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SolCannibal · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:12 am

Took a look at the Revised Conversion Book and the fact the "Palladium dragons" are gone got me by surprise, specially as i was kind of looking for some form of update on the Basilisk in particular, just to check, compare and tinker for a funny idea of mine.

Does anyone know if Rifts-compatible versions of these beasts appear in any other books?

Shark_Force · **Joined:** Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:11 pm **Posts:** 7280

I think you need to get the palladium fantasy books for that. iirc, someone told kevin he needed to separate the IP of the various settings. probably around the time he sold the rights for a rifts movie.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:28 am

Shark_Force wrote:

I think you need to get the palladium fantasy books for that. iirc, someone told kevin he needed to separate the IP of the various settings. probably around the time he sold the rights for a rifts movie.

It's not a bad decision per se as it makes the setting more unique and consequently gives GMs even more pieces to mix & match.

That said my PF basic is a '98 printing - no idea if it has conversion notes for Rifts. Damn, doesn't even have basilisk stats, nor Monsters & Animals, that is even older.... Ok, old Conversion Book and some messing around it is.

Question - how macabre would it be for an adult Basilisk - in a lair riddled with literal centuries of petrified victims - to be a Stone Master, Earth Warlock or even both?

1970 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:34 am

SolCannibal wrote:

Took a look at the Revised Conversion Book and the fact the "Palladium dragons" are gone got me by surprise, specially as i was kind of looking for some form of update on the Basilisk in particular, just to check, compare and tinker for a funny idea of mine.

Does anyone know if Rifts-compatible versions of these beasts appear in any other books?

There are some quick conversion notes in the Dragons & Gods book for Palladium Fantasy 2nd Edition. There doesn't seem to be any real changes from Conversion Book One (1st edition), and in fact the Conversion book may be better, as it's suited for the setting. Hope this helps.

1970 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:02 am

SolCanibal wrote:

Question - how macabre would it be for an adult Basilisk - in a lair riddled with literal centuries of petrified victims - to be a Stone Master, Earth Warlock or even both?

Macabre? Maybe. Useful? After a quick read through of Earth Elemental Magic and Stone Magic I can't find any real benefit except maybe hiding golems in a horde of statues. Even then golems need onyx eyes, so an astute adventurer could figure out which is which, plus Create Golem is an 8th level spell, which is outside the realm of most Basilisks, who seem to top out at 6th level.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:10 am

1970 wrote:

SolCanibal wrote:

Question - how macabre would it be for an adult Basilisk - in a lair riddled with literal centuries of petrified victims - to be a Stone Master, Earth Warlock or even both?

Macabre? Maybe. Useful? After a quick read through of Earth Elemental Magic and Stone Magic I can't find any real benefit except maybe hiding golems in a horde of statues. Even then golems need onyx eyes, so an astute adventurer could figure out which is which, plus Create Golem is an 8th level spell, which is outside the realm of most Basilisks, who seem to top out at 6th level.

Well, wasn't counting on much pratical use of that anyway, more ways to further creep out the PCs in a labyrinth of staatues who were once living people (and might have been reshaped by the basilisk while in that state) but who knows, as the critter is supposed to be old i have no problem with making it of a higher level than usual.

Or i could try some other things - like using techtonic entities to animate the petrified people instead. :twisted:

Time to start up some notes to tinker with i guess.

(Truth be told, the basilisk is a red herring meant to distract the PCs from the real plot coupon - the hundreds (or more) of people that will come back to life the moment the monster dies, some Chaos Earth "survivors" among them)

1970 · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:36 am

SolCannibal wrote:

1970 wrote:

SolCanibal wrote:

Question - how macabre would it be for an adult Basilisk - in a lair riddled with literal centuries of petrified victims - to be a Stone Master, Earth Warlock or even both?

Macabre? Maybe. Useful? After a quick read through of Earth Elemental Magic and Stone Magic I can't find any real benefit except maybe hiding golems in a horde of statues. Even then golems need onyx eyes, so an astute adventurer could figure out which is which, plus Create Golem is an 8th level spell, which is outside the realm of most Basilisks, who seem to top out at 6th level.

Well, wasn't counting on much pratical use of that anyway, more ways to further creep out the PCs in a labyrinth of staatues who were once living people (and might have been reshaped by the basilisk while in that state) but who knows, as the critter is supposed to be old i have no problem with making it of a higher level than usual.

Or i could try some other things - like using techtonic entities to animate the petrified people instead. :twisted:

Time to start up some notes to tinker with i guess.

(Truth be told, the basilisk is a red herring meant to distract the PCs from the real plot coupon - the hundreds (or more) of people that will come back to life the moment the monster dies, some Chaos Earth "survivors" among them)

If you're trying to apply the rule of cool, defiantly go with the Stone Master. It can reshape its statues or the walls of its lair into anything it wants, even partially encasing its victims into the walls. Arms and faces sticking out of walls and stuff all over the place. Give it a trove of gemstones it can draw power from. Maybe Smaug it up a little and have it partially encrusted with gems so the characters don't know why the dragon is exhibiting so many varied powers. If its just a red herring I wouldn't give it a stone pyramid to play with, unless the characters are pretty tough and your dragon is kind of weak. Just some random thoughts.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:46 am

1970 wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

1970 wrote:

SolCanibal wrote:

Question - how macabre would it be for an adult Basilisk - in a lair riddled with literal centuries of petrified victims - to be a Stone Master, Earth Warlock or even both?

Macabre? Maybe. Useful? After a quick read through of Earth Elemental Magic and Stone Magic I can't find any real benefit except maybe hiding golems in a horde of statues. Even then golems need onyx eyes, so an astute adventurer could figure out which is which, plus Create Golem is an 8th level spell, which is outside the realm of most Basilisks, who seem to top out at 6th level.

Well, wasn't counting on much pratical use of that anyway, more ways to further creep out the PCs in a labyrinth of staatues who were once living people (and might have been reshaped by the basilisk while in that state) but who knows, as the critter is supposed to be old i have no problem with making it of a higher level than usual.

Or i could try some other things - like using techtonic entities to animate the petrified people instead. :twisted:

Time to start up some notes to tinker with i guess.

