Cyber-Knight Psi-Weapon Damage

[darthauthor]

First forgive me if this question has already been answered somewhere else.

Cyber-Knights and their Psi-Weapn (Psi-Sword), how do you, as GM's start their damage and increase it with levels of experience.

I consider starting damage of 1d6 MD to be too low.

I feel starting damage should equal the damage of the weapon type that the Cyber-Knight creates it as.
Of course, that is entirely my opinion.

IF all Psi-Swords (Psi-Weapons) deal the same damage regardless of length, size, and weight (Do Psi-Swords weigh anything?), only differing in the level of the Cyber-Knight, I imagine length would be the best quality.

A fellow might make a sword the size of a surf-board just to intimidate if size and weight don't matter.

I know what the Rifts Ultimate edition says about Psi-Sword damage I just don't feel it is fair when compared Vibro-Blades or with the Psionic Super-power description of the Psi-Sword.

Perhaps the question I should be asking is what is the fairest and most logical damage a 1st level Cyber-Knight should be able to do with their Psi-Weapon?

[Marcethus]

I start the Psi-Sword off at 2d6 damage and use the listed level progression chart after that. Granted when I play a Cyber Knight I tend to go the Master Psionic route so it gets a couple of extra bumps at differing levels.

The type of weapon manifested doesn't nor shouldn't change the damage. And the size is dictated by level IIRC.

[ShadowLogan]

I've never had a problem with the damage progression per say, at least comparing it to tech examples. Why? Well:
1. the damage does improve over time, so a higher level knight receives more benefit from it, plus it receives a damage boost when on a Ley Line/Nexus (per rules)
2. with the right buffs (implants, location, skill/abilities available to a CK) it is possible to hit 9d6MD at Level 1 (not that any GM should allow all of them in one place at level 1), and it can get a boost via horseback (+6) or on horseback and charging (+3d6). While a few of these buffs are applicable to Vibroblades, most aren't (it look like +1d6 to the specific blade and then the horseback modifiers, that's it) and some of the more complicated ones if removed (like Ley Line location) still would allow it to hit 3d6MD (IINM).
3. the CK is never truly w/o their Psi-Weapon, but they can with a tech equivalent (it can run out of power, it can break, it can be "dropped", etc). And Psi-Nullifier/Nega-Psychics might have an issue disrupting them (at 0 ISP cost, plus text seems to suggest it isn't purely psychic IINM, it might be Chi)
4. the regular Psi-Sword does more damage than most Vibro-Blades at Level 3 (at Level 3 the CK-Blade is comparable to most vibro-swords IIRC), and grows so much faster. Its only down side is it takes 15seconds to create, and while a Vibro-blade doesn't take this long to activate/draw the CK-Blade can be created in less than a second and doesn't need a drawing motion (from scabbard).

[Marcethus]

I've never had a problem with the damage progression per say, at least comparing it to tech examples. Why? Well:
1. the damage does improve over time, so a higher level knight receives more benefit from it, plus it receives a damage boost when on a Ley Line/Nexus (per rules)
2. with the right buffs (implants, location, skill/abilities available to a CK) it is possible to hit 9d6MD at Level 1 (not that any GM should allow all of them in one place at level 1), and it can get a boost via horseback (+6) or on horseback and charging (+3d6). While a few of these buffs are applicable to Vibroblades, most aren't (it look like +1d6 to the specific blade and then the horseback modifiers, that's it) and some of the more complicated ones if removed (like Ley Line location) still would allow it to hit 3d6MD (IINM).
3. the CK is never truly w/o their Psi-Weapon, but they can with a tech equivalent (it can run out of power, it can break, it can be "dropped", etc). And Psi-Nullifier/Nega-Psychics might have an issue disrupting them (at 0 ISP cost, plus text seems to suggest it isn't purely psychic IINM, it might be Chi)
4. the regular Psi-Sword does more damage than most Vibro-Blades at Level 3 (at Level 3 the CK-Blade is comparable to most vibro-swords IIRC), and grows so much faster. Its only down side is it takes 15seconds to create, and while a Vibro-blade doesn't take this long to activate/draw the CK-Blade can be created in less than a second and doesn't need a drawing motion (from scabbard).

