Gods, Are There More of Them?

[jtjr26]

I have been reading over various source material about various gods and pantheons in the megaverse. Virtually all of them are based on human mythology. In the three galaxies and the larger megaverse there are literally untold trillions of sentient beings from a multitude of species. Surely there are pantheons of gods that exist or manifested due the the shear numbers of beings believing in them. Just sticking with the three galaxies I envision noro, wolven, seljuk, silhouette and others each having their own spirituality and mythology that may have spawned some kind of higher power at some point.

Take the Silhouette for example. Their home world has a direct connection to a shadow dimension and shadow beasts come through from time to time. This is fact and not something that can be ignored or forgotten over time. There has to me some sort of mythology and according to established lore belief can manifest in something if there is enough of it. I picture an pantheon or even multiple pantheons of dark colored gods occupying this shadow realm in harmony or perhaps not with the various shadow elemental entities.

Just a few though on gods. What do you think?

Cheers

[taalismn]

I've created a few. In the EShemarrian thread I've hinted at the emergence, through belief, of EShemarrian goddesses born from magic and technology.

There's also the non-human gods featured in the PFRPG book 'Gardens of the Gods', though the Palladium World gods may be localized(a fun campaign idea might be the Palladiumite gods looking to expand their 'franchises' and followings off-world and dealing with such things as technological mass media, rival local gods, and alien intelligences staking out turf.

Cronus and Apsu are good examples of Alien Intelligences that could appeal to non-human beings(it's just that their pantheons are known mainly to humans because Humans are effectively the rats of the megaverse and are easily persuaded/recruited/harvested.

[Grazzik]

Gods change their appearance to match the expectations of their worshipers. So you can reuse the pantheons ... they just don't have to let the PCs know that behind the image they present is an old friend/nemesis. Such is their mystery.

Also the megaverse is so expansive that there may be millions of gods. So make up your own to meet the needs of your players. Get creative... Palloc, the Larmac god of couch potatoes that thwarts the efforts of do-good PCs who should instead be chillin' with a six-pack of psi-cola...

[taalismn]

Palloc, the Larmac god of couch potatoes that thwarts the efforts of do-good PCs who should instead be chillin' with a six-pack of psi-cola...

"The Tao of Sloth----Don't Sweat the Small Stuff...In fact, Don't Sweat ANY of the Stuff."


Hey, I have an alien race whose god apparently likes to randomly blow them up for stress relief and **** and giggles. That species would REALY like to have a few words with that god.
There's also a few alien gods of my creation in he Network Omni News threat(Blood God decides he wants to go Good....)

[Plane]

Gods change their appearance to match the expectations of their worshipers. So you can reuse the pantheons ... they just don't have to let the PCs know that behind the image they present is an old friend/nemesis. Such is their mystery.

yeah it's kinda the Galactus approach

and also, even if a lot of the gods aer based on our myths, in-universe that doesn't mean our myths created them - THEY created our myths, and may have done so in thousands of alternate dimensions

[taalismn]

and also, even if a lot of the gods aer based on our myths, in-universe that doesn't mean our myths created them - THEY created our myths, and may have done so in thousands of alternate dimensions

Worshippers simply embellish them or, in the worst cases, give the gods IDEAS.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Palladium's settings are pretty unabashedly human-centric. Given estimates are that 100% of Palladium customers are human, this is likely a marketing ploy to pander it's core demographic.

More seriously, I'm sure there *are* alien gods out there so if you want to stat them, knock yourself out.

But as was mentioned, it's established that Gods can appear as whatever race they want, so it's likely that at least some "Alien" pantheons are in fact the same deities by different names and avatars.

[taalismn]

So, don't ask a god to pull out their wallet and produce some photo ID...
You might be standing there for -eons- waiting to see a card that matches their appearance..

[Warshield73]

Palladium's settings are pretty unabashedly human-centric. Given estimates are that 100% of Palladium customers are human, this is likely a marketing ploy to pander it's core demographic.