(Truth be told, the basilisk is a red herring meant to distract the PCs from the real plot coupon - the hundreds (or more) of people that will come back to life the moment the monster dies, some Chaos Earth "survivors" among them)

If you're trying to apply the rule of cool, defiantly go with the Stone Master. It can reshape its statues or the walls of its lair into anything it wants, even partially encasing its victims into the walls. Arms and faces sticking out of walls and stuff all over the place. Give it a trove of gemstones it can draw power from. Maybe Smaug it up a little and have it partially encrusted with gems so the characters don't know why the dragon is exhibiting so many varied powers. If its just a red herring I wouldn't give it a stone pyramid to play with, unless the characters are pretty tough and your dragon is kind of weak. Just some random thoughts.

Well, it is a basilisk, they are pretty much the unwanted runts of the dragon family along with cockatrice.
And adult one is closer to the hatchlings of other races. On the pyramid i'm of two minds: In one i don't really care to make the damn thing too powerful (ain't like my PC group is exactly overpowered), on another side, a pyramid lair would make quite the sweet piece of loot. If they manage to hold it somehow, obviously. :wink:

TeeAychEeMarchHare · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:22 pm

SolCannibal wrote:

, a pyramid lair would make quite the sweet piece of loot. If they manage to hold it somehow, obviously. :wink:

And you have just created an ongoing series of issues for the characters to deal with. Everyone and their brother is going to want to take that away and use it themselves (or 'rent' it to cast a spell, conveniently forgetting to mention that that spell involves human sacrifice and summoning something nasty), pyramid will need maintenance and repairs at some point, maybe word gets out about how tough they are + they have a pyramid, so now there's a tent city springing up, which turns into a shantytown, which becomes a proper settlement (if you let it get that far), and each level brings new problems. Crime, slavers, interest from more powerful factions, etc.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:40 pm

TeeAychEeMarchHare wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

, a pyramid lair would make quite the sweet piece of loot. If they manage to hold it somehow, obviously. :wink:

And you have just created an ongoing series of issues for the characters to deal with. Everyone and their brother is going to want to take that away and use it themselves (or 'rent' it to cast a spell, conveniently forgetting to mention that that spell involves human sacrifice and summoning something nasty), pyramid will need maintenance and repairs at some point, maybe word gets out about how tough they are + they have a pyramid, so now there's a tent city springing up, which turns into a shantytown, which becomes a proper settlement (if you let it get that far), and each level brings new problems. Crime, slavers, interest from more powerful factions, etc.

Yes and no - the pyramid and the Basilisk's lair is sort of hidden, part of a subterranean complex under a city-state in the Magic Zone where the most of the story is set. Some people know (the basilisk is supposed to watch over something), important ones - what can be a problem on itself - but the place or its owner existence are mostly secret from the populace or local powers.

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6051

Strangely enough, being present in Dragons and Gods didn't stop them form reprinting the Elementals (or the Demon Lords) in Dark Conversions...

Including all the fun of dark conversions Demon Lords being some weird amalgamation of their CB1 / D+G versions.

TeeAychEeMarchHare · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:16 pm

SolCannibal wrote:

TeeAychEeMarchHare wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

, a pyramid lair would make quite the sweet piece of loot. If they manage to hold it somehow, obviously. :wink:

And you have just created an ongoing series of issues for the characters to deal with. Everyone and their brother is going to want to take that away and use it themselves (or 'rent' it to cast a spell, conveniently forgetting to mention that that spell involves human sacrifice and summoning something nasty), pyramid will need maintenance and repairs at some point, maybe word gets out about how tough they are + they have a pyramid, so now there's a tent city springing up, which turns into a shantytown, which becomes a proper settlement (if you let it get that far), and each level brings new problems. Crime, slavers, interest from more powerful factions, etc.

Yes and no - the pyramid and the Basilisk's lair is sort of hidden, part of a subterranean complex under a city-state in the Magic Zone where the most of the story is set. Some people know (the basilisk is supposed to watch over something), important ones - what can be a problem on itself - but the place or its owner existence are mostly secret from the populace or local powers.

That's all past tense as soon as the characters interact with it.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:20 pm

TeeAychEeMarchHare wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

TeeAychEeMarchHare wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

, a pyramid lair would make quite the sweet piece of loot. If they manage to hold it somehow, obviously. :wink:

And you have just created an ongoing series of issues for the characters to deal with. Everyone and their brother is going to want to take that away and use it themselves (or 'rent' it to cast a spell, conveniently forgetting to mention that that spell involves human sacrifice and summoning something nasty), pyramid will need maintenance and repairs at some point, maybe word gets out about how tough they are + they have a pyramid, so now there's a tent city springing up, which turns into a shantytown, which becomes a proper settlement (if you let it get that far), and each level brings new problems. Crime, slavers, interest from more powerful factions, etc.

Yes and no - the pyramid and the Basilisk's lair is sort of hidden, part of a subterranean complex under a city-state in the Magic Zone where the most of the story is set. Some people know (the basilisk is supposed to watch over something), important ones - what can be a problem on itself - but the place or its owner existence are mostly secret from the populace or local powers.

That's all past tense as soon as the characters interact with it.

Naah, the players might be smart and manage to keep it still hidden for their own advanta...... :lol:

(Ok, no one believed that for even a second. yes, you're a 100% correct, Tee. But they might try and that's where the fun is) :wink:

Curbludgeon · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:25 pm

Instead of Stone Master, one could make the Basilisk a Fleshcrafter that knows the Stone to Flesh spell. That gets you all the squick without adding in gem powers and pyramid stuff. It could prove a good opportunity to use some of the zombies from dead reign or CE:Resurrection as well. Perhaps one of the victims believed to be human is a Pretty dead girl (or whatever the alive human looking one is called), or a Walking Grave was previously a load-bearing wall.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:48 pm

Curbludgeon wrote:

Instead of Stone Master, one could make the Basilisk a Fleshcrafter that knows the Stone to Flesh spell. That gets you all the squick without adding in gem powers and pyramid stuff. It could prove a good opportunity to use some of the zombies from dead reign or CE:Resurrection as well. Perhaps one of the victims believed to be human is a Pretty dead girl (or whatever the alive human looking one is called), or a Walking Grave was previously a load-bearing wall.

