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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:16 am
  

Dungeon Crawler

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The question of what system to use comes up, and should depend on what you want-I'd use M&M's mecha and manga, if you want a fast moving system that prizes speed more than tactical "Accuracy" while Mekton Z would be good for the more simulationist players.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:59 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
And I'll rewrite the old third invid war stuff to go with it.

To be honest, I'm not particularly interested in the old Third Invite War stuff; the concept of the Regis/Regess re-occupying Earth after Symphony of Light never say well with me. I'd be more interested in a project that takes what Shadow Chronicles set up (specifically, the whole “the Haydonites are the next threat to face mankind, as they betray Earth's defenders” bit) and builds on that. In short, do what Shadow Chronicles had the potential to do before it went off the rails.

Also: once the license ends, do you think we can get the IMAI files made public again? I lost my copy some time ago, and haven't dared ask for another copy of it due to the PB license.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:54 pm
  

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:01 pm
  

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the third invid war storyline is pretty much unneeded now, i agree. i never much liked it in 1st ed either.

but the new mecha and gear the TIW site created could certainly be used in 2nd edition with a few adjustments. especially the invid mecha and the new cyclones. the new Veritech fighters though run into some issues with tech advancement and the haydonite conflict storyline that would force some extra changes but they could still be used.

honestly the only thing from it i can't see being very useable in some form is the class 6 Invid.. but since those were ridiculously powerful and meant to replace the regis as leadership in the TIW scenario, that probably isn't much of a loss.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:14 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
the third invid war storyline is pretty much unneeded now, i agree. i never much liked it in 1st ed either.

but the new mecha and gear the TIW site created could certainly be used in 2nd edition with a few adjustments. especially the invid mecha and the new cyclones. the new Veritech fighters though run into some issues with tech advancement and the haydonite conflict storyline that would force some extra changes but they could still be used.

honestly the only thing from it i can't see being very useable in some form is the class 6 Invid.. but since those were ridiculously powerful and meant to replace the regis as leadership in the TIW scenario, that probably isn't much of a loss.



Agreed with the class sixers. I could see the rest of the gear being part of a surprise 'turn and fight' scenario for the Invid, maybe a taskforce of volunteer stage fivers left behind to act as a 'spoiler' if the Haydonites took up pursuit, or a surprise rescue force if those fivers left behind on Earth needed an emergency extraction.
Or, it sets up for a 'yesterday's bad guy is today's ally', with the UEDF/UEEF PCs being last-standed by the Haydonites, only to be rescued by a cavalry of Invid, who vanish as soon as the Haydonites are routed.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:54 pm
  

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actually if you use the TIW invid as a post-earth invid, during or after the haydonite war, you could use the class 6's even.. they could be 'high royals' meant to fill a role similar to what the Regent would have before the invid split the first time.. that of a leader able to command the invid while leaving the regis free to focus more on her evolutionary experiments.

the main thing would be just giving the Space hives sublight and fold drives to make them full blown warships instead of orbiting stations.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:32 pm
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:

the main thing would be just giving the Space hives sublight and fold drives to make them full blown warships instead of orbiting stations.


With hordes of Invid sub-castes filling in quite ably as point defense.
Yep, can see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:33 am
  

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Knight

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
the third invid war storyline is pretty much unneeded now, i agree. i never much liked it in 1st ed either.

but the new mecha and gear the TIW site created could certainly be used in 2nd edition with a few adjustments. especially the invid mecha and the new cyclones. the new Veritech fighters though run into some issues with tech advancement and the haydonite conflict storyline that would force some extra changes but they could still be used.

honestly the only thing from it i can't see being very useable in some form is the class 6 Invid.. but since those were ridiculously powerful and meant to replace the regis as leadership in the TIW scenario, that probably isn't much of a loss.

The Invid stuff can certainly be useful as evolutionary updated designs for the Invid for a 3way battle (or a new UEEF ally). The Space Hives don't need to be necessarily updated, just use the Scorpion Carrier since it was supposed to handle that role.

The site though went overboard with Cyclone variants, really they could have just done a Cyclone or two and covered their bases with modular packages/configurations. The 4 new VFs maybe dated, though I suppose could be adapted.

We still don't know how the Hyadonites "exploited" the Shadow Devices. So in a campaign the GM could take one of two views:
1. The exploit is a result of the way the technology works
2. The exploit is booby trap or backdoor they snuck into the design while providing assistance to the UEEF

In either case though the "new" Shadow Devices the 3IW site has could address the issue in different ways (Option 1 would be to use the Bio-Emulator to create an canceling wave, Option 2 would be to remove the backdoor/boobytrap) as a future VF.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:20 pm
  

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Scorpion Carrier's arguably a Regent design...while the Regis could logically transmute up a load of them(or rather the works to grow them) since I doubt the Sentinels or UEEF left any intact after snotching the Regent, I wonder of the Regis would really bring back the design, given its bad memory association.
Of course, she might do it because frankly she doesn't have any new designs available to her, but she might want to generate something new with the knowledge she's acquired.

