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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:58 am
  

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Hero

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So this one is an interesting talent in that it also, potentially, provides a seriously abnormal origin story...

So am I reading this right that the Receiver of this 'Gift' gains all the old Nightbane's Abilities (I read this to include Talents as well as Spells born being a mystic as otherwise spellcraft is a skill...) and the P.P.E. (-12 burned off for the transfer.)?

That could be a lot of P.P.E. and wouldn't the new 'bane start at level 1? Which would mean that P.P.E. could be further increased rather quickly... relatively speaking.

I was just imagining an Ancient Passing the Torch to a young (relative term) normal... that could be a ton of talents, abilities and P.P.E. as well as potentially Spells.

_________________
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."


Last edited by Slight001 on Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:17 pm
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
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Where are you reading this talent?

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You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 4:48 pm
  

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Hero

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Sorry, Dark Designs pg 98.

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"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:13 am
  

Hero

Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:49 am
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That would by why I don't remember the talent. I don't have Dark Designs yet.

_________________
Axelmania wrote:
You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:20 pm
  

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Hero

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Well thanks for responding. This talent is very interesting and has a "One for All" feel with the ability to pass on the power from one individual to the next.

I wonder if the Talent passes on as well. Could make an interesting "Choose one" origin story.

_________________
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:41 pm
  

Hero

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I'm curious about it, because if this is a thing, and is presented as having been a thing in the past, and everything that was passed on can still get passed on again, then it leads to some questions about the setting. Does using it permanently leave the one who used it as a normal forever? If so, would Nightbane who know of it try to teach it to Nightbane who want to stop being one in exchange for them helping to create super-charged nightbanes?

_________________
Axelmania wrote:
You of course, being the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not.
Declared the ultimate authority on what is an error and what is not by Axelmania on 5.11.19.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:17 pm
  

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Hero

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dreicunan wrote:
I'm curious about it, because if this is a thing, and is presented as having been a thing in the past, and everything that was passed on can still get passed on again, then it leads to some questions about the setting. Does using it permanently leave the one who used it as a normal forever? If so, would Nightbane who know of it try to teach it to Nightbane who want to stop being one in exchange for them helping to create super-charged nightbanes?

Who ever uses this for a permanent, there is an option for a temporary, transfer dies... yeah it's that kind of power.

I'd totally copy/transcribe the power for you to view if it wasn't for the whole not wanting to get in trouble thing.

_________________
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:51 pm
  

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Hero

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Prerequisites: Why should Passing the Torch be limited to Superbeings, Athletes, or Stigmata (? wait what?...) Personally I'd toss in a note that any ancient can also gain it... at the least.

Notes: Recipient can be a full copy of the Donor or can generate (at GM discretion) their own Morphus and/or talents… this is only present in the temporary section. The permanent (death) section doesn’t talk about this option… might just be a case of ‘it’s obvious’, to the author obvious...

New (Torch Holder) ‘Bane, retains attributes, knowledge and skills at his previous level, but can’t be psionic or anything that a Nightbane can’t be. Gains all the Abilities, and P.P.E. (-12 P.P.E.) permanently. They are now a ‘bane… which should be a class change right? Or do they remain their old class?

Old ‘Bane… well they are dead… so ‘rare’... ok… sure… I feel like the author was letting their personal beliefs taint the subject matter… course that usually happens…

This talent also brings some questions into play about the nature of the Nightbane. If their ‘gift’ can be passed on what does that mean for it? Are they like vampires? In that each holds a spark of something ‘supernatural’ within their bodies? If so and seeing as it can be ‘passed on’ can it also be taken/removed?

Also what happens if the former normal had a doppelganger? Can they have one? Will the Doppelganger awaken or just cease to be?

Then there are Ancient Nightbane, who over the course of their long lives… though strangely none are older than 2000 years old… yeah right... can gain some considerable power via their unique ‘Areas of Focus’ which can be amazing personal development and/or are focused on developing their morphus and various powers. If an Ancient decides they’ve had enough do the 'abilities' their Morphus have gained via their Areas of Focus transfer?

_________________
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:23 am
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
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Lycanthrope-themed Nightbane also seem like a good concept for that.