No idea of where wwould one find a fleshcrafter in the first place - not to mention the Stone Master O.C.C. more easily fits with someone serving an egyptian god (kind of relevant to my game's plot) - so i'll probably stand by it. Not to mention i kind of like the image of a ridiculously vain basilisk covered in precious gems Smaug-style.

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6051

SolCannibal wrote:

how macabre would it be for an adult Basilisk - in a lair riddled with literal centuries of petrified victims - to be a Stone Master, Earth Warlock or even both?

About as macabre as World Book 21 pages 34-35. September 1999 was when Mark Sumimoto's "Old Rock" and his "Stone Terror" business was published. First and only example in canon I can think of, though I'm sure some players might've thought of this as soon as CB1+WB2 came out.

One thing I'm wondering though... when a Basilisk uses petrification, about clothes turning to stone too, like the impression I get from Breaux's illustration.

CBp120 / DGp21 both say "even inanimate objects get a save" which makes me wonder if your clothing would make a separate savings throw than you, and maybe lead to situations like your clothes petrifying while you're fine, or vice versa.

Collectively these 2 versions have separate notes which are both important though:
*RBC mentions being in vehicle or power armor there is a 90% chance that only it is transformed
*D&G mentions being in metal armor there is a 75% chance that only the armor is transformed.

More advanced rules for % would probably be helpful here. Like if it's 75% protection by full plate, maybe lower-AR metal armor (with less SDC?) should give lower % protection? Maybe even non-metal armors might help?

This gives the impression that despite the separate saves (?) that the beam is sort of armor-piercing, it has a 10% chance of turning you to stone even if you're inside a vehicle!

More advanced considerations for vehicles should probably make sense though, as there's a pretty big difference to being in a UAR-1 Enforcer vs being in a Death's Head Transport in terms of how close you are to whichever wall gets hit by the Basilisk beam...

Not to mention wearing power armor INSIDE a vehicle should probably be some kind of added protection too, as it's like 2 layers. 10% x 10% like maybe a 1% chance, if not absolute protection.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:42 am

Axelmania wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

how macabre would it be for an adult Basilisk - in a lair riddled with literal centuries of petrified victims - to be a Stone Master, Earth Warlock or even both?

About as macabre as World Book 21 pages 34-35. September 1999 was when Mark Sumimoto's "Old Rock" and his "Stone Terror" business was published. First and only example in canon I can think of, though I'm sure some players might've thought of this as soon as CB1+WB2 came out.

Have had the book for years aand yet i missed that one, weird that. Thanks a lot.

Axelmania wrote:

One thing I'm wondering though... when a Basilisk uses petrification, about clothes turning to stone too, like the impression I get from Breaux's illustration.

CBp120 / DGp21 both say "even inanimate objects get a save" which makes me wonder if your clothing would make a separate savings throw than you, and maybe lead to situations like your clothes petrifying while you're fine, or vice versa.

Collectively these 2 versions have separate notes which are both important though:
*RBC mentions being in vehicle or power armor there is a 90% chance that only it is transformed
*D&G mentions being in metal armor there is a 75% chance that only the armor is transformed.

More advanced rules for % would probably be helpful here. Like if it's 75% protection by full plate, maybe lower-AR metal armor (with less SDC?) should give lower % protection? Maybe even non-metal armors might help?

My understanding based on the CB version has always been that "full enviroment isolation" provided by the power armor or being wholy inside a closed vehicle.

Axelmania wrote:

This gives the impression that despite the separate saves (?) that the beam is sort of armor-piercing, it has a 10% chance of turning you to stone even if you're inside a vehicle!

I tend to see it from the other side, that armor offers a reasonable - if not perfect - degree of protection in the form of that "additional" saving throw. Yeah, by RAW they are not exactly mutually exclusive or anything like that, but find it more convenient to do it "by layers" from covering to user and so on. Having your clothes untouched if you got turned to stone first doesn't add much of anything, unlike beingg entrapped in a petrified armor or vehicle.

Axelmania wrote:

More advanced considerations for vehicles should probably make sense though, as there's a pretty big difference to being in a UAR-1 Enforcer vs being in a Death's Head Transport in terms of how close you are to whichever wall gets hit by the Basilisk beam...

Not to mention wearing power armor INSIDE a vehicle should probably be some kind of added protection too, as it's like 2 layers. 10% x 10% like maybe a 1% chance, if not absolute protection.

True, but then we are getting a lot of wordcount in a very outlier case, as basilisk petrification is quite particular on itself already, so i can kind of understand the decision to instead focus on other things and leave such degree of detail up to individual GM's judgement.

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6051

SolCannibal wrote:

I tend to see it from the other side, that armor offers a reasonable - if not perfect - degree of protection in the form of that "additional" saving throw. Yeah, by RAW they are not exactly mutually exclusive or anything like that, but find it more convenient to do it "by layers" from covering to user and so on.

The exclusivity is sort of a vague thing, like it talks about items getting a savings throw (d20) like people, but then there's also this percentile for metal armor (PF 75%) or power armor (Rifts 90%: with vehicles, including bots, being lumped in as no-better-than-PA:so buy yourself a chipwell warmonger with 3000 SDC! It will protect you more than a Dead Boy with 100 MDC!)

I'm thinking in the case where a percentile applies...
1) roll d20 for your armor
2) roll percentile
3) if percentile fails, roll d20 for yourself

The only question I'm not sure how to answer is: do you bother to roll (2) at all if (1) succeeds? Would armor not being petrified be automatic guarantee of you being protected, or is that percentile ALWAYS a thing?

SolCannibal wrote:

Having your clothes untouched if you got turned to stone first doesn't add much of anything

The basilisk might be able to pull the clothes off your statue and wear them itself?

SolCannibal wrote:

a very outlier case

Vehicles transporting troops in PA isn't that rare, pretty sure we had SAMAS in APCs and Deaths Heads since 1990.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:21 pm

Axelmania wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

I tend to see it from the other side, that armor offers a reasonable - if not perfect - degree of protection in the form of that "additional" saving throw. Yeah, by RAW they are not exactly mutually exclusive or anything like that, but find it more convenient to do it "by layers" from covering to user and so on.