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"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:52 pm
  

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it could be that the Regent doesn't use transmutation to build his scorpions and clamships. those seem to be suited ot a more conventional construction system.. and would help explain why the Regent would want to hold places like Karbarra, which have both shipyards and lots of industry.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:21 pm
  

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Figures... Always hated the new CEO of Harmony-Goldiloks; always thought of him as a mealy mouthed two-faced squeeb.
Now I KNOW he is.
Oh well; it's not as if things like this aren't unknown. Re; Bastards of the Coast Vs. D20 open liscence, Games Workshop Vs. Fantasy Flight Games.
Alas.
Oh well, I have my Macross True kit-bash stuff & the books I did collect of the 2nd edition Lobotech (along with the stuff I have from first run RT). I'll just have to laminate the pages when they get too ratty ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:29 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
And I'll rewrite the old third invid war stuff to go with it.


Actually Jaymz, try to re-tweaked the 3rd Invid War storyline. Rather than Earth, how about a new Invid force trying to reclaim Optera that had been re-seeded with 2nd Gen FoL (mutant variant) by a mixed of UEEF / Sentinels colonists.

The new Invid leader should be Tesla, fully transmuted as Invid Simulagent who are trying to reclaim lost Invid homeworld and gallivanting across the galaxy amassing Inorganics army abandoned at various forgotten Invid's outposts, and also rallying the Invid's Gura Faction.

This new Invid forces should be a combination of Invid Regents' Inorganics, the Invid Simulagents' faction led by Tesla and the mutant Invid Gura. All the new Invid mechas as presented in Dave Dietrich's 3rd Invid War should be part of Tesla's arsenals.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:16 am
  

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RobotechMaster wrote:
jaymz wrote:
And I'll rewrite the old third invid war stuff to go with it.


Actually Jaymz, try to re-tweaked the 3rd Invid War storyline. Rather than Earth, how about a new Invid force trying to reclaim Optera that had been re-seeded with 2nd Gen FoL (mutant variant) by a mixed of UEEF / Sentinels colonists.

The new Invid leader should be Tesla, fully transmuted as Invid Simulagent who are trying to reclaim lost Invid homeworld and gallivanting across the galaxy amassing Inorganics army abandoned at various forgotten Invid's outposts, and also rallying the Invid's Gura Faction.

This new Invid forces should be a combination of Invid Regents' Inorganics, the Invid Simulagents' faction led by Tesla and the mutant Invid Gura. All the new Invid mechas as presented in Dave Dietrich's 3rd Invid War should be part of Tesla's arsenals.



Interesting thought. I was looking to do it in a way that eventually the returned Invid would end up teaming up with the earth forces to take on and defeat the Haydonites. Your idea could work as an alternative for the post earth/haydonite conflict. Wouldn't affect the mecha stats any though either way as an added benefit.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:41 pm
  

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Alpha 11 wrote:
Well, if you haven't seen the lasted RTT update, Palladium has last the licence to Robotech, again.

Considering what a public relations fiasco RRT devolved into, I'm surprised that HG let things drag out as long as they did before pulling the plug. They've always been very concerned with maintaining at least a flimsy outward appearance of being on top of it all, so I can imagine it was probably a source of considerable frustration on their part watching PB dig itself a progressively deeper hole as time went on.

For what it's worth, I felt Palladium at least tried to do justice to Robotech in the 2nd Edition RPG. It stood head and shoulders above the old RPG and Macross II RPG in terms of accuracy to the source material. Manga size was definitely a mistake, though it was at least an understandable mistake. It probably would've helped if they had done the books spiral-bound, so the more portable format would be easier to use.

There were still some accuracy issues in places, some of which were annoying, but at least a few served a useful purpose in NERFing the older designs so the later ones in the New Generation would be an attractive option. MDC small arms will never not be a terrible idea, especially when arbitrary damage values made them better than quite a few larger weapons used by ten meter tall robots. The game was definitely running out of steam by the time we got to the New Generation and Genesis Pits books... the amount of canon material in Robotech just isn't big enough to develop a game with a significant number of sourcebooks and expansions.

Spoiler:
Sadly, the 2nd Edition gets a lot of undeserved flak for its greater accuracy to the source material. The Masters Saga fans in particular beat on it for depicting the Southern Cross Army mecha as largely ineffectual. It's not an idea which came from Jason Marker or even Harmony Gold, and it has no roots in any kind of alleged Macross Saga favoritism... it actually comes from the Southern Cross OSM itself, which describes many of the mecha as being mostly useless against the Zor.
Only the Auroran (RT: AGACs) is described in favorable terms, and only then as a "too little too late" measure late in the war.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 1:40 am
  

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glitterboy2098 wrote:
post 2021 we might see the actual macross stuff (macross plus, 7, frontier, zero, etc) finally start coming over.

that said, i wouldn't hold my breath for PB getting a macross RPG if that happens.. not only do i suspect that PB will probably avoid licensed material from now on, but PB's working with HG has probably soured PB's image in the eyes of Big West, given how often Big West and HG clashed.
That’s probably for the best. I have a love/hate relationship with PB: I love the IP, and I hate the game engine. And as far as Macross is concerned, PB leaned a little too heavily into a war gaming angle for my taste, with insufficient attention paid to the soap opera aspects of the source material.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:01 pm
  

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I always wondered how FASA was able to get away with using mecha from soooo many different Japanese anime series like Dougram and Crusher Joe; most of FASA original mecha designs sucked save for the Clan-Mechs.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:51 pm
  

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Peacebringer wrote:
I always wondered how FASA was able to get away with using mecha from soooo many different Japanese anime series like Dougram and Crusher Joe; most of FASA original mecha designs sucked save for the Clan-Mechs.

