Needing Mecha help...

Whether it is a Veritech or a Valkyrie, Robotech or Macross II, Earth is in danger eitherway. Grab your mecha and fight the good fight.

Moderators: Immortals, Supreme Beings, Old Ones

User avatar
The Artist Formerly
Champion
Posts: 2279
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 2:01 am
Comment: Time Magazine's person of the year, 2006.
Location: High in the Tower of Yellow, Swanky town.

Unread post by The Artist Formerly »

Dairugger XV wrote: *snip* runs off a nuclear engine that will last for years (though supposedly has enough Protoculture to initiate the man-machine symbiosis), and its radar and radio are greatly increased.*snip*


The VHT used the same kind of hybrid Protoculture engine as the Veritech Fighter. However, late in the war the ASC ran out of 'culture and had to switch over to nuclear only engines. Most of the talking heads around here, including this one, agree that if your mecha uses Nuclear only power, then it's bonuses and stats should be reduced to reflect that. Fussion are heavier and less robust or potent then their Protoculturesque contemporaries. I posted an article on some of my ideas in a thread called "Nuklear...er Nuclear power."

Black Market cost varies with the market, so they aren't listed in any of the books, you just kind of have to make that stuff up.

Destroid Flight systems come in the form of a jet pack that straps on to all but the MAC series IIRC, that only work in space, with a top speed mach one.
When I look in the dictionary and see the word Cool...I see Taffy's picture...-Shady Slug
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power. -Abraham Lincoln
Pro Munchy

Unread post by Pro Munchy »

Well, if i'm not mistaken they do say what EBSIS would pay for a fully intacted Veritech fighter jet "100 million". So the Black Market would be similar cost.
User avatar
Pox
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 386
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:00 pm
Location: Island Kingdom of Montreal
Contact:

Unread post by Pox »

Just to throw my two cents in on manufacturing times.

If you look at the timeline in the RDF manual (I know we were looking at REF stuff but work with me) on pg. 24-25 (3rd printing) and compare with the standard beginning compliment of mecha of the SDF-1 in the Main book.

Mass production of the Veritech began in November 2007 and were unveiled at the Christening in July 2009. So that is 308 in 21 months (14 2/3 a month)

It stats that mass production of destroids began in May 2007 and then the "Complement of Destroids are placed on the SDF-1" in June 2009. So according to the main book that is 212 mecha in 2 years and one month. That breaks down to roughly 8 ½ destroids a month.

I dont know if that helps, but I'm bored so take it or leave it.
we forgive you pox - Lord Cherico
You mah main Damie, Pox - el magico -- darklorddc
User avatar
glitterboy2098
Rifts® Trivia Master
Posts: 13319
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Location: Missouri
Contact:

Unread post by glitterboy2098 »

Pox wrote:Just to throw my two cents in on manufacturing times.

If you look at the timeline in the RDF manual (I know we were looking at REF stuff but work with me) on pg. 24-25 (3rd printing) and compare with the standard beginning compliment of mecha of the SDF-1 in the Main book.

Mass production of the Veritech began in November 2007 and were unveiled at the Christening in July 2009. So that is 308 in 21 months (14 2/3 a month)

It stats that mass production of destroids began in May 2007 and then the "Complement of Destroids are placed on the SDF-1" in June 2009. So according to the main book that is 212 mecha in 2 years and one month. That breaks down to roughly 8 ½ destroids a month.

I dont know if that helps, but I'm bored so take it or leave it.



and its possible that the production was higher than that, since thats merely what was delivered to macross island. we can't be sure how many more where sent to alaska base and other important locations during that time.
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website
User avatar
Pox
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 386
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:00 pm
Location: Island Kingdom of Montreal
Contact:

Unread post by Pox »

glitterboy2098 wrote:
Pox wrote:Just to throw my two cents in on manufacturing times.

If you look at the timeline in the RDF manual (I know we were looking at REF stuff but work with me) on pg. 24-25 (3rd printing) and compare with the standard beginning compliment of mecha of the SDF-1 in the Main book.

