normal speed faster than Extraordinary speed power

[Guest]

Heck, if you're lenient with the wording of the Alter Metabolism Power, you can do better.

"As many as 4 Metabolism Altering Abilities can be used at One time, All Bonuses, and Penalties are Cumulative."

Speed Boost gives X3 Speed.

Say, speed 22x3=66x3=196x3=588x3=1764 Spd.

Thats well over Mach 1, close to Mach 2.

Of course, you'd pretty much pass out from all the Penalties afterwards.

[MADMANMIKE]

I am muddling over character concepts and came upon this speed issue.

Lets say you start with max speed attribute (30), then you get the running skill (max 16), then you become a sybiotic super human with the benifit of increased speed (max of 36 to speed). Now your powers are alter limbs, super-bounce (which gives a bonus max of 36 on speed), lightning reflexes (gives a max of 8 speed). Thats 126 normal speed to start with, thats like 75-80 mph. THen you change your legs to tires with an engine and get a speed modifier of x6..............thats 756, about 500 mph! ....................................... Originally I think I was going to ask if that much speed would give you the equivelint of the extraordinary speed power. That was before I added the lightning reflexes while writing this

..I'd say you're stacking too much here, but at any rate, once you use the bonus from symbiotic superhuman, you're no longer using normal speed, you're using super speed, just not that specifically from the power Super Speed.

-Mike >8]

[Gomen_Nagai]

I'm going to have to disagree with Fidel's Mao- Mike, l.. just remember characters without super speed powers are going to be hurt by Friction
and wind Resistance.

[Warpig]

the bonuses from all the skills/stats/powers specifically for running, arent those for running? ...Not applied when turning yourself into a super bouncing, wheel-footed, engine man?

[MADMANMIKE]

the rest modify your speed attribute so they all apply.

..I disagree. They modify the base attribute when in use; The bouncing attribute bonus creates a separate speed attribute for use when bouncing. The Alter limbs attribute bonus is for altered limbs, not bouncing and vice versa, so there's no logical reason to stack them. Basically you're just creating a character with multiple max speeds depending on his choice of locomotion.

-Mike >8]

[sinestus]

ok,
if BOUNCE enhances your running,
but you turn into wheels...
you're NOT RUNNING anymore

[Sir_Spirit]

I will have to agree with Shadow here so far.
The Super Bounce power specifically gives you a bonus to your regular Spd attribute AND a seperate speed for bouncing.

Though I think he should give the Symbiote XO PP rather than Lightning Reflexs(gives a max bonus of 12 to speed).

[sinestus]

yes, but the logic (as it would appear to me) is that because you are extra bouncy, you can run faster...
like that old "miracle mile" track

and when you take away the action which benifits from a little extra bounce in your step....

anyways...

if you wanna represent the lollipop guild, then so be it... nothing i can do to stop you in the end,...

tho... for a normal person to reach their top speed it takes some time, same with stopping,
whereas most superspeed (super power) guys don't seem to have too much trouble going from 0-max and vice versa in an instant.

[Nekira Sudacne]

you'd be faster, but you still wouldn't have the power Ex. Speed specific bonuses.

[Sir_Spirit]

I am muddling over character concepts and came upon this speed issue.

Lets say you start with max speed attribute (30), then you get the running skill (max 16), then you become a sybiotic super human with the benifit of increased speed (max of 36 to speed). Now your powers are alter limbs, super-bounce (which gives a bonus max of 36 on speed), lightning reflexes (gives a max of 8 speed). Thats 126 normal speed to start with, thats like 75-80 mph. THen you change your legs to tires with an engine and get a speed modifier of x6..............thats 756, about 500 mph! ....................................... Originally I think I was going to ask if that much speed would give you the equivelint of the extraordinary speed power. That was before I added the lightning reflexes while writing this

