A thought/question...

[MDGiest]

It just occured to me that there something I havent seen mentioned on here, although I may have missed it. The Southern Cross and REF mecha ALL are laser resistant so that they only take 1/2 damage from laser weapons. Now, the book specifically says "A new developement in armor is a laser resistant ceramic which is used to coat all new mecha" (pg 62 Southern Cross). Ok, so lets take the VHT here to Rifts earth...Im cruisin along, and a UAR-1 picks a fight and gets in a couple good hits, and I take 75 MDC of damage. So I roll into the next hi-tech town with a robot mechanics shop to get repairs. Now, Im thinking that the likely hood of them having this ceramic is nill. So, I get it patched up with the run-of-the-mill armor used on Rifts earth...meaning there are sections of my mecha that are not laser resistant anymore!!! What the heck do you do then? Any ideas out there? I figure there is the possibility that a large advanced company (Triax, maybe Northern Gun...Wilks perhaps with their knowledge of lasers) could study the stuff and eventually (lots of long months at least) recreate the stuff. <shrug> Any ideas on this at all?

[jedi078]

It mentions in Conversion Book One (4th printing page 36). That yes some arms companies can disect your mecha and maybe after 4D6 months of research produce it, but even then it may not even be possible.

But in your case you could give them a portion of your VHTs armor plating, in order to attempt to duplicate the technology.

A better option would be to replace the VHT armor with that of a Glitter Boy (or something else) since the armor on that sucker is laser resistant too.

[Grand Paladin]

All ASC mecha and body armor is laser resistant.

HOWEVER.

Only REF CVR-3 is laser resistant. That's it. No other REF mecha has the laser resistant coating that ASC employs.

[Zer0 Kay]

Now here is another aspect to consider. RT laser resistant armor is so because of ceramics not because of high reflectivity. So even if the opponent has a VFL rifle it won't matter. The ceramic is dissipating heat not reflecting all but a few frequencies of light so replacing it with Chromium would actually be downgrading the laser resistance, increasing weight and MDC. You could just repair the MDC with chromium instead of using the same thickness plates but you wouldn't get any gain out of it.

[Grand Paladin]

And as far as your repair issue is concerned... I'd go with reducing the overall laser resistant armor plating on the repaired mecha by 10% or so every time that VHT is repaired using 'native' resources.

[MDGiest]

All ASC mecha and body armor is laser resistant.

HOWEVER.

Only REF CVR-3 is laser resistant. That's it. No other REF mecha has the laser resistant coating that ASC employs.

Isnt that what I said?

[Grand Paladin]

All ASC mecha and body armor is laser resistant.

HOWEVER.

Only REF CVR-3 is laser resistant. That's it. No other REF mecha has the laser resistant coating that ASC employs.

Isnt that what I said?

Uh, nope.

It just occured to me that there something I havent seen mentioned on here, although I may have missed it. The Southern Cross and REF mecha ALL are laser resistant so that they only take 1/2 damage from laser weapons.

[jedi078]

Now here is another aspect to consider. RT laser resistant armor is so because of ceramics not because of high reflectivity. So even if the opponent has a VFL rifle it won't matter. The ceramic is dissipating heat not reflecting all but a few frequencies of light so replacing it with Chromium would actually be downgrading the laser resistance, increasing weight and MDC. You could just repair the MDC with chromium instead of using the same thickness plates but you wouldn't get any gain out of it.

Good point so going through with having the VHT orginal armor is still a great idea

[Drakenred®™©]

Just a small detail

when the original CB-1 has you uparmoring the mecha

that means your striping off your obsolete armor and replacing it with new improved more damage resistant armor

so why would anyone on rifts earth want to study a armor that is not as good as what they have now?

[Tiree]

trying to adhere to realism is the death of any good game. Rules are rules because they add game balance, not because they are realistic.

If the VFL rifle says it defeats laser resistant armor, it does. I dont care of its ceramic or not.

Nit-picking things apart like that just makes the game worse, not better.