If a Shadow Warlock selected this (since they ignore all limits aside from level) I guess they'd just pass on their talents since they have no basic powers.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:29 pm
  

Dungeon Crawler

Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:08 am
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Just so it's clear, a permanent Passing the Torch kills the Talent user, and the recipient can't be psychic, supernatural, or a creature of magic. I think Nightbane still uses the RMB approach for PPE from ley lines, but at 12/hour it would be both managable and interesting to have temporarily imbued agents working as an Ancient's proxies. Alternatively, Nightbane could be forced into using the temporary version of this power then kept unconscious, with the temporary Morphus used as a suicide attacker.

If abilities include spells gained as a Nightbane Mystic in addition to Talents a couple of weird questions pop up. If a Sorcerer is the recipient of Passing the Torch from a Nightbane Mystic should they change OCC to Nightbane Sorcerer, or Nightbane Mystic? Can they teach those spells?


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Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:26 pm
  

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Hero

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 5:52 pm
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Curbludgeon wrote:
Just so it's clear, a permanent Passing the Torch kills the Talent user, and the recipient can't be psychic, supernatural, or a creature of magic. I think Nightbane still uses the RMB approach for PPE from ley lines, but at 12/hour it would be both managable and interesting to have temporarily imbued agents working as an Ancient's proxies. Alternatively, Nightbane could be forced into using the temporary version of this power then kept unconscious, with the temporary Morphus used as a suicide attacker.

Now you are talking about an interesting set of potential storylines and plot hooks.

Curbludgeon wrote:
If abilities include spells gained as a Nightbane Mystic in addition to Talents a couple of weird questions pop up. If a Sorcerer is the recipient of Passing the Torch from a Nightbane Mystic should they change OCC to Nightbane Sorcerer, or Nightbane Mystic? Can they teach those spells?

those and, does the recipient continue to gain spells as a mystic? What if they don't believe in magic?


Also, what if the recipient has a doppelganger? Does the talent fail? Or does something happen with/to the doppelganger?

What if the recipient had been subjected to fleshsculpting before being turned does the fleshsculpting remain or are they reset to their prior appearance/state of being? Given the prevalence of transgender individuals in our world and of those who also believe in magic. I could easily see an enterprising Fleshsculptor performing gender conversion on those seeking the procedure and not wanting the risks of conventional medical sciences. I can imagine that for many of those who willingly undergo fleshsculpting the act of becoming a nightbane might be less traumatic than being returned to their prior state of being.


Honestly this talent has all kinds of cool and neat implications from a story writing/telling perspective and yet it leads to the problems of bringing in the rather fundamental question of just what it means to be a nightbane. If a normal human can be turned into a Nightbane just what does that say about the nightbane? As I asked before are they akin to vampires where their bodies contain a spark of something inhuman that allows them the powers they have or is it something else

_________________
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:48 am
  

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Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9481
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Slight001 wrote:
Spoiler:
Curbludgeon wrote:
Just so it's clear, a permanent Passing the Torch kills the Talent user, and the recipient can't be psychic, supernatural, or a creature of magic. I think Nightbane still uses the RMB approach for PPE from ley lines, but at 12/hour it would be both managable and interesting to have temporarily imbued agents working as an Ancient's proxies. Alternatively, Nightbane could be forced into using the temporary version of this power then kept unconscious, with the temporary Morphus used as a suicide attacker.

Now you are talking about an interesting set of potential storylines and plot hooks.

Curbludgeon wrote:
If abilities include spells gained as a Nightbane Mystic in addition to Talents a couple of weird questions pop up. If a Sorcerer is the recipient of Passing the Torch from a Nightbane Mystic should they change OCC to Nightbane Sorcerer, or Nightbane Mystic? Can they teach those spells?

those and, does the recipient continue to gain spells as a mystic? What if they don't believe in magic?


Also, what if the recipient has a doppelganger? Does the talent fail? Or does something happen with/to the doppelganger?