The CK blade doesn't even take an action to activate. Normal Psi-Sword is the one that takes 15 seconds to activate.

[Fenris2020]

1D6 is fine, really; then take Fencing. If you go the Master Psychic route, the sword gets more at various intervals.
That said, some races can't take the Master Psychic option, nor even the Major or Minor options (which begs the question how they're Cyber-Knights in the first place...)

[ShadowLogan]

For anyone interested in how to get 9d6 at Level 1 with a Cyber-Knight Psi-Sword
1d6 base @ Level 1
x2 for Opening 3rd Eye (WB12 pg30, unlikely IMHO, this could be placed elsewhere in order to alter the effect)
1d6 for Psioinc Booster Implant (WB12 pg152, though weather if it should would work on the CK's psi-sword is up to the GM IMHO)
1d6 for Fencing Skill (RUE pg316)
2d6 for Amaki TW Psi-Blade (WB9 pg165-6, it notes a "few cyber-knights have gotten their hands on the psi-blade", so it is possible)
1d6 if on Ley Line (RUE pg366)
1d6 if on Ley Line Nexus (RUE pg366, in addition to Ley Line, I know I broke it down weird)

That's 8d6MD, unlikely but still possible. +1 for being Master Psychic or did I count 3rd Eye for the Psionic Booster (looking back at my notes for it that I kept around from a long-ago post).

You'd most likely be looking at 2d6MD at Level 1 (honestly I'm surprised CK's don't get Fencing Automatically given the Psi-Sword), get on a Ley Line or Nexus (do able) and you get added damage (1d6 or 2d6 respectively). The Amaki TW Psi-Blade could be knocked off (it does cost ISP even for a CK) in NA by either TWs or Psycape (Faculty of Psychic Technology, WB12 pg31), unlocking 3rd eye seems unlikely IMHO (it can take decades IIRC the text). The Boost Implant while possible, doesn't come without risks/side-effects. There might be some other options that I did not factor in too that could also theoretically work.

And as said previously put them on horseback and they do +6MD via Horsemanship: Cyber Knight (RUE pg311). +2d6MD (3d6 is for SDC attack, my bad) if a lance/pole-arm/spear (missed that bit, but since they can morph the blade) in a charge attack, now due to the weapon requirement they might not be able to do it at Level 1 per say.

So yeah, a CK's PSi-Swrod can potentially be "powerful" even at Level 1 with the right setup, and they only get more powerful over time.

The CK blade doesn't even take an action to activate. Normal Psi-Sword is the one that takes 15 seconds to activate.

That is correct. Not sure what I presented as wrong in point 4 that you bolded, that is when taken in context referring to the REGULAR Psi-Sword in the paragraph or even just the sentence as a whole (even state the CK-Blade "can be created in less than a second").

That said, some races can't take the Master Psychic option, nor even the Major or Minor options (which begs the question how they're Cyber-Knights in the first place...)

The CK's Psi-Sword may not be an actual psychic ability as going back to the original main book that suggest the weapon maybe something else ("Second, there is no expenditure of I.S.P in the conventional game sense, the knight's will and conviction is the driving power behind the blade."-RMB pg63) but it never really tries to identify it, and really wouldn't be an issue for non-psychic races in that era (the only other Psi-power you receive is meditation, and that isn't strictly something that is limited to psychics.