Mass production of the Veritech began in November 2007 and were unveiled at the Christening in July 2009. So that is 308 in 21 months (14 2/3 a month)

It stats that mass production of destroids began in May 2007 and then the "Complement of Destroids are placed on the SDF-1" in June 2009. So according to the main book that is 212 mecha in 2 years and one month. That breaks down to roughly 8 ½ destroids a month.

I dont know if that helps, but I'm bored so take it or leave it.



and its possible that the production was higher than that, since thats merely what was delivered to macross island. we can't be sure how many more where sent to alaska base and other important locations during that time.


I was going to factor in the compliment of Destroids/Veritechs on the Carriers but I figured that the SDF-1 would get them first before any others due to the PR. The rest of the world and bases would have to defend themselves with Adventurer IIs, Sea Sergeants, and DK / Tornado Tanks :lol: :lol: :lol:
we forgive you pox - Lord Cherico
You mah main Damie, Pox - el magico -- darklorddc
User avatar
Comrade Corsarius
Hero
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 2:01 am
Location: The bridge of the Sky Ship "Zephyr"

Unread post by Comrade Corsarius »

Pro Munchy wrote:Well, if i'm not mistaken they do say what EBSIS would pay for a fully intacted Veritech fighter jet "100 million". So the Black Market would be similar cost.


And the defecting pilot was rewarded with all his credits in gold as he requested.

Unfortunately he suffered a terrible automobile accident in Kursk only a scarce month after his defection and our Heroic Soviet doctors were not able to save him.

He bequeathed all of his worldly goods, and all his unspent (90 million) gold back to the EBSIS with his will ending "Long Live the Heroic Soviet!"

A true comrade in arms. 2nd Lieutenant Kemp was buried with full military honours as a Hero of the EBSIS.
I'd get up in the morning and watch the sun rise over the yardarm of my sky-ship as the sails billowed in the breeze and the land slid by 300-odd metres below. I'd grasp the mahogany ship's wheel, turn her nose a few points back onto the line, and feel pity for all those poor bastards below who have to work for a living. - My idea of the good life in Rifts.

Steampunk SAMAS finally built!
Cyclone
Explorer
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2000 1:01 am
Location: Queensland, Australia
Contact:

Unread post by Cyclone »

Tetsuya wrote:10 million what? Dollars? Credits? Electronic cash that you cant spend without raising flags in the government controlled "bank" that keeps track of the electronic "money"?. Try and think this through, will you?

And in the Sentinels... WHAT Black Market? the Black Market of Planet Thingamabob in the junkyard nebula? the REF is the only force out there, with the Sentinels, who have free access to the REF gear. If a soldier, say, stole an Alpha, where exactly is he going to take it? How is he going to sell it, and to whom? Where is the buyer going to hide it? Onboard the vessel he is stationed on? Did you pause at all to think this through? There is no black market in the Sentinels campaign - there is no consistent world, no civilians to run it, nothing.. just a fleet of military vessels comprising the Pioneer mission that are all controlled by the same people.

And if we are talking about Invid-invasion era earth.. again.. 10 million what? there is no global government.. all trade is just that: trade and barter. How much is that Alpha worth? have any 'culture to trade?

So, how is this fictional Black Market operating? Where is it from? How does it hide?

Just what exactly are we talking about here?


Considering the 10 million example, what book folks did a quick flick thru and couldn't find it, directly referenced the EBSIS willing to pay that much, I'm assuming late Macross Saga/Early Robotech Masters which does have a degree of stability so literal money, RDF/UEG credits or a equal value in EBSIS script, could be used. Or more likely in equipment.

And Robotech doesn't have anything approaching Rift style credit cards, TG as I consider them incredibly impossible unles they have this mysterious telephone network to link up all the EFTPOS terminals, so paper money is harder to track, or even better go for gold.
Image
User avatar
Rabid Southern Cross Fan
Champion
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 9:17 pm
Location: Monument City, UEF HQ
Contact:

Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

As for cost in production for the various UEF mecha post-Macross....there is the Factory Satellite and its attendant Factories like Space Station Liberty. RevPrez, myself and a few others have discussed this sort of topic at Rt.com before but there is little economic data available in the Robotech Tv series (the only example I can think of is the dress that cost Dana 360+ credits in Danger Zone).

