Looking for help with a bit o FoM book trivia

[SolCannibal]

Hello people, was just giving WB 16 tonight and while skimming the write-up of Dragonbane (Kzaa's Dragon Juicer bodyguard) ended up noticing some curious bits that got my attention.

The Dragon Juicer also loves to spend time hunting dragons and dinosaurs. Partly to collect their blood, but mostly because many dragons are part of the Cult of Dragonwright, and others are rogues preying on innocent folk and fellow inhabitants of the Magic Zone . When Kzaa has a pesky, young dragon or powerful menace he wants to be rid of, he sends Dragonbane out to dispatch the nuisance.

Are there dinosaurs in the Magic Zone or is the region closer to Dinosaur Swamp than i remember?
Because dinos in the Magic Zone could lead to interesting things, imho.

Also, it's more my wild imagination than anything, but now i'm thinking of Kzaa "cutting" the dragon's blood he sells with MDC dinosaurs blood for the sake of make larger reserves for lower prices and that's bloody hilarious.

Ohhh, "horsemanship: exotic 70%" guess who might be a dino rider on his off-time.


The fact Dragonbane has a personal stake against, not to say outright hate-on, for Dragonwright while not exactly a shocking reveal considering his OCC, does make a little surprise and add a good bit personality beyond robotically loyal to his boss.

In fact the text paints it in a somewhat positive, defender of little folk, light, one that makes for a very good hook to catch a PC group off-guard, introducing Dragonbane as a fellow wandering adventurer battling dragons and their worshippers wherever he goes across the Magic Zone, to only much later reveal his connection to and high status in Stormspire. The fact he has Dragonese/Elven at 98% seems to reinforce the idea he is a person used to a life among magical communities.

Another thing that caught my attention is the mention that he has been Kzaa's bodyguard since 19 - about 10 years as he's 29 years old - and been a dragon juicer only in the last 3. Guessing his levels in whatever Man-at-Arms OCC he previously had were just converted to juicer levels for convenience.... Or do you think i should give some Headhunter, Scout or whatever levels too?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Federation of Magic is in Ohio, Dinosaur Swamp is in Georgia and Florida. Nowhere close to each-other. But remember that Dinosaurs exist all over North America, not just in the Swamp, they're merely present in the largest numbers in Dinosaur swamp. Heck, they're so common they're one of the origional random encounter tables in the Rifts Main Book. They pop up everywhere.

[SolCannibal]

Federation of Magic is in Ohio, Dinosaur Swamp is in Georgia and Florida. Nowhere close to each-other. But remember that Dinosaurs exist all over North America, not just in the Swamp, they're merely present in the largest numbers in Dinosaur swamp. Heck, they're so common they're one of the origional random encounter tables in the Rifts Main Book. They pop up everywhere.

That is what i wanted to hear, actually. Well, i can certainly work with the idea of MDC dinosaurs being common enough in the Magic Zone to lead to confusion with dragons. And between us, who's to say some of them are not, considering Wooly Dragons, Hidras & Cockatrice are pretty bestial?

Or the existence of feathered dragons like the Kukulcan & (again) Cockatrice?

[Nekira Sudacne]

Federation of Magic is in Ohio, Dinosaur Swamp is in Georgia and Florida. Nowhere close to each-other. But remember that Dinosaurs exist all over North America, not just in the Swamp, they're merely present in the largest numbers in Dinosaur swamp. Heck, they're so common they're one of the origional random encounter tables in the Rifts Main Book. They pop up everywhere.

That is what i wanted to hear, actually. Well, i caan certainly work with the idea of MDC dinosaurs being common enough in the Magic Zone to lead to confusion with dragons. And between us, who's to say some of them are not, considering Wooly Dragons, Hidras & Cockatrice are pretty bestial?

Or the existence of feathered dragons like the Kukulcan & (again) Cockatrice?

Well...mostly because Dragons are creatures of magic with various innate and very well defined powers, even beastial ones, and Dinosaurs are not and do not?

If your saying the ignorant might confuse a Wooly dragon for a Dinosaur or something, sure, that might explain some of it.

[SolCannibal]

Federation of Magic is in Ohio, Dinosaur Swamp is in Georgia and Florida. Nowhere close to each-other. But remember that Dinosaurs exist all over North America, not just in the Swamp, they're merely present in the largest numbers in Dinosaur swamp. Heck, they're so common they're one of the origional random encounter tables in the Rifts Main Book. They pop up everywhere.