30+16+36+36+8=
[30+(16+8)]+36+36=
(30+24)+36+36=
(54+36)+36=
90+36=
100+26
126x20=2520 meters per minute
2520x3.25=8190 feet per minute
You can run over a mile per minute.
8190x60=491,400 feet per hour
491,400
5,128
Hmm, according ot my calculations that's about 95-96MPH.
x6=
595MPH
Let's add in EO PP
30+16+36+36+8+12=
[30+(16+8)]+36+36+12=
(30+24)+36+36+12=
(54+36)+36+12=
90+36+12=
100+26+12=
100+38=
138x20=2760 meters per minute
2760x3.25=8970 feet per minute
8970x60=538,200 feet per hour
538,200
5128
105MPH(roughly)
105x6=
630MPH
Hmm still not fast enough.....

Try this,
get rid of Lightnign Reflex's and change category from symbiote to Mystically bestowed,
30+16+36+12=
[30+(16+12)]+36=
(30+28)+36=
(58+36)=
(50+30)+(8+6)=
80+14=
94x5=
470x20=9400 meters per minute
9400x3.25=30550 feet per minute
30550x60=1,833,000 feet per hour
1,833,000
5128
357MPH roughly!
x6=
2,145MPH!

[KillWatch]

With Sonic Speed and X Spd I go in incriments
Sonic Speed gets mach 1 per level
XSpd gets 50 mph per level

[Sentinel]

I had always added all SPD attribute modifiers together, since SPD really only influenced running speed: it didn't provide any bonuses to Combat (dodge, although it used to).
Thus, a character with a base speed of 24 would add that to the Speed of EXT Speed (I forget what 220 M.P.H. is but it's somewhere around 250). Thus, each speedster character could be slightly faster (or slower) than another. Then, any power like Blur (2X Speed for short periods), or Enhanced Speed (Super Soldier modification which triples speed) would be factored in as needed.
I had once previously allowed a player to select Sonic Speed twice but only add in the bonuses once (all he really wanted was the extra speed anyway).
Now, I am less inclined to take a speed power multiple times, in favor of combining different powers.

[KillWatch]

I give Spd/10 as a ISPD bonus

[znbrtn]

go with eugenics. you'll get the wierdest looking eight-legged, hoofed creature you could ever think of, but his spd attribute(every part is made with the spd attribute. no fudging whatsoever, other than always taking the highest possible value) will max out at 1,968. i believe you can go even faster if you get the alien eugenics option, because you can then be from a high gravity world, which doubles or triples(i don't remember which) your spd attribute.

[Sir_Spirit]

I wouldn't allow bouncing to combine with wheeled movement rates.

Just ot bel clear, no one has doen that hear.
Bouncing clearly state sthat your NORMAL speed gets a bonus, and then gives a you a different speed for movement by bouncing.

[Sir_Spirit]

the only bonus a character with a large speed attribute should get is the listed +4 dam for every 20 MPH. howerver, I think that without the actual power, they should take ½ of that bonus in damage.

Speedsters already take damage from high speed attacks.

[Sentinel]

I allow Speedsters to attempt to roll with P/F/I in order to reduce the damage: otherwise many of them would kill themselves executing their best attack, and I want to DIS-courage players from building Invulnerable Speedsters if possible.
I would however, recommend looking into Hardened Skin, Impact Reisitance, and Enhanced Durability as alternatives to keep the damage down to something managable.
In the example of the character taking 252 Points from his own ramming attack, that would kill or cripple most characters I have. Only the MegaHero speedsters or those with APS and Invulnerability powers could sustain that, and I wouldn't want every speedster to be a juggernaut/brick.

Another alternative which I justr remembered was to have some sort of crash armour or padding built into the costume.
Speedsters: make friends with an Analytical Genius or a Vehicle Expert.

[KillWatch]

I simply rule that if they miss (vie parry or low roll) or they roll a 1 they take damage, otherwise you would also have give damage for every hand to hand attack. I assume that the speedster is tough and gets that addex SDC to compensate for the would be damage from intended impacts.