Figure that the UEG probably rented the factory spaces on Space Station Liberty (and the Factory Satellite) to military-industrial companies. In exchange for that, the companies would rehabilitate the factories and retool them to build Earth mecha and so forth. The UEG would be able to give them the absolute MOUNTAIN of materiel that they had captured from the Factory (and even the remains of the Zentraedi Fleet). So in all likelihood, the UEF got mecha and ships at a relatively reduced cost.

How much that would be is anyone's guess.
User avatar
Jefffar
Supreme Being
Posts: 8579
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
Comment: Being a moderator doesn't mean I speak for Palladium Books. It just makes me the lifeguard at their pool.
Location: Unreality
Contact:

Unread post by Jefffar »

I think black market cost should be "NO NEGOTIABLE CASH VALUE: SUPREME FAVOUR ONLY" and availability should be "NIL" for most of the big mechs and "Extremely RARE" for the Cyclones.

Face it, nobody is going to jsut sell one of these babies if they get their hands on it. They'd have to be desperate or stupid to part with these things for any sum of money. Only a nation like the EBSIS could actually put up enough cash to make it worth it.

Of course, that's assuming you want a fully operational, factory spec moddel. Repairs and retrofits ("Yeah I know she's got a few miles on her, and I had to replace the PBC-11 with a 90 mm recoiless rifle, but she's got it where it counts.") will be the onlything reasonably available.
Official Hero of the Megaverse

Dead Boy wrote:All hail Jefffar... King of the Mods

Co-Holder with Ice Dragon of the "Lando Calrissian" award for Smooth. - Novastar

Palladium Forums of the Megaverse Rules

If you need to contact Palladium Books for any reason, click here.
User avatar
Comrade Corsarius
Hero
Posts: 1116
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 2:01 am
Location: The bridge of the Sky Ship "Zephyr"

Unread post by Comrade Corsarius »

Tetsuya wrote:REF Mecha simply couldnt possibly be on the Black Market.. in the era's that they exist - there is no black market (the Pioneer Mission) or the Black Market doesnt deal in money and working mecha (Invid Invasion era Earth).


I agree to a point. I'd say that the 'black market' (there seems to be quite a few on Robotech Earth, such as the Silver Swift, and the Soviet-dominated one) would NOT be dealing in credits, thus my own spin that it was in Gold. I think that your dislike of Andy is blinding you to his possible argument (and you know that I often share your opinion here)

Remeber, though, that there is some market still for working mecha in even the Invid Invasion world. At least in SE Asia for the Mecha-Su-Dai tournaments, which appear quite well organised.

Also, I wouldn't put it past some enterprising stage 5 Invid to organise a 'protoculture buyback' scheme to take mecha from the hands of the humans.
I'd get up in the morning and watch the sun rise over the yardarm of my sky-ship as the sails billowed in the breeze and the land slid by 300-odd metres below. I'd grasp the mahogany ship's wheel, turn her nose a few points back onto the line, and feel pity for all those poor bastards below who have to work for a living. - My idea of the good life in Rifts.

Steampunk SAMAS finally built!
User avatar
Pox
Dungeon Crawler
Posts: 386
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:00 pm
Location: Island Kingdom of Montreal
Contact:

Unread post by Pox »

Lt Col Andy Reddson wrote:In other words, 8 ½ month seems a little long to me. Probably half that, with many many more having been devilered elsewhere.)


It seems a bit long, because that isnt what I said. I said that (by my calculations with listed stuff) that they got out 8 ½ destroids a month NOT 8½ months for one destroid.

You might want to look at book 6: RotM at the Mecha Su-Dai section for ideas on how a Robotech world Black Market (post Invid) MIGHT run.

just an idea.
we forgive you pox - Lord Cherico
You mah main Damie, Pox - el magico -- darklorddc
User avatar
Jefffar
Supreme Being
Posts: 8579
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
Comment: Being a moderator doesn't mean I speak for Palladium Books. It just makes me the lifeguard at their pool.
Location: Unreality
Contact:

Unread post by Jefffar »

Lt Col Andy Reddson wrote:Jefffar thinks nobody is going to sell their Mecha; They'd have to be desperate or stupid. But this does not factor in people who steal Mecha JUST to sell them. (People boost cars for that all the time, even though they don't have drivers licences.) There's ALWAYS a black market for anything you really want to get, if your pockets are deep enough. Mecha, in general, is probably the HIGHEST end of the black market your average merc could get their hands on, and merc likely would be the ONLY ones able to get their hands on it. (Other than high-tech bandits who just scrouge it from wrecks, that is.)


