Solothurn's great "Standard E-clip" debate!

[Jefffar]

Interesting idea, but it's not bourne out anywhwere else in rifts but in your imagination.

[Jefffar]

Which is interesting . . .

But how come NPCs are ever listed as having 4 laser clips and 6 ion clips?

How come you never see a treasure haul including 1D6+4 laser clips and 1D4+2 plasma clips?

[Jefffar]

Or maybe nobody else thinks their should be any differentation between an e-clip for a laser weapon, an ion weapon, a particle beam weapon or a plsama weapon.

So what about vibroblades? Do their e-clips contain vibro-energy? And the nerual mace, what about it's e-clips?

[Jefffar]

But, it woul be simplier (from a logistics point of view if nothing else) to have that same electrical power source which you show works for 2 different types of weapons allready to work for other types of weapons.

If I was a millitary leader, and I had the chocie of trying to produce and distribute 4 different types of e-clips just to keep my basic infantry weapons in operating condition, or make my energy weapons all use the same type of eclip to produce their different results I would go with 1 type of e-clip. That way I could produce more, distribute them more easily and my soldiers in the field could swap e-clips as needed.

Modern militaries work in a similar way. If you've noticed, most tend to focus on certain standardized calibres for maximum interchangibility. For example, an American infantry fire team, despite haveing 4 different primary weapons, each weapon with a slightly different role, can use the same 30 round clip of 5.56 mm rifle ammunition in each of those weapons.

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

Which is interesting . . .

But how come NPCs are ever listed as having 4 laser clips and 6 ion clips?

How come you never see a treasure haul including 1D6+4 laser clips and 1D4+2 plasma clips?

Its easier to just type "e-clips" or "standard e-clips". Also for editing reasons. It saves space and time.

That sounds like a bit of a cop out to me. I seriously doubt that space and time for a couple of words, is even considered, especially with Palladium's tendancy to copy and paste.

[Joey Jo Jo Jr]

But, it woul be simplier (from a logistics point of view if nothing else) to have that same electrical power source which you show works for 2 different types of weapons allready to work for other types of weapons.

If I was a millitary leader, and I had the chocie of trying to produce and distribute 4 different types of e-clips just to keep my basic infantry weapons in operating condition, or make my energy weapons all use the same type of eclip to produce their different results I would go with 1 type of e-clip. That way I could produce more, distribute them more easily and my soldiers in the field could swap e-clips as needed.

Modern militaries work in a similar way. If you've noticed, most tend to focus on certain standardized calibres for maximum interchangibility. For example, an American infantry fire team, despite haveing 4 different primary weapons, each weapon with a slightly different role, can use the same 30 round clip of 5.56 mm rifle ammunition in each of those weapons.

But just because you find it inconvenient, doesn't mean you can just ignore particle physics. Yes it would be more convenient to have just one type of e-clip to power your soldier rifles, but did you think that maybe if that where so then you would be giving your enemy the benefit to be able to interchange their weapons and e-clips with yours? I don't see how that would then be convenient.

If they are interchangable it counters any benefit OR detriment, because you both have the same (dis)advantage

[vitae_drinker]

Which is interesting . . .

But how come NPCs are ever listed as having 4 laser clips and 6 ion clips?

How come you never see a treasure haul including 1D6+4 laser clips and 1D4+2 plasma clips?

Its easier to just type "e-clips" or "standard e-clips". Also for editing reasons. It saves space and time.

That sounds like a bit of a cop out to me. I seriously doubt that space and time for a couple of words, is even considered, especially with Palladium's tendancy to copy and paste.

Think about it. All the different types of tech that can be described all different type of ways. Some general some more specific. When you use that type of reasoning to do that, as a writer you would try to...well.. standardized explanations conveniently for the reasons I've already stated. Also copy and paste would also be a way to defend my point of view, because doing such a thing to lead some conflicts in interpretation but then exacerbated by making it make sense, but then out of context from what the text usually is in the other book. You can see now where the problem lies in PB's tendency to be self contradicting.

So you're saying it's Palladium's fault that you're wrong?

