Coalition Tactics vs Invulnerability

[LostOne]

Just curious how the CS would respond in your games.

Two scenarios:
1. A humanoid, possibly super powered that is super strong, super fast, does not eat/breathe, and is immune to all damage that isn't magical/psychic.

2. Same as #1 except it is much bigger than humanoid, like a creature that is the size of a tank, semi-truck and trailer, etc.

In either case it is in CS territory, has destroyed a couple patrols and is heading in the direction of a major CS base, but taking it's time about it.

I don't recall this being addressed in the various sourcebooks, but maybe it has been.

[dragonfett]

Simple, throw every psychic at the creature, especially Bursters and Zappers. And they my even hire out mercenaries as well. Remember, the CS do have psychics in their ranks.

Now if the creature were invulnerable to psychic attacks as well, then their only option would be to hire out mercenary units with magic users in their ranks covertly to go and kill the creature, all the while having a unit (or many, depending on how ever many that they had to hire) waiting and watching the mercs until the creature is confirmed as dead, then the CS units would attack the mercs and kill every one of them, blaming it on the mercs getting into the crossfire between the creature and them.

[DhAkael]

Kientic kill weapons (like High-explosive missiles and railguns) work REAL well against 'Invulnerability' ... well the spell at least.

[LostOne]

The real question is how to KILL him and that would require knowing more specifics about the foe.

But that's the question. How would the CS do this when their weapons can't kill this guy, not even scratch him. Would they actually dig into the Black Vault hoping for a solution or take a chance on mercs and lose face that they need help from magic lovers and non-CS psychics. Are there psychics with psi-swords and other MD attacks in the CS?

But if you want more specifics, let's go crazy and say superpowered being, Supernatural PS 70, 800 MDC, fast regen (1d6x10 MD/melee) can only be hurt by magic and psionics, doesn't eat or breathe or sleep (adding that one, forgot about it) and is capable of moving very fast (sonic speed) but for whatever reason is just casually walking towards the base. Some kind of ranged attack like Super Energy Expulsion.

[Killer Cyborg]

The real question is how to KILL him and that would require knowing more specifics about the foe.

But that's the question. How would the CS do this when their weapons can't kill this guy, not even scratch him.

Just to toss it out there, at some point in Heroes Unlimited, they decided that Particle Beams could inflict partial damage to Invulnerable characters (even though they're impervious to both physical impact and to energy).
So if such a character showed up on Rifts Earth, it's quite possible that the CS could take it out with particle beams.

BUT I get that's not what you're going for.

Would they actually dig into the Black Vault hoping for a solution or take a chance on mercs and lose face that they need help from magic lovers and non-CS psychics. Are there psychics with psi-swords and other MD attacks in the CS?

Yes, and that's what they'd use: Psi-Battalion.
Only they wouldn't necessarily need to damage the thing.
Mine Wipe could slow it down, Mentally Possess Other could make it behave, Bio-Manipulation: Paralysis could get it to hold still, etc.
And once you got it to hold still long enough for a few tons of megadamage concrete to set around the thing, it doesn't matter if it's alive or not; it's not going anywhere.

[The Galactus Kid]

And once you got it to hold still long enough for a few tons of megadamage concrete to set around the thing, it doesn't matter if it's alive or not; it's not going anywhere.

Then launch it into orbit and let the killer satelites sort it out.

[LostOne]

Ok, thanks.

[Lenwen]

Just curious how the CS would respond in your games.

Two scenarios:
1. A humanoid, possibly super powered that is super strong, super fast, does not eat/breathe, and is immune to all damage that isn't magical/psychic.

2. Same as #1 except it is much bigger than humanoid, like a creature that is the size of a tank, semi-truck and trailer, etc.

In either case it is in CS territory, has destroyed a couple patrols and is heading in the direction of a major CS base, but taking it's time about it.

I don't recall this being addressed in the various sourcebooks, but maybe it has been.

Large heavy weights ..