Now SoT4 did do some recton on the knight, some good and some bad (like Zen Combat), but they do seem to have taken the "something else" and expanded upon it a bit (which found its way into RUE):
-"The Cyber-Knight's training is such, that ALL can call upon their Inner Strength and Spirit (ancient, pre-Rifts Oriental masters might have called this 'chi') to perform superhuman feats"-pg23 (under Inner Strength & Spirit, where they get the 3 default powers, one of which is new).
-their PPE "is higher than the typical human or D-Bee and is part of what gives them their special abilities."-pg23 (note while the amount hasn't changed from RMB days, they did add expand to include this)
-"Presumably the knight creates it using both his inner strength and inner spirit (and unusual combination of P.P.E and I.S.P)."-pg24
-"Cyber-Knights insist the energy weapon is a manifestation of the human iwll and fighting spirit"-pg24

It appears then that the CK's PSi-Sword may not be a true psionic ability, which is why races that normally can't become psychic can become Cyber-Knights. If pg23 in SoT4 is correct and its some type of Chi ability, I don't have the resources to qualify if it does.

[Fenris2020]

For anyone interested in how to get 9d6 at Level 1 with a Cyber-Knight Psi-Sword
1d6 base @ Level 1
x2 for Opening 3rd Eye (WB12 pg30, unlikely IMHO, this could be placed elsewhere in order to alter the effect)
1d6 for Psioinc Booster Implant (WB12 pg152, though weather if it should would work on the CK's psi-sword is up to the GM IMHO)
1d6 for Fencing Skill (RUE pg316)
2d6 for Amaki TW Psi-Blade (WB9 pg165-6, it notes a "few cyber-knights have gotten their hands on the psi-blade", so it is possible)
1d6 if on Ley Line (RUE pg366)
1d6 if on Ley Line Nexus (RUE pg366, in addition to Ley Line, I know I broke it down weird)

That's 8d6MD, unlikely but still possible. +1 for being Master Psychic or did I count 3rd Eye for the Psionic Booster (looking back at my notes for it that I kept around from a long-ago post).

You'd most likely be looking at 2d6MD at Level 1 (honestly I'm surprised CK's don't get Fencing Automatically given the Psi-Sword), get on a Ley Line or Nexus (do able) and you get added damage (1d6 or 2d6 respectively). The Amaki TW Psi-Blade could be knocked off (it does cost ISP even for a CK) in NA by either TWs or Psycape (Faculty of Psychic Technology, WB12 pg31), unlocking 3rd eye seems unlikely IMHO (it can take decades IIRC the text). The Boost Implant while possible, doesn't come without risks/side-effects. There might be some other options that I did not factor in too that could also theoretically work.

And as said previously put them on horseback and they do +6MD via Horsemanship: Cyber Knight (RUE pg311). +2d6MD (3d6 is for SDC attack, my bad) if a lance/pole-arm/spear (missed that bit, but since they can morph the blade) in a charge attack, now due to the weapon requirement they might not be able to do it at Level 1 per say.

So yeah, a CK's PSi-Swrod can potentially be "powerful" even at Level 1 with the right setup, and they only get more powerful over time.

The CK blade doesn't even take an action to activate. Normal Psi-Sword is the one that takes 15 seconds to activate.

That is correct. Not sure what I presented as wrong in point 4 that you bolded, that is when taken in context referring to the REGULAR Psi-Sword in the paragraph or even just the sentence as a whole (even state the CK-Blade "can be created in less than a second").

That said, some races can't take the Master Psychic option, nor even the Major or Minor options (which begs the question how they're Cyber-Knights in the first place...)

The CK's Psi-Sword may not be an actual psychic ability as going back to the original main book that suggest the weapon maybe something else ("Second, there is no expenditure of I.S.P in the conventional game sense, the knight's will and conviction is the driving power behind the blade."-RMB pg63) but it never really tries to identify it, and really wouldn't be an issue for non-psychic races in that era (the only other Psi-power you receive is meditation, and that isn't strictly something that is limited to psychics.