The reason why I do not let the VFL work against Robotech Laser Resistant Armor is just what Drakenred said. In the original CB-1 upgrading to Rifts meant you were utilizing Riftechnology - it may be stronger and advanced in some ways, but it does have a drawback. While Robotechnology Armor is weaker in some ways, it still has an advantage. This gives the player the choice - up the armor, lose some bennies. Or keep the armor, keep the bennies, but lose the possibility of better protection.

And Nit-Picking is sometimes how you get to solve a crisis. Finding the loopholes sometimes explains why things are the way things are. It is just the facts of life.

[Jefffar]

Since when isn't the REF mecha Laser Resistant? They do use the VHT after all.

[Adam of the Old Kingdom]

It mentions in Conversion Book One (4th printing page 36). That yes some arms companies can disect your mecha and maybe after 4D6 months of research produce it, but even then it may not even be possible.

But in your case you could give them a portion of your VHTs armor plating, in order to attempt to duplicate the technology.

A better option would be to replace the VHT armor with that of a Glitter Boy (or something else) since the armor on that sucker is laser resistant too.

I would go with the 4d6 if the company already had a similar product. like if the company already worked with ceramics. otherwise I would tripple it, or even more.
spectography may tell them whats in it but it does not tell them how to make it and how to form it and how to make it into armour.

[MDGiest]

Since when isn't the REF mecha Laser Resistant? They do use the VHT after all.

I agree with you Jeffar...I was under the impression that all mecha from 2nd generation onward had the laser resistant armor. Why would they JUST put it on a suti of body armor and NOT the mecha? Makes no sense.

[Lt. Holmes]

Since when isn't the REF mecha Laser Resistant? They do use the VHT after all.

The VHT and the CVR-3 are the only items in the REF arsenal that are laser-resistant.

I suspect that the REF mecha was fully designed by the mid-2010s and that the laser-resistant barrier wasn't broken until much later on. By the time it was made, the designed were locked-in and it would've been too expensive and time-consuming to change them.

[rem1093]

i don't see why the REF wouldn't use the ceramic. The way it reads you could think of it as a spray like the bonded shell from knight rider. not that it would have helped against the invid they use plasma weapons not lasers.
as for rifts everybody would want it. think laser resistent armor on anything and without the chrome look, it would sell big time.

[Lt. Holmes]

i don't see why the REF wouldn't use the ceramic. The way it reads you could think of it as a spray like the bonded shell from knight rider. not that it would have helped against the invid they use plasma weapons not lasers.
as for rifts everybody would want it. think laser resistent armor on anything and without the chrome look, it would sell big time.

Not really. It's much more complicated than a spray gun and a soluble liquid. It would be a ceramic all the way through, not just a layer on top of the metal plating. Changing skins like that would force the total redesign of the flying mecha (all that different weight would throw off the design calculations), as well as the ground mecha (balance issues alone would screw things up).

And yeah, the Rifts people would want the ceramic like no tomorrow. All the damage resistance, plus almost totally negating the value of a variable-frequency rifle, and being considerably lighter than chrome.

[Zer0 Kay]

Now here is another aspect to consider. RT laser resistant armor is so because of ceramics not because of high reflectivity. So even if the opponent has a VFL rifle it won't matter. The ceramic is dissipating heat not reflecting all but a few frequencies of light so replacing it with Chromium would actually be downgrading the laser resistance, increasing weight and MDC. You could just repair the MDC with chromium instead of using the same thickness plates but you wouldn't get any gain out of it.

trying to adhere to realism is the death of any good game. Rules are rules because they add game balance, not because they are realistic.

If the VFL rifle says it defeats laser resistant armor, it does. I dont care of its ceramic or not.

Nit-picking things apart like that just makes the game worse, not better.

I am sticking to rules. RT rules. The armor is resistant to all laser attacks. If an alien race can't figure out how to do VFL that could penitrate it then why would human ones be able to.

[Zer0 Kay]

trying to adhere to realism is the death of any good game. Rules are rules because they add game balance, not because they are realistic.

If the VFL rifle says it defeats laser resistant armor, it does. I dont care of its ceramic or not.

Nit-picking things apart like that just makes the game worse, not better.