The exclusivity is sort of a vague thing, like it talks about items getting a savings throw (d20) like people, but then there's also this percentile for metal armor (PF 75%) or power armor (Rifts 90%: with vehicles, including bots, being lumped in as no-better-than-PA:so buy yourself a chipwell warmonger with 3000 SDC! It will protect you more than a Dead Boy with 100 MDC!)

I'm thinking in the case where a percentile applies...
1) roll d20 for your armor
2) roll percentile
3) if percentile fails, roll d20 for yourself

The only question I'm not sure how to answer is: do you bother to roll (2) at all if (1) succeeds? Would armor not being petrified be automatic guarantee of you being protected, or is that percentile ALWAYS a thing?

SolCannibal wrote:

Having your clothes untouched if you got turned to stone first doesn't add much of anything

The basilisk might be able to pull the clothes off your statue and wear them itself?

SolCannibal wrote:

a very outlier case

Vehicles transporting troops in PA isn't that rare, pretty sure we had SAMAS in APCs and Deaths Heads since 1990.

My point with "outlier" is that basilisk eye beams are on their own already an exceptional case in relation to how petrification works, so it might be seen "as overspecification of the detail of an exception" - when you already have a limited page count, that might be better used to deal with mechanics or setting elements of more general use for GMs and players as a whole.

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6051

Given that basilisk+cockatrice reach maturity at 200 years old, I had figured they might be more numerous than other dragons (reproduce faster, 3x more generations) who reach maturity at 600 (cept woolies at 400 and hydras at 500).

Of course, Bs/Cs/Hs/Ws probably get killed off more frequently than other dragons which might keep that in check. Hard to say. The "slain on sight" reduces the average life span (which is expectancy, not maximum) to ~600(+?) despite them not dying of old age at 2000 years (ripe)

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:44 pm

Axelmania wrote:

Given that basilisk+cockatrice reach maturity at 200 years old, I had figured they might be more numerous than other dragons (reproduce faster, 3x more generations) who reach maturity at 600 (cept woolies at 400 and hydras at 500).

Of course, Bs/Cs/Hs/Ws probably get killed off more frequently than other dragons which might keep that in check. Hard to say. The "slain on sight" reduces the average life span (which is expectancy, not maximum) to ~600(+?) despite them not dying of old age at 2000 years (ripe)

Several reasons one might expect basilisk life expectancy to be much lower.

- Basilisks are much weaker than other dragons (an adult one is still worse off than the hatchlings of a number of other breeds/species in a number of stats).

- Basilisks still count as dragons for the sake of components in the making of certain powerful rituals, magical objects and other valuable esoterical resources, making them (relatively) less risky targets to poach for such grisly but high-paying business.

- Basilisks do not possess the natural shapechanging powers common to many other variants of dragon, making them also easier to track down than their cousins.

- Most of their kind are notorious for possessing a most awful and toxic pattern of behaviour that can be a threat to nearby communities or kingdoms if left unchecked, giving the added bonus of a sort of moral justification to those people engaged in their poaching and extermination as a species.

So basically we have 4 strikes against them versus 1 or 2 in their favor. From that perspective, more than boosting their numbers, i guess the earlier maturation age might be the one factor saving the basilisk as a species from mass extinction....

But in a world or dimension with no other intelligent species to compete with or hunt them down - or they manage to strike a more amicable relationship with whatever native sapients they find - their numbers might grow quite impressive indeed.

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6051

Cockatrice toxic breath has a range of 60 ft so I could understand how archers might get them... Basilisk eye-beams don't have any listed range, so presumably it's just 'line of sight' which is generally pretty far for most creatures... plus they have 200ft nightvision.

You'd have to be VERY intelligent and coordinated even to take out a hatchling.

Being evil-prone also would work out in their reproductive favor since unlike the stereotypical mainstream dragon they're not going to do dumb stuff like go out adventuring and exposing themselves to make friends with food.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:35 pm

Axelmania wrote:

Cockatrice toxic breath has a range of 60 ft so I could understand how archers might get them... Basilisk eye-beams don't have any listed range, so presumably it's just 'line of sight' which is generally pretty far for most creatures... plus they have 200ft nightvision.

You'd have to be VERY intelligent and coordinated even to take out a hatchling.

It could be, and that would indeed be majorly helpful to them.
Or it could be a range of 60 ft like the toxic breath or even less.
In the absence of evidence, it could go either way. That's something in serious need of an errata.

Axelmania wrote:

Being evil-prone also would work out in their reproductive favor since unlike the stereotypical mainstream dragon they're not going to do dumb stuff like go out adventuring and exposing themselves to make friends with food.

Except they are the dragon with the "kill on sight" bad rep because of that, remember? Dumb stuff and what classifies as that or helping to avoid it can be quite relative.

Also, it ain't about good & evil per se - lots of the other dragons can be evil and are. It's about socialization/networking, as most dragons are described as quite gregarious, unlike the basilisk that are seen as cunning at best, manipulative, treacherous, greedy and lustful for power in the extreme, traits that often make them into the secret masters of thosse who associate with them.

All around bad rep does not make a good trait in helping with survivability.

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6051

*checks CB* what I'd call the 'sister monsters' (fellow stoners) would be the Magot (p214) and the Gorgon (p223).

Magots don't have a range listed either, while Gorgons have an "approximate range" of 400ft.

PF2 still didn't give Magots a range (nor did Dark Conversions) and reduced Gorgon range to 200ft (as did Dark Conversions and Dyval)

DB10p75 finally assigned magots a range: 1000ft +100ft per level, which seems suitable for a Greater demon.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:56 pm

Axelmania wrote:

*checks CB* what I'd call the 'sister monsters' (fellow stoners) would be the Magot (p214) and the Gorgon (p223).

Magots don't have a range listed either, while Gorgons have an "approximate range" of 400ft.

PF2 still didn't give Magots a range (nor did Dark Conversions) and reduced Gorgon range to 200ft (as did Dark Conversions and Dyval)

DB10p75 finally assigned magots a range: 1000ft +100ft per level, which seems suitable for a Greater demon.

Good catch all in all. An "approximate range" of 200-400ft, depending on how one wants to balance out the basilisk in relation to them (do their petrification powers suffer from the "reflectable" limitation too?).