Not sure about that. I have played in a few groups with chimps, or I am assuming they were chimps the way they were throwing their feces about.

More seriously, I'm sure there *are* alien gods out there so if you want to stat them, knock yourself out.

What I have found useful with Pantheons, Dragons and Gods and now Garden of the Gods is that it gives a template to follow for creating gods that feel like palladium.

You start with elders that are basically alien intelligences, then you get actual gods that look like the species in question. You can model your gods on a given one or mix and match between the different gods that represent the same thing. You can even have gods who are mythologically part of those pantheons but aren't in the books show up on distant worlds.

There are also a lot of story ideas that can be explored by giving these other groups their own pantheons separate from those of Earth. Example: What happened to the gods of the kreeghor when the splugorth conquered them? Are any still around now trying to usurp control from the Dweller? The gods of the Noro would probably be more focused on psionics than other pantheons and given what we see from the Seljuk what happened to their gods when they closed off magic on their world? In the three galaxies I think you would also see some groups worshipping elder races as opposed to true gods. You see a good example of this in Mass Effect with different species worshipping the Protheans, some without really understanding it.

I think having Earth pantheons can pop up on other worlds can be fun but if you want another world/dimension to feel alien, it would probably be more effective to create new pantheons.

But as was mentioned, it's established that Gods can appear as whatever race they want, so it's likely that at least some "Alien" pantheons are in fact the same deities by different names and avatars.

If you read the stories around the gods in Pantheons this absolutely appears to be the case. You can absolutely have Greek gods that look like Seljuk if you want, but I think you are more likely to find them around species that are closer to human, like Catyr. In fact we see this already with Amaterasu. We can't be sure that this is the same god worshipped by humans in Japan and the Oni of the Thundercloud but it seems likely.

Now while I think they might change their appearance for a given species I think they are likely to keep their symbols/icons and probably even their names. There is a lot of power around names when it comes to belief so you probably want all your believers to be channeling that power to the same address.

[Incriptus]

I think you got it backwards. I know it's popular for the "gods are creations of mortals" but [unless they changed something in books like Dragons & gods] that is not the case in Palladium. Most of them are explicitly dimensional travelers or Creations of Alien Intelligences, and even those that appear to be created on earth to interact with earthlings, they have spread to the greater mega-verse since the fall of Earth's magic level. While many of them are very human looking, there are still a good number that are only human in the sense of 2 arms 2 legs a head and a torso ... and still a few more that don't even do that [the more Alien Intelligence looking or Dragon looking ones]. So I think they'd be very disappointed in you if you referred to them as earth gods. . .

All that said, are there Gods [either creations of alien intelligences or dimensional travelers] that never made it to earth, almost certainly. There is also no problem with them looking like the natives of the planet they're currently hanging out on [or their native animals, like all our animal headed gods]. While they'd be empowered by the worship I would still avoid the trap of calling them creations of those cultures, those cultures were shaped by the gods.

[Warshield73]

The thing is that we know gods have limits to their ability to shape change and that they do have 'true' forms that are basically human. Most of them have to use magic like metamorphosis to shape change and the Norse god Hel has to go thro0ugh this massive ritual to change her form into a nonhumanoid so she can become the goddess of the Mechanoids. They clearly have limits just not sure what those are.

[taalismn]

Could be a matter of focus; maybe you can be amorphic, but. your powers are relatively weak and scattershot, because you have to devout some of your concentration to keep your energy/bodily integrity-
OR
-You can have a fixed form that you default to, that allows you to concentrate your power better and gives you the leeway to focus your energy/magic on other things, rather than just keeping yourself from spreading out all over the place and dissipating.

[Grazzik]

The thing is that we know gods have ... 'true' forms that are basically human.

Point of clarification... D&G pg 85 says under the Primal Manifestation section that...