[The Beast]

Personally, I have YET to see any indication that (with the obvious exceptions such as the CET Cartriges, certain laser tool cells, etc) e-clips are NOT "universal."

I do remember seeing a coulpe descriptions that said some don't work with others without some sort of adapter. I would limit this to each region of the world (ie: North America, Europe, Naruni, ect).

[Thinyser]

Interesting idea, but it's not bourne out anywhwere else in rifts but in your imagination.

Correct.

[Thinyser]

This thread has reached its endpoint. Farewell and adieu.

[Thinyser]

This thread has reached its endpoint. Farewell and adieu.

oops ruined your luck. ahh too bad.

Does ANYBODY understand this post?!?!?!?

also to Solothurn: You have a strange nack for saying "i'm done with this" then coming back to post pointless jibberish such as this... do you feel this pattern of behavior in some way makes you better than those who know you to be wrong, or change the fact that you are wrong?

[Thinyser]

This thread has reached its endpoint. Farewell and adieu.

oops ruined your luck. ahh too bad.

Does ANYBODY understand this post?!?!?!?

also to Solothurn: You have a strange nack for saying "i'm done with this" then coming back to post pointless jibberish such as this... do you feel this pattern of behavior in some way makes you better than those who know you to be wrong, or change the fact that you are wrong?

He just wants the last word?

I'm glad somebody else sees this too. Do you understand what his last post means?

[The Beast]

This thread has reached its endpoint. Farewell and adieu.

oops ruined your luck. ahh too bad.

Does ANYBODY understand this post?!?!?!?

also to Solothurn: You have a strange nack for saying "i'm done with this" then coming back to post pointless jibberish such as this... do you feel this pattern of behavior in some way makes you better than those who know you to be wrong, or change the fact that you are wrong?

He just wants the last word?

I'm glad somebody else sees this too. Do you understand what his last post means?

Uh, he just wants the last word?

[vitae_drinker]

This thread has reached its endpoint. Farewell and adieu.

oops ruined your luck. ahh too bad.

Does ANYBODY understand this post?!?!?!?

also to Solothurn: You have a strange nack for saying "i'm done with this" then coming back to post pointless jibberish such as this... do you feel this pattern of behavior in some way makes you better than those who know you to be wrong, or change the fact that you are wrong?

He just wants the last word?

I'm glad somebody else sees this too. Do you understand what his last post means?

Uh, he just wants the last word?

Well, he PM'd me last night with this...

From: Solothurn
To: vitae_drinker
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:10 pm
Subject: ahem

Making yourself the last poster doesn't make you right.
As for me confessing I'm wrong? PM Killer Cyborg and ask him if I, Solothurn, would ever do so. Grow up.

To which I replied...

From: vitae_drinker
To: Solothurn
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:31 pm
Subject: Re: ahem

Solothurn wrote:

Making yourself the last poster doesn't make you right.
As for me confessing I'm wrong? PM Killer Cyborg and ask him if I, Solothurn, would ever do so. Grow up.

Arguing with you is about like arguing with my buddie's kids.

Pointless, because you can't get over the idea that you just MIGHT be wrong.

As for telling me to grow up...



You just made my night.

And here I thought I had been rather mature about him being wrong, and didn't resort to name calling or anything...

[vitae_drinker]

You kept using the broken record method of "admit your wrong and end this pointless debate" routine as a repeated over and over again reply. Now you know why I gave you the advice I did. Also you didn't dissect my alternate understandings of the quotes as well as others to show me how I was wrong to interpret the way I did, which no one else did either. Which shows failure, then capped off with this "you just can't admit your wrong" routine. To be frank, at least Killer Cyborg would of done so a little better then you folks who disagree with me. Not that I am implying anything to KC concerning this subject matter.
Reread my reply posts to the quotes you posted and my intrepretations of what a standard e-clip coupled with the type of weapon it is and use them to prove how Im wrong or not, but please non of this. "You just can't accept your wrong bit" by just saying that without actuall reasons.

Heres a quote to help. Tell me how I am wrong about what I put in this post that is in the quote below.