Even SNPS characters can lift only so much .. if they are invulnerable to everything you can throw at them .. Make it so they can not move.

Easily accomplished by simply dropping a DHT on top of said Invulnerable character .. and if you can do it right .. you can even trap his entire body sept his head which means now you can use a Psychic to do their thing to find out all you need to with mind bond.

Hope this helps.

[dragonfett]

Woah, did me and Killer Cyborg agree on something right off the bat without 2 or 3 pages of back and forth debate? I hope this isn't one of the signs of the apocalypse.

[The Beast]

They outsource the job to some magic users. Why waste a human's life when you can get the monsters, mutants, and mages to go after themselves?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Just curious how the CS would respond in your games.

Two scenarios:
1. A humanoid, possibly super powered that is super strong, super fast, does not eat/breathe, and is immune to all damage that isn't magical/psychic.

2. Same as #1 except it is much bigger than humanoid, like a creature that is the size of a tank, semi-truck and trailer, etc.

In either case it is in CS territory, has destroyed a couple patrols and is heading in the direction of a major CS base, but taking it's time about it.

I don't recall this being addressed in the various sourcebooks, but maybe it has been.

Well, if your going to be bringing in HU powers, sinse the HU GMG says that particle beams inflict half damage, they would just light 'em up with lots of them.

Alternately, use a bunch of Mega-damage bindings.

Alternately, have a Psi-batallion psychic mentally possess him and have him beat himself to death.

[Steeler49er]

A) No one should Ever use the ret-con garbage that was posted by a single moment of "Oppinionation" in one single "small" and very hidden sentance of a HU book by an author trying to throw in Their personal attempt at "Fairness) by stating that "Partical Beams Now do ½damage to Invunlerables"!
As Killercyborg has perfectly put it, It's an illogical rule since Partical Beam tech is Not adavanced supertech (Frankly it was inveted Before Lasers). Worse is to have an "Invulnerable" go from being able to take ∞ amounts of partical beam damage to taking a Jump of 50% damage! One second ago you were Unharmed by a Partical Beam doing 1800 sdc of damage, Now your Vaped cuz you took 900 sdc's!
It wasn't some small newly made vulnerability like 1%, it wasn't even 5%, or 10%, or 20%, Or 40%, but a whopping 50%!!! That's not some small leap... That's a huge leap from ∞ and total invulnerability.




THAT SAID, tpo the OP's question....

Just curious how the CS would respond in your games.

They'd dig a Really very big VERY DEEP ditch and trick him into falling in, or they'd hit him hard enough to stun him and knock him in, OR THEY'D USE A TELEKINETIC and throw him in... Then quickly cover it up with molten metal and dirt!


The guy will eventually die due to old age... Hey, you never said he was immortal too!

[Nekira Sudacne]

A) No one should Ever use the ret-con garbage that was posted by a single moment of "Oppinionation" in one single "small" and very hidden sentance of a HU book by an author trying to throw in Their personal attempt at "Fairness) by stating that "Partical Beams Now do ½damage to Invunlerables"!

Yes, a book writen by Kevin Siembedia in a book called the game masters guide intended to refine and expand upon the rules of the origional can't possibly be intended to legimately nerf a power that was potentially unbalancing. The sheer nerve!

[Blue_Lion]

How whould the CS deal with it, depnds on how much warning they had. If it was deteceted or summon in the burbs then Psi battalions whould be called in when it got past line troops, or may respond with line troops.

With more warning they whould hit it with line troops, failing that on a human sized one either psi batialon or air strikes when one fails the other. ON the larger creature when ground forces fail then heavy air strikes tatical nukes may be used when that fails then psi-batailon. Asuming that the Vangaurd does not deal with it first. If it totaly whipes threw cs forces the vanguard whould step out of the shadows and stop it. CS just will not go down that easy to important to story line.

As to the HU partical beam giving it that power whould be out of context in rifts. It may habe been put in to rebalance something in rifts it is not needed. Real question is what happens to a cs patrol when a pack of vampire jump on them.

