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 Post subject: Regarding Revolvers…
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:13 am
  

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Ok, while doing research on an article I’m considering writing I re-introduced myself to the idea that revolver tech was not only in existence decades prior to the Civil War, but so were carbine and full smooth-bore and rifled long barreled “revolvers.” So, prior to the merging of WP’s Revolver and Pistol into Handguns, would revolver carbines and rifles be considered part of revolvers (as many of them used the exact same designs for the core, just adding a stock and longer barrels), rifles, or actually part of their own WP’s? And this is both on the modern AND their “Black powder” predecessors.

A good example of what I’m talking about is presented in the movie “3:10 to Yuma.” One of the bad guys I have read used a cartridge converted .44 1833 Army revolver with a full length targeting sight.

It might be surprising, but gun makers (both company and individual makers) are making carbines and rifles even today.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:22 am
  

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There are reasons I tend to divide WPs into Handguns and Long Arms instead of Revolver, Pistol and Rifle. This is one of them.

For unmodified Palladium, I use WP Revolver to cover handgun style weapons with Rifle covering longer wWeapons with an attached stock.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:16 pm
  

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Maybe the WP Revolver can be turned into a weapons specialization instead of being a a WP.

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Unread postPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:03 am
  

D-Bee

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drewkitty ~..~ wrote:
Maybe the WP Revolver can be turned into a weapons specialization instead of being a a WP.


This. I would have a specific skill in revolvers be a weapon specialization such as those found in The Rifter issue #30... though I notice that those rules only cover melee weapons, bows and crossbows, there's no Firearms Speciality/Firearms Mastery.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:25 pm
  

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:44 am
  

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Palladium's weapons proficiencies concerning handguns for the Rifts line have always been wrong. In 1st Edition, W.P. Revolver was fine, but there was no W.P. for semi-auto pistols. There was, however, a "W.P. Automatic Pistol" (page 32) that explained how it covered pistols that kept firing as long as the trigger was pressed... like a machine pistol (Glock 18 comes to mind). It was very strange there was no W.P. to cover semi-auto pistols, which is the vast majority and bread and butter of all non-revolver handguns. Perhaps in the Rifts world ALL magazine-fed handguns are automatic? Likely written by someone who doesn't understand firearms.

Then in Rifts Ultimate Edition, the W.P. Revolver went away as did the W.P. Automatic Pistol. They were combined to make "W.P. Handguns." Interestingly, the fallacy of all pistols being automatic and firing multiple bullets as long as the trigger is depressed is carried over. Nowhere in there does it mention a W.P. for semi-automatic handguns or anything about semi-automatic handguns at all. The good news? At least good news for me... I don't play Rifts (but I own the books for reasons unknown). Sorry all you guys who do have to live with that abomination of a weapons rule. I didn't mean to go into a full-blown history lesson on that, but I had fun researching it and going through my 26 year-old Rifts 1st Ed. book as I typed.

So check this out-My beloved Heroes Unlimited 2nd Ed. has the separate weapon proficiencies "W.P. Revolver" and "W.P. Semi-Automatic Pistol," AND they both accurately describe the firearms they encompass (semi-automatic pistols are described as firing as quickly as the trigger is pulled). Why am I so happy there are two separate W.P.s? Because revolvers and semi-auto pistols are very different. I have extensive training with semi-auto handguns, however I remember an experience I had with a revolver that I'll never forget. When I tried to load, fire, then reload the revolver, I was a hot mess. That's AFTER I had been shooting semi-auto handguns for years. Prior to that, I had shot a revolver once... years before and even then, only a few rounds. This last time, I had to slow down considerably and figure out what the hell I was doing to just plink at a target. It wasn't so much the actual firing of it, but the overall manipulation. Simply loading the thing felt profoundly foreign to me. I had ZERO muscle memory (aka weapons proficiency) to draw upon.