That is what i wanted to hear, actually. Well, i caan certainly work with the idea of MDC dinosaurs being common enough in the Magic Zone to lead to confusion with dragons. And between us, who's to say some of them are not, considering Wooly Dragons, Hidras & Cockatrice are pretty bestial?

Or the existence of feathered dragons like the Kukulcan & (again) Cockatrice?

Well...mostly because Dragons are creatures of magic with various innate and very well defined powers, even beastial ones, and Dinosaurs are not and do not?

Well, i might argue with the "very well-defined powers" in light of how individual species might break from the mold in a variety of ways but i agree it's a slippery slope to get into.

If your saying the ignorant might confuse a Wooly dragon for a Dinosaur or something, sure, that might explain some of it.

A little bit of this, but also a little bit of "what if some dinosaur species ARE minor obscure brands of dragon and no major group of scholars or sages has researched things enough to update the learned?" among other things - like Rifts Earth dinos being totally in the "big lizard" camp, that is seen at least partly as outdated/wrong info nowadays by paleontologists, what brings a number of questions to mind.

Anyway, lots of room for a GM to mess with, i guess.

Hmm, RMB dinos are MDC too - funny that, for some reason i remembered them as being SDC.
But whatever, them being MDC is much better from a "fake dragon" PoV.

[Curbludgeon]

While the eastern borders of the Magic Zone extend down into central TN, from the location of Stormspire in FoM (Lexington, KY near Soulharvest, although it can move) to the Horror Forest of N. Georgia is 300 miles, through some d-shifting territory. I probably wouldn't put too much emphasis on dinosaurs in the Central Preserve region, but don't know if the new bestiary has anything to say about that.

[SolCannibal]

While the eastern borders of the Magic Zone extend down into central TN, from the location of Stormspire in FoM (Lexington, KY near Soulharvest, although it can move) to the Horror Forest of N. Georgia is 300 miles, through some d-shifting territory.

Horror Forest? Not familiar with the term/locale.

I probably wouldn't put too much emphasis on dinosaurs in the Central Preserve region, but don't know if the new bestiary has anything to say about that.

Nah, nothing too overkill - 'Zone ain't Dinossaur Swamp - just enough padding to confound and conflate with the draconic population a bit - with maybe for a bit of fun, the occasional obscure (homebrew) species of dragon that gets confused with dinossaurs or an actual dinossaur mutant with psychic powers ruling a village of Dragonwright who can't see a difference.

Also thinking that Kzaa, unashamed enterpreneur (swindler) that he is, might try some side business of sorts like selling tamed dinossaurs or cockatrices, whose intellligence level is in a kind of grey area between cunning animals like gryphons or malignous and stupid Dbees....

Damn, Conversion Book says "Understands and speaks a guttural dialect of Gobblely and Dragonese/Elven at 90%" - so, yeah, stupid Dbee it is there goes my idea of Psi-stalkers or Simvan domesticating basilisks.

Hmmm, maybe not something mundane/silly like a cockatrice farm, but maybe some deal with Dragonwright cultists where they live confortable existences as favored mounts of knights and priests and pampered temple guardians.... guess that could work.

[Axelmania]

I'm thinking that a bunch of stupid dragon juicers are just failing their Lore : Demons & Monsters (or whatever is appropriate) and just can't tell dragons and dinos apart so they just kill them all and bring their corpses back to the experts to sort out what is appropriate fuel.

[SolCannibal]

I'm thinking that a bunch of stupid dragon juicers are just failing their Lore : Demons & Monsters (or whatever is appropriate) and just can't tell dragons and dinos apart so they just kill them all and bring their corpses back to the experts to sort out what is appropriate fuel.

Nah, just something sparked by the blurb in FoM about Dragonbane hunting dragons AND dinossaurs across the Magic Zone (not exactly somethinng the region is known for) at times and me jotting down some possible ideas or hooks to throw in my PCs' path out of the possibility of dinossaurs being about as "common" as dragons in the area & such.

[Mlp7029]

I'm thinking that a bunch of stupid dragon juicers are just failing their Lore : Demons & Monsters (or whatever is appropriate) and just can't tell dragons and dinos apart so they just kill them all and bring their corpses back to the experts to sort out what is appropriate fuel.

Nah, just something sparked by the blurb in FoM about Dragonbane hunting dragons AND dinossaurs across the Magic Zone (not exactly ssomethinng the region is known for) at times and me jotting down some possible ideas or hooks to throw in my PCs' path out of the possibility of dinossaurs being about as "common" as dragons in the area & such.