While most gods take standard humanoid forms, ... there is no reason why a god can't manifest itself as a perfect sphere, or a pool of water, or anything else that the mind can imagine

A bipedal humanoid does not on the balance equate with human, as Kydians, In'Valians, Seljuk and Kreeghor are humanoid, though definitely not human.

Otherwise, agree with your comment.

[Warshield73]

Could be a matter of focus; maybe you can be amorphic, but. your powers are relatively weak and scattershot, because you have to devout some of your concentration to keep your energy/bodily integrity-
OR
-You can have a fixed form that you default to, that allows you to concentrate your power better and gives you the leeway to focus your energy/magic on other things, rather than just keeping yourself from spreading out all over the place and dissipating.

I think this approach would work for some gods but the information we have in the 3(?) relevant books of Garden of the Gods, Pantheons and especially Dragons and Gods seem to go a different way with it.

The thing is that we know gods have ... 'true' forms that are basically human.

Point of clarification... D&G pg 85 says under the Primal Manifestation section that...

While most gods take standard humanoid forms, ... there is no reason why a god can't manifest itself as a perfect sphere, or a pool of water, or anything else that the mind can imagine

A bipedal humanoid does not on the balance equate with human, as Kydians, In'Valians, Seljuk and Kreeghor are humanoid, though definitely not human.

Otherwise, agree with your comment.

The word "manifestation" though indicates some sort of shape changing. Zeus can manifest as a swan or shower of gold to get the ladies but he goes to his true form, that of a human, to make his many demi-god offspring. To me this is the real evidence of a human form, they can produce natural offspring with ordinary humans. Other supernatural beings cannot do this, at lest to my knowledge. I have seen no half-dragons or half-demons so I tend to think there is a genetic component to it.

I also like the idea of getting away from earth mythology and creating something more alien for other worlds and peoples. Using earth deities where it makes sense, like the Oni, sure but others something unique is better. Creating the gods for the noro or seljuk or silhouette would add some much needed depth to these groups. Even if you just copy paste the powers and stats from an earth god and apply it to a knew god with a different mythos and personality it would still make things more interesting.

IMO

[Plane]

The thing is that we know gods have ... 'true' forms that are basically human.

Point of clarification... D&G pg 85 says under the Primal Manifestation section that...

While most gods take standard humanoid forms, ... there is no reason why a god can't manifest itself as a perfect sphere, or a pool of water, or anything else that the mind can imagine

A bipedal humanoid does not on the balance equate with human, as Kydians, In'Valians, Seljuk and Kreeghor are humanoid, though definitely not human.

Otherwise, agree with your comment.

The word "manifestation" though indicates some sort of shape changing. Zeus can manifest as a swan or shower of gold to get the ladies but he goes to his true form, that of a human, to make his many demi-god offspring.

The actual 'true form' of gods is "nothing more than an organized batch of P.P.E."

The organization (basic physical form aka Primal Manifestation) is not a fixed thing because the deific power "Alter Primal Manifestation" on page 90-91 can change it.

It's incredibly cumbersome to use though, since it has a "Consumed" investment - Zeus likely isn't going to change his primal manifestaiton into a swan and reduce himself to 10% of his hitpoints for weeks just because he wants to boink Leto. Instead he'll use easier more accessible (but temporary and not primal) forms of shapeshifting to get the job done.

To me this is the real evidence of a human form, they can produce natural offspring with ordinary humans. Other supernatural beings cannot do this, at lest to my knowledge. I have seen no half-dragons or half-demons so I tend to think there is a genetic component to it.

I see it reasonable to assume that Zeus's current Primal Manifestation is human and he can only make demigods with other humans, yeah.

That doesn't mean his PM was ALWAYS human though, or that it must remain so.

If Zeus wants to alter his primary manifestation to dwarf and start impregnating dwarfess shortsstacks, he is fully capable of producing dwarven demigods. He just has to go through the process of using the APM power because it's not likely that metamorphosis magic is enough to accomplish that - otherwise you'd have dragons going around using Metamorphosis: Human to knock up Coalition States widows trying to relive Excalibur 1981 for the lulz.