The reason why I do not let the VFL work against Robotech Laser Resistant Armor is just what Drakenred said. In the original CB-1 upgrading to Rifts meant you were utilizing Riftechnology - it may be stronger and advanced in some ways, but it does have a drawback. While Robotechnology Armor is weaker in some ways, it still has an advantage. This gives the player the choice - up the armor, lose some bennies. Or keep the armor, keep the bennies, but lose the possibility of better protection.

And Nit-Picking is sometimes how you get to solve a crisis. Finding the loopholes sometimes explains why things are the way things are. It is just the facts of life.

Drakenred didn't say that Drakenred said the antithesis to that..."Just a small detail

when the original CB-1 has you uparmoring the mecha

that means your striping off your obsolete armor and replacing it with new improved more damage resistant armor

so why would anyone on rifts earth want to study a armor that is not as good as what they have now?"

I said what your saying.

[Zer0 Kay]

Since when isn't the REF mecha Laser Resistant? They do use the VHT after all.

I agree with you Jeffar...I was under the impression that all mecha from 2nd generation onward had the laser resistant armor. Why would they JUST put it on a suti of body armor and NOT the mecha? Makes no sense.

Uh... because they forgot how to... ow don't hit the devils lawyer.

[Zer0 Kay]

Now here is another aspect to consider. RT laser resistant armor is so because of ceramics not because of high reflectivity. So even if the opponent has a VFL rifle it won't matter. The ceramic is dissipating heat not reflecting all but a few frequencies of light so replacing it with Chromium would actually be downgrading the laser resistance, increasing weight and MDC. You could just repair the MDC with chromium instead of using the same thickness plates but you wouldn't get any gain out of it.

trying to adhere to realism is the death of any good game. Rules are rules because they add game balance, not because they are realistic.

If the VFL rifle says it defeats laser resistant armor, it does. I dont care of its ceramic or not.

Nit-picking things apart like that just makes the game worse, not better.

I am sticking to rules. RT rules. The armor is resistant to all laser attacks. If an alien race can't figure out how to do VFL that could penitrate it then why would human ones be able to.

the problem with your logic is that you're thinking someone is importing a VFL weapon into RT, where the RT rules would take precedence. This thread was started on the premise that you're taking RT material into Rifts. Rifts takes precedence. VFL weapons dont say "defeats all laser resistant armor OTHER than ceramic armor". They just work.

If it were the other way around.... sure bringing a VFL weapon into a primarily RT world means they dont work... you're playing RT with this one other thing, not Rifts with this one other thing ( if that makes sense ).

As to why the super-duper aliens cant defeat the ceramic armor and the humans from Rifts can... thats pretty simple.

Rifts tech is centuries ahead of RT tech. CS grunts carry weapons and armor that are light years ahead of anything in RT universe - dont even get me started on Power Armor or Robos vs RT mecha.

I'd agree if this was in one of the many Rift Forum, What RT Mecha would you bring over to Rifts type threads but since this is in a RT Forum, What RT Mecha would you bring over to Rifts type threads.

Besides it's not necessarily RL it's common sense. Changing the freq of light just allows it to be absorbed rather than REFLECTED. So if an armor doesn't work by reflection... .

[Jefffar]

Where does it say the REF Mecha isn't Laser Resistant though?

[Zer0 Kay]

Where does it say the REF Mecha isn't Laser Resistant though?

Is that a question for me? I always thought they were.

[jedi078]

Besides it's not necessarily RL it's common sense. Changing the freq of light just allows it to be absorbed rather than REFLECTED. So if an armor doesn't work by reflection... .

"If armor does not work by reflection....." is what I go by with too.

Besides a good GM uses same set of rules and interpetations for both his Robotech and Rifts games. Using two sets just confuses the players

[jedi078]

Where does it say the REF Mecha isn't Laser Resistant though?

It doesn't, all it does state that CVR-3 is laser resistant.


So the GM can take it either way.

[Jefffar]

General plea.

As for the way the LR works (ablative armour rather than reflective) theoretically, that can be expanded so other energy weapons are affected too if you really like.

[Lt. Holmes]

Where does it say the REF Mecha isn't Laser Resistant though?