What if the recipient had been subjected to fleshsculpting before being turned does the fleshsculpting remain or are they reset to their prior appearance/state of being? Given the prevalence of transgender individuals in our world and of those who also believe in magic. I could easily see an enterprising Fleshsculptor performing gender conversion on those seeking the procedure and not wanting the risks of conventional medical sciences. I can imagine that for many of those who willingly undergo fleshsculpting the act of becoming a nightbane might be less traumatic than being returned to their prior state of being.
Honestly this talent has all kinds of cool and neat implications from a story writing/telling perspective and yet it leads to the problems of bringing in the rather fundamental question of just what it means to be a nightbane. If a normal human can be turned into a Nightbane just what does that say about the nightbane? As I asked before are they akin to vampires where their bodies contain a spark of something inhuman that allows them the powers they have or is it something else

I see these questions as a feature not a bug.
I like that the question of "What is a Nightbane" is not answered and seems to be (borrowing a term from SJ Games) Canon Doubt and Uncertainty.
In that not only do we not know, but that there will never be an official answer.
To me that is great! I love CDaU! It means that no one can look in book X on page Y and know what the answers are. They will have to guess and wonder just like all the people in the in game universe. People who have to wonder what these Nightbane are, and what it all means.
Are they pawns of some other force? A rival to "The Dark" perhaps?
The Anti-bodies that others claim?
Some sort of transformational karma to the Nightlords transformation ritual...after all, the Nightlands nemesis rules suggest everything should have an opposite. And what is the Opposite of "Transformed a select few rulers into NightLords but transformed many random people into the bane of the Nightlords..."
Maybe they are people that have died and are being possessed by some sort of entity?
Or perhaps they are the true humans and what we think are humans are just the larval stage of the real race.
Or perhaps...

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:44 am
  

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Hero

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 5:52 pm
Posts: 878
eliakon wrote:
Slight001 wrote:
Spoiler:
Curbludgeon wrote:
Just so it's clear, a permanent Passing the Torch kills the Talent user, and the recipient can't be psychic, supernatural, or a creature of magic. I think Nightbane still uses the RMB approach for PPE from ley lines, but at 12/hour it would be both managable and interesting to have temporarily imbued agents working as an Ancient's proxies. Alternatively, Nightbane could be forced into using the temporary version of this power then kept unconscious, with the temporary Morphus used as a suicide attacker.

Now you are talking about an interesting set of potential storylines and plot hooks.

Curbludgeon wrote:
If abilities include spells gained as a Nightbane Mystic in addition to Talents a couple of weird questions pop up. If a Sorcerer is the recipient of Passing the Torch from a Nightbane Mystic should they change OCC to Nightbane Sorcerer, or Nightbane Mystic? Can they teach those spells?

those and, does the recipient continue to gain spells as a mystic? What if they don't believe in magic?


Also, what if the recipient has a doppelganger? Does the talent fail? Or does something happen with/to the doppelganger?

What if the recipient had been subjected to fleshsculpting before being turned does the fleshsculpting remain or are they reset to their prior appearance/state of being? Given the prevalence of transgender individuals in our world and of those who also believe in magic. I could easily see an enterprising Fleshsculptor performing gender conversion on those seeking the procedure and not wanting the risks of conventional medical sciences. I can imagine that for many of those who willingly undergo fleshsculpting the act of becoming a nightbane might be less traumatic than being returned to their prior state of being.
Honestly this talent has all kinds of cool and neat implications from a story writing/telling perspective and yet it leads to the problems of bringing in the rather fundamental question of just what it means to be a nightbane. If a normal human can be turned into a Nightbane just what does that say about the nightbane? As I asked before are they akin to vampires where their bodies contain a spark of something inhuman that allows them the powers they have or is it something else

I see these questions as a feature not a bug.
I like that the question of "What is a Nightbane" is not answered and seems to be (borrowing a term from SJ Games) Canon Doubt and Uncertainty.
In that not only do we not know, but that there will never be an official answer.
To me that is great! I love CDaU! It means that no one can look in book X on page Y and know what the answers are. They will have to guess and wonder just like all the people in the in game universe. People who have to wonder what these Nightbane are, and what it all means.
Are they pawns of some other force? A rival to "The Dark" perhaps?
The Anti-bodies that others claim?
Some sort of transformational karma to the Nightlords transformation ritual...after all, the Nightlands nemesis rules suggest everything should have an opposite. And what is the Opposite of "Transformed a select few rulers into NightLords but transformed many random people into the bane of the Nightlords..."
Maybe they are people that have died and are being possessed by some sort of entity?
Or perhaps they are the true humans and what we think are humans are just the larval stage of the real race.
Or perhaps...

