Board index » MDC Worlds » Robotech® - The Shadow Chronicles® - Macross II®

 


Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
 Post subject: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 8:18 pm
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:46 pm
Posts: 558
Location: "The Guides to the Megaverse(tm)" Podcast
Comment: Rifter Contributer 79, 81,82,83,84
Mini-missiles in robotech are deadly, but I never hear anyone talk about them, especially when from a zentradi female ace.

-Gets P.P. bonus in addition to pilot's mecha skills
-Volley rules
-Cannot be jammed
-Cannot be flared



and we have to beat their roll to get a hit, and even as such, unless we're using an equal amount of missiles (fat chance), there's no guarantee to destroy the volley.

_________________
"The Guides to the Megaverse(tm)" Podcast at https://guidesmegaverse.podbean.com/
Author of "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79, "Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81, "Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
"Saving the World", and "On the Hunt" - Rifter 83
and lastly, my baby, my long term project... The Dark City of Cascade - Rifter 84.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:18 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6176
Location: WI
zerombr wrote:
-Gets P.P. bonus in addition to pilot's mecha skills
-Volley rules
-Cannot be jammed
-Cannot be flared

Not to mention you really can't shoot them down. If you look at the duration of their flight from maximum range at their listed flight speeds the result is a very short travel time (depending on the warhead between 3-7seconds, with most ~3sec). So basically if you fire those missiles close enough to target there is no real defense without having something like 8+ attacks (the closer you get the more attacks you need to counter the shorter flight distance).

It might be possible to jam/flare a mini missile. Given the trajectory those missiles tend to follow it is hard to believe they don't have some type of guidance system, which means they can be jammed.

zerombr wrote:
and we have to beat their roll to get a hit, and even as such, unless we're using an equal amount of missiles (fat chance), there's no guarantee to destroy the volley.

I don't know where you're getting this, but everything is wrong here:
1. no where in the counter missile rules does it state the strike roll has to exceed the strike roll of the shooter. that only applies to parry or dodges or rolls.
2. you do not need to fire an equal amount of missiles, by the rules you can fire a smaller number of missiles and you have a pretty good chance of destroying the volley (2E does state an equal number of missiles has a better chance than smaller number).


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:07 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5031
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
zerombr wrote:
Mini-missiles in robotech are deadly, but I never hear anyone talk about them, especially when from a zentradi female ace.

They're not really THAT good. They've got no special bonuses of their own, they're unguided so hitting is all or nothing, the maximum range is tiny so you're facing every weapon your enemy has if you want to get close enough to actually use them, they aren't generally mounted in large numbers and when they are the rate of fire is pretty limited, and the average damage for one is half or less what a short-range missile does and their blast radii are tiny so if you don't hit you basically just wasted the ammo.

Plus most of the mecha that face large numbers of mini-missiles have autododge with SIGNIFICANT bonuses so they're not even giving up a melee attack to evade.


zerombr wrote:
and we have to beat their roll to get a hit, and even as such, unless we're using an equal amount of missiles (fat chance), there's no guarantee to destroy the volley.

That's not accurate at all.



ShadowLogan wrote:
So basically if you fire those missiles close enough to target there is no real defense without having something like 8+ attacks (the closer you get the more attacks you need to counter the shorter flight distance).

Or autododge.



ShadowLogan wrote:
It might be possible to jam/flare a mini missile. Given the trajectory those missiles tend to follow it is hard to believe they don't have some type of guidance system, which means they can be jammed.

The RT2E core book says they're not guided (pg241, right column, 3rd paragraph from the bottom).

The OSM doesn't have anything analogous to Palladium's "mini-missile" category apart from man-portable rocket launchers. The micro-missiles in Macross are SRMs designed for swarm firing, not a category below a short ranged missile. The proliferation of powerful ECM and active stealth in that series mean that most of those were using infrared homing as their primary guidance system (often supplemented with other forms of guidance). For MOSPEADA it was radar guidance.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:17 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6176
Location: WI
@Seto
I agree Auto-Dodge is a potential option, but not everyone has that option (out ~179 mecha units in 2E, not counting Marines, how many can actually Auto-Dodge? I think I count 22 IINM, though these are more likely to be in the hands of PCs).