FASA didn't exactly get away with it... they were flying under the radar for a little while with what was quite literally copyright infringement for a little while, that's all.

Ironically, what brought them down was getting too big for their britches and filing a lawsuit for copyright infringement of their pirated designs against a legitimate licenseholder (Playmates Toys). That inspired bit of idiocy didn't just blow up in their faces, it led to a hilariously one-sided countersuit filed against them by the legitimate licenseholders. FASA was so hopelessly screwed that settling out of court was their only hope for survival, and ultimately agreed to a legally-binding blanket ban on the use of mechanical designs from other IPs (resulting in "the Unseen"). FASA's successor companies in recent years have unwittingly violated that ban and been threatened with legal action (or actually sued) for it as in the case of the BattleTech 25th anniversary artbook and the recent MechWarrior suit.

(It had another funny consequence that often gets ignored... FASA had to go, on bended knee, and pay for original mechanical designs for the game's Japanese edition to avoid being sued down to their skivvies there by the even less amused Japanese IP owners.)

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:48 pm
  

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jaymz wrote:
RobotechMaster wrote:
jaymz wrote:
And I'll rewrite the old third invid war stuff to go with it.


Actually Jaymz, try to re-tweaked the 3rd Invid War storyline. Rather than Earth, how about a new Invid force trying to reclaim Optera that had been re-seeded with 2nd Gen FoL (mutant variant) by a mixed of UEEF / Sentinels colonists.

The new Invid leader should be Tesla, fully transmuted as Invid Simulagent who are trying to reclaim lost Invid homeworld and gallivanting across the galaxy amassing Inorganics army abandoned at various forgotten Invid's outposts, and also rallying the Invid's Gura Faction.

This new Invid forces should be a combination of Invid Regents' Inorganics, the Invid Simulagents' faction led by Tesla and the mutant Invid Gura. All the new Invid mechas as presented in Dave Dietrich's 3rd Invid War should be part of Tesla's arsenals.



Interesting thought. I was looking to do it in a way that eventually the returned Invid would end up teaming up with the earth forces to take on and defeat the Haydonites. Your idea could work as an alternative for the post earth/haydonite conflict. Wouldn't affect the mecha stats any though either way as an added benefit.


I did the same in my friends game. First I made a R.C.C called the Regis Hybrids. The premise is that Regis experiments are given some of her genetics so she can more easily manipulate their bodies. The product of two Regis experiments having a child create a Regis Hybrid. The Regis Hybrids or Hybrids always have some aspect or the Regis' appearance and some aspect of her power.

The GM said sure. So I presented him with Banshee. Banshee is from a dynastic family like the Sterlings, Hunters or Grants. She argued with command to give her a chance to make contact with the Regis and use her... circumstances to convince Regis to return and help. Basically convincing the Regis that humans were duped by the shadow and that as the light she was supposed to protect the other species from Haydon. Intrigued by the evolutionary marvel the Regis head what she had to so and agreed to aid the war. With Banshee's (her call sign not her real name) help and mankind's penchant for war she developed new Invid ships and hybrid veritechs and returned with a fast grown Fleet. The Regis was also offered a return to Eart so the FOL could grow and she and her children could return to their primarily agrarian lifestyles while the humans and Zentradi would defend the Earth.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:53 am
  

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taalismn wrote:
IMHO, I don't think there's another company that will try a Robotech RPG.
If we're lucky, the Tactics game may continue, but a true RPG? Outside fan efforts, I don;t see it happening.

A company called Strange Machine Games disagrees.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:05 pm
  

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They may disagree but it is not out yet so we will see.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:20 pm
  

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Doesn't matter if it's out yet; taalismn said that he doesn't think that there's another company that will try. There is. I'll agree that it's still an open question whether they'll succeed, though I'm hoping they will — and hopefully they'll succeed well enough to go beyond the Macross era before HG losses the license.


Last edited by dataweaver on Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:35 pm
  

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They have two years and last I myself checked they aren't really any closer than they were this past summer to being done.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:35 am
  

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jaymz wrote:
They have two years and last I myself checked they aren't really any closer than they were this past summer to being done.

Which certainly makes the fact that they've branded it as a Macross Saga RPG rather than a Robotech RPG a bit more illustrative of how near Robotech's ending is.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:53 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
jaymz wrote:
They have two years and last I myself checked they aren't really any closer than they were this past summer to being done.

Which certainly makes the fact that they've branded it as a Macross Saga RPG rather than a Robotech RPG a bit more illustrative of how near Robotech's ending is.


Actually it is branded as Robotech: The Macross Saga RPG.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:51 pm
  

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kennethk wrote:
Actually it is branded as Robotech: The Macross Saga RPG.

Correct, but you missed my point completely.

It's branded as a RPG for Robotech's Macross Saga, not for Robotech as a whole. That suggests they're aiming to do just the most popular part of the series before HG's license expires in early 2021.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:09 pm
  

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Probably, yes. Then again, Palladium Books' most recent license resulted in them publishing “Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles”, followed by supplements for each of the Sagas; and the original license resulted in an initial book focused on the Macross Saga with supplements eventually addressing Southern Cross and Invid Invasion. So depending on how fast on their feet the new license-holders are, they might be planning something similar: a core book covering the Macross Saga, and supplements covering the later Sagas. Again, I don't think it's likely; they only have until 2021 to publish whatever they're going to publish, and that's not long in publishing terms. But it's possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:14 pm
  

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dataweaver wrote:
Probably, yes. Then again, Palladium Books' most recent license resulted in them publishing “Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles”, followed by supplements for each of the Sagas; [...]