It doesn't, all it does state that CVR-3 is laser resistant.


So the GM can take it either way.

When the armour and mecha are laser resistant, it says so in the description, specifically mentioning that "laser weapons do only half damage." If that line doesn't exist in the description, then the mecha isn't laser resistant.

Only the CVR-3 and VHT read as such.

[jedi078]

Reflective laser resistant armor and Ablative laser resistant armor are two different animals.

It’s like saying the surface of an apple and orange are the same color.
This said reflective laser resistant armor reflects the energy of lasers of a particular wave length away from the armor, this can be defeated by using Variable Frequency Lasers (VFL), you change the frequency and then you can defeat the laser reflective properties of the armor.

Now, Ablative laser resistant armor defeats laser by dissipating the energy impact of the laser over a larger area of the armor. Basically the armor takes the heat generated from the laser (and possible any other type of energy based weapon) and conducts it to adjacent areas of the armor that was hit, in this way the damage incurred by the laser is lessened

Below is a definition of Ablative armor from the Wikipedia Free Encyclopedia:


Ablative armor is armor designed to negate damage by itself being damaged or destroyed. The idea is most commonly encountered in science fiction, as this type of armor would be most effective versus electromagnetic energy emissions and particle beams.
Ablative armor would undergo a state change on weapon impact, perhaps vaporising, or disintegrating to a fine powder. This state change should be endothermic, as the effectiveness of ablative armor, like all armor, depends on its ability to absorb incoming weapon energy.
Secondary benefits of ablative armor versus beam weapons would be that outwardly expelled armor debris might serve to disrupt the coherence of incoming beams. This could be enhanced by the incorporation of reflective components to the armor material.
Ablative armor is distinct from the concept of reactive armor, which uses a sandwich layer of explosives to disrupt the thrust of armor piercing munitions, and is actually in common use in modern armored vehicles.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablative_armor"

[Pox]

As far as gameplay goes, could you give the repaired mecha an AR rating on a 20-sided die

above AR: hits non-laser resistant (full damage)
below AR: hits laser-resistant (1/2 damage)

and have the number lowered every time you go in for repairs til eventually the laser armor will eventually and slowly be replaced because of lack of parts.

just a thought.

[Lt. Holmes]

I agree that whatever the mecha is, RT laser reistance operates on a totally different principle than Rifts laser resistance.

Therefore, VFL rifles shouldn't have any effect on RT armour. What might be done is allow the rifle to adjust to the armour, but it takes four times as long and the damage is only three-quarters full damage instead of full damage.

[Pox]

I know this is about damage and laser resistant armor and I am not sure if this fits in the subject but this is something that kinda sticks at me.

Is the laser resistance in the armor affect targetting lasers of weapons and missiles?

just curious on everyone's thoughts.

[Lt. Holmes]

Is the laser resistance in the armor affect targetting lasers of weapons and missiles?

just curious on everyone's thoughts.

Perhaps only with the ultra-chromed armour of the GB. Not the ASC/CVR-3 technology. That wouldn't reflect the beam at all.

[Zer0 Kay]

I agree that whatever the mecha is, RT laser reistance operates on a totally different principle than Rifts laser resistance.

Therefore, VFL rifles shouldn't have any effect on RT armour. What might be done is allow the rifle to adjust to the armour, but it takes four times as long and the damage is only three-quarters full damage instead of full damage.

I prefer the it ALWAYS takes half damage from lasers.

[Zer0 Kay]

Is the laser resistance in the armor affect targetting lasers of weapons and missiles?

just curious on everyone's thoughts.

Perhaps only with the ultra-chromed armour of the GB. Not the ASC/CVR-3 technology. That wouldn't reflect the beam at all.

It may reflect the beam but there will still be a point on the armor that the laser is sriking so unless the reflected beam is striking another surface, and not reflected into space, then the laser guided munitions won't be confused about multiple points.

[Zer0 Kay]

Reflective laser resistant armor and Ablative laser resistant armor are two different animals.