I can, mostly, understand that. The problem is I look at this from the perspective of someone who creates worlds and writes within those worlds. I need to know the truth of everything within that world in order to fully understand its function within the setting. I was actually working on a bit of a palate cleanser when I remembered the Nightbane and how they could be both 'mechanical' and mages, and decided to look into them, learned they had a new book since I had last looked at the setting and found this little gem in said new book... and ended up creating a transgender, born female in a male form, nightbane with the morphus of a gothic lunar fairy with biomechanical arms and legs that were attached by flesh hooks and were still clearly 'fresh'. All born of a single question; when wouldn't a morphus transformation cause distress; perhaps when it is, partially, what you want? Imagine the shock of the ancient looking to have some fun in a dream pool when her transference created a not shock and fear, but delight and a moment of happiness in a life she soon learned was full of fear and repression.

So the problem I have is in the event I tried to write a book, source/novel/short, I will be bound by these limits in a way that can be seriously detrimental. I might even incidentally bring about something that can't happen because the hidden truths would have warned that it can't happen that way. On the other hand I might miss an opportunity for something amazing that I didn't even imagine could be because I didn't know these hidden truths.

As someone who aspires to one day publish I know that what the author knows is not necessarily what the readers, or even the characters, know and I can understand why that is. However, I associate the GM with an author. They are the ultimate masters of their domain/game and they need to know all the hidden truths. Their characters/Players don't need this information, until they do, however the GM/Author does need to know this information as it's presence and absence will, likely, shape the resulting narratives.

Take my inquiry regarding the status of a Doppelganger. Only 30%, kind of an oddly low, number of the world has a Doppelganger, however the main character is by their very nature the exception, and a danger magnet. They will face dangers and problems that few in their world are likely to ever face much less collectively. So because I do know that a Nightbane can't have a Doppelganger am I to assume that the Talent can't work on those rare few who do have Doppelgangers or am I free to exploit this to play with my poor MC and bring them more pain or perhaps a chance to see what could have been?

Me I can already imagine a doppelganger going guardian or something else entirely different in response to their 'mirror' turning Nightbane. However, Nightbane can't have doppelgangers... so a rule is broken... or is it? Or does the Doppelganger instead awaken and find themselves with no drive to kill their double and no need too as they are now 'seperated'? or...

Oh and these doppelganger questions would likely also apply for the temporary version as well...

_________________
"If your plan relies upon chance to succeed, then you've already failed."
"Sometimes to achieve the greatest good, one must commit great evil."


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:59 pm
  

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Knight

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:13 pm
Posts: 5393
I wonder, is there a way for a supernatural being to temporarily become non-supernatural so as to be a possible recipient of the power?


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Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:13 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9481
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Slight001 wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Slight001 wrote:
Spoiler:
Curbludgeon wrote:
Just so it's clear, a permanent Passing the Torch kills the Talent user, and the recipient can't be psychic, supernatural, or a creature of magic. I think Nightbane still uses the RMB approach for PPE from ley lines, but at 12/hour it would be both managable and interesting to have temporarily imbued agents working as an Ancient's proxies. Alternatively, Nightbane could be forced into using the temporary version of this power then kept unconscious, with the temporary Morphus used as a suicide attacker.

Now you are talking about an interesting set of potential storylines and plot hooks.

Curbludgeon wrote:
If abilities include spells gained as a Nightbane Mystic in addition to Talents a couple of weird questions pop up. If a Sorcerer is the recipient of Passing the Torch from a Nightbane Mystic should they change OCC to Nightbane Sorcerer, or Nightbane Mystic? Can they teach those spells?

those and, does the recipient continue to gain spells as a mystic? What if they don't believe in magic?


Also, what if the recipient has a doppelganger? Does the talent fail? Or does something happen with/to the doppelganger?