Now SoT4 did do some recton on the knight, some good and some bad (like Zen Combat), but they do seem to have taken the "something else" and expanded upon it a bit (which found its way into RUE):
-"The Cyber-Knight's training is such, that ALL can call upon their Inner Strength and Spirit (ancient, pre-Rifts Oriental masters might have called this 'chi') to perform superhuman feats"-pg23 (under Inner Strength & Spirit, where they get the 3 default powers, one of which is new).
-their PPE "is higher than the typical human or D-Bee and is part of what gives them their special abilities."-pg23 (note while the amount hasn't changed from RMB days, they did add expand to include this)
-"Presumably the knight creates it using both his inner strength and inner spirit (and unusual combination of P.P.E and I.S.P)."-pg24
-"Cyber-Knights insist the energy weapon is a manifestation of the human iwll and fighting spirit"-pg24

It appears then that the CK's PSi-Sword may not be a true psionic ability, which is why races that normally can't become psychic can become Cyber-Knights. If pg23 in SoT4 is correct and its some type of Chi ability, I don't have the resources to qualify if it does.

Don't forget the half-ISP Psi-Shield that Cyber-Knights now get. It makes sense, but still... as far as I'm concerned if a race can't have psionics, then Cyber-Knight shouldn't be an allowable OCC.
I think the reason they don't get fencing automatically, is because some Cyber-Knights don't summon a sword... rather, they use a kama, an axe, or something else.
Another possibility for more low-level damage on the Psi-Sword would be the Tirrvol; their natural bone blades also do some decent damage against vampires.

[ShadowLogan]

EDIT: Fixed Quote Citation

Don't forget the half-ISP Psi-Shield that Cyber-Knights now get. It makes sense, but still... as far as I'm concerned if a race can't have psionics, then Cyber-Knight shouldn't be an allowable OCC.I think the reason they don't get fencing automatically, is because some Cyber-Knights don't summon a sword... rather, they use a kama, an axe, or something else.

If the Psi-Weapon is really some kind of Chi ability masquerading as a Psi-Ability, something we know is possible given RCB1r (pg52 has Chi-Mastery Powers converted to psychic powers powered by ISP). So it might still be possible, if the Psi-Shield is some type of Chi construct (don't have any books that get into Chi abilities so I am speculating wildly here) and Palladium has chosen to not introduce a third personal energy reserve (ISP, PPE) to the setting so is shoe-honing them into an existing energy source.

Its also worth considering that CK Monastery(s) have access to something similar to The Asylum in Atlantis (WB2 pg28-30 that states "Every being [...] is instilled with psionic powers and changes", NOTE it can't be the same dimension here for a variety of reasons), which might explain how non-psychics can activate what are normally Super Psionic Category Powers. In other words they've been altered by something that made them more powerful (examples exist for humans like Psi-Stalker Mutants, Sea Titans, GE humans in SA2 or Lonestar, etc).

I think the reason they don't get fencing automatically, is because some Cyber-Knights don't summon a sword... rather, they use a kama, an axe, or something else.

While true in the RUE-era, it was the same going back to the RMB-era when it was limited to swords (wait Fencing wasn't in RMB, I think we imported it from 1E RT). The ONLY DIFFERENCE between the OCC skills of each era is that in RMB it was simple Horsemanship, but in RUE it was upgraded to Horsemanship: CK. Not sure about other OCC/Skill listings between the two books but it would have been a prime opportunity to include skill additions to the various classes that didn't exist at the RMB time (like H:CK).

It should also be noted the RUE/SoT4 CK while they can elect for another shape, they can't do so until later level (2 or 3rd is when they can start to "shape" the sword, but even that is presented as "sword" with non-sword types appearing later with age/XP). And only 13% of CKs do so.

Another possibility for more low-level damage on the Psi-Sword would be the Tirrvol; their natural bone blades also do some decent damage against vampires.

Which is pretty much limited to that one race.

Another way to increase psi-sword damage might be to find a way to make others vulnerable to psychic attacks that they take extra damage. There is precedent for taking extra damage from psychic attacks due to vulnerabilities (Nyxla and its minions take extra damage per WB12, minions take x2 and the big guy takes x10), so maybe a TW/magic item that inflicts causes the vulnerability in others (but here one is on their own if its even possible or what the device would look like), but again this isn't going to be for everyone, but something to consider.

Maybe (introduce) a random roll for vulnerabilities to psychic (and/or other attack classification like fire, cold, electricity, etc) (and the severity, some being more vulnerable than others) could be considered? Since we know there are beings that take extra damage from psychic and/or magical attacks, and also those who have natural resistances?