Granted, the choice to brand the second Robotech RPG with the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles title seems like a very odd choice when viewed with the benefit of hindsight. However, that decision made a lot of sense at the time it was made.

Harmony Gold's grand plan for the future of the Robotech franchise was that the Shadow Chronicles OVA would be their ambassador to a new generation of anime fans. It was supposed to bring in droves of new fans and sponsors willing to bankroll future installments, sequels, spinoffs, and what have you. It was also supposed to be the new Robotech core storyline going forward and function as a launching point for those sequels and spinoffs. The RPG was supposed to appeal to those new, incoming fans who would allegedly not be familiar with the TV show from '85 and run with the new storyline first and foremost. That's why it's the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles Role-Playing Game. The Macross Saga, Masters Saga, and New Generation were supposed to be footnotes to the new hotness.

All those delusions of grandeur obviously failed to pan out, starting with the first episode of the Shadow Chronicles OVA meeting an at-best lukewarm reception from existing fans and garnering approximately zero attention from the rest of the anime fandom and potential sponsors. The OVA was canceled after just one episode in 2007 and Harmony Gold went full evasive claiming indefinite hiatus didn't mean it was definitively dead and began waiting for someone else to save them.



dataweaver wrote:
[...] and the original license resulted in an initial book focused on the Macross Saga with supplements eventually addressing Southern Cross and Invid Invasion.

Yes, but that was always branded simply as "Robotech: the Role-Playing Game".

Starting at the beginning and branding the game based on the beginning send two totally different messages.



dataweaver wrote:
So depending on how fast on their feet the new license-holders are, they might be planning something similar: a core book covering the Macross Saga, and supplements covering the later Sagas. Again, I don't think it's likely; they only have until 2021 to publish whatever they're going to publish, and that's not long in publishing terms. But it's possible.

Quite honestly, they don't seem to be any closer to publication now than they were when the license was announced. I would consider it extremely doubtful they'll get more than one book out before The End. Especially now that Harmony Gold themselves have acknowledged that they might not get the license back. They wouldn't admit they weren't in control unless things had really become dire for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:55 pm
  

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Yeah; that's why I said “unlikely, but possible”.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:28 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Especially now that Harmony Gold themselves have acknowledged that they might not get the license back. They wouldn't admit they weren't in control unless things had really become dire for them.


They have? This I want to see......

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2019 5:32 pm
  

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A major milestone passed largely unremarked-upon recently... we're now down to less than two years before Harmony Gold's license expires.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:22 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
A major milestone passed largely unremarked-upon recently... we're now down to less than two years before Harmony Gold's license expires.

I have been wondering about this. I know that Harmony Gold will not be able to produce anything new after this date but what happens to Robotech. The episodes are on Hulu & Netflix do they just disappear or will still be available? There will be no new comics or books but do all the old ones disappear from stores? Does anyone own Robotech itself after this date?

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:13 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
A major milestone passed largely unremarked-upon recently... we're now down to less than two years before Harmony Gold's license expires.

I have been wondering about this. I know that Harmony Gold will not be able to produce anything new after this date but what happens to Robotech. The episodes are on Hulu & Netflix do they just disappear or will still be available? There will be no new comics or books but do all the old ones disappear from stores? [...]

It'll disappear.

Just as Palladium Books was required to surrender all unsold inventory of the Robotech RPG and RPG Tactics games when their license was revoked, Harmony Gold USA will be required to surrender all of its unsold inventory of merchandise based on Macross, Southern Cross, and MOSPEADA to Tatsunoko for disposal (including unsold stock held by their licensees). That means all of the apparel, books, comics, games, toys, videos, and other merchandise. All of the licenses Harmony Gold USA issued for that material would be null and void, so Robotech would be removed from streaming services and would no longer be available on home video, any currently-running publications like comic books would be summarily canceled, reprints of old material would no longer be possible, and any new products under development such as artbooks, games, statues, toys, and other merchandise would be canceled and preorders would have to be refunded.

In short, when Harmony Gold USA's license expires anything and everything Robotech that is based on the original source material is off the table permanently. It wouldn't stop fans from selling their collections on eBay or anything, but nothing could be sold through any official channels anymore.

We saw a microcosm of this in action when Harmony Gold added material from Robotech: the Untold Story as a DVD extra feature. As they had long-since lost the rights to Megazone 23, they were not allowed to use anything from Megazone 23 anymore... meaning the Robotech: the Untold Story content was JUST the bits from Southern Cross that were used in that film.

Even quasi-original works that used IP from the original source material would be rendered unsellable, like Robotech II: the Sentinels, Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles, and Robotech Academy. To use them, they would have to cut out any and all material from or based on the original IP... so no even slightly recognizable characters (bye bye Rick, Max, Miriya, Lisa, Invid Regent, etc.), no recognizable mecha (no Alphas, Betas, Cyclones, Invid, SDF-3, etc.), no recognizable iconography (the RDF, ASC, REF, UEEF, and Zentradi emblems, rank markings, etc.)... there wouldn't be more than a handful of minutes of material left once the cutting was done. The ONLY title exempt from that would be the all-original Robotech 3000 trailer.



Warshield73 wrote:
Does anyone own Robotech itself after this date?

