A question about Witches

[jtjr26]

I am working an new villain for a campaign I am creating. I am looking to make a final boss type that the players will confront at some point down the road. My idea was to have a Demi-God that through some act in their past makes a Pact with a power of some sort to gain greater power. I am planning to have my players be sent back in time and interact with this future villain. They would in fact be the reason that the character falls from the light in the first place and, and they make a pack to gain more power so the can get their revenge in the future. I thought of having the antagonist be a Demi-God as they are already powerful but not by an overwhelming amount.

My question is can a Demi-God even make that kind of pact to become a Witch? Would their own supernatural nature prevent this?

Thanks for any feedback.

Cheers

[Curbludgeon]

There's a Sowki witch in conversion book 2. I'd be cool with it, but Witch would be the demigod's class, since the being granting witch powers is presumably outside the demigod's pantheon.

[Marcethus]

I don't see where their Divine nature would interfere with the pact made with a SN being granting them the Witch's Pact.
The Sowki would also make a very good long term Villian.

[Library Ogre]

So, basically, being a Witch means making an agreement with a Pact-giver to host part of the Pact-giver's power in themselves, and be able to use it. The bigger the fragment, the bigger the power. In general, Pact-givers get someone who will do some jobs for them (from "specific service" to "undying loyalty"), and I generally have that pact-givers get a measure of power from the actions of the witch... the witch gets XP and goes up in level, and the pact-giver gets some XP, too (without taking from the witch). A passive stream of income.

I don't see any reason a demi-god couldn't do that, and a pact-giver might be really enthusiastic about it... the witch gets some power from them, but the pact-giver gets someone who can do a lot of different tasks for them. Maybe even hook them into the godly power structure.

[Marcethus]

So, basically, being a Witch means making an agreement with a Pact-giver to host part of the Pact-giver's power in themselves, and be able to use it. The bigger the fragment, the bigger the power. In general, Pact-givers get someone who will do some jobs for them (from "specific service" to "undying loyalty"), and I generally have that pact-givers get a measure of power from the actions of the witch... the witch gets XP and goes up in level, and the pact-giver gets some XP, too (without taking from the witch). A passive stream of income.

I don't see any reason a demi-god couldn't do that, and a pact-giver might be really enthusiastic about it... the witch gets some power from them, but the pact-giver gets someone who can do a lot of different tasks for them. Maybe even hook them into the godly power structure.

Agreed, many pact givers would love the chance to get a Demi-God servant.

[Nekira Sudacne]

I largely agree. I don't think it's that demigods can't make pacts so much as their innate power means they have much less incentive to. The marginal returns on a pact are much higher for mortals than demigods.

[Marcethus]

I largely agree. I don't think it's that demigods can't make pacts so much as their innate power means they have much less incentive to. The marginal returns on a pact are much higher for mortals than demigods.

Very true. Which is why it would make an interesting villian. Why has the demi-god made a deal with the pact giver? Is it because of Pantheon related politics and he's out to bring down the pantheon or take a larger role in family politics etc.

[Library Ogre]

I largely agree. I don't think it's that demigods can't make pacts so much as their innate power means they have much less incentive to. The marginal returns on a pact are much higher for mortals than demigods.

Very true. Which is why it would make an interesting villian. Why has the demi-god made a deal with the pact giver? Is it because of Pantheon related politics and he's out to bring down the pantheon or take a larger role in family politics etc.

ooooohhhh.... demi-god who made a pact with their parent.

[Aermas]

There's a few cases of a demigod who is also a priest or sorcerer & calls upon boon from their parent/celestial ancestors. Sort of like Polyphemous or Cthulhu

[Marcethus]

I largely agree. I don't think it's that demigods can't make pacts so much as their innate power means they have much less incentive to. The marginal returns on a pact are much higher for mortals than demigods.

Very true. Which is why it would make an interesting villian. Why has the demi-god made a deal with the pact giver? Is it because of Pantheon related politics and he's out to bring down the pantheon or take a larger role in family politics etc.

ooooohhhh.... demi-god who made a pact with their parent.

Could be interesting. I was thinking more along the lines of opposing their pantheon due to slights because of the demi-god status rather than full Godhood.

[Library Ogre]

It's important for a potential pact-maker to not be too hard on their new servants.

They don't want to burn through their witches.

[Marcethus]

It's important for a potential pact-maker to not be too hard on their new servants.

They don't want to burn through their witches.

Rob Zombie FTW.

[Plane]

given the Sowki example it'd be neat to have rules on what power creates a witch and also what power one could use to sever witchy controls while stealing the power

[Nekira Sudacne]

It's important for a potential pact-maker to not be too hard on their new servants.