It’s like saying the surface of an apple and orange are the same color.
This said reflective laser resistant armor reflects the energy of lasers of a particular wave length away from the armor, this can be defeated by using Variable Frequency Lasers (VFL), you change the frequency and then you can defeat the laser reflective properties of the armor.

Now, Ablative laser resistant armor defeats laser by dissipating the energy impact of the laser over a larger area of the armor. Basically the armor takes the heat generated from the laser (and possible any other type of energy based weapon) and conducts it to adjacent areas of the armor that was hit, in this way the damage incurred by the laser is lessened

Below is a definition of Ablative armor from the Wikipedia Free Encyclopedia:


Ablative armor is armor designed to negate damage by itself being damaged or destroyed. The idea is most commonly encountered in science fiction, as this type of armor would be most effective versus electromagnetic energy emissions and particle beams.
Ablative armor would undergo a state change on weapon impact, perhaps vaporising, or disintegrating to a fine powder. This state change should be endothermic, as the effectiveness of ablative armor, like all armor, depends on its ability to absorb incoming weapon energy.
Secondary benefits of ablative armor versus beam weapons would be that outwardly expelled armor debris might serve to disrupt the coherence of incoming beams. This could be enhanced by the incorporation of reflective components to the armor material.
Ablative armor is distinct from the concept of reactive armor, which uses a sandwich layer of explosives to disrupt the thrust of armor piercing munitions, and is actually in common use in modern armored vehicles.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablative_armor"

Ablative wouldn't work against Particle Beams only weapons that produce damage by heat. So plasma and lasers do 1/2, ion does 3/4 damage as most of the damage is electricity.

[Zer0 Kay]

Reflective laser resistant armor and Ablative laser resistant armor are two different animals.

It’s like saying the surface of an apple and orange are the same color.
This said reflective laser resistant armor reflects the energy of lasers of a particular wave length away from the armor, this can be defeated by using Variable Frequency Lasers (VFL), you change the frequency and then you can defeat the laser reflective properties of the armor.

Now, Ablative laser resistant armor defeats laser by dissipating the energy impact of the laser over a larger area of the armor. Basically the armor takes the heat generated from the laser (and possible any other type of energy based weapon) and conducts it to adjacent areas of the armor that was hit, in this way the damage incurred by the laser is lessened

Below is a definition of Ablative armor from the Wikipedia Free Encyclopedia:


Ablative armor is armor designed to negate damage by itself being damaged or destroyed. The idea is most commonly encountered in science fiction, as this type of armor would be most effective versus electromagnetic energy emissions and particle beams.
Ablative armor would undergo a state change on weapon impact, perhaps vaporising, or disintegrating to a fine powder. This state change should be endothermic, as the effectiveness of ablative armor, like all armor, depends on its ability to absorb incoming weapon energy.
Secondary benefits of ablative armor versus beam weapons would be that outwardly expelled armor debris might serve to disrupt the coherence of incoming beams. This could be enhanced by the incorporation of reflective components to the armor material.
Ablative armor is distinct from the concept of reactive armor, which uses a sandwich layer of explosives to disrupt the thrust of armor piercing munitions, and is actually in common use in modern armored vehicles.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablative_armor"

Ablative wouldn't work against Particle Beams only weapons that produce damage by heat. So plasma and lasers do 1/2, ion does 3/4 damage as most of the damage is electricity.

Considering Particle Beam weapons are fiction, if the literature says ablative armor which is also mostly fiction absorbs it, I'd say it does.

EDIT: also the reason electrical energy causes damage is the heat conduction produces. The electricity itself is essentially harmless to nonliving things/non computerised things, it is the biproduct heat that damages objects like the armor of a mech.

Uh well Particle Beams AREN'T fiction. Again that is all a collider is or rather a PB is just a collider. Oh and NO laser resistant armor says it takes half damage (or any reduction) from particle beams.

And how many thing in Rifts aren't computerized that are non-living? Electricity will always take the shortest path to ground and if that happens to be through the armor and across the circuits, instead of down the outside of the armor then guess what. Who says the damage from an Ion pistol/lightgning gun is just being applied to the outside of the said area? Sure it's not doing that much to the armor but, just like everyones momma says, it's what's inside that counts.