Forums of the Megaverse®

Do all these forms of Str stack? If you get Supernatural str and Extraordinary Str, do you stack their values?

You can only have one kind of strength by rule, though some people house rule otherwise.

correct, RAW is they do not stack, so the idea of stacking all three to make a character even stronger is out. Also note that Supernatural Strength doesn't get influenced by Physical skills.

That latter part is probably one of the most ignored/house ruled away restrictions in the game.

They don't stack. You can't emulate the strength levels that appear in comics and still have a balanced game. Supernatural Strength is good enough for my players, especially since it has drawbacks that they tend to crush and damage things accidentally.

We'll just have to agree to disagree there. Most super systems handle great strength just fine.

I'm just telling you that's how I as a GM balance things out. In general Palladium games tend to be a little unbalanced.

I believe there is a rule that says no ... but I would ignore that rule, since it's easy enough to find other powers to get a strength bonus instead. Yes they'll likely have less strength that route and be better balanced, but if they just want to be super strong I say let them without playing any games.

Actually this is very clearly defined in the books as a definite "NO"

It has no wiggle room. No cleverly worded sentence that might let you get around it. Nothing of the sort.

It's one of the few -clear- rules about such things and it states quite clearly that you can -NOT- stack strength powers.

To quote Heroes Unlimited Game Master Guide. Page 9
"Note: Only one type of Super-Strength can be possessed by any character. One can not select two or all three and add their bonuses together. Re-roll if more than one Super-Strength turns up when randomly determining super abilities; the G.M. may allow the player to keep the P.S. he prefers and discard/ignore the other. Before we leave this discussion of P.S., the strength of a mystically bestowed character when transformed should be Superhuman (supernatural only if the Game Master allows)"

So not only is it not allowed it's directly addressed and specifically pointed out in the Game Master guide as not being allowed, on a page that goes into depth about the different levels of strength and why they're there etc.

Admittedly, i haven't read HU2 in a while, but that is ... really dumb.

Then again, i think having 3 different strength powers is kinda stupid too.

Should only be two, the minor one (Extraordinary) and the Major (Supernatural), or if there are going to be three, have two major:

Superhuman (very high regular PS)

Supernatural (lower PS, but supernatural, so you can carry/life more, is enhanced by magic potentially, hurts creatures that are only hurt by magic).

As it stands, i would (as a house rule) let Superhuman or Supernatural stack with Extraordinary - as IIRC Extraordinary just sets it to a (relatively static) number and the other two add large rolls. So if you wanted to blow two powers on it to get the base 20+X that Extraordinary PS gets you + the bonus from eitehr Superhuman or Supernatural.. OK.

I wouldn't say the "books", basically it was perfectly legal to do in HU2 until the GMG singularly outlawed it.

There are powers which add PS bonuses besides Ext/SH/SN so the ruling doesn't really make much sense to begin with IMO, you can still reach big totals through other means.

The game master guide was published 20 years ago. "oh.. well.... I mean.. Ahem... until the GM guide came out..."

20 years ago. Literally. Any attempt at that argument, would be put to rest, two... --decades-- ago when it was specifically addressed in print.

March 1998 to June 1999 is a 15-month gap where it was legal, is all I'm saying

Yeah, agreed. If you don't have that book that 'key' rule is missing. Also, it doesn't include powers that boost STR in other ways, of which there are many!

Claiming ignorance of a rule literally out for decades isn't a 'defense'. The rule is published, and well known.

When discussing rules one doesn't base the debate on "Wellllllllllllll for a few months 20 years ago, prior to rules clarification, which was also published 20 years ago you could twink out stuff and do it this way"

Because.. we no longer live in that time frame two decades ago and the rules WERE clarified to prevent exactly this sort of dumb twinkery

No, where it was still against the rules, but wasn't spelled OUT.
But they went and spelled it out because even though it seemed obvious that you can't take the same power (strength) more than once... people were doing that so they had to specifically address this specific problem.
It was never "legal"

Unfortunatly Palladium isn't most systems.
The way Palladium calculates so many things that derive off of strength once you get over PS scores of around 40-50 you start getting into "breaking the system" level problems. For example a character who can pick up a good sized tank, is a hypersonic roller-skater/swimmer/bicyclist.