Becoming host to a Psymbiote (WB12) would give a CK access to the full fledged Psi-Sword (4d6 +2d6 at level ups), but wouldn't be as fast on the draw (15second prep time required) and would require ISP (which the symbiote can provide) for those times when they need a stronger punch.

[Plane]

hm SL looking at the text you quoted I think that should be Fenris' name in quotes not mine

For anyone interested in how to get 9d6 at Level 1 with a Cyber-Knight Psi-Sword
1d6 base @ Level 1
x2 for Opening 3rd Eye (WB12 pg30, unlikely IMHO, this could be placed elsewhere in order to alter the effect)

I'd imagine doubling happens at the end of all additives.

1d6 for Fencing Skill (RUE pg316)

Given the way horsemanship explicitly notes MD options and this doesn't I'd question whether this would give an MD bonus at all.

And as said previously put them on horseback and they do +6MD via Horsemanship: Cyber Knight (RUE pg311). +2d6MD (3d6 is for SDC attack, my bad) if a lance/pole-arm/spear (missed that bit, but since they can morph the blade) in a charge attack, now due to the weapon requirement they might not be able to do it at Level 1 per say.

I'd just ignore the charge attack, you're getting less damage-per-time using it in most cases since it takes two melee attacks to deliver it. I'd just take the +6 MD per attack and deliver two of them.

Given how niche most options are (CS experimental bionics, Amaki TW and enlightment are pretty rare) I think the biggest change honestly is that +6 MD from horseback on unarmed combat. Most equestrians get a variable 1D6 but the expert Cyber-Knight fixed a fixed +6.

This is a Cossack-tier bonus which not even Cowboys get, though they are better at letting the horse itself attack w/ kicks and stuff.

Seems like whatever energy-ish component exists for vibro-blades and psi-swords they're still physical enough that the gravity of horseback seems to help - I'm surprised you don't get bonuses like this when attacking from the higher ground (like Obi-Wan) or when doing jumping attacks. Maybe it's meant to reflect hitting higher vulnerable areas like the head and neck from the higher seat? I dunno.

[Marcethus]

Psi-Sword has no physical component. It's pure energy.
The way I do it in regards to Fencing is that the damage adjustment applies to all swords whether it deals MDC or SDC.
The doubling of the Third Eye occurs at the Base level of the specific power that is chosen.

[Killer Cyborg]

I've never had a problem with the damage progression per say, at least comparing it to tech examples. Why? Well:
1. the damage does improve over time, so a higher level knight receives more benefit from it, plus it receives a damage boost when on a Ley Line/Nexus (per rules)
2. with the right buffs (implants, location, skill/abilities available to a CK) it is possible to hit 9d6MD at Level 1 (not that any GM should allow all of them in one place at level 1), and it can get a boost via horseback (+6) or on horseback and charging (+3d6). While a few of these buffs are applicable to Vibroblades, most aren't (it look like +1d6 to the specific blade and then the horseback modifiers, that's it) and some of the more complicated ones if removed (like Ley Line location) still would allow it to hit 3d6MD (IINM).
3. the CK is never truly w/o their Psi-Weapon, but they can with a tech equivalent (it can run out of power, it can break, it can be "dropped", etc). And Psi-Nullifier/Nega-Psychics might have an issue disrupting them (at 0 ISP cost, plus text seems to suggest it isn't purely psychic IINM, it might be Chi)
4. the regular Psi-Sword does more damage than most Vibro-Blades at Level 3 (at Level 3 the CK-Blade is comparable to most vibro-swords IIRC), and grows so much faster. Its only down side is it takes 15seconds to create, and while a Vibro-blade doesn't take this long to activate/draw the CK-Blade can be created in less than a second and doesn't need a drawing motion (from scabbard).

Agreed.