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6051

I can't see any countermeasures like that for Gorgons, which is odd considering the source material (how Perseus beat Medusa)

That said, they have the disadvantage that you need to look the gorgon in her eyes or her snakes eyes for it to work.

As far as I can tell, a Basilisk can turn you to stone whether you look at it or not, unless you reflect it or roll decent percentile wearing metal (75) or power (90) armor.

Magots seem to work more like basilisks (only need to hit with a beam, victim doesn't need to look at you) but unlike a Basilisk/Gorgon their transformation is temporary (minutes, or hours if they spend PPE)

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:31 am

Axelmania wrote:

I can't see any countermeasures like that for Gorgons, which is odd considering the source material (how Perseus beat Medusa)

By finding Medusa's location looking at her reflection in his mirrored shield instead of directly and decapitating her.
That pretty much confirms the gaze's power is not supposed to be reflective, even in myth.

Axelmania wrote:

That said, they have the disadvantage that you need to look the gorgon in her eyes or her snakes eyes for it to work.

As far as I can tell, a Basilisk can turn you to stone whether you look at it or not, unless you reflect it or roll decent percentile wearing metal (75) or power (90) armor.

Magots seem to work more like basilisks (only need to hit with a beam, victim doesn't need to look at you) but unlike a Basilisk/Gorgon their transformation is temporary (minutes, or hours if they spend PPE)

So the medusa's gaze has pros & cons in relation to the basilisk's, what might sort of balance them out, while the Magots would be superior to both, due to range & virulence (but then loses big time in duration).

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6051

Ah that's right, I'm probably mixing up the events in the original myth with something that probably happened in one of the dozens (hundreds) of adaptations, I'm sure at least one of them involves a beam-reflection-turning-her-to-stone though that might be more popular in basilisk myth adaptations.

I see Magots as more of a "I'm turning you to stone until I catch up with you" although they're pretty fast...

Magots don't have any percentile to roll when a beam hits your metal armor or vehicle instead of you ,which makes me wonder whether or not they have to hit bare skin to work.

I would think the "eye contact" aspect of gorgons means armor doesn't matter at all, though "I'm watching her through a video camera not glass" stuff like Triax Armor might protect against it.

Fenris2020 · **Joined:** Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm **Posts:** 299

SolCannibal wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

I think you need to get the palladium fantasy books for that. iirc, someone told kevin he needed to separate the IP of the various settings. probably around the time he sold the rights for a rifts movie.

It's not a bad decision per se as it makes the setting more unique and consequently gives GMs even more pieces to mix & match.

That said my PF basic is a '98 printing - no idea if it has conversion notes for Rifts. Damn, doesn't even have basilisk stats, nor Monsters & Animals, that is even older.... Ok, old Conversion Book and some messing around it is.

Question - how macabre would it be for an adult Basilisk - in a lair riddled with literal centuries of petrified victims - to be a Stone Master, Earth Warlock or even both?

I suppose it would make the setting more unique or whatever, but... pretty much all of the dragon NPCs in the various books are types like Great Horned Dragon and so on.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:30 pm

Fenris2020 wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

I think you need to get the palladium fantasy books for that. iirc, someone told kevin he needed to separate the IP of the various settings. probably around the time he sold the rights for a rifts movie.

It's not a bad decision per se as it makes the setting more unique and consequently gives GMs even more pieces to mix & match.

That said my PF basic is a '98 printing - no idea if it has conversion notes for Rifts. Damn, doesn't even have basilisk stats, nor Monsters & Animals, that is even older.... Ok, old Conversion Book and some messing around it is.

Question - how macabre would it be for an adult Basilisk - in a lair riddled with literal centuries of petrified victims - to be a Stone Master, Earth Warlock or even both?

I suppose it would make the setting more unique or whatever, but... pretty much all of the dragon NPCs in the various books are types like Great Horned Dragon and so on.

Well, most of the those NPCs are from before RUE, the first book to replace PF dragons with new custom ones for Rifts, no?

Fenris2020 · **Joined:** Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm **Posts:** 299

SolCannibal wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

I think you need to get the palladium fantasy books for that. iirc, someone told kevin he needed to separate the IP of the various settings. probably around the time he sold the rights for a rifts movie.

It's not a bad decision per se as it makes the setting more unique and consequently gives GMs even more pieces to mix & match.

That said my PF basic is a '98 printing - no idea if it has conversion notes for Rifts. Damn, doesn't even have basilisk stats, nor Monsters & Animals, that is even older.... Ok, old Conversion Book and some messing around it is.

Question - how macabre would it be for an adult Basilisk - in a lair riddled with literal centuries of petrified victims - to be a Stone Master, Earth Warlock or even both?

I suppose it would make the setting more unique or whatever, but... pretty much all of the dragon NPCs in the various books are types like Great Horned Dragon and so on.

Well, most of the those NPCs are from before RUE, the first book to replace PF dragons with new custom ones for Rifts, no?

Yes, however, since the dragons are pre-existing types, it doesn't seem to leave much room for the newer types to really take over. I did notice that the one in Vampire Kingdoms got retconned to the new type, but she's the only one. I kind of doubt that anyone would be impressed with a Crested version of the Great Horned dragon on Atlantis (Styphothal I think?). A Crested dragon wouldn't be as dangerous, nor as intimidating.
Current Great Horned Ancient breathes fire, has a lot of spells, is black or near-black.
Crested Dragon Ancient would be pretty, and MIGHT be able to paralyze you, as long as you're not wearing EBA/ PA. And fail a save. May have about the same number of spells.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:22 am

Fenris2020 wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

I think you need to get the palladium fantasy books for that. iirc, someone told kevin he needed to separate the IP of the various settings. probably around the time he sold the rights for a rifts movie.

It's not a bad decision per se as it makes the setting more unique and consequently gives GMs even more pieces to mix & match.

That said my PF basic is a '98 printing - no idea if it has conversion notes for Rifts. Damn, doesn't even have basilisk stats, nor Monsters & Animals, that is even older.... Ok, old Conversion Book and some messing around it is.

Question - how macabre would it be for an adult Basilisk - in a lair riddled with literal centuries of petrified victims - to be a Stone Master, Earth Warlock or even both?