Eli's not wrong. Palladium's HU 'Says" it's made to build any kind of Super hero.

But in reality the strongest ones in palladium have a hard time replicating C list comic heroes. Almost impossible to replicate B list comic heroes and A list heroes are so far beyond the rules as to be almost comedic.

What you can do is build homages to the heroes you like. you just have to accept the limitations of the system.

I wouldn't say well known, I've peeked in HUGMG lots of times and didn't remember seeing it until you pointed it out. It's possible a lot of people also play mostly using core book.


It wasn't a clarification, it was a change.


If it wasn't spelled out, it wasn't a rule.

A good example of this would be HU2's prohibition against using multiple APS-style powers (not just explicitly "Alter Physical Structure" but other stuff like Bio-Armor Multiple Selves / Tentacles which conceptually seem entirely compatible)

As far as I know, there wasn't anything like pg 74's "Combining Super Abilities" in the original Heroes Unlimited, so the prohibitions introduced in HU2 were not against the rules in the original HU or HUrevised.

So for example, if we look at powers on HU2p74 prohibited combining which are present in the original HU, it should be canon to make a Animal Metamorphosis: Horse + Giant + Stretching and call yourself "Mega Pokey Express", whereas you can no longer simultaneously activate those 3 powers in HU2 because of a rules CHANGE (not "clarification").


Even HUrevised (p33) had the "a skill can only be chosen once" for Physical Skills preventing the use of "buy Bodybuilding fifty times" to try and get there, sadly. HU2p55 still has a similar "a specific physical skill may only be chosen once".

I'm wondering if any of Palladium's games (possibly an older one) might've omitted that to give an "in" for multi-Bodybuilding solve to this problem.

N&SS chi masters are probably the solution for getting temporary massive PS scores.

PU1p34 "Lifting Field" probably gives the highest amounts but it doesn't even seem like it could benefit from the higher inherent multipliers of Superhuman/Supernatural strength since it seems like it just replaces it with a PSx500 carrying capacity... rather than just being a multipler.

Since x500 is x50 relative to the basic x10, I think I'd prefer for Lifting Field to be "lift 50x as much as normal" so that it could stack...

That or at bare minimum we make this PSx500 additive to their normal carrying capacity. It doesn't explicitly say it REPLACES your normal lifting, so I don't see why we couldn't do that.

Actually It makes a lii sense to have 3 as in rifts , super human is treated robotic strength which i use for bots in HU. which is greater then normal and Extraordinary which is treated as cybernetic in rifts but weaker then supernatural. This is from Rifts conversion book one revised 2002.

And in marvel comics they had so many levels for strength like spider man was a class 10 thor was class 100 thor with his belt was in class y , thing class 80 . some were in like class 5000 of corse that was years ago no idea how it is now.

"So many"? You mean how much they can lift?

How much a character can lift and how much damage they can do do not have to be linked. Or at least they don't have to be linked linearly. That's the problem with PB, they made the weight lifted equation linear instead of some other method.

How would you change that? Seems to me that both melee damage and lift capacity should be related.

In super hero games there is clearly a disconnect though.
You get people punching that do the same damage with their punches...
but one guy can pick up a motorcycle, one picks up cars, one pick up tanks and one throws battleships.

The big reason to decouple them is that it means you get a binary option
Either (pick one)
You declare that you will not allow people to have the strength to pick up even large trucks let alone cars, which is unsatisfying to many people.
or
You declare that anyone who chooses super strength as their power automatically gets the "I win button" and is now the only person who matters in the game.
Because in a game, unlike in the comics you can't control how that strength is used. You can't simply say "you have all this strength but as the man of <whatever> you will never use it except against the other super duper foes.
Thus if you are handing out +500(or more) damage bonuses to PCs as their super power then everyone else is going to ask "why am I bothering playing since they all get to play one-punch-man"

Palladium decided that they would simply cap the damage dealt at a level where other people were still competitive, or at least viable (other than a few of the authors that decided to push the boundaries for their pet NPCs)

okay, I am down with your rationale, but do you just say 'the game's not built to handle that sort of strength' or what?