I would attribute the dinosaur entry to author inconsistency as dinosaur blood has no use with Dragon Juicers. The comment about cutting the dragon blood with dinosaur blood was pretty hilarious.

[taalismn]

I'm thinking that a bunch of stupid dragon juicers are just failing their Lore : Demons & Monsters (or whatever is appropriate) and just can't tell dragons and dinos apart so they just kill them all and bring their corpses back to the experts to sort out what is appropriate fuel.

And then they encounter an actual dragon(or three), as their chemical reserves are drying up. Between their mistaken bravado at killing 'dragons' earlier and their run-down chemical power, cue the collective 'OHSHI-' moment.
Especially if the dragons are of the tool-using, heavy-artillery-luvin' persuasion.

[SolCannibal]

I'm thinking that a bunch of stupid dragon juicers are just failing their Lore : Demons & Monsters (or whatever is appropriate) and just can't tell dragons and dinos apart so they just kill them all and bring their corpses back to the experts to sort out what is appropriate fuel.

Nah, just something sparked by the blurb in FoM about Dragonbane hunting dragons AND dinossaurs across the Magic Zone (not exactly ssomethinng the region is known for) at times and me jotting down some possible ideas or hooks to throw in my PCs' path out of the possibility of dinossaurs being about as "common" as dragons in the area & such.

I would attribute the dinosaur entry to author inconsistency as dinosaur blood has no use with Dragon Juicers. The comment about cutting the dragon blood with dinosaur bloodv was pretty hilarious.

Just to clear it up, the author just said Dragonbane hunted dragons and dinossaurs with no deeper discussion of motives. The bits about the guy having a hate-on for Dragonwright & dragons in general due to a past of oppression by them is totally an extrapolation of mine - much like the idea about cutting the dragon blood with dinosaur blood. Waste not, want not, you know.

I'm thinking that a bunch of stupid dragon juicers are just failing their Lore : Demons & Monsters (or whatever is appropriate) and just can't tell dragons and dinos apart so they just kill them all and bring their corpses back to the experts to sort out what is appropriate fuel.

And then they encounter an actual dragon(or three), as their chemical reserves are drying up. Between their mistaken bravado at killing 'dragons' earlier and their run-down chemical power, cue the collective 'OHSHI-' moment.
Especially if the dragons are of the tool-using, heavy-artillery-luvin' persuasion.

Or not - some dragons are pretty arrogant and overconfident about their natural abilities, intelligence notwithstanding.

[Curbludgeon]

I could see someone confusing, say, a Spitfire Leaper (WB26p33) for a dragon.

Tangentially related to the idea of a dragon juicer adulterating their supply with dinosaur blood is there being a different sort of pseudo-Juicer that specifically relies upon extracts from various monsters. Looking at the different sorts of juicer/juicerish classes, along with the source of their modifications, might suggest some ideas.

Juicer: Conventional science
Dragon Juicer: Techno-Wizardry
Murder-Wraith: Necromancy
Maxi-Juicer: Bio-Wizardry
Songjuicer: general/unspecified magic

Some forms of magic already have associated augmented warrior classes (Temporal, Shadow, Crystal, Line Magic, Soulmancy) or Juicer-like RCCs (the Elemental Yaganar). I think some combination of Shamanic Magic and Eco-Wizardry could thematically justify an Alchemical Juicer as being sort of a spiritually unattuned version of an Animal Man-Monster, recklessly slathering mixtures of Fury Beetle bile and Xiticix spleen on their mucus membranes.

Independent of that, I think Faerie Magic is another form of magic that could stand some class-love, in a different way than via the Splugorth. I suppose I see that as more of a Faerie Knight, arising among either the few humans in Ireland or the hundreds of thousands of Formorian slaves in Scotland.

[kaid]

It seems as though dinosaurs of at least some varieties are pretty much endemic throughout NA. We have a lot of evidence of them both in the east and the west and given the magic zones location I would find it pretty expected they get at least some types of dinosaurs that roam that area. Their southern border gets close to the swampy areas down south and given the raise in sea level would make most of that area pretty favorable to them. Also with the enormous amount of rifting behavior the magic zone pretty much by definition is going to have a lot of random 'stuff' constantly dumped out by various rifts.

[SolCannibal]

I could see someone confusing, say, a Spitfire Leaper (WB26p33) for a dragon.

