngin's to teach 'em a lesson? Maybe. Maybe they really absurdly incompetent with security to the point that ONE person CAN know enough to compromise it to that level. and that's what get's me. Frankly, no one being alive should know even a FACTION of what they need to in order to do what was done on a project that size, and that's what gets me. you gave a, well..."partial" job and left it to the GM's to figure it out. If you were gonna do it with center, you should have done 95% of everything that's needed to make it a realistic senario and left about 5% for us to plug in what we're already using.

The bottom line is: I don't need to pay ANY money to have a senario where demons invade Phase World, and have it tie in with overarching invasions on other major parallel dimensions. I can write up something useable for my group and my game in a few weeks with just the books I already have (not to professional quality no, but it's about as much time as it usually takes me to outline and plan a campaign good enough for my group).If i'm going to pay upwards of 100$ on a series of books to do that for me, I expect it to be done for me, and to be complete and beleivable in it's own right in complete absence of any work on the GM's part, so the GM can just tweak slightly to settings and go

Instead, you did about 60% of the work and told us to fill in the blanks. I'm not happy with that, I pay money to avoid that much work.

Your a good writer Gebla. I wouldn't have kept buying if you wern't. But seriously...you CAN do better, I KNOW you can, and that's part of why i'm so harsh on you. the flaw that toppled a goliath should have been lavishly discribed in incricate detail, and should have been reserched thorughly to provide the most depth and realism possible.

Instead, you went and said "Judas did it!" and sort of glossed over it.

[strtkwr]

I can see how it's relevant. What did that one Promethean do exactly? Give away information. As far as the prometheans being "too advanced to be that stupid", that is kinda silly. Being a 4D race, couldn't this whole mess be PLANNED by the Second Stagers? Hold back on ascension for one specific first stager in the hopes of cultivating treason, just to shake up the rest of their "children" into realizing that even Center isn't 100% "safe"(so that the "little" blockheads won't get too cocksure of themselves). Sounds like what a Vorlon would do, and the second stagers do a lot of Vorlon-esque actions. To assume that the Second Stagers hadn't seen, prepared, and wanted the MW to come to Center is underestimating them.

Plus, "advanced" doesn't necessarily mean "immune to epic blunders brought on by hubris". How long has it been since a first stager with vital intel "went rogue"?

Nice Now that's thinking outside the box!

And if you had made that the case, I wouldn't have as much problem.

I think the fundamental divide between us is, I don't look at a book and try to see how I can make it work, because, as someone who buys RPG products, that's not what I pay money for. I buy books so I can AVOID trying to make a senario that makes sense. I'm paying you to do it for me, and...you didn't. You didn't give me a senario that can work without a lot of work on my part. I wanted to pay YOU to do it for me.

I can do SOME, yes, all GM's must intergrate what has already happened in the game with new material. But I want 90% of the work done for me. This is more like 60%, with the added flaw that much of it simply breaks my suspension of disbelif.



However, you've made it clear that you wrote it with another philosphy in mind, that your role is simply to inspire other GM's to make their own things out of it.

Those kinds of customers will be happy with it.

Those like me will not be.

I mean...COULD it have been a plan by the second stagers to sabatoge the youngin's to teach 'em a lesson? Maybe. Maybe they really absurdly incompetent with security to the point that ONE person CAN know enough to compromise it to that level. and that's what get's me. Frankly, no one being alive should know even a FACTION of what they need to in order to do what was done on a project that size, and that's what gets me. you gave a, well..."partial" job and left it to the GM's to figure it out. If you were gonna do it with center, you should have done 95% of everything that's needed to make it a realistic senario and left about 5% for us to plug in what we're already using.

The bottom line is: I don't need to pay ANY money to have a senario where demons invade Phase World, and have it tie in with overarching invasions on other major parallel dimensions. I can write up something useable for my group and my game in a few weeks with just the books I already have (not to professional quality no, but it's about as much time as it usually takes me to outline and plan a campaign good enough for my group).If i'm going to pay upwards of 100$ on a series of books to do that for me, I expect it to be done for me, and to be complete and beleivable in it's own right in complete absence of any work on the GM's part, so the GM can just tweak slightly to settings and go

Instead, you did about 60% of the work and told us to fill in the blanks. I'm not happy with that, I pay money to avoid that much work.

Your a good writer Gebla. I wouldn't have kept buying if you wern't. But seriously...you CAN do better, I KNOW you can, and that's part of why i'm so harsh on you. the flaw that toppled a goliath should have been lavishly discribed in incricate detail, and should have been reserched thorughly to provide the most depth and realism possible.

Instead, you went and said "Judas did it!" and sort of glossed over it.