Megaversally speaking it has been possible to jam a mini-missile, that is why I said "might" (I know they are supposed to be unguided by RAW). In the Rifts setting, Mini Missiles are also unguided (IINM the only Palladium setting with GUIDED Mini Missiles has been Macross2). Rifts WB14 pg186: "Note that this jamming ability applies to 'smart bombs' as well as mini missiles and other types of guided missiles." This is in RMB-era book, and the exact system was used in a RUE-era SB (Shemerrian Nation) but removed mini-missiles from the list. So take that as you want.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:21 pm
  

User avatar
Adventurer

Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:46 pm
Posts: 558
Location: "The Guides to the Megaverse(tm)" Podcast
Comment: Rifter Contributer 79, 81,82,83,84
I'm not sure how you guys resolve shooting down the missiles then. but its possible I missed something.

Autododges could work, but still, facing down a, oh....+7-+12 to strike with a zentradi ace, with a rather weak autododge (never really gets that high for me) that you can't roll with a punch with, is risky.

As for range, that's never really been too big a deal for my group, hmmm. Maybe we should look into range more.

_________________
"The Guides to the Megaverse(tm)" Podcast at https://guidesmegaverse.podbean.com/
Author of "Setting the Stage" - Rifter 79, "Hitting the Streets" - Rifter 81, "Hitting the Gym" - Rifter 82
"Saving the World", and "On the Hunt" - Rifter 83
and lastly, my baby, my long term project... The Dark City of Cascade - Rifter 84.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:12 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5031
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
@Seto
I agree Auto-Dodge is a potential option, but not everyone has that option (out ~179 mecha units in 2E, not counting Marines, how many can actually Auto-Dodge? I think I count 22 IINM, though these are more likely to be in the hands of PCs).

Granted, but the era where mini-missile spam is most prevalent is also the one where auto-dodge is most prevalent.



zerombr wrote:
I'm not sure how you guys resolve shooting down the missiles then. but its possible I missed something.

Page 244 of the RT2E core book.

You don't have to hit every missile to bring down a volley... you just have to hit and destroy one missile in the volley, which gives you a 30% chance that its detonation will destroy 1d4 other missiles, a 30% chance that it will destroy half of the volley, and a 40% chance that it will destroy the entire volley. If you use missiles, you get a 75% chance that you'll destroy the entire volley provided you fire at least four missiles at it, and a 100% chance if you're firing a number of missiles equal or greater to the volley size as long as your strike roll succeeds.



zerombr wrote:
Autododges could work, but still, facing down a, oh....+7-+12 to strike with a zentradi ace, with a rather weak autododge (never really gets that high for me) that you can't roll with a punch with, is risky.

You've got similarly large bonuses to dodge on an ace, and autododge bonuses are usually 4+ or better. The Q-Rau gets +7. Regular dodge bonuses routinely get up to similar territory with strike bonuses.



zerombr wrote:
As for range, that's never really been too big a deal for my group, hmmm. Maybe we should look into range more.

Paging Private Jenkins, Private Leeroy Jenkins...

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:12 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6176
Location: WI
zerombr wrote:
I'm not sure how you guys resolve shooting down the missiles then. but its possible I missed something.

By RAW, I've played more 1E ruleset than 2E, but they are functionally identical (missiles fired at you, you shoot them down by making a strike roll on a successful hit you roll damage, depending on the type of weapon determines the percent chance of destroying the volley IF you destroyed the missile you where shooting at, any missiles that avoid damage continue on to strike you) with the only real difference being the percentage value breakdown between editions.

ShadowLogan wrote:
(IINM the only Palladium setting with GUIDED Mini Missiles has been Macross2).

I should add this just for prosperity: Naruni Enterprises in DB3 offers Mini Missile guidance packages, both guided and smart, in the Rifts Phaseworld Setting. Found that last night while looking for something else.

Seto wrote:
The OSM doesn't have anything analogous to Palladium's "mini-missile" category apart from man-portable rocket launchers

That doesn't surprise me. Palladium's missile categorization really fails to line up with real world system equivalents (they might have at one point, but by modern standards they don't fit). Heck the "unguided" aspect doesn't really lineup with the animation either, that seems to be a copy & paste error from Rifts Ultimate Edition (which might work for Rifts but not for RT).

If missiles are all unguided now, it sort of makes things like chaff/flare found on all the VFs useless for missile defense against anything less than an LRM (maybe even an MRM).


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:54 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10519
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
To avoid having to worry about auto-dodge...by the rules just fire 4 missiles every single time....can't dodge thus can't auto-dodge....

(yes it is stupid but it IS the rules regardless of if most of us houserule it otherwise.....)

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:01 pm
  

User avatar
Rifts® Trivia Master

Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 3:37 pm
Posts: 13086
Location: Missouri
zerombr wrote:
Mini-missiles in robotech are deadly, but I never hear