[Sentinel]

Sentinel wrote:

I want to IDS-courage players from building Invulnerable Speedsters if possible.
I would however, recommend looking into Hardened Skin, Impact Reisitance, and Enhanced Durability as alternatives to keep the damage down to something managable.

How about any speed power plus create force constructs just create a force trapazoid or a giant limb in front of you as you run.

Something about the way you think makes me want to scream...
something obscene.

Did you hear me?

[Sir_Spirit]

Sentinel wrote:

I want to IDS-courage players from building Invulnerable Speedsters if possible.
I would however, recommend looking into Hardened Skin, Impact Reisitance, and Enhanced Durability as alternatives to keep the damage down to something managable.

How about any speed power plus create force constructs just create a force trapazoid or a giant limb in front of you as you run.

Something about the way you think makes me want to scream...
something obscene.

Did you hear me?

Why waste a major power when you can take Power Channeling for the same effect instead.

[Sentinel]

thats not invulnerable. You can still be hit and if you don't have a high PE you won't have alot of force SDC.

I suppose so.
The trick now is to try to keep an eye on PE bonus whoring.

[Sir_Spirit]

wrote:

Why waste a major power when you can take Power Channeling for the same effect instead

I'm not sure how that is the same effect, I guess you mean with the body block.tackle attack right?

If you don't want to take damage from hitting a foe at high speed then you can take PC instead of invulnerability.

[The Beast]

I am muddling over character concepts and came upon this speed issue.

Lets say you start with max speed attribute (30), then you get the running skill (max 16), then you become a sybiotic super human with the benifit of increased speed (max of 36 to speed). Now your powers are alter limbs, super-bounce (which gives a bonus max of 36 on speed), lightning reflexes (gives a max of 8 speed). Thats 126 normal speed to start with, thats like 75-80 mph. THen you change your legs to tires with an engine and get a speed modifier of x6..............thats 756, about 500 mph! ....................................... Originally I think I was going to ask if that much speed would give you the equivelint of the extraordinary speed power. That was before I added the lightning reflexes while writing this

And if you throw in Vibration, it'll triple your speed. Speaking of which, if you have that and Sonic Flight, does your top speed when flying reach Mach 3?

[Sentinel]

I don't believe that speed multipliers effect speed powers

Since the speed attribute is purely ones' running speed, I see no reason to disallow it.
In one passage in the HU II Main Book, (pg 16: Speed), it satates that SPD

"Indicates the the rate of speed at which the character can run (or fly)".

Having a separate Speed is no sensible than having a character have "regular" PS differ from his Supernatural PS.
Just add up all the numbers for one attribute score.

[Sentinel]

There are some specific modifiers that state they cannot affect super-speed powers. Other than those, I recall reading that EXT Spd can't be combined with Sonic Running (much like EXT PS cannot be added to Supernatural PS), but not all modifiers.

[Gomen_Nagai]

Alien, Natural Powers, High Grav World.

Sonic Speed
Gravity Manipulation
Vibration.

Mach 1 X3
Mach 3 X3
Mach 9 X2
Mach 18...running.

Of course, your feet would spontaneously combust, and you would quickly be hobbling around on stumps...but it's neat to think about.

the Vibration would counter the friction.. but you'd be losing APM like crazy maintaining 3 powers at once..

[Sir_Spirit]

Alien, Natural Powers, High Grav World.

Sonic Speed
Gravity Manipulation
Vibration.

Mach 1 X3
Mach 3 X3
Mach 9 X2
Mach 18...running.

Of course, your feet would spontaneously combust, and you would quickly be hobbling around on stumps...but it's neat to think about.

the Vibration would counter the friction.. but you'd be losing APM like crazy maintaining 3 powers at once..

ACtually the only power you would have to "maintain" (if even that) would be gravity manipulation.

Though every speed increase/decrease and turn(redirection) would take an action.