In games I have often simply uncoupled the two.
If I let someone pick up an extra ton or fifty it doesn't often make much of a difference in combat. But it lets the mightily Marsupial Man smack Wonder Wombat with a cement mixer instead of a motorcycle which is far cooler, even if the damage isn't all that better the visuals are.

I have very rarely found it to be a problem in heroes games that my bricks can carry too much stuff after all

This is kinda like the difference between Striking ST and Lifting ST in GURPS. Although for throwing stuff you use Lifting ST to determine if you can lift it and Striking ST to determine the damage+distance from throwing it, so you need all-around good ST to do that competently.

This isn't Rifts. Writing rules in your Super Hero game for how they MIGHT get translated into your post apocalyptic sci-fantasy game is a non-starter. If you're doing that, you've already failed.



Again, who cares about Rifts. This isn't Rifts, this is Heroes Unlimited. Rifts can whistle for it. You want the game you're playing (HU) to work.

Now, as i said, i could see three abilities making sense if you divided it up:

Minor:

Extraordinary Strength (sets to 20+ X, very strong, like a robot).

Major:

Superhuman Strength - adds a huge amount of strength. Cannot be used with Supernatural PS. CAN stack with Extraordinary (if you want to spend two powers, thats fine, after all, Extraordinary merely sets your base PS to 20 + 1D6, which you quite honestly migh thave rolled or ended up with after Physical skills anyway).

Supernatural Strength - adds a moderate amount of strength, but its Supernatural, meaning you lift a great deal more than mortal strength, inflict higher base damage with your punches and kicks, and harm things that are only hurt by magic/supernatural things. Does not stack with Superhuman, but does stack with Extraordinary.

That's how i'd run three.

Just pointing out heroes says robotic PS is considered super human pg 204 , i do not make a lot of robots so i missed that.

And i am done on this subject .

That isn't what you said.

Lets refresh:



You were talking about it making sense in Heroes because of Rifts. Thats plain as day, so trying to move the goalpost doesn't do you any good.



'kay.

The HU2 book does say Robots' strength is considered Superhuman. For Bionics characters it says it is considered Extraordinary.

good thing to see you have an open mind about how other people can view game theory and that you don't simply opine that your view is the One True Way.
Especially since the PS Triad is a core of the palladium system and is a feature of every game line since the Ultimate update.
…
which means that not doing it means you have already failed


And it works in HU too... so your point?
oh wait... there isn't one.
'cause you know... it seems to work just perfectly in HU. And Rifts. And ATB. And PF. And Splicers. And...


Okay, cool. That is your personal view great. To bad that doesn't make it the One True Way. Nor does it mean that your view is obviously superior to everyone else... its just your view. No better, no worse than anyone else.

The game works the way it is written because... wait for it... it provides three levels of strength.
Moderate strength (Augmented, Extraordinary, Brute, whatever) for "more than human"
Great strength (Robotic, Superhuman, Beastly, Splicer) for "wow that's strong"
and
Fabulous strength (Supernatural, Crushing, whatever) for "OMG that's strong"

It has done this for HU, Rifts, ATB, PF2, Splicers and more.
The fact that you may not LIKE the way the game has been written doesn't make the writing wrong... just that you disagree with the way the game is written.
If you want to try and argue that the set up is wrong (not just something you don't like, but actually wrong) you will need more than 'I don't like it' as your evidence.

Thats a pretty lame attempt at a Strawman. Usually you're better at your trolling than that.

One True Way? No.

"Game mechanics that function"? Yes.

Palladium doesn't function. If you believe it does, we're having a different argument that you think we're having.

And in response to the bolded... incorrect. Well cover that later.



Except the game DOESN'T work as written.



"And more" - like what?

Doesn't work that way in ATB that i'm aware of (unless your copy of the book is a special magical printing that is different from mine), doesn't work that way in Systems Failure, doesn't work that way in Dead Reign, doesn't work that way in Nightbane, and doesn't work that way in BTS. Certainly doesn't work that way in Robotech. All of those came out (other than Nightbane) after RUE.