[Rimmer]

Capture with Telekinesis, and imprison with cell made from anti grav tech from Triax.

[keir451]

The real question is how to KILL him and that would require knowing more specifics about the foe.

But that's the question. How would the CS do this when their weapons can't kill this guy, not even scratch him. Would they actually dig into the Black Vault hoping for a solution or take a chance on mercs and lose face that they need help from magic lovers and non-CS psychics. Are there psychics with psi-swords and other MD attacks in the CS?

But if you want more specifics, let's go crazy and say superpowered being, Supernatural PS 70, 800 MDC, fast regen (1d6x10 MD/melee) can only be hurt by magic and psionics, doesn't eat or breathe or sleep (adding that one, forgot about it) and is capable of moving very fast (sonic speed) but for whatever reason is just casually walking towards the base. Some kind of ranged attack like Super Energy Expulsion.

I agree w/ dragonfett, throw CS psychics against it, the CS has their own Mind Melters who can create psi-swords and are militarily trained as well. I could also see the CS "using" magical based mercenaries to do the job for them, especially if more than a few of those mercs are killled in the process and then wiping the rest out and laying the blame for the creatures/beings existance on them in the first place.

[The Beast]

If the super-powered being is human, does the CS even have reason to attack it?

The thing about super powers in HU2 or Skraypers is that they aren't magic and aren't always used by non-humans. I'm not sure the CS would find issue with a super-powered human - they might even offer it a home or work.

Yes, the CS would seek to kill the super-being. (Check the section in CB1 on HU characters.)

[LostOne]

Question: Does the CS have to kill it?
If the super-powered being is human, does the CS even have reason to attack it?

"It can lift a tank." "It's not human, waste it." "It looks human." "It must be a disguise."
In any case, I said humanoid in the first post, so that is most likely not a human.

Onto the question of killing it. With invulnerability in Skraypers, you have a few ways to subdue the character:

-Supernatural punches/kicks inflict 1/2 damage. The Lone Star Mutants often can be breed with supernatural strength.

My understanding is those critters are unpredictable. That tactic reeks of desperation.

-gases/poisons/toxins can subdue the character. Although they can't kill it, you could certainly limit it's abilities.

-The only sure way to kill the invulnerable character it at a timely pace, is suffocation/drowning, to which it has little resistances (aside from being able to hold breath for 12 minutes..).

Also negated in the original post. It doesn't need to breath/eat. I also tried to limit it to an unspecific Invulnerability, not the actual power. However later clarified to that power because people wanted specifics. The critter in question in the game I'm asking for doesn't have the weaknesses of the Invulnerability power such as the poisons/toxins, etc.

[Her0man0]

I think the CS would be screwed...

even though its walking up slowly doesnt mean the CS even knows its completely invulnerable.

They would react with tech firepower first, its already destroyed a few patrols so they would most likely throw power armor or robot vehicles in its direction

failing that the CS would release a massive strike of missiles in every form, more tanks, more power armor etc.

by the time they got the gist of this monsters capabilities it would already be pissed off and rushing in with the sonic speed you mentioned

by the time the psi battalion was mobilized the monster would have already destroyed most of the CS armaments, dogboys, soldiers, and through their defenses and might even have Carl's head perched on its pinky in salute to its victory.

while the sn strength and invulnerability make it almost unstoppable, the sonic speed really takes the cake as far as getting it done in less than a day tops.

[Steeler49er]

A) No one should Ever use the ret-con garbage that was posted by a single moment of "Oppinionation" in one single "small" and very hidden sentance of a HU book by an author trying to throw in Their personal attempt at "Fairness) by stating that "Partical Beams Now do ½damage to Invunlerables"!

Yes, a book writen by Kevin Siembedia in a book called the game masters guide intended to refine and expand upon the rules of the origional can't possibly be intended to legimately nerf a power that was potentially unbalancing. The sheer nerve!