To answer that, we first have to make clear how Robotech is legally distinct from the source material.

Under copyright law (17 U.S.C. § 103(b)), Harmony Gold can only legally claim ownership of those parts of Robotech that were not present in the original works. All Robotech actually is, in legal terms, is the title, the original songs recorded for it, the character names that were changed in the adaptation, and the aspects of the plot that were not part of the original works (e.g. Zor being a scientist, the Flowers of Life, "protoculture" fuel), and any original characters or mechanical designs they created provided those designs do not draw upon anything from the original source material.

Harmony Gold would still own that tiny smidgen of material once the rights expired, but they would be unable to use anything from the animation or stories of the original works. They could try to use that material to start new Robotech stories, but odds are they would pack it in instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:58 pm
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
A major milestone passed largely unremarked-upon recently... we're now down to less than two years before Harmony Gold's license expires.

I have been wondering about this. I know that Harmony Gold will not be able to produce anything new after this date but what happens to Robotech. The episodes are on Hulu & Netflix do they just disappear or will still be available?

I assume online distributors buy the rights to show Robotech from Harmony Gold. Therefore, once HG loses its rights the distributors lose theirs, and the episodes will be removed.
Warshield73 wrote:
There will be no new comics or books but do all the old ones disappear from stores?

I assume actual physical books are the property of the store. So a change in licensor shouldn't make any immediate difference.
Warshield73 wrote:
Does anyone own Robotech itself after this date?

Why wouldn't HG still own "Robotech" itself? It should still own the words "Robotech" and "Rick Hunter" and "Veritech," for instance, and any original designs. It just won't own elements of the original Japanese animation.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:37 pm
  

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ESalter wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
There will be no new comics or books but do all the old ones disappear from stores?

I assume actual physical books are the property of the store. So a change in licensor shouldn't make any immediate difference.

Inventory that is already in the possession of the retailers is already "sold".

It's the inventory that the licensee or their [distributor/fulfillment center] (if they have one) is still sitting on that hasn't been sold to a retailer yet that gets surrendered if the license expires.

This is a bigger problem for Robotech because overall low demand means that almost everything is being sold in direct sales by HG or its licensees rather than through retailers, so very little would escape having to be surrendered when the license ends. This situation is only skewing farther towards direct sales thanks to HG's shift to an almost exclusively indie licensee base.



ESalter wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Does anyone own Robotech itself after this date?

Why wouldn't HG still own "Robotech" itself? It should still own the words "Robotech" and "Rick Hunter" and "Veritech," for instance, and any original designs. It just won't own elements of the original Japanese animation.

This is, of course, a bigger problem than it seems at first glance. As Tatsunoko had to remind Harmony Gold during their arbitration over royalties, Harmony Gold doesn't own material based on content from the original Japanese source material free and clear. It's derivative work, and thus becomes inaccessible to them once the rights to the source material run out. That leaves very, VERY little to the name of "Robotech". Some names, some music, a couple character designs, the Haydonite mecha, and that's about it. You could fit it all in a shoebox without taking the shoes out first.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:58 pm
  

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ESalter wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Does anyone own Robotech itself after this date?

Why wouldn't HG still own "Robotech" itself? It should still own the words "Robotech" and "Rick Hunter" and "Veritech," for instance, and any original designs. It just won't own elements of the original Japanese animation.


Well if SK is correct, and from what I have been reading over the last few days he is, the name is about all they own.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Does anyone own Robotech itself after this date?

To answer that, we first have to make clear how Robotech is legally distinct from the source material.

Under copyright law (17 U.S.C. § 103(b)), Harmony Gold can only legally claim ownership of those parts of Robotech that were not present in the original works. All Robotech actually is, in legal terms, is the title, the original songs recorded for it, the character names that were changed in the adaptation, and the aspects of the plot that were not part of the original works (e.g. Zor being a scientist, the Flowers of Life, "protoculture" fuel), and any original characters or mechanical designs they created provided those designs do not draw upon anything from the original source material.

Harmony Gold would still own that tiny smidgen of material once the rights expired, but they would be unable to use anything from the animation or stories of the original works. They could try to use that material to start new Robotech stories, but odds are they would pack it in instead.

What I was wondering is if the original holders get to use Robotech after the rights revert back. From what I have seen they won't which makes Robotech really weird in terms of IPs I follow. This entire universe will simply stop in less than two years. I mean sure it's not a huge money maker but it has a following and in two years it will be poof. Once the books are sold out of the stores, once the last set of DVDs is gone from Best Buy that's it. In ten years if I want to watch the series I will have to find it on the secondary market.

I just find this fascinating, and more than a little weird.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
ESalter wrote:
Warshield73 wrote:
Does anyone own Robotech itself after this date?

Why wouldn't HG still own "Robotech" itself? It should still own the words "Robotech" and "Rick Hunter" and "Veritech," for instance, and any original designs. It just won't own elements of the original Japanese animation.

This is, of course, a bigger problem than it seems at first glance. As Tatsunoko had to remind Harmony Gold during their arbitration over royalties, Harmony Gold doesn't own material based on content from the original Japanese source material free and clear. It's derivative work, and thus becomes inaccessible to them once the rights to the source material run out. That leaves very, VERY little to the name of "Robotech". Some names, some music, a couple character designs, the Haydonite mecha, and that's about it. You could fit it all in a shoebox without taking the shoes out first.