Wouldn't say the Spitfire per se, that is about the size of a lynx or large bobcat, but some larger cousin of sorts for certain. Might even cook it up one of those days.

Tangentially related to the idea of a dragon juicer adulterating their supply with dinosaur blood is there being a different sort of pseudo-Juicer that specifically relies upon extracts from various monsters. Looking at the different sorts of juicer/juicerish classes, along with the source of their modifications, might suggest some ideas.

Juicer: Conventional science
Dragon Juicer: Techno-Wizardry
Murder-Wraith: Necromancy
Maxi-Juicer: Bio-Wizardry
Songjuicer: general/unspecified magic

Some forms of magic already have associated augmented warrior classes (Temporal, Shadow, Crystal, Line Magic, Soulmancy) or Juicer-like RCCs (the Elemental Yaganar). I think some combination of Shamanic Magic and Eco-Wizardry could thematically justify an Alchemical Juicer as being sort of a spiritually unattuned version of an Animal Man-Monster, recklessly slathering mixtures of Fury Beetle bile and Xiticix spleen on their mucus membranes.

Who knows what kind of weird colaterals could cutting - or outright replacing - dragon's blood with that of other critters might have in an individual juicer. In my own games i mentioned "Demonbanes" as an semi-obscure european equivalent of the Dragon Juicer (with greater demons & demon lords as "donors" instead of hatchlings or adult dragons, but pretty much the same overall). The first guy to actually reach a level to require demon lord blood being still around and a semi-mythic figure known as the Demon-Eater.

[Axelmania]

Perhaps dinosaurs are killed to turn into MDC armor to wear when battling dragons?

[SolCannibal]

Perhaps dinosaurs are killed to turn into MDC armor to wear when battling dragons?

Certainly, but making armor out of MDC monster hides is so basic i glossed it over without even noticing.

[Axelmania]

Or hm... perhaps they stuff the dinosaurs and set them out as bait for dragons during mating season.

[Orin J.]

Or hm... perhaps they stuff the dinosaurs and set them out as bait for dragons during mating season.

I was gonna remind you dragons are intelligent, sapient individuals, but i know at least two people that've hit on inanimate objects because they weren't paying attention so.....

[Nekira Sudacne]

Or hm... perhaps they stuff the dinosaurs and set them out as bait for dragons during mating season.

Wouldn't work. Dragons have an ability to automatically sense any other dragon in a long range, so they cannot be fooled by any disguise. They can easially tell if the being they're looking at is a dragon or not.

[SolCannibal]

Or hm... perhaps they stuff the dinosaurs and set them out as bait for dragons during mating season.

Wouldn't work. Dragons have an ability to automatically sense any other dragon in a long range, so they cannot be fooled by any disguise. They can easily tell if the being they're looking at is a dragon or not.

Yes, and most dragon-hunters worth their salt probably would have stories about comic, tragic or tragicomic results of any such "dinos in drag" plans done by inexperienced wannabe dragon slayers.

That said, it's also quite interesting from a setting standpoint that there might be some kind of innate quality that identifies dragons as such for each other, even from different races/species, matter of what might this quality be or its origin or the additional possibility of things that while similar in many ways and capacities are not "true" dragons, like Plumed Serpents, Ukt water serpents and other related beings in Spirit West, or "true dragons" that seem like pitiable parodies of their more formidable cousins, like hydras, wooly dragons, basilisks, cockatrice or deevil dragons (that got an upgrade by becoming what they are).

[Axelmania]

Wouldn't work. Dragons have an ability to automatically sense any other dragon in a long range, so they cannot be fooled by any disguise. They can easially tell if the being they're looking at is a dragon or not.

Do you recall where you saw this?

RMBp98 mentions they don't tolerate other dragons within their territory (the 50 mile area surrounding it... not sure if that refers to 50 square miles, 50 mile radius or 50 mile diameter though... "area" is always weird-sounding) or sometimes within 100 miles (that's clearly a radius extension, whatever the prior means)

This is also on RUE 157-158 and D&G 16-17

I don't actually see anything about automatically sensing dragons within that range though...

Checked D+G pg 12 since that book had added some new abilities for dragons (mostly for adults, dimensional stuff) but the only relevant thing I can think of is their ability to sense dimensional teleportation within a half-mile, which might tip them off to dragons using that kind of transportation.

Unless I'm blind to something obvious, it sounds like they'd have to rely on usual psychic/magic means to unearth other dragons. Are you maybe thinking of Nightbane?