Page 88's "Profound Fertilty" is very clear:
"with just about any other creature imaginable"
"Any character who accepts the love of a god is also risking having a child."

It doesn't get into the mechanics though - and to avoid issues like "hey Zeus just watched Sword in the Stone and impregnated ten thousand squirrels to create a demigod army" I believe the requirement of changing their Primal Manifestation to the race they're trying to reproduce with is a reasonable one...

That said, the issue of sex (male or female) is an interesting one...

>There are many tales of gods changing the sex of a male, seducing "her," and only changing the character back to a male after the child is born. So
hearing a female god say, "Wouldn't the two of us make a wonderful baby?" should be fairly alarming.

I'm more interested in how THIS works, to be honest.

I would normally assume that a goddess would need to alter her primal manifestation from female to male to be able to impregnate females of that race, right?

This falls in line with how Alter Primal Manifestation is phrased:
"If the god's new form has a natural ability based on physical structure (like wings), then the god automatically gets that new natural ability"
"Losing a particular body feature will also result in losing the related natural ability"

Taking that literally - if they go from female XX to male XY they lose the physical structure of the womb (cannot carry a baby to term) but gain the physical structure of testicles and the vans deference, allowing them to impregnate compatible races.

Now... how exactly does a god go around altering the sex of males and making them females for nearly a year so they can carry a fetus to term?

I don't think that's really within the scope of magic like Metamorphosis: Human, right?

What I would posit is... APM is not a self-only power. It is primarily referenced as a self-influencing power, yeah - we don't normally think of humans as having a primal manifestaiton. But given we don't actually haev any other way of changing a human's sex from XY to XX that I am aware of, forcing a god to use APM to change their husband into their wife for a year seems like the best route to allowing this.

Evidence that "primal manifestation" is a phrase which applies to things besides gods can be seen on page 92 under Create Minion:
"The primal manifestation of the minion can be based on any humanoid, animal or supernatural model"

The phrase actually seems to refer to HP and SDC, as seen under the body investment costs
89 "must sacrifice a part of his own primal manifestation. In other words, the invocation takes some (or all) of the god's hit points and S.D.C.!"
90 "terrifically draining, causing the deity to invest nearly all of his primal manifestation in the invocation."

This would also means it's pretty rare and only done in the case of the truest of true love so we don't see forced genderswaps and pregnancies being a common prank that evil gods do. Although... Demon Lords actually could do safely since they can forgo Body Investment costs by sacrificing greater demons. Those who pay double need to substitute Annihilated for Consumed cost though: so going with page 203's rules, that'd be an extra demon!

There are also some gods who can use APM more cheaply - Locknar is the only D+G example as he has a 'Severe' body cost (use 50% of your HP instead of 90%) so he could do it a little bit more safely.

It seems clear Zeus's primal form was human at least as recently as about a century ago.

His fatherhood is specified on page 62 of Atlantis Two (WB21 Splynn Dimensional Market) and pg 68 says that Raven Whitford's mother was "a comely peasant woman who was sure to die at the hands of a Gargoyle"

Raven is 113 years old so this liason probably happened in Europe before the introduction of the post-apocalyptic calendar - Tarn's "our changing world" in RUE was from 109 PA for example.

Zeus has had a century where he might've swapped it up though, maybe his primal form is a gargoyle now and he's creating gargoyle lightning babies.

[taalismn]

I'm thinking now of some god-entity doing the Bard with every sentient he/it finds attractive. Hijinks ensues.

A family gathering of all Zeus's illegitimate children across the megaverse, especially the non-humans....that would drive Hera berserk.
Might make for a good adventure.. 'Who's trying to bomb the Zeusling Gathering?'.

And then there's Loki as the MOTHER of Slepnir. Locked transformation? Oh boy, no wonder Loki's got a hate-on for Thor....Such high-power magic should NOT be used for family pranks(or ANY pranks, I'd opine).