What if the recipient had been subjected to fleshsculpting before being turned does the fleshsculpting remain or are they reset to their prior appearance/state of being? Given the prevalence of transgender individuals in our world and of those who also believe in magic. I could easily see an enterprising Fleshsculptor performing gender conversion on those seeking the procedure and not wanting the risks of conventional medical sciences. I can imagine that for many of those who willingly undergo fleshsculpting the act of becoming a nightbane might be less traumatic than being returned to their prior state of being.
Honestly this talent has all kinds of cool and neat implications from a story writing/telling perspective and yet it leads to the problems of bringing in the rather fundamental question of just what it means to be a nightbane. If a normal human can be turned into a Nightbane just what does that say about the nightbane? As I asked before are they akin to vampires where their bodies contain a spark of something inhuman that allows them the powers they have or is it something else

I see these questions as a feature not a bug.
I like that the question of "What is a Nightbane" is not answered and seems to be (borrowing a term from SJ Games) Canon Doubt and Uncertainty.
In that not only do we not know, but that there will never be an official answer.
To me that is great! I love CDaU! It means that no one can look in book X on page Y and know what the answers are. They will have to guess and wonder just like all the people in the in game universe. People who have to wonder what these Nightbane are, and what it all means.
Are they pawns of some other force? A rival to "The Dark" perhaps?
The Anti-bodies that others claim?
Some sort of transformational karma to the Nightlords transformation ritual...after all, the Nightlands nemesis rules suggest everything should have an opposite. And what is the Opposite of "Transformed a select few rulers into NightLords but transformed many random people into the bane of the Nightlords..."
Maybe they are people that have died and are being possessed by some sort of entity?
Or perhaps they are the true humans and what we think are humans are just the larval stage of the real race.
Or perhaps...

I can, mostly, understand that. The problem is I look at this from the perspective of someone who creates worlds and writes within those worlds. I need to know the truth of everything within that world in order to fully understand its function within the setting. I was actually working on a bit of a palate cleanser when I remembered the Nightbane and how they could be both 'mechanical' and mages, and decided to look into them, learned they had a new book since I had last looked at the setting and found this little gem in said new book... and ended up creating a transgender, born female in a male form, nightbane with the morphus of a gothic lunar fairy with biomechanical arms and legs that were attached by flesh hooks and were still clearly 'fresh'. All born of a single question; when wouldn't a morphus transformation cause distress; perhaps when it is, partially, what you want? Imagine the shock of the ancient looking to have some fun in a dream pool when her transference created a not shock and fear, but delight and a moment of happiness in a life she soon learned was full of fear and repression.

So the problem I have is in the event I tried to write a book, source/novel/short, I will be bound by these limits in a way that can be seriously detrimental. I might even incidentally bring about something that can't happen because the hidden truths would have warned that it can't happen that way. On the other hand I might miss an opportunity for something amazing that I didn't even imagine could be because I didn't know these hidden truths.

As someone who aspires to one day publish I know that what the author knows is not necessarily what the readers, or even the characters, know and I can understand why that is. However, I associate the GM with an author. They are the ultimate masters of their domain/game and they need to know all the hidden truths. Their characters/Players don't need this information, until they do, however the GM/Author does need to know this information as it's presence and absence will, likely, shape the resulting narratives.

Take my inquiry regarding the status of a Doppelganger. Only 30%, kind of an oddly low, number of the world has a Doppelganger, however the main character is by their very nature the exception, and a danger magnet. They will face dangers and problems that few in their world are likely to ever face much less collectively. So because I do know that a Nightbane can't have a Doppelganger am I to assume that the Talent can't work on those rare few who do have Doppelgangers or am I free to exploit this to play with my poor MC and bring them more pain or perhaps a chance to see what could have been?

Me I can already imagine a doppelganger going guardian or something else entirely different in response to their 'mirror' turning Nightbane. However, Nightbane can't have doppelgangers... so a rule is broken... or is it? Or does the Doppelganger instead awaken and find themselves with no drive to kill their double and no need too as they are now 'seperated'? or...

Oh and these doppelganger questions would likely also apply for the temporary version as well...

This is why I like SJ Games.
For their writers they tell us what the CDaU areas are.
Thus if they say "The origins of the NightBane are CDaU" then when you write you can do what you will... as long as you don't try to set up what the origins are, and what you write doesn't require a specific origin.
For me? I would say that how I would see the Doppleganger issue working as that since Nightbane Can't have Dopplegangers... that the Doppleganger would be "untethered" from the new Nightbane and essentially become a Doppleganger of the now nonexistant person that once was.
They would be awoken and treated like any other Doppleganger whos double had died...
And they would probably have some issues with their double if they found them out :D
Or turn them into a Guardian :D
(In my games, which are just dark, The Doppleganger would die the same hideous death as one who stays in the same world as their twin... the price of suddenly being That Which Can Not Be...but my Nightbane games are dark)

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


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