They don't want to burn through their witches.

Rob Zombie FTW.

I am legitimately ashamed it took me ten seconds to get it. Man that's a blast from the past

[Marcethus]

It's important for a potential pact-maker to not be too hard on their new servants.

They don't want to burn through their witches.

Rob Zombie FTW.

I am legitimately ashamed it took me ten seconds to get it. Man that's a blast from the past

Yup, it Dragula'd me to the past as well.

[Library Ogre]

given the Sowki example it'd be neat to have rules on what power creates a witch and also what power one could use to sever witchy controls while stealing the power

I personally go with the idea that they are created through the deific power Fragment Self (D&G p 192); this requires Fragment Self to not be exclusive to Deevil Lords (extending to Demon Lords and Alien Intelligences, too), or to have something similar.
While Fragment self limits them to controlling 8, that doesn't mean that they can only have 8... just that they can't directly control the fragments.

When making a Fragment, they can choose a big part of themselves, or a smaller part of themselves, which they then implant in the witch; unlike alien intelligence "Create Essence Fragment", this implantation doesn't destroy the host's personality, just puts part of the Pact-maker's power in the person. This gives the witch access to some power, and the Pact-Maker an anchor on the plane. They can recall/dissolve the fragment when they wish, but that costs them the anchor. The PPE cost of creating a fragment is small, and quickly recovered.

Minor pacts represent smaller fragments. Major pacts represent more powerful fragments. Gifts of Union are most often one of those 8 fragments they can control... even if they're not directly controlling the GoU recipient, they can. For minor pacts, they more or less let them run free, checking in from time to time but not exerting much control... it was a small investment. For major pacts, they may not remain directly in control, but they appoint a watcher... the demon familiar. The demon familiar can report back if the witch is misbehaving inappropriately (they're witches; they're definitely misbehaving), which lets the Pact-Giver retrieve the fragment.

When you have greater demons/deevils granting pacts, they've got to find some way to pay the cost... the 125 PPE may not be much, but if you're not deific level, managing such is a lot harder. They also tend to be more possessive of their witches... they're a much bigger investment, relatively. It's also why you don't tend to see witches dedicated to deities... they generally don't know this particular power (though they might be able to learn, as Hel seems to have in D&G).

Again, this isn't strict by the book, partially because I don't think strict by the book works for Palladium.

[Grazzik]

It's important for a potential pact-maker to not be too hard on their new servants.

They don't want to burn through their witches.

Rob Zombie FTW.

I am legitimately ashamed it took me ten seconds to get it. Man that's a blast from the past

Yup, it Dragula'd me to the past as well.

Dang, now I've been humming this tune all night...

[Marcethus]

It's important for a potential pact-maker to not be too hard on their new servants.

They don't want to burn through their witches.

Rob Zombie FTW.

I am legitimately ashamed it took me ten seconds to get it. Man that's a blast from the past

Yup, it Dragula'd me to the past as well.

Dang, now I've been humming this tune all night...

You're Welcome.

[thorr-kan]

There's a few cases of a demigod who is also a priest or sorcerer & calls upon boon from their parent/celestial ancestors. Sort of like Polyphemous or Cthulhu

The magic user who's also made a deal with other Powers is a deep-seated trope. No reason it can't be a demi-god, either with an allied Power or an opposed Power.

[Library Ogre]

So, many years ago, I played a shifter who made a pact and the GM, for whatever reason, didn't go with the standard Shifter pact, but a Pact of Magic. Looking back on it, it annoys me, because that's about the last thing a spellcaster would want. Another type of mage? Sure, they might like the immediacy of spellcasting.

But a wizard?

Give them a pact of power. Give them a bigger pool of PPE, give them incredible endurance, give them the ability to fly without needing a spell.

[Curbludgeon]

I guess Witches are always evil (Hidden excluded) while the Alien Intelligences they bond with can potentially be Anarchist.

It is fun to think about the more Anarchist aligned characters in the Splugorth (whoever that is, you all know that more than me) chafing under the more evil witches, the hierarchy chart notwithstanding.

"This requires a blood sacrifice!"
"Does it?"

[Plane]

So, many years ago, I played a shifter who made a pact and the GM, for whatever reason, didn't go with the standard Shifter pact, but a Pact of Magic. Looking back on it, it annoys me, because that's about the last thing a spellcaster would want. Another type of mage? Sure, they might like the immediacy of spellcasting.

But a wizard? Give them a pact of power. Give them a bigger pool of PPE, give them incredible endurance, give them the ability to fly without needing a spell.