YEAH!!! That's what I said to neky...
The nerve of him.



_____________________________________________
My Real point was that 50% is a Rediculous jump from No damage period. Secondly Partical Beams have no reason why they should effect Inv peeps, period. Their not advanced tech, heck yopur old TV's used them. It would have been better to simply Nerf Invulnerability by making it either a Mega power Or by forcing you to take a "Vulnerabilty" from the Mega-Vulnerabilites list. Barring those Very logical suggestions (which have been made by peeps here on the boards for time n memorium) then why not go with "Invulnerability takes 1% damage from Partical Beams"...
1% is Allot when where as before you took 0% damage from partical beam weapons that could do 1sdc out to infinity damage.
HECK... even 10% would have been pushing it, but thatwould have been better than a Whopping 50%! That's all my point is.
Besides, that idiot GM guide was FULL of annoying retcon and weird rules that contradicted themselves. Remember that the GM Guide is Also the book that brought us that GEM of "No two APS/Shapechanging powers can be used together" rule, which is Universally ignored by PB players as it is Both Ret-Con garbage And it is Illogical since I could Cheat TEN TIMES WORSE by just combining:
APS: Water and Hyperdensity!!!

That combo sound familiar to you neky?
It awta, it's yours.
And it's the best combo ever come up by anyone.
Balance is the GM's job and Not the perview of More and More rules.

[Blue_Lion]

I think the CS would be screwed...

even though its walking up slowly doesnt mean the CS even knows its completely invulnerable.

They would react with tech firepower first, its already destroyed a few patrols so they would most likely throw power armor or robot vehicles in its direction

failing that the CS would release a massive strike of missiles in every form, more tanks, more power armor etc.

by the time they got the gist of this monsters capabilities it would already be pissed off and rushing in with the sonic speed you mentioned

by the time the psi battalion was mobilized the monster would have already destroyed most of the CS armaments, dogboys, soldiers, and through their defenses and might even have Carl's head perched on its pinky in salute to its victory.

while the sn strength and invulnerability make it almost unstoppable, the sonic speed really takes the cake as far as getting it done in less than a day tops.

You mean by the time some one at the front gate gets moblized to deal with him before he goes threw it. How much MDC does chi town have that he can just chew it up so easy, it is a huge MDC structure even with sonic speed he can be stoped. Also I rember one of the rifters had expermental CS super powered soldiers. They may not be able to stop it but slow it down. And what about mages or even Vangaurd hiding in the burbs why they not respand. The speed thing makes me think you are tring to say no one has time to respawn But it will take them time to smach into Chi-town and as he wades threw line forces slowing him down as he kills them psi will be around.

Here is one precognition where will creature X breach or when whould something breach. Not relible 100% but with such a major event i find and a paranoid military state why whould they not try and have a surpize wating for it.

[Lenwen]

I think the CS would be screwed...

even though its walking up slowly doesnt mean the CS even knows its completely invulnerable.

They would react with tech firepower first, its already destroyed a few patrols so they would most likely throw power armor or robot vehicles in its direction

failing that the CS would release a massive strike of missiles in every form, more tanks, more power armor etc.

by the time they got the gist of this monsters capabilities it would already be pissed off and rushing in with the sonic speed you mentioned

by the time the psi battalion was mobilized the monster would have already destroyed most of the CS armaments, dogboys, soldiers, and through their defenses and might even have Carl's head perched on its pinky in salute to its victory.

while the sn strength and invulnerability make it almost unstoppable, the sonic speed really takes the cake as far as getting it done in less than a day tops.

You mean by the time some one at the front gate gets moblized to deal with him before he goes threw it. How much MDC does chi town have that he can just chew it up so easy, it is a huge MDC structure even with sonic speed he can be stoped. Also I rember one of the rifters had expermental CS super powered soldiers. They may not be able to stop it but slow it down. And what about mages or even Vangaurd hiding in the burbs why they not respand. The speed thing makes me think you are tring to say no one has time to respawn But it will take them time to smach into Chi-town and as he wades threw line forces slowing him down as he kills them psi will be around.