[Gomen_Nagai]

he would need to use the Vibrate to become intangible or Risk exploding in atmosphere.

[Sentinel]

Presumably, any speedster is immune to the friction and other effects caused by super-speed movement: this is an advantage super-beings have over vehicles.
Thus, they are never in jeopardy from using their own powers.

[Sentinel]

Unless they specifically say they are in jeopardy from using thier powers.

I remember one character from teh Hellions in Marvel who every time he used his power he slowly destroyed himself.

Yeah, Jetstream.
He was also a partial cyborg, and definitely an anomaly.
Quicksilver, Makkari, Super-Sabre, Whizzer/Speed Demon, Whizzer (Squadron Supreme), Whizzer (Golden Age), Thunderbolt, Black Racer, and Mongoose were all immune to the effects of their own high speed running.

[Gomen_Nagai]

the problem is that the super speed is being augmented, it's not meant to handle the higher powers, and really, even smog at past mach 5 speeds will hurt like a brick wall... and you'd be a running fireball.

[Sir_Spirit]

the problem is that the super speed is being augmented, it's not meant to handle the higher powers...

Oh, Yes it is.

[Sentinel]

Indeed.
Flash (both Jay Garrick and Barry Allen) ran for years at supersonic and ultrasonic speeds with no ill effects from their own powers.

[The Beast]

I have a question. If some mutant power combinations create insane running speeds (in this case), why do some of you say that even though the combinations could allow it, the player needs to do this or that or some other thing that implies you don't feel the player's body could handle it? Would the powers help in this regard?

[Gomen_Nagai]

when Characters like the flash and so on moved around at the speed of light they did so by ceasing to interact with normal reality and by entering the Speed force, thus allowing them to Disperse through objects at will without as much as a scratch.


You certainly don't see the flash doing any light speed ramming attacks because he's not invincible and would explode.


and in DC there's a certain speed you have to reach before reaching the speed force...

[Sir_Spirit]

when Characters like the flash and so on moved around at the speed of light they did so by ceasing to interact with normal reality and by entering the Speed force, thus allowing them to Disperse through objects at will without as much as a scratch.

NOpe.

You certainly don't see the flash doing any light speed ramming attacks because he's not invincible and would explode.

Actually you do. Well, he doesn't hit lthings at light speed because they would not survive and he isn't that sort of hero.

and in DC there's a certain speed you have to reach before reaching the speed force...

Yeah Ultimate speed. Though I've also heard people say light speed.
Depends on whose writing.

[Sentinel]

when Characters like the flash and so on moved around at the speed of light they did so by ceasing to interact with normal reality and by entering the Speed force, thus allowing them to Disperse through objects at will without as much as a scratch.

And that is how writers currently choose to explain it, which is fine.
The creators of the original Flashes did not explain it this way, and I lend a certain amount of credence to the creators.

You certainly don't see the flash doing any light speed ramming attacks because he's not invincible and would explode.

He's also not a killer.

[Gomen_Nagai]

actually plenty of old characters could survive Light speed attacks, Doomsday, Dark Seid, etc eetc. Super speed in DC Universe involves molecular dispersion, Period.

[Sentinel]

It's not how Johnny Quick, Professor Zoom (I), or super-speeding Kryptonians or Daxamites move.

Most of Flashs' opponents weren't of the calibre of Darkseid or Doomsday: Flash was far more likely to fighting Pied Piper, Captain Cold, Heatwave, Mr. Alchemy, Trickster, or Captain Boomerang.

[Gomen_Nagai]

actually according to the current DC timeline, All Speedsters tap into the speed force. you can reach into the speed force at several levels of speed, You do NOT need to be able to move at light speed for that to happen.

Also, Johnny Quick Has gone into the speed force before, in old storylines.

[Sir_Spirit]

actually according to the current DC timeline, All Speedsters tap into the speed force. you can reach into the speed force at several levels of speed, You do NOT need to be able to move at light speed for that to happen.