Had you already made the "Gods of Magic" shifter pack on RUE pg 125 ? The GoM a witch gets does seem inferior to that. An eventual +2 to spell strength is insane

[thorr-kan]

Rob Zombie FTW.

I am legitimately ashamed it took me ten seconds to get it. Man that's a blast from the past

Yup, it Dragula'd me to the past as well.

Dang, now I've been humming this tune all night...

You're Welcome.

You Munsters!

(I had to look that up. After my time. Did not detract from the joke being funny.)

So, many years ago, I played a shifter who made a pact and the GM, for whatever reason, didn't go with the standard Shifter pact, but a Pact of Magic. Looking back on it, it annoys me, because that's about the last thing a spellcaster would want. Another type of mage? Sure, they might like the immediacy of spellcasting.

But a wizard?

Give them a pact of power. Give them a bigger pool of PPE, give them incredible endurance, give them the ability to fly without needing a spell.

Pact of Magic does give some more PPE and more spells. I can see a wizard going for that, especially a 1E shifter who doesn't automatically get new spells.

As an aside, I note that a none-psionic demi-god still gets 4d6 ISP. It's minor, but would be useful for techno-wizard devices.

[Library Ogre]

So, many years ago, I played a shifter who made a pact and the GM, for whatever reason, didn't go with the standard Shifter pact, but a Pact of Magic. Looking back on it, it annoys me, because that's about the last thing a spellcaster would want. Another type of mage? Sure, they might like the immediacy of spellcasting.

But a wizard? Give them a pact of power. Give them a bigger pool of PPE, give them incredible endurance, give them the ability to fly without needing a spell.

Had you already made the "Gods of Magic" shifter pack on RUE pg 125 ? The GoM a witch gets does seem inferior to that. An eventual +2 to spell strength is insane

This predated the RUE; I'd been out of school for four years when that came out.

[Marcethus]

I am legitimately ashamed it took me ten seconds to get it. Man that's a blast from the past

Yup, it Dragula'd me to the past as well.

Dang, now I've been humming this tune all night...

You're Welcome.

You Munsters!

(I had to look that up. After my time. Did not detract from the joke being funny.)

So, many years ago, I played a shifter who made a pact and the GM, for whatever reason, didn't go with the standard Shifter pact, but a Pact of Magic. Looking back on it, it annoys me, because that's about the last thing a spellcaster would want. Another type of mage? Sure, they might like the immediacy of spellcasting.

But a wizard?

Give them a pact of power. Give them a bigger pool of PPE, give them incredible endurance, give them the ability to fly without needing a spell.

Pact of Magic does give some more PPE and more spells. I can see a wizard going for that, especially a 1E shifter who doesn't automatically get new spells.

As an aside, I note that a none-psionic demi-god still gets 4d6 ISP. It's minor, but would be useful for techno-wizard devices.

IIRC your aside of +4d6 ISP only applies as an increase to their ISP if they are Psychic. If they are non-psionic they get nothing.

[thorr-kan]

Yup, it Dragula'd me to the past as well.

Dang, now I've been humming this tune all night...

You're Welcome.

You Munsters!

(I had to look that up. After my time. Did not detract from the joke being funny.)

So, many years ago, I played a shifter who made a pact and the GM, for whatever reason, didn't go with the standard Shifter pact, but a Pact of Magic. Looking back on it, it annoys me, because that's about the last thing a spellcaster would want. Another type of mage? Sure, they might like the immediacy of spellcasting.

But a wizard?

Give them a pact of power. Give them a bigger pool of PPE, give them incredible endurance, give them the ability to fly without needing a spell.

Pact of Magic does give some more PPE and more spells. I can see a wizard going for that, especially a 1E shifter who doesn't automatically get new spells.

As an aside, I note that a none-psionic demi-god still gets 4d6 ISP. It's minor, but would be useful for techno-wizard devices.

IIRC your aside of +4d6 ISP only applies as an increase to their ISP if they are Psychic. If they are non-psionic they get nothing.

"As per the appropriate O.C.C., plus 4D6."

If the appropriate O.C.C. has none, you get 4d6. If you're not a psychic, it's not like you can DO anything with it except feed psi-stalkers (I think), power a TW device, or possibly power some converted N&SS martial arts powers.

And set off CS Dog Boys.

[thorr-kan]

I am working an new villain for a campaign I am creating. I am looking to make a final boss type that the players will confront at some point down the road. My idea was to have a Demi-God that through some act in their past makes a Pact with a power of some sort to gain greater power. I am planning to have my players be sent back in time and interact with this future villain. They would in fact be the reason that the character falls from the light in the first place and, and they make a pack to gain more power so the can get their revenge in the future. I thought of having the antagonist be a Demi-God as they are already powerful but not by an overwhelming amount.