Here is one precognition where will creature X breach or when whould something breach. Not relible 100% but with such a major event i find and a paranoid military state why whould they not try and have a surpize wating for it.

Couple things I've personally noticed in these threads (which I absolutly love by the way )

1) - Why is it people always try to bring in Rifter Coalition based tech an abilities to try to help out when they have no other recourse?

2) - Why is it that everyone just assumes the Coalition would instinctively "know" what the creature can be hurt by ? (i.e. Psionic's) You all present for your individual psionical attack's yet you guys failed to show anyone how the Coalition attained the knowledge with which to employ that Psionic power . Especially since the CS is known for just straight up throwing vast wave's of troops at its problems .. rather then trying to actually think them threw ..

[Athos]

Just curious how the CS would respond in your games.

Two scenarios:
1. A humanoid, possibly super powered that is super strong, super fast, does not eat/breathe, and is immune to all damage that isn't magical/psychic.

2. Same as #1 except it is much bigger than humanoid, like a creature that is the size of a tank, semi-truck and trailer, etc.

In either case it is in CS territory, has destroyed a couple patrols and is heading in the direction of a major CS base, but taking it's time about it.

I don't recall this being addressed in the various sourcebooks, but maybe it has been.

I keep my PCs and NPCs equal. If something is fair game for one, then it is fair game for the other. I would never, ever allow a PC to play a creature immune to virtually everything, so I would not put such a creature into my game as an NPC. So, in my game this scenario would never occur.

But... in Rifts, if you were going to allow something like this to exist, I would say the CS would put a price of 5 million credits on its head and let someone else worry about how to kill it. After all, what is the value of having money if you don't use it

[Nightmask]

Seems like there's some confusion as to the interpretation of Invulnerability, some seem to think it means 'Unstoppable' when it doesn't. The inability to injure someone does not mean they can't be stopped or defeated. It requires different tactics but is by no means impossible (although many seem to think so the Juggernaut's many defeats over the years are a good example that Invulnerable doesn't equal unbeatable).

A fairly human sized target can be restrained just by burying him in enough wreckage he can't find the leverage or strength to dig free. At a minimum it gives one time to plan or build a more sturdy prison to chuck the character into. Can always look into the Terminator solution as well, tossed into a container of molten MDC material so it quickly hardens around him making a very horrifying prison especially if all sensory awareness is cut off.

It's a bit more difficult for a larger humanoid but depending on the PS (and presumably it's Supernatural) there's still the chance of capturing and binding it with MD cables and simply hauling it off someplace like the ocean. Means of blinding it (even if you can't poke out its eyes you can always shroud them in something to get the same effect) will disorientate and make it easier to attack and in both cases the creature can still hear and even if you can't inflict direct damage extremely loud sounds can cause pain and disorientation.

[Killer Cyborg]

1) - Why is it people always try to bring in Rifter Coalition based tech an abilities to try to help out when they have no other recourse?

Because when there is no other recourse, there is no other recourse.

2) - Why is it that everyone just assumes the Coalition would instinctively "know" what the creature can be hurt by ? (i.e. Psionic's) You all present for your individual psionical attack's yet you guys failed to show anyone how the Coalition attained the knowledge with which to employ that Psionic power . Especially since the CS is known for just straight up throwing vast wave's of troops at its problems .. rather then trying to actually think them threw ..

Because it's safe to assume that the CS would throw everything they had at the problem until they could beat it, and one of the things they have quite a bit of is psychics.
And it's not like the CS is unaware that psychics are a powerful weapon against threats that normal technology can't seem to harm.

[Lenwen]

1) - Why is it people always try to bring in Rifter Coalition based tech an abilities to try to help out when they have no other recourse?

Because when there is no other recourse, there is no other recourse.

Gotcha .. so when they are in trouble .. toss in the non-canon stuff an pray its acceptable ..