Lets say I have two laser rifles and two ion rifles.
Lets say each rifle is different then their counterpart within their respective pair.
The e-clips in each pair are considered "standard"
I could exchange the "standard" e-clips of each of the laser rifles with each other but not with the ionic rifles and then vice verse with the ion rifles.
Each pair has a "standard e-clip" that is interchangeable with there respective counterparts as long as they are based on the same medium(laser,ion,etc.)

How do I know that? Because the weapon types are stated as being different mediums which automatically states my interpretation. I also don't see how this conflicts with the quotes that have been posted.

GMG, pg. 11:

E-Clip: Traditional automatic weapons have an ammo-clip. A cartridge that holds bullets and is slapped into the weapon to supply its ammunition. An "E-Clip" is the equivalent for energy weapons like laser guns, ion blasters, particle beam rifles, and plasma ejectors, among others. Instead of feeding the weapon bullets, an E-Clip is effectively a powerful battery that feeds the weapon energy to fire X number of energy blasts. Typically, the more powerful the blast (i.e. the more damage it inflicts) the fewer shots are available from that weapon.

How is this unclear? Seriously, it directly contradicts your reasoning. An e-clip is basically a battery, not a tank of plasma/ions/particles/the Great Pumpkin.

I'm flabbergasted frankly, especially after some of the last couple of PM's you've sent.

[vitae_drinker]

cont'...

Pm's like this:

From: Solothurn
To: vitae_drinker
Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:37 pm
Subject: Re: lol
vitae_drinker wrote:

{edited for personal information content}

Frankly, dude (I'm assuming you're male), you're funny. It's great! I provide a quote that directly contradicts you:

Quote:
GMG, pg 11:
E-Clip:
Traditional automatic weapons have an ammo-clip. A cartridge that holds bullets and is slapped into the weapon to supply its ammunition. An "E-Clip" is the equivalent for energy weapons like laser guns, ion blasters, particle beam rifles, and plasma ejectors, among others. Instead of feeding the weapon bullets, an E-Clip is effectively a powerful battery that feeds the weapon energy to fire X number of energy blasts.


...and yet you continue to argue! Do you not really see how that shows you how you were wrong? Can you honestly not understand it or something? I find that hard to believe, so I'll have to believe that it's just sheer stubbornness. Seriously, make your argument then show that quote to a friend or family member and ask them who is right. I would almost bet money that they wouldn't agree with you in an honest debate.

{edited for personal content}

Oh, bye-the-bye

LOL
Laugh Out Loud


First off age is irrelevent. What relevent is the subject matter at hand. This quote:

Quote:
Traditional automatic weapons have an ammo-clip. A cartridge that holds bullets and is slapped into the weapon to supply its ammunition. An "E-Clip" is the equivalent for energy weapons like laser guns, ion blasters, particle beam rifles, and plasma ejectors, among others. Instead of feeding the weapon bullets, [i]an E-Clip is effectively a powerful battery that feeds the weapon energy to fire X number of energy blasts.


"Energy" is used like a pronoun. Like him, her, it.
Your claiming the word "energy" is a specific noun. Like Mr. John Doe.
Two different things. Your interpretation is wrong.
The "E-clip" is being cross conceptualized with and normal clip only it has the anagrammatic letter "E" to signify that it only goes with energy type weapons as a general meaning. Again your wrong in assuming otherwise.
Its says "instead of feeding the weapons bullets"....while then stating that the e-clip feeds an energy weapon energy.
You don't realise that you can't just take a clip on a AK-47 and put it in an MP5, and the same goes for taking an e-clip from a laser weapon and putting it into a ion weapon. NOTHING in that quote states that it can, so you have to go with common sense.
Your also not seeing the the e-clip is just being used as a "equivalent" in comparison.

Therefore I am right in assuming the a e-clip(being only a general term) is something that is a component to an energy weapon, and not being stated as a component that is one type of design that goes to all energy weapons. The
Quote:
weapons like laser guns, ion blasters, particle beam rifles, and plasma ejectors, among others.
part is only there to tell the reader examples of what an energy weapon is.

[vitae_drinker]

The

weapons like laser guns, ion blasters, particle beam rifles, and plasma ejectors, among others.

part is only there to tell the reader examples of what an energy weapon is.
I have been saying this all along.