:lol: I love this, well done sir.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 12:42 am
  

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I don't think the original holders much care whether or not they can use Robotech. They can use Macross (or Southern Cross, or Mospeada, depending on the holder); and especially in the case of Macross, that's far more than enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:57 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
Well if SK is correct, and from what I have been reading over the last few days he is, the name is about all they own.

Incidentally, that's also the reason that Harmony Gold's proposal for a live action movie was for a reimagining from the ground up... some BGM and a couple pieces of concept art are virtually all that's keeping the phrase "Robotech's intellectual property" from being an oxymoron.

(This is probably also a major contributing factor in the movie not getting made. If you have to completely reinvent the wheel anyway, why not ditch the license and just make an all-original fighting robot movie?)



Warshield73 wrote:
What I was wondering is if the original holders get to use Robotech after the rights revert back.

Nope, the rights to what is distinctly Robotech remain with Harmony Gold USA... but Tatsunoko WILL obtain various other forms of intellectual property like the trademarks Harmony Gold filed on various terms and art selections from the original shows.



Warshield73 wrote:
From what I have seen they won't which makes Robotech really weird in terms of IPs I follow. This entire universe will simply stop in less than two years. I mean sure it's not a huge money maker but it has a following and in two years it will be poof. Once the books are sold out of the stores, once the last set of DVDs is gone from Best Buy that's it. In ten years if I want to watch the series I will have to find it on the secondary market.

I just find this fascinating, and more than a little weird.

Robotech is almost certainly unique in this regard.

Of all the expurgated anime titles that were released in the west in the 80's and beyond, Robotech was the only one that used material from multiple unrelated shows including one that wasn't a one-and-done property. Star Blazers and G-Force/Battle of the Planets didn't have this problem because their heavy-handed localizations were based on one and only one property, a move that allowed them to later set themselves up as "American Yamato" and "American Gatchaman" respectively. Voltron, Force Five, etc. don't have this problem because the individual shows were all one-offs that never spawned sequels or franchises. By adapting Macross, Southern Cross, and MOSPEADA into a single "new" narrative, Robotech had preemptively locked itself out of ever becoming "American Macross". Star Blazers and Battle of the Planets are still around because the creators of the localized version have a good working relationship with the owners of the source IP and thus were able to secure licenses for subsequent titles and thus concurrently continue the expurgated version with Japanese animation AND support the original versions. Harmony Gold alienated Macross's owners in a bid to protect Robotech from having to compete with higher-quality Macross products, which meant that they were left with no way out when their license ends.

It's VERY weird when you think about it. Unlike so many properties that've seen interest wax and wane over time, there's no prospect for a reboot or a revival down the road because they'll have lost the rights to the entire bloody series and getting it all back would be virtually impossible. Robotech will just irrevocably cease to be.

There've been a few near misses over the industry's history where rights disputes almost put a permanent end to a franchise[1], but I don't think we've ever had a case of one being totally taken out forever like this.



Spoiler:
[1] The Space Battleship Yamato franchise ended up running aground on copyright ownership issues after Final Yamato (1983) because both series concept originator Yoshinobu Nishizaki and acclaimed artist and later developer Leiji Matsumoto both claimed to own the series copyright. This killed Yamato 2520 early in production and essentially took the Yamato franchise out of action for 19 years until the Tokyo courts finally resolved the matter in 2002, allowing the franchise to finally finish a new title (Great Yamato No.Zero in 2004.

The manga, now franchise, To Love-ru also ran aground on a rights issue and nearly ended forever. This, however, was a more bizarre case in that the illustrator Kentaro Yabuki had based one of the manga's main characters (Haruna Sairenji) on his wife and let the fact be known. When he and his wife ended up going through an extremely acrimonious divorce (that involved kidnapping, ransom, grand theft, and a host of other crimes) and custody battle, the manga got canceled and the franchise put on indefinite hiatus while they attempted to sort out whether using the character constituted using his wife's likeness. Publication resumed a year later under a new title once the dust had settled, with the contentious character more or less demoted to an extra.

Rozen Maiden almost died on the wire after a dispute between the producers and the publisher resulted in an abrupt cancellation and hiatus that was only resolved years later.

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Last edited by Seto Kaiba on Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:04 am
  

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dataweaver wrote:
I don't think the original holders much care whether or not they can use Robotech. They can use Macross (or Southern Cross, or Mospeada, depending on the holder); and especially in the case of Macross, that's far more than enough.

They might run into trademark issues using the word "Robotech" in Japan if they did... over there, the word is the brand name of an mildly terrifying motorized "adult novelty item".

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 1:54 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
dataweaver wrote:
I don't think the original holders much care whether or not they can use Robotech. They can use Macross (or Southern Cross, or Mospeada, depending on the holder); and especially in the case of Macross, that's far more than enough.

They might run into trademark issues using the word "Robotech" in Japan if they did... over there, the word is the brand name of an mildly terrifying motorized "adult novelty item".

I did not know this but it does explain some of the things that popped up on my Google search when I was trying to get artwork for vehicle sheets I was creating.

No matter how frelled up you think the world is, and most days I think we are at "peak frell", you can always find something that raises the bar.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:30 am
  

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Warshield73 wrote:
I did not know this but it does explain some of the things that popped up on my Google search when I was trying to get artwork for vehicle sheets I was creating.

It's actually pretty funny in a karmic sort of way.