I can quickly load a semi-auto pistol, charge it, accurately fire it, smoothly reload it, and if need be, clear out a malfunction and get back to firing in very little time. I even learned how to strip out a magazine, clear out a malfunction, work the action and reload it using only my non-dominant hand. Translating that into gamespeak, THAT'S what a weapons proficiency allows a character to do in a game.

And I disagree with treating all long guns the same and all handguns the same. Shotguns are long guns, but they function and shoot much differently than a rifle, even if they're both semi-auto. I also have a lot of experience with both pump action shotguns and AR-patterned rifles and they need to be treated for what they are, which are two completely different animals. There are tons of things that are different about them, including their feed systems, how their safeties function, their trigger control groups (although this even differs among shotguns and also among rifles!), how both weapons' points of aim differ from their points of impact, blah, blah, blah... I could go on and on with other boring, but critically important comparisons.

To offer insight on Talon Starblade's question about which W.P. covers revolver carbines, I think that question is a good one. Although that type of firearm is an anomaly, in the end, I believe a person proficient in revolvers would have an easier time shooting it without prior experience with it. Why? Because its feed system and trigger mechanism are based on a revolver design. The stock is a secondary feature meant to help steady it when firing and also enable it to have such a long sight radius (the distance between the rear and front sights). The principals used to aim it are the same as those for a normal revolver.

If you really have your heart set on using that weapon, my advice as a gamer would be to work with the GM and ask what W.P. would be more applicable.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:10 am
  

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Comment: Being a moderator doesn't mean I speak for Palladium Books. It just makes me the lifeguard at their pool.
On the flip side, which WP would an AR-15 pistol fall under?

There are always corner cases in firearms design and function that any hard and fast categorization will struggle with.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:30 am
  

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Jefffar wrote:
On the flip side, which WP would an AR-15 pistol fall under?

There are always corner cases in firearms design and function that any hard and fast categorization will struggle with.

I would categorize that under W.P. Rifle. That weapon has more in common with the AR-15 operating system than it would any semi-auto handgun on the market. Again, somewhat of an anomoly. Yes, there will always be those. I'd also run that by the GM before picking skills if I wanted my character to use one.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:15 pm
  

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Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
On the flip side, which WP would an AR-15 pistol fall under?

There are always corner cases in firearms design and function that any hard and fast categorization will struggle with.

I would categorize that under W.P. Rifle. That weapon has more in common with the AR-15 operating system than it would any semi-auto handgun on the market. Again, somewhat of an anomoly. Yes, there will always be those. I'd also run that by the GM before picking skills if I wanted my character to use one.


Agreed.

I might require BOTH proficiencies for full bonuses, though, because neither proficiency in its own right would prepare you properly.
Then again, I haven't fired an AR-pistol, so I can't say for certain.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:34 pm
  

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Killer Cyborg wrote:
Jack Burton wrote:
Jefffar wrote:
On the flip side, which WP would an AR-15 pistol fall under?

There are always corner cases in firearms design and function that any hard and fast categorization will struggle with.

I would categorize that under W.P. Rifle. That weapon has more in common with the AR-15 operating system than it would any semi-auto handgun on the market. Again, somewhat of an anomoly. Yes, there will always be those. I'd also run that by the GM before picking skills if I wanted my character to use one.


Agreed.

I might require BOTH proficiencies for full bonuses, though, because neither proficiency in its own right would prepare you properly.
Then again, I haven't fired an AR-pistol, so I can't say for certain.

They're not the easiest things in the world to use. You're probably right about requiring both weapon proficiencies to take advantage of the bonuses.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:38 pm
  

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Comment: Being a moderator doesn't mean I speak for Palladium Books. It just makes me the lifeguard at their pool.
As another system put it, Weapon Proficiency Exotic

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:01 am
  

Hero

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I prefer the handgun/rifle split, as it makes non-energy weapons slightly more balanced as far as WPs go. Now, if we had WP laser, WP ion, WP plasma, etc, then I'd feel differently.

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