Actually, I seem to remember you talking about a plasma storage tank, ion storage cell, etc...

From the first page:

What about a Plasma weapon e-clip? The cartridge would have concentrated plasma fuel.

So, no, you haven't been saying that all along.

So in other words there is no single design type e-clip that is universaly interchangeable with all energy weapons. There are single universally desigined e-clips that are interchangeable, but with laser to laser, ion to ion, etc..

Ok. Where does it say this?

Besides, I thought you were 'done with this debate'.

[vitae_drinker]

The

weapons like laser guns, ion blasters, particle beam rifles, and plasma ejectors, among others.

part is only there to tell the reader examples of what an energy weapon is.
I have been saying this all along.

Actually, I seem to remember you talking about a plasma storage tank, ion storage cell, etc...

So, no, you haven't been saying that all along.

So in other words there is no single design type e-clip that is universaly interchangeable with all energy weapons. There are single universally desigined e-clips that are interchangeable, but with laser to laser, ion to ion, etc..

Ok. Where does it say this?

Besides, I thought you were 'done with this debate'.

Actually, I seem to remember you talking about a plasma storage tank, ion storage cell, etc...

So, no, you haven't been saying that all along.

How is that not the same to what I have been saying all along?

Um...?

Huh? Could you please provide the WHOLE quote when replying...it tends to help, thanks.

OK. Where does it say this?

I just explained it to you! Please don't start a circle argument.

Sorry, I guess I should be more explicit. Where does it EXPLICITY STATE IN THE BOOKS THAT AN E-CLIP FROM A LASER RIFLE CAN NOT GO INTO ANY OTHER ENERGY WEAPON?

Besides, I thought you were 'done with this debate'.

That's getting old, and posters where continuously posting libalistic comments over and over after I stopped in an attempt to make a bad reputation of me in general in a petty attempt to discredit me. Therefore I had to defend myself regardless of my original intent.

What's getting old? You leaving and then coming back? Us disagreeing with you? 93% of the people answering the poll disagreeing with you?

People using critical thinking and logic to respond to you?

[Drakenred®™©]

ok this has gotten to the point where it needs to be locked.

[Kalinda]

ok this has gotten to the point where it needs to be locked.

Agreed.

[vitae_drinker]

Yeah, I tend to agree. This thread is getting weird, and the Cyborg in cities debate is getting bled onto from this as well.

[Drakenred®™©]

ok

1) your trying to apply real world science to a Fantasy game writen by someone who thinks that a nuke has a blast radius of 50 ft and an M-1 Abrams is an SDC structure and that a burst of 100 7.62 caliber ammo traveling with a muzle velocity slower than that of a 120mm Rhinemetal smoothbore will do more damage than a APDS round fired by a 200mm high velocity gun at out to almost twice the range of the 200mm high velocity APDS round.

theirfor Eclips will power everthing from hair dryers to Gravity guns because the conversion system is going to be built into the rifle.

2) Trying to apply anything remotly resembling real life physics to this game will give you a migrain.

[Kalinda]

ok

1) your trying to apply real world science to a Fantasy game writen by someone who thinks that a nuke has a blast radius of 50 ft and an M-1 Abrams is an SDC structure and that a burst of 100 7.62 caliber ammo traveling with a muzle velocity slower than that of a 120mm Rhinemetal smoothbore will do more damage than a APDS round fired by a 200mm high velocity gun at out to almost twice the range of the 200mm high velocity APDS round.

theirfor Eclips will power everthing from hair dryers to Gravity guns because the conversion system is going to be built into the rifle.

2) Trying to apply anything remotly resembling real life physics to this game will give you a migrain.

Agreed.

It's a game, there are going to be things that have to be simplified or glossed over in order to make it fun and playable.

[Natalya]

Tempers have gotten too heated and the flame-baiting has gotten out of hand.

This thread has been locked for violating the Message Board Rules. It violates Rule #2 Flaming/Harrassment. Any posts attempting to reopen this subject will be summarily removed with no explanation. If you have a problem with how this post was handled please direct all inquires to deific.nmi@gmail.com, including the url to the post in question.

Please read the Palladium Board Rules.