Okay then tell me how many people boost M-1A2s and AH-64Ds to sell on the black market?

We are talking a very expensive item, witha very, very limited clientele. Yeah if you got a mech for sale, you can name your price, but in realistic terms, who's going to be able to afford any price worth more than what having a useable mecha might be worth to you?

I still stand by that anybody who is going to sell a mecha, at an affordable price for your so called average merc, is going to be desperate or stupid. A mecha is a prime piece of power, and power is worh more than money.

A fully functional mecha would typically only be exchanged for something money can't buy.
Official Hero of the Megaverse

Dead Boy wrote:All hail Jefffar... King of the Mods

Co-Holder with Ice Dragon of the "Lando Calrissian" award for Smooth. - Novastar

Palladium Forums of the Megaverse Rules

If you need to contact Palladium Books for any reason, click here.
User avatar
Rabid Southern Cross Fan
Champion
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu May 08, 2003 9:17 pm
Location: Monument City, UEF HQ
Contact:

Unread post by Rabid Southern Cross Fan »

They probably were paid, and paid well, to manufacture the Mecha, and received space on the factory satellitte for free; Part of the contract.


Thats possible. I think, though, that the UEG would have the companies do the rehabilitation of the Factories (as well as dispersal of some of the automated lines and so forth to the colonies on Mars, Jupiter and elsewhere...maybe 10% of the total output of the Factory Satellite). That would save the UEG tons of money and time.

As for the black market.....

The Tv series shows that more than just the United Earth Forces proper had access to mecha. A Tomahawk that is seen blown in half in New Denver has US Army markings. Member states of the UEG could probably have mecha sold to them in an effort to build up reserves of troops (since member states probably had to commit manpower, money and materiel to the UEF ala the United Nations...but on a much greater basis than the current UN Charter allows).

Its not totally inconcievable that rogue states could end up with stolen mecha....its just improbable. More likely they would get the technical means of building mecha and access to Protoculture (especially post-Rain of Death) and begin building their own. Hacked up Battlepods with new legs, arms and micronized cockpits would be the most common mecha I would imagine. Old Destroids with different weapon systems are more likely (maybe left over from the end of the Anti-Unification War) than new models.

As for REF mecha...well...there could be some in the jungles of South America being field tested by the Army of the Southern Cross....probably the VF/B-5 Condor, VF-6 Alpha and VQ-6 Vandal Drone. How any of those would end up in the hands of black marketeers I don't know.
User avatar
Jefffar
Supreme Being
Posts: 8579
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2000 1:01 am
Comment: Being a moderator doesn't mean I speak for Palladium Books. It just makes me the lifeguard at their pool.
Location: Unreality
Contact:

Unread post by Jefffar »

Lt Col Andy Reddson wrote:
Jefffar wrote:Okay then tell me how many people boost M-1A2s and AH-64Ds to sell on the black market?


Not many. Then again, the biggest gun bust in history was ATF agents posing as Communist Chinese arms merchants. On the list: Tanks. (No, I'm not making this up. I wish I were.)

Jefffar wrote:We are talking a very expensive item, witha very, very limited clientele. Yeah if you got a mech for sale, you can name your price, but in realistic terms, who's going to be able to afford any price worth more than what having a useable mecha might be worth to you?


Drug lords, for one.



Again, in both of these cases, the buyers (or alleged buyers) are far from your previously mentioned average merc. We're talkign large organizations with significant bank rolls.
Official Hero of the Megaverse

Dead Boy wrote:All hail Jefffar... King of the Mods

Co-Holder with Ice Dragon of the "Lando Calrissian" award for Smooth. - Novastar

Palladium Forums of the Megaverse Rules

If you need to contact Palladium Books for any reason, click here.
Locked

Return to “Robotech® - The Shadow Chronicles® - Macross II®”