As a franchise, Robotech long ago gave up on putting in the effort to build partnerships and create something meaningful in favor of quick-and-easy self-gratification in the form of just mining their fanbase's nostalgia for a quick buck every now and then. It's oddly appropriate the brand name would be shared with a device for those who've given up on relationships in favor of quick-and-easy self-gratification of a different type.

Amusingly it's not the first time another company used the name "Robotech" for something. There's a line of pool-cleaning machines marketed under that brand in the US as well... including, amusingly, the Robotech 3000.


Warshield73 wrote:
No matter how frelled up you think the world is, and most days I think we are at "peak frell", you can always find something that raises the bar.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."


EDIT: Fixed my quote.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:05 pm
  

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:15 pm
  

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Seto wrote:
Of all the expurgated anime titles that were released in the west in the 80's and beyond, Robotech was the only one that used material from multiple unrelated shows including one that wasn't a one-and-done property.

This is not correct. Voltron also falls under this heading, though none of the series it used had sequels AFAIK.

80s Voltron released products from 3 separate lines under the Voltron name (Voltron #1-3, Voltron of the Far/Near/Mid Universe). When it came to making the show however the plan was for 3 shows to contribute, but those plans where changed and WEP commissioned new episodes based on Go Lion designs along with a crossover movie instead of the planned Near-Universe/Voltron-I).

The 3 shows planned to contribute are:
-Beast King Go Lion (aka Lion Voltron/Voltron-III)
-Armored Fleet Dairugger XV (aka Vehicle Voltron/Voltron-II)
-Lightspeed Electroid Albegas (this was dropped from the show, but toys were still marketed from it under the Voltron name)

None of the originals spawned sequels AFAIK, so they aren't like RT in that regard. When it comes to Voltron the emphasis is more on more popular Lions in terms of continued development. Voltron has also been arguably more successful than RT in terms of producing new animated products.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:28 pm
  

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There was an episode commissioned that had “Lion Voltron” and “Vehicle Voltron” team up, which could be thought of as Voltron's equivalent to Robotech's Sentinels.

And while Legendary Defender Voltron (the Netflix reboot) was based almost entirely on the Lions, the very last episode of the series teased the creation of the Vehicle team as the Lions' successor. I doubt we'll see anything more than that; but they did do that much.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:35 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
Of all the expurgated anime titles that were released in the west in the 80's and beyond, Robotech was the only one that used material from multiple unrelated shows including one that wasn't a one-and-done property.

This is not correct. Voltron also falls under this heading, though none of the series it used had sequels AFAIK.

No, it's correct... you just misinterpreted the statement.

Robotech was the only one that combined material from multiple, unrelated shows including a show that WAS NOT a one-and-done property.

Neither of Voltron's component shows - Beast King GoLion and Armored Fleet Dairugger XV - received any further development from their creator (Toei Animation) once their broadcast runs in Japan were concluded. They, like the Lightspeed Electroid Albegas series that had been slated for adaptation, were one-and-done properties that did not spawn any sequels or a franchise in their unexpurgated form. Likewise, Force Five included two shows that were part of franchises (Getter Robo G and UFO Robot Grendizer) but the format was five stand-alone adaptations presented anthology-style. Battle of the Planets was made after Science Ninja Team Gatchaman had a movie out, but Battle of the Planets adapted a single series only.

Robotech is the only one I've yet found where multiple, unrelated shows were being adapted together and one of them already had a burgeoning franchise of its own... Macross.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:38 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Robotech will just irrevocably cease to be.

I am a Macross fan, and you have no idea how happy this makes me. #sorrynotsorry.
I like Robotech only in so far as Macross was part of it, but Macross was still better than the Macross arc of Robotech.
It might be schadenfreude, it might be petty, but I find myself unable to care. Sentinels always felt halfassed to me, as did shadow chronicles, though Chronicles was better, imo. Then again, Sentinels was 30 years ago, and Chronicles was only a decade ago, and memory can be a funny thing sometimes.

If Palladium picks up the rights to the materials a third time, I'm relieved that it will have to be to Macross, and not to Robotech. We might see treatments of the various sequel series. Something I for one would look forward to. (where starships are powered by nuclear science rather than marijuana)

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:04 am
  

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torjones wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Robotech will just irrevocably cease to be.

I am a Macross fan, and you have no idea how happy this makes me. #sorrynotsorry.
I like Robotech only in so far as Macross was part of it, but Macross was still better than the Macross arc of Robotech.
It might be schadenfreude, it might be petty, but I find myself unable to care. Sentinels always felt halfassed to me, as did shadow chronicles, though Chronicles was better, imo. Then again, Sentinels was 30 years ago, and Chronicles was only a decade ago, and memory can be a funny thing sometimes.

If Palladium picks up the rights to the materials a third time, I'm relieved that it will have to be to Macross, and not to Robotech. We might see treatments of the various sequel series. Something I for one would look forward to. (where starships are powered by nuclear science rather than marijuana)
I'm also a Macross fan. I mean “also” in two ways: you're a Macross fan and so am I; and, I'm a Robotech fan as well as a Macross fan. In the latter regard, I'm going to miss Robotech when it's gone; and while I'm keenly aware of the tension between the two, I wish that it hadn't come to this and absolutely cannot take joy in Robotech's end; and it's still in the “too soon” realm, so I rather resent your schattenfreude and would prefer that you keep it to yourself.