My question is can a Demi-God even make that kind of pact to become a Witch? Would their own supernatural nature prevent this?

Thanks for any feedback.

Cheers

Demigod says "The Demigod can pick any O.C.C. that fits his human/D-bee background and interests" and "demigods tend toward...magic practitioners" in the description. Witches are a kind of magic practitioner. I'd say you're good.

Interesting plan, though I will note no plan survives contact with the PCs. That's why they're called PCs.

I'm interested in what Godling power you're choosing for your Demigod. I'm partial to #9 (psionics) or #10 (magic use) myself. If the former, I would choose the Burster option. Let's be honest: fireball is always A right answer. If the latter, well there are shenanigans that can be combined with a witch to make an excellent BBEG.

[Library Ogre]

I'm interested in what Godling power you're choosing for your Demigod. I'm partial to #9 (psionics) or #10 (magic use) myself. If the former, I would choose the Burster option. Let's be honest: fireball is always A right answer. If the latter, well there are shenanigans that can be combined with a witch to make an excellent BBEG.

"Fireball is statistically likely to be the right answer, because the more fireballs you apply, the more likely it is that the problem is solved."

[Marcethus]

Dang, now I've been humming this tune all night...

You're Welcome.

You Munsters!

(I had to look that up. After my time. Did not detract from the joke being funny.)

So, many years ago, I played a shifter who made a pact and the GM, for whatever reason, didn't go with the standard Shifter pact, but a Pact of Magic. Looking back on it, it annoys me, because that's about the last thing a spellcaster would want. Another type of mage? Sure, they might like the immediacy of spellcasting.

But a wizard?

Give them a pact of power. Give them a bigger pool of PPE, give them incredible endurance, give them the ability to fly without needing a spell.

Pact of Magic does give some more PPE and more spells. I can see a wizard going for that, especially a 1E shifter who doesn't automatically get new spells.

As an aside, I note that a none-psionic demi-god still gets 4d6 ISP. It's minor, but would be useful for techno-wizard devices.

IIRC your aside of +4d6 ISP only applies as an increase to their ISP if they are Psychic. If they are non-psionic they get nothing.

"As per the appropriate O.C.C., plus 4D6."

If the appropriate O.C.C. has none, you get 4d6. If you're not a psychic, it's not like you can DO anything with it except feed psi-stalkers (I think), power a TW device, or possibly power some converted N&SS martial arts powers.

And set off CS Dog Boys.

We will have to agree to disagree then. Because if your OCC gives you none then you don't get the bonus in my view.

[thorr-kan]

You're Welcome.

You Munsters!

(I had to look that up. After my time. Did not detract from the joke being funny.)

So, many years ago, I played a shifter who made a pact and the GM, for whatever reason, didn't go with the standard Shifter pact, but a Pact of Magic. Looking back on it, it annoys me, because that's about the last thing a spellcaster would want. Another type of mage? Sure, they might like the immediacy of spellcasting.

But a wizard?

Give them a pact of power. Give them a bigger pool of PPE, give them incredible endurance, give them the ability to fly without needing a spell.

Pact of Magic does give some more PPE and more spells. I can see a wizard going for that, especially a 1E shifter who doesn't automatically get new spells.

As an aside, I note that a none-psionic demi-god still gets 4d6 ISP. It's minor, but would be useful for techno-wizard devices.

IIRC your aside of +4d6 ISP only applies as an increase to their ISP if they are Psychic. If they are non-psionic they get nothing.

"As per the appropriate O.C.C., plus 4D6."

If the appropriate O.C.C. has none, you get 4d6. If you're not a psychic, it's not like you can DO anything with it except feed psi-stalkers (I think), power a TW device, or possibly power some converted N&SS martial arts powers.

And set off CS Dog Boys.

We will have to agree to disagree then. Because if your OCC gives you none then you don't get the bonus in my view.

If it said bonus, I'd agree with you. But I'll let it lie.

I'm interested in what Godling power you're choosing for your Demigod. I'm partial to #9 (psionics) or #10 (magic use) myself. If the former, I would choose the Burster option. Let's be honest: fireball is always A right answer. If the latter, well there are shenanigans that can be combined with a witch to make an excellent BBEG.

"Fireball is statistically likely to be the right answer, because the more fireballs you apply, the more likely it is that the problem is solved."

I feel like we've had this conversation before.