Also, Johnny Quick Has gone into the speed force before, in old storylines.

As has the Flash and another guy.

They did so by speeding up as I mentioned(and I can quote pages from DC's Official Ecyclopedia if I have to..).
And Since I have the latest encyclopedia for DC I can tell you that "molecular dispersion" has nothing to do with how speedsters move with some AuthoritAy!

ANd Zoom Most certainly does NOT "tap into the speed force" his power works by his moving along in his own time and he can't vibrate himself AT ALL. Muchless disperse his molecules.

More importantly the Flash(All of them!) has been long know to have a "frictionless aura" that also protects him from inertia and air resistance and so forth.

[Sentinel]

And, Kryptonians and Daxamites (when under a yellow sun), as well as Ultra Boy, Captain Marvel, Black Adam (and the rest of the Marvel Family), and Peter Cannon: Thunderbolt did not tap the speed force for their super-speed abilities.

[Overlord Rikonius]

They did so by speeding up as I mentioned(and I can quote pages from DC's Official Ecyclopedia if I have to..).
And Since I have the latest encyclopedia for DC I can tell you that "molecular dispersion" has nothing to do with how speedsters move with some AuthoritAy!

The Authority doesn't have a super speedster, do they?

[Sentinel]

Although it is possible for expert users of the speed force to drain the speed from the above mentioned...

Case in point Jay Garrick drained Black Adam's speed to travel through time and return to the present day.

Maybe they access the speed force without being aware of it, or possibly everything in motion is to some degree linked to the speed force.

I remember that JSA story, and believe it or not, I actually like the concept of the Speed Force.
But, it nust be acknowledged as what it is: retroactive continuity. Prior to the existence of the Speed Force, speedsters moved at super sonic speeds and faster. Some continue to this day.

[Gomen_Nagai]

The speed force is a living entity that connects time and space. Masters of the speed force can move forward and backward and time and through space.

Speedsters of inappropriate willpower will be overwhelmed by the speed force and forever stuck to move at infinite speed.

and sorry, ALL speedsters use the speed force. It's only entities like the flash that have mastered it. That's just the way it is.

[Sir_Spirit]

{snip}

Just ignore everything he said.
The Speed force is not a living entity.
It IS a dimension of pure velocity.
It interacts with ANYthing moving which is how Jay(the first Flash) drained Black Adams speed.
While Speedster's can get pulled into the speed force, it has nothing to do with their willpower.

[Overlord Rikonius]

{snip}

Just ignore everything he said.
The Speed force is not a living entity.
It IS a dimension of pure velocity.
It interacts with ANYthing moving which is how Jay(the first Flash) drained Black Adams speed.
While Speedster's can get pulled into the speed force, it has nothing to do with their willpower.

so which attribute do they use for the saving throw?

[Sentinel]

The speed force is a living entity that connects time and space. Masters of the speed force can move forward and backward and time and through space.

Read the DC Novel Stop Motion, featuring the Flash. It has an excellent explanation of the Speed Force, and entities that dwell within it. The JLA Novels follow canon DC continuity (as they should), so there are no inconsistencies.

Daxamites and Kryptonian under a yellow sun do not use the speed force: they are solely muscle driven.

[Sir_Spirit]

The speed force is a living entity that connects time and space. Masters of the speed force can move forward and backward and time and through space.

Read the DC Novel Stop Motion, featuring the Flash. It has an excellent explanation of the Speed Force, and entities that dwell within it. The JLA Novels follow canon DC continuity (as they should), so there are no inconsistencies.

Daxamites and Kryptonian under a yellow sun do not use the speed force: they are solely muscle driven.

Thank you for sanity.

[Sir_Spirit]

so which attribute do they use for the saving throw?

The comic book charcter's don't make one.
IF there are RPG charcters it wouldn't matter, because if they had to make a savings throw, then they wouldn't be part of comics continuity, and thus wouldn't matter.