2) - Why is it that everyone just assumes the Coalition would instinctively "know" what the creature can be hurt by ? (i.e. Psionic's) You all present for your individual psionical attack's yet you guys failed to show anyone how the Coalition attained the knowledge with which to employ that Psionic power . Especially since the CS is known for just straight up throwing vast wave's of troops at its problems .. rather then trying to actually think them threw ..

Because it's safe to assume that the CS would throw everything they had at the problem until they could beat it, and one of the things they have quite a bit of is psychics.
And it's not like the CS is unaware that psychics are a powerful weapon against threats that normal technology can't seem to harm.

The CS is not that smart .. everyone knows they will not just all of a sudden know how to fight this thing .. my question was designed for the other posters who always favor the CS no matter what how they come to the conclusion that the CS found out its weakness.

But if its easier to revert to non-canon material an just give the "Na-huh" concept of anything .. I guess so be it.

[The Beast]

...And it is Illogical since I could Cheat TEN TIMES WORSE by just combining:
APS: Water and Hyperdensity!!!...

So what does that power combo do anyway?

[LostOne]

...And it is Illogical since I could Cheat TEN TIMES WORSE by just combining:
APS: Water and Hyperdensity!!!...

So what does that power combo do anyway?

IIRC it lets you completely immobilize and suffocate someone, but only for a couple minutes. I think Hyperdensity has a short time limit.

[TechnoGothic]

vs Invulnerability ...

Particle Beams = 1/2 damage
Explosions = 1/2 damage
Psi-powers = Full damage
Magic = full damage
Supernatural PS = 1/2 damage

Not too invulnerable really...

[dark brandon]

It wouldn't need a battalion, just one or two mind melters or controllers.

"there are fates worse than death".

[Dr Megaverse]

TBH, the CS would probably do all of the above. They do indeed like to swarm their opponents under but they didn't stick around this long by being plain stupid. Limited yes, but not stupid. With that in mind I feel they'd do the following:

1.) Use conventional forces to engage initially and determine capabilities.
2.) Once the use of conventional weapons is discounted they would turn to their psychics
3.) Simultaneously undercover CS operatives start hiring magic and psionic mercs (from their point of view it's a win-win, the creature dies or the mercs die trying)
4.) I also feel they'd turn a blind eye to Vanguard help. The Vanguard are around for this kind of thing in particular, and I'm sure they'd be a potent help.

While constraining and incapacitating the creature is possible, it doesn't reflect the CS mindset to me. Locking up magic items in a vault is a little different than maintaining a supernatural prisoner where CS citizens might get hurt if it breaks out. No, the CS mindset is a "go for broke" kill on this thing, and with enough resources they most likely COULD kill it. Time is the critical issue.

[Mack]

While constraining and incapacitating the creature is possible, it doesn't reflect the CS mindset to me.

The CS would constrain just long enough to find a way to kill it. Kinda like how I might say "nice doggie" while looking for a big stick.

[Dr Megaverse]

While constraining and incapacitating the creature is possible, it doesn't reflect the CS mindset to me.

The CS would constrain just long enough to find a way to kill it. Kinda like how I might say "nice doggie" while looking for a big stick.

Haha, touche`!

[dark brandon]

While constraining and incapacitating the creature is possible, it doesn't reflect the CS mindset to me.

The CS would constrain just long enough to find a way to kill it. Kinda like how I might say "nice doggie" while looking for a big stick.

all else fails, throw it in the st. Louis rift and be done with it.

[Lenwen]

vs Invulnerability ...

Particle Beams = 1/2 damage
Explosions = 1/2 damage
Psi-powers = Full damage
Magic = full damage
Supernatural PS = 1/2 damage

Not too invulnerable really...

Their not talking about the "Rifts" version of Invulnarability ..

They are talking about Hero's unlimited version of Invulnarability ..

Lasers , other types of energy , bullets of all types , and explosions hurt .. but do not harm .. the character.