Also, I think the idea that CKs use their psi-sword for everything is overblown.
In the RMB they didn't even necessarily start with WP Sword (though they could take it), so it was entirely possible to have a CK with no WP in the psi-sword at all.
There was no canon reason why a CK would insist on using a sword in battle any more than there's a good reason why a US Marine would insist on using a sword in battle; having a sword doesn't always mean you're a swordsman, and it doesn't make using a sword a better option than using a gun in most circumstances.
I think Rifts lost flavor over time rather than gain it, as players and writers alike insisted on reducing every class to a one-trick pony (or two-trick pony) who relied on their class ability for virtually all situations.
Mages are more interesting if they use guns or other weapons for general combat, and save magic for the more important stuff.
Cyberknights are more interesting if they use guns or other weapons for general combat, and save their Psi-Sword for special occasions when it would make sense to use it based on its stats and nature.

All that being said, I did at one point house-rule that the CS Psionic Gauntlet from Psi-Scape could be used to enhance a character's existing Psi-Sword similarly to an Amaki Psi-Blade, rather than to create a psi-sword of its own, if the user wanted it to.
So anybody who doesn't think the psi-sword is good enough as-is might contemplate going with that.

[ShadowLogan]

Given how niche most options are (CS experimental bionics, Amaki TW and enlightment are pretty rare) I think the biggest change honestly is that +6 MD from horseback on unarmed combat. Most equestrians get a variable 1D6 but the expert Cyber-Knight fixed a fixed +6.

I agree it is unlikely that every buff I listed out would be available, I do not dispute that. That was from a thread where level and such wasn't an issue as it was focused on seeing how damaging a psi-sword could actually be (I forget the specifics, I just have notes I did when assembling it). So if someone wants to say that a Level 1 CK Psi-Sword is "weak", well there are a variety of ways to improve it if you know where to look (and depending on the GM fiat) without resorting to house rules to "fix" something that may or may not be "broken" in actuality (POV/expectation maybe).

[darthauthor]

Well one of the things that came to mind was the choice of Psi-Weapon, whether it be a classic Psi-Sword or something different like an axe or in the case of one of my characters a Haliberd.

Questions come to mind, that are rooted in reality, instead of a video game like approach of assigned numbers on paper.

1. IF all Psi-Swords (Psi-Weapons) do the same damage regardless of shape or size, what if anything is the best Psi-Weapon to have?

Is it a HUGE PSI-Sword that competes with the like in ANIME shows that looks like diving boards?

Should it be a Psi-Weapon with the longest reach? Like a spear.

I don't know if Psi-Sword even have weight or are they more like Light-Sabers from Star Wars?

[Marcethus]

The best Psi-Weapon is the one that fits the situation as needed. Granted IIRC the Cyber-Knight can't do this at early levels but as they gain levels the changes they can make in their Psi-Sword become more extensive. To my knowledge Psi-Swords are weightless.

[ShadowLogan]

If you are looking for reasons to use another/specific shape:
1. WP Skills might provide better bonuses (and sometimes different types that aren't available to sword, but might be called for in a given situation)
2. Their Horsemanship skill as mentioned can add bonuses to damage for certain class of weapons (which also come with reach), so if the CK can turn the Psi-Sword into a lance for example, that would mean a good bit of extra damage
3. if one wants to allow for inherent bonuses due to design, I'd suggest picking up the Compendium of Weapons, Armor, and Castles books (there are two I know of, regular and Oriental) Palladium does and use the rating system to grant bonuses. IINM the Compendium books include conversion notes for use in Palladium games, but the individual books they are based on do not per say do that.

[Plane]

Should it be a Psi-Weapon with the longest reach? Like a spear.

if I was fighting across a chasm def a long weapon like a spear, if I was fighting in a narrow tunnel with a bunch of turns then def a small weapon like a knife

Of course the major problem with implementing common-sense stuff like this is Palladium doesn't have much in the way of different rules for weapons when used in environments and ranges which is more of an issue with games that deal more with hex placements.

[Marcethus]

I have gotten ahold of my RUE and I have noted that it doesn't say anything on the size of the Psi-Sword.