But as I said, I'm a Macross fan too; and I look forward to being able to see more of it through legitimate channels.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:54 am
  

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torjones wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Robotech will just irrevocably cease to be.

If Palladium picks up the rights to the materials a third time, I'm relieved that it will have to be to Macross, and not to Robotech. We might see treatments of the various sequel series. Something I for one would look forward to. (where starships are powered by nuclear science rather than marijuana)

After the Robotech RPG Tactics fiasco, I don't think anyone would be willing to license their IP to Palladium Books.

Long-time Palladium Books fans might be willing to forgive or overlook it, but there's really no coming back from that kind of highly publicized scandal. Especially when it involved financial misreporting over a time span measured in YEARS. For any business looking at a partnership or licensing arrangement with Palladium that's going to be a red flag big enough to carpet all of Alaska.

There is also the lesser consideration that Palladium Books only really got the licenses to Robotech and Macross II because they were the only bidder. I'd expect a bigger, more successful property from a well-known and well-respected director to draw the attention of bigger fish... and, to be frank, most of the industry counts as "bigger fish" these days. Palladium never really left the 1980s when it came to product quality.



dataweaver wrote:
I'm also a Macross fan. I mean “also” in two ways: you're a Macross fan and so am I; and, I'm a Robotech fan as well as a Macross fan. In the latter regard, I'm going to miss Robotech when it's gone; and while I'm keenly aware of the tension between the two, I wish that it hadn't come to this and absolutely cannot take joy in Robotech's end; and it's still in the “too soon” realm, [...]

I'd recommend either looking the other way or making peace with it, because there's going to be an awful lot of celebration when Robotech is well and truly pronounced dead.

Harmony Gold USA pissed off a LOT of people over the years. Macross fans have the biggest axe to grind thanks to Harmony Gold's persistent efforts to block all Macross releases from the western markets, Carl Macek's incessant dishonest claims about - and badmouthing of - the franchise, having to resort to piracy to experience the shows at all, and missing out on the vast majority of Macross's published material because of the shortage of fan translators. That said, Macross fans have only the biggest axe, the Transformers fans and BattleTech/MechWarrior fans have their own thanks to the various lawsuits that ranged from hilariously spurious to wholly justified over the years.

(Celebration in Camp BattleTech is likely to be short-lived when they realize that all that will change is who's suing their franchise's owners for copyright infringement.)

Frankly, as one of the Macross fandom's more active fan translators, I'll do my fair share of celebrating once we start seeing Macross publications being made available in English. I spend a lot of my free time and a lot of money poring over Macross books and magazine articles to make them available to fans who haven't spent years learning Japanese. Having that free time and the extra cash back would be quite welcome. (A professional translation firm's estimation of my work suggests I've done close to a quarter million dollars of free work for the fandom so far.)



dataweaver wrote:
[...] so I rather resent your schattenfreude and would prefer that you keep it to yourself.

Just FYI, "schatten" is German for "shadow".

I suspect what you were aiming for was "scheißenfreude"...

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:24 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
dataweaver wrote:
I'm also a Macross fan. I mean “also” in two ways: you're a Macross fan and so am I; and, I'm a Robotech fan as well as a Macross fan. In the latter regard, I'm going to miss Robotech when it's gone; and while I'm keenly aware of the tension between the two, I wish that it hadn't come to this and absolutely cannot take joy in Robotech's end; and it's still in the “too soon” realm, [...]

I'd recommend either looking the other way or making peace with it, because there's going to be an awful lot of celebration when Robotech is well and truly pronounced dead.
Yeah, well, this is a forum that, while technically covering both properties (because of the Macross II RPG) has historically been a center for discussion by Robotech fans. Between that and the fact that the actual end is still roughly two years away, my problem was with the celebratory note being posted here and now. I don't care how justified you think such remarks are; it's still a wrong place, wrong time issue.

I know you view your role to be a sort of Macross evangelist, seeking to convert Robotech heathens away from their folly. But show some tact.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Frankly, as one of the Macross fandom's more active fan translators, I'll do my fair share of celebrating once we start seeing Macross publications being made available in English. I spend a lot of my free time and a lot of money poring over Macross books and magazine articles to make them available to fans who haven't spent years learning Japanese. Having that free time and the extra cash back would be quite welcome. (A professional translation firm's estimation of my work suggests I've done close to a quarter million dollars of free work for the fandom so far.)
Yeah; and I'll be right there with you. As I said, I'm also a Macross fan. But there's a world of difference between celebrating “more Macross stuff!” and celebrating “no more Robotech!” The first is the sorry of thing you'd have to actively hate Macross to object to; the second is just plain mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:35 pm
  

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This hasn't been the center for robotech discussion in any way shape or form for the better part of a decade. Seto is a realist not an evangelist. I too have made my peace with this and look forward to the end. Maybe it's about time you do the same instead waxing poetic and drawing it out needlessly.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech gone.
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:50 pm
  

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This hasn't been a center for discussion for much of anything recently; I'll grant you that. But what discussion has occurred here has been focused on Robotech, and the majority of those who visit this forum generally do so because they like Robotech. I still say that this is very much the wrong place to be going “Robotech is dying/dead/gone! Hah, hah!” Which is very much what Torjones did: he deliberately referenced a feeling of scheißenfreude concerning Robotech's demise, the sense of joy that others are suffering.

So no, I'm not going to just turn the other cheek. If someone's going to be deliberately spiteful, the problem is with him, not me.


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