No, the fact that it is unplayable, non-working drek makes it wrong.



Ironically, i disagree with ANY game that cant be played by the rules.



Ive done so dozens of times in dozens of threads. Not my job to support your laziness.

Unless you're going to try to say that HU (or any PB game other than perhaps N&SS revised) works as written, in which case, there isn't anything to talk about. I cant fight delusion.

But hey, you lasted 3 whole weeks off of ignore this year before proving you need to be ignored. Bye!

the only troll here is you.


Nice strawman.
This is about strength.. which rules function.
Trying to pretend that they don't is your delusion not mine.


Much of Palladium does function. Parts don't sure... but the entire game isn't totally unplayable.
So your nonsequitor dodge here to your usual "you caught me out I'll just move the goalposts" doesn't even help you



Except the game DOESN'T work as written. [/quote]
Bzzzt it does. There is nothing in the PS part that doesn't work.
Now if your going to be delusional and say you can't play the game... then I guess we should just write you off as a pure troll.



Since you are now blatantly and proveably lying I think we can safely disregard anything you have to say on the subject...
Hmm lets see
Open up ATB to page 69... oops Brute, Beastly, Crushing strength.
Open up Splicers to page 171 oops Robot and Supernatural/Splicer Strength... and we have Augmented too!
Open up Robtotech and what do you know... Augmented Strength, Robotic Strength, Supernatural Strength,
Guess what we have in BTS? Oh yeah... Supernatural Strength!
And Splicers has Extraordianry PS *and* the Bugs are noted to have SNPS in other games
Almost as if every game I mentioned has 3 sets of PS and your lying through your teeth when you say they don't.
Hmmm... so yeah, total pack of lies.
I guess we can pretty safely totally disregard ANYTHING you have to say if your can't even be bothered to tell the truth on something that can be fact checked with 15 seconds and the books...

Again all you have is "I don't like it and you are all wrong"
Which simply shows that you can't tell the difference between your opinion and a fact.


Which is a non-setquitor because the strength issue has nothing to do with that now does it.
Or is your stance here now "because there are parts of this game that don't work you are all wrong for liking it and you should all abandon it and go play something else and I will simply harang you on your foolishness for playing this"?
Because that is what you just said... seriously it is
If you don't like the game go somewhere else and stop trolling the people who play... but simply coming in and declaring that because your opinion is the game is wrong that anything you dislike is drek and that those who disagree with you are fools is pretty low class trolling.


The reply of the lazy who has no evidence at all
When asked to prove something they resort to "well I would but I claim I did it before so perfectly that everyone else should just accept that I am the One True Master and take my word for it... and no, I wont cite my sources"


the only delusion here is yours that 'there are parts of this game that are broken' has anything to do with 'three levels of strength'


Have fun running away from facts back into your retreat of religious dogma where you are the One Truth and all who do not bow to your whim are fools.

Just posting regarding publishing order. RUE was published in 2005. Systems Failure was a Y2K joke first published in 1999. After the Bomb as a core rulebook was published in 2001.

Colonel Tetsuya has demonstrated time and again that he has very little regard for 'facts' and is more interested in simply proclaiming his version of reality rather than honesty.
His entire statement there is one solid paragraph of lies after all...

I was willing to become one to prove you wrong but the only icon I could find is from PF2p79 (the Merc Warrior) who when you hover over him is called "Champion" so I'm not 100% sure.

Is anyone using this? I feel like maybe I've seen it but I'm not 100% sure, I'm willing to drop it if someone has dibs and go back to the axe from Dead Reign.

I was hoping to find the iconic art from pg 307 inherited from 202 of the original book (too bad we can't make custom icons!) but with a mighty beard like that I'm not sure if the merc warrior matches up...

Where I think the comparison is being made is probably a combination of pg 4 of the original PRPG and the other from pg 93 of the original Rifts Conversion Book since both those trolls are bald like this merc warrior. Both of those would make fun custom icons too!

Neither image AFAIK has made it into any later editions.