So, can I assume then that you also did not like Rifts WB 4: Africa, WB 10: Juicer Uprising, WB 11: CWC, SB1 (revised) and SB2: The Mechanoids? All of these had some kind of Meta plot to them, as they were considered part of "canon", and were not adventure modules. Now, they may not have been world changers, but they did impact the world around them. The Minion War ibooks are open ended, so the invasion of PW does not have to necessarly be a world changer either.

Now, you may not like the idea, but have you tried joining a game running the Minion War, since you cannot find one that is not? You might find you enjoy it more than you think.

[Svartalf]

There's the rub... world changers.
A metaplot that impacts the world by adding new elements is generally no biggie
one that substantially changes elements that may be important in individual campaigns is harder, because it may require the DM to alter the thing to make it conform to what he has and doesn't want to change

One that changes major bits of the statu quo may be rejected en bloc, meaning the book where it is may not be regarded as worthwhile to buy, and books mentioning it and building on it may also be seen as worthless.

[Jay05]

There's the rub... world changers.
A metaplot that impacts the world by adding new elements is generally no biggie
one that substantially changes elements that may be important in individual campaigns is harder, because it may require the DM to alter the thing to make it conform to what he has and doesn't want to change

One that changes major bits of the statu quo may be rejected en bloc, meaning the book where it is may not be regarded as worthwhile to buy, and books mentioning it and building on it may also be seen as worthless.

Nothing remains static. If it does, it quickly ceases to be relevant. If changing the world via time and events moving forward is a problem...

[Chronicle]

Personally, i don't see a definate winner being detailed in the invasion of Phase World as writen in the books. Which to me would mean it could be another of the many attempts to take phaseworld that with the help of the players will not happen.

Also Second stagers could be letting the events unfold to hopelessness only to show any future enemies that when they act it doesn't matter. They are just waiting for the right time to set the "Example" to other would be conquerers. They are one of the current Elder races afterall.

[Nekira Sudacne]

There's the rub... world changers.
A metaplot that impacts the world by adding new elements is generally no biggie
one that substantially changes elements that may be important in individual campaigns is harder, because it may require the DM to alter the thing to make it conform to what he has and doesn't want to change

One that changes major bits of the statu quo may be rejected en bloc, meaning the book where it is may not be regarded as worthwhile to buy, and books mentioning it and building on it may also be seen as worthless.

Nothing remains static. If it does, it quickly ceases to be relevant. If changing the world via time and events moving forward is a problem...

Gamelines should remian static. They form the baseline for all campaigns to be born from. Theres no NEED for something like this.

[Svartalf]

There's the rub... world changers.
A metaplot that impacts the world by adding new elements is generally no biggie
one that substantially changes elements that may be important in individual campaigns is harder, because it may require the DM to alter the thing to make it conform to what he has and doesn't want to change

One that changes major bits of the statu quo may be rejected en bloc, meaning the book where it is may not be regarded as worthwhile to buy, and books mentioning it and building on it may also be seen as worthless.

Nothing remains static. If it does, it quickly ceases to be relevant. If changing the world via time and events moving forward is a problem...

Yeah, but prescribing major changes, that may go counter to the DM's plans or desires is a good way to lose that DM. Every game I know where the official campaign setting has known major changes that were ordained from the publisher (forgettable realms, legend of five rings, WoD games...) has lost customers who liked the previous state of things better than the new when they made the move. For some, it seems that the loss was significant and bad for sales insofar as they lost more old fans than they gained new ones.

[jarlaxle]

Ummm we are talking about a universe or sorry megaverse of parrelle time lines and dimension. Minion wars to me is plot device that needs better than new characters. and would take a while to trigger.
We do a lot of universe resets too after campain or all players dead. We some times continue too. As Gm i leave that to my player characters. and if i had a player that dint want all out minion war well it could be a shadow war in phase world too. represented by the demon kind slowly corupting the populations of primative planets thennmoving to less primative but back water.

[calto40k]

Gotta agree with jax on this one.

[calto40k]

Also how bout we all stop whining and just play the god damn game the way we want to as suggested by the authors of the game and its add ons

[Nekira Sudacne]

I find it hilarious you make that comment after no one's responded in the thread for two weeks

[DhAkael]

I find it hilarious you make that comment after no one's responded in the thread for two weeks

Give the guy some slack; he's been away from a I-Net source for a few weeks.

That being said, Calto's comment still stands.
One does NOT have to bow to canon or "as written" material. It's a game, and (repeats again until blue in the face)
"The final call on any ruling or material used in the game is the GM's call. Period.
Dot.
End of line."

That doesn't mean that a player can't "POLITELY" negotiate slight changes.

Hey; weirder things have happend.

[Jay05]

While still maintaining that things in setting should move forward, I agree 100% with DhAkael here. If the Minion War doesn't fit with what you're doing, don't use it.

This is not something that requires complaining and or poo pooing simply because you don't like it. I could be wrong but I think you're in the minority.