I suppose it would make the setting more unique or whatever, but... pretty much all of the dragon NPCs in the various books are types like Great Horned Dragon and so on.

Well, most of the those NPCs are from before RUE, the first book to replace PF dragons with new custom ones for Rifts, no?

Yes, however, since the dragons are pre-existing types, it doesn't seem to leave much room for the newer types to really take over. I did notice that the one in Vampire Kingdoms got retconned to the new type, but she's the only one. I kind of doubt that anyone would be impressed with a Crested version of the Great Horned dragon on Atlantis (Styphothal I think?). A Crested dragon wouldn't be as dangerous, nor as intimidating.
Current Great Horned Ancient breathes fire, has a lot of spells, is black or near-black.
Crested Dragon Ancient would be pretty, and MIGHT be able to paralyze you, as long as you're not wearing EBA/ PA. And fail a save. May have about the same number of spells.

That would logically come with more books to add draconic NPCs in the future (or retcon previous ones where Palladium links are vague to non-existent, i guess).

So one got retconned in Vampire Kingdoms? Do you mean Carlota from Reid's Rangers of somebody else? She's the one dragon in that book i remember.

Styphathal connects directly with Dragonwright and Palladium, so changing in his particular case would not make much sense.

My thoughts on the matter, at least for now.

Fenris2020 · **Joined:** Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm **Posts:** 299

Yes, that was Carlotta.
I can see how switching out the cold/ fire dragons would work fairly easily, and adding in the new types as NEW is good (because I am fine with having more types of dragons running around the Megaverse), but the Crested is never going to be a logical replacement for the Great Horned.
And they don't have any sort of replacement for my fave type, the Nightstalker.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:14 pm

Fenris2020 wrote:

Yes, that was Carlotta.
I can see how switching out the cold/ fire dragons would work fairly easily, and adding in the new types as NEW is good (because I am fine with having more types of dragons running around the Megaverse), but the Crested is never going to be a logical replacement for the Great Horned.

Must admit i never went into an actual comparison of the PF x RUE dragon races and analysis of how they riff from each other and it would be a fun thing to do.

Well, at the risk of being unfair to them, but what defines the Great Horneds beside being the most powerful of the dragon types?
Must admit i'm drawing a bit of a blank right now.

Fenris2020 wrote:

And they don't have any sort of replacement for my fave type, the Nightstalker.

I do like them and the hydras a lot too. Now it brings a good question to mind - how many Nightstalker NPCs are there, on either Rifts Earth or Palladium? I remember one in the book Siege on Tolkeen book that describes Freehold and that's pretty much the only one from memory.

Fenris2020 · **Joined:** Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm **Posts:** 299

SolCannibal wrote:

Fenris2020 wrote:

Yes, that was Carlotta.
I can see how switching out the cold/ fire dragons would work fairly easily, and adding in the new types as NEW is good (because I am fine with having more types of dragons running around the Megaverse), but the Crested is never going to be a logical replacement for the Great Horned.

Must admit i never went into an actual comparison of the PF x RUE dragon races and analysis of how they riff from each other and it would be a fun thing to do.

Well, at the risk of being unfair to them, but what defines the Great Horneds beside being the most powerful of the dragon types?
Must admit i'm drawing a bit of a blank right now.

Fenris2020 wrote:

And they don't have any sort of replacement for my fave type, the Nightstalker.

I do like them and the hydras a lot too. Now it brings a good question to mind - how many Nightstalker NPCs are there, on either Rifts Earth or Palladium? I remember one in the book Siege on Tolkeen book that describes Freehold and that's pretty much the only one from memory.

There was also one in the Mechanoids source-book.. I think one or two others.

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6051

*compares VK 108 to VS 49*
It sure is strange how "Carlotta the White" the Palladium Ice Dragon and "Carlotta la Blanca" the Snow Lizard Dragon both share the same Real Name.

It seems that in the 9 years that Raoul aged between books (from 25 to 34) that he swapped his previous love out for a very similar one that can't fly but can turn into snowstorms.

It's sort of unclear just how much time has passed though...

I'm thinking to say 9 years since that's the only shared number, and that Will and Raoul are the only ones who stayed put on Rifts Earth and didn't get up to dimensional shenanigans.

Both dragons also seem to have an atypical 7 lesser psi powers, despite both Ice/Snow dragons both beginning with 6 and getting 2 at 5th level... meaning somehow both women mysteriously either mysteriously lost a lesser psi power OR there is a "surprise" power the books have not revealed, and which might be different between them.

We may never know what happened to The White (perhaps La Blanca killed her?) but perhaps she perished heroically alongside Meetal and Meetal's daughter Deema found Blanca as a replacement.

Deema is 19 years old, meaning she would've been 10 years old during Vampire Kingdoms...(based on the '9 years passed' theory above) when Meetal was 29, meaning Meetal must've become a mother at 19 years old herself. Does this mean Deema may already have recently given birth to a secret daughter the books haven't told us about? Time may tell! I'm kind of wondering if Vyurr-Kly might be Deema's dad.

Fenris2020 · **Joined:** Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm **Posts:** 299

Axelmania wrote:

*compares VK 108 to VS 49*
It sure is strange how "Carlotta the White" the Palladium Ice Dragon and "Carlotta la Blanca" the Snow Lizard Dragon both share the same Real Name.

It seems that in the 9 years that Raoul aged between books (from 25 to 34) that he swapped his previous love out for a very similar one that can't fly but can turn into snowstorms.

It's sort of unclear just how much time has passed though...

I'm thinking to say 9 years since that's the only shared number, and that Will and Raoul are the only ones who stayed put on Rifts Earth and didn't get up to dimensional shenanigans.

Both dragons also seem to have an atypical 7 lesser psi powers, despite both Ice/Snow dragons both beginning with 6 and getting 2 at 5th level... meaning somehow both women mysteriously either mysteriously lost a lesser psi power OR there is a "surprise" power the books have not revealed, and which might be different between them.

We may never know what happened to The White (perhaps La Blanca killed her?) but perhaps she perished heroically alongside Meetal and Meetal's daughter Deema found Blanca as a replacement.

Deema is 19 years old, meaning she would've been 10 years old during Vampire Kingdoms...(based on the '9 years passed' theory above) when Meetal was 29, meaning Meetal must've become a mother at 19 years old herself. Does this mean Deema may already have recently given birth to a secret daughter the books haven't told us about? Time may tell! I'm kind of wondering if Vyurr-Kly might be Deema's dad.

Obviously, the Carlotta the White/ La Blanca is a retcon, but you make some good points with the ages and how many years have passed bit.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:02 pm

Simpler explanation to build up on the retcon? Carlota was misindentified as an ice dragon back then by someone more familiar with Palladium's dragons races and she didn't care to correct people until years later.

The strangeness in times passed for the multiple characters could relate to whatever chain of events resulted in the Lords of Xibalba being mostly taken out of the picture and Camazotz taking over them in Yucatan, with this one explains/waives temporal weirdness for the multiple 'ranger leaders while implying some major background event in the intervening years. Overall i stick to 9 years, as that would match to the 100-101 PA time from early worldbooks and the "present" of 109PA around SoT's Aftermath and Megaverse in Flames.

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6051

Huh... you know I only just noticed they seemed to have really boosted mummies/zombies in the Vampire Sourcebook.

Pg 44 Vulnerabilities "Only fire and explosives can hurt mummies" seemed new, but this does appear both on RUE 222 and RMB 185, so I guess I just never paid attention to how useful that probably is when fighting vampires, since wild vamps are probably too stupid to know to go grab a torch. Not to mention that Impervious to Fire could probably be cast on them, with sexy results.

Zombies on the other hand...
Pg 45 Vulnerabilities "High tech M.D. weapons such as lasers, ion blasts, particle beams, explosives, etc. also do half damage, but inflict M.D. as S.D.C. point for point."
Pg 46 (continued) "M.D. fire does full damage as S.D.C., point for point."

RMB187 / RUE 223 merely had "Normal electricity, lasers, particle beam weapons and similar energy weapons do half their normal damage" which isn't particularly helpful against MD weapons. I mean yeah, it probably means when hit by a 1MD blast instead of losing 100 SDC they'd lose 50 SDC, but when in the realm of 3+ MD they were going to get splatted regardless...

Conversion of MD tech to SDC seems to have been introduced exclusively here, and it makes me wonder if that's intended to be a standard feature of Create Zombie, or perhaps some kind of specialized enhancement that Planktal has been able to give to his, sort of like how Mystic Russia introduced some skeleton-buffing spells.

It also seems like you could still mist a zombie in the classic fashion when using non-tech weapons such as magic swords or even supernatural punches, so they're probably more useful against CS soldiers with limited gear than they are against vamps...

It might be smart to cast "Life Ward" (however ironic) on the remnants of MDC body armor they are clad in, to give them some moments of MD>SDC conversion from supernatural punches to prevent vamps from misting them soon as they crack the egg open.

Fenris2020 · **Joined:** Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:25 pm **Posts:** 299

SolCannibal wrote:

Simpler explanation to build up on the retcon? Carlota was misindentified as an ice dragon back then by someone more familiar with Palladium's dragons races and she didn't care to correct people until years later.

The strangeness in times passed for the multiple characters could relate to whatever chain of events resulted in the Lords of Xibalba being mostly taken out of the picture and Camazotz taking over them in Yucatan, with this one explains/waives temporal weirdness for the multiple 'ranger leaders while implying some major background event in the intervening years. Overall i stick to 9 years, as that would match to the 100-101 PA time from early worldbooks and the "present" of 109PA around SoT's Aftermath and Megaverse in Flames.

Well, since Ice Dragons have wings and can fly, that's a difficult miss-i.d.
Anyway, I hope they leave the rest of the dragons alone...

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:35 pm

Fenris2020 wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Simpler explanation to build up on the retcon? Carlota was misindentified as an ice dragon back then by someone more familiar with Palladium's dragons races and she didn't care to correct people until years later.

The strangeness in times passed for the multiple characters could relate to whatever chain of events resulted in the Lords of Xibalba being mostly taken out of the picture and Camazotz taking over them in Yucatan, with this one explains/waives temporal weirdness for the multiple 'ranger leaders while implying some major background event in the intervening years. Overall i stick to 9 years, as that would match to the 100-101 PA time from early worldbooks and the "present" of 109PA around SoT's Aftermath and Megaverse in Flames.

Well, since Ice Dragons have wings and can fly, that's a difficult miss-i.d.
Anyway, I hope they leave the rest of the dragons alone...

True, my bad, Snow Lizard Dragons are wingless and don't fly. I had it in my mind they could fly even thought wingless by manipulating wind, snow and blizzards along with transforming.
That's what i get for not checking out stuff (but then, neither did the retcon writer, i guess).

As an aside, probably going to make Snow Lizards fly by turning into "snowstorm elementals" when i do use one in game anyway.
Probably going to boost speed and radius, to 40 mph (64 kmh) and roughly a 200 foot/61 m respectively (still sdc), while at it too.

Blue_Lion · **Posted:** Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:37 am

Conversion book 1 unrivised. Dragons and gods.

SolCannibal · **Posted:** Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:43 pm

Blue_Lion wrote:

Conversion book 1 unrivised. Dragons and gods.

Is the D&G material a cut & paste of the Conversion Book one or does it add some info of its own on those types of dragon?

Axelmania · **Joined:** Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm **Posts:** 6051

I'm sure they did some minor tweaks, but I'm not sure how important they'd be.

Colonel_Tetsuya · **Joined:** Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am **Posts:** 5

SolCannibal wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Conversion book 1 unrivised. Dragons and gods.

Is the D&G material a cut & paste of the Conversion Book one or does it add some info of its own on those types of dragon?

Its updated with info for Palladium Fantasy, which adds some more detail to the CB1(ur) stats, but if you just had CB1(ur), you'd be fine.

Blue_Lion · **Posted:** Thu Dec 12, 2019 1:06 am

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

SolCannibal wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Conversion book 1 unrivised. Dragons and gods.

Is the D&G material a cut & paste of the Conversion Book one or does it add some info of its own on those types of dragon?

Its updated with info for Palladium Fantasy, which adds some more detail to the CB1(ur) stats, but if you just had CB1(ur), you'd be fine.

Honestly I hate how much was dropped from cb1 when they revised it. The original is a a better book.

Colonel_Tetsuya · **Joined:** Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am **Posts:** 5

Blue_Lion wrote:

Honestly I hate how much was dropped from cb1 when they revised it. The original is a a better book.

Not just dropped, but changed for no reason.

Wolfen lose their extra attack.... but gain Augmented Strength? (But PF and Space Wolfen still have the extra attack).

There were a BUNCH of changes in CB1r that dont jive with their incarnations in the game they are supposedly being "converted" from (and really, for the purely SDC creatures... why was 'Conversion' even necessary - all that really needed to be presented was how those native to Rifts could select OCCs and which ones).

The changes in the HU Power Conversions was broken as all get out as well.

But i agree 100%. CB1r was a wholly inferior, regressive book. It was going backwards.

I think the same (roughly) about SB1r. VKr is... OK (mostly its just more info... sorta... and then half the info was moved into a "Sourcebook" that is CLEARLY A WORLD BOOK because it details a geographic area...FFS Kevin) ... FoMr is... OK (i get the spells being omitted since they were now in the Book of Magic) since it added new info without changing or excising anything.

But ive found that "updated" or "revised" versions of Palladium Books tend to be... not needed and often regressive.

The Beast · **Posted:** Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:00 am

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Honestly I hate how much was dropped from cb1 when they revised it. The original is a a better book.

Not just dropped, but changed for no reason.

Wolfen lose their extra attack.... but gain Augmented Strength? (But PF and Space Wolfen still have the extra attack).

There were a BUNCH of changes in CB1r that dont jive with their incarnations in the game they are supposedly being "converted" from (and really, for the purely SDC creatures... why was 'Conversion' even necessary - all that really needed to be presented was how those native to Rifts could select OCCs and which ones).

The changes in the HU Power Conversions was broken as all get out as well.

But i agree 100%. CB1r was a wholly inferior, regressive book. It was going backwards.

I think the same (roughly) about SB1r. VKr is... OK (mostly its just more info... sorta... and then half the info was moved into a "Sourcebook" that is CLEARLY A WORLD BOOK because it details a geographic area...FFS Kevin) ... FoMr is... OK (i get the spells being omitted since they were now in the Book of Magic) since it added new info without changing or excising anything.

But ive found that "updated" or "revised" versions of Palladium Books tend to be... not needed and often regressive.

1st Ed PFRPF didn't use either PPE or SDC, and I'm not to sure if it used any of the PS categories other than the normal and strong ones as well.

Colonel_Tetsuya · **Joined:** Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:22 am **Posts:** 5

The Beast wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Honestly I hate how much was dropped from cb1 when they revised it. The original is a a better book.

Not just dropped, but changed for no reason.

Wolfen lose their extra attack.... but gain Augmented Strength? (But PF and Space Wolfen still have the extra attack).

There were a BUNCH of changes in CB1r that dont jive with their incarnations in the game they are supposedly being "converted" from (and really, for the purely SDC creatures... why was 'Conversion' even necessary - all that really needed to be presented was how those native to Rifts could select OCCs and which ones).

The changes in the HU Power Conversions was broken as all get out as well.

But i agree 100%. CB1r was a wholly inferior, regressive book. It was going backwards.

I think the same (roughly) about SB1r. VKr is... OK (mostly its just more info... sorta... and then half the info was moved into a "Sourcebook" that is CLEARLY A WORLD BOOK because it details a geographic area...FFS Kevin) ... FoMr is... OK (i get the spells being omitted since they were now in the Book of Magic) since it added new info without changing or excising anything.

But ive found that "updated" or "revised" versions of Palladium Books tend to be... not needed and often regressive.

1st Ed PFRPF didn't use either PPE or SDC, and I'm not to sure if it used any of the PS categories other than the normal and strong ones as well.

I was mostly referring to CB1r.

By that time, PF was on PF2 and used SDC, etc. The "modern" Palladium system. The only thing that really needed to be converted at that time was potential supernatural beings (to MDC).

Prysus · **Posted:** Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:58 pm

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Not just dropped, but changed for no reason.

Wolfen lose their extra attack.... but gain Augmented Strength? (But PF and Space Wolfen still have the extra attack).

There were a BUNCH of changes in CB1r that dont jive with their incarnations in the game they are supposedly being "converted" from (and really, for the purely SDC creatures... why was 'Conversion' even necessary - all that really needed to be presented was how those native to Rifts could select OCCs and which ones).

Greetings and Salutations. *Perks up head.* Did someone mention PF? So a few notes ...

1: Wolfen don't have an extra attack in PF, despite your claim. So CB1r would bring that MORE in line with the other incarnation they're being converted from. Note: Not sure about Space Wolfen as that's a Rifts thing, but since that's not the source of the conversion they're not really relevant either.

2: From what I can tell, Bionic Strength (a.k.a. Augmented, but CB1r uses the term Bionic) is takes the place of Giant Strength in PF. Giant Strength is a thing in PF2, though from what I can tell it only increases a character's throwing range. This is why Ogres also have Bionic Strength, as do some of the True Giants. From the races I checked, if the giant race doesn't have Supernatural Strength, then it has Bionic Strength. So they translated "Giant Strength" into the Rifts equivalent, Bionic/Augmented.

As for the need for the CB1r, I'll agree unless the creature becomes M.D. or stats altered drastically (Creatures of Magic and Supernatural Beings, mostly), then it doesn't need to be in a Conversion Book. However, I do see the advantage to collecting various races from various books and putting them into one easy to find place for people who may not play the PF line. CB1r kind of acts like a Rifts Bestiary. Should it be called a conversion book? Probably not for that alone. But, well, CB2 is a bunch of gods and goddesses that weren't actually converted from any of their settings at all (unless the argument is that they were converted from real mythology, in which case what constitutes a "conversion" book grows considerably larger). All this means is that Palladium doesn't always label their books correctly (such as Vampire Kingdoms which you mentioned earlier being a World Book in your opinion).

Hope some of that clarifies at least a few things. I may not agree with everything Palladium does, but these specific issues seem justifiable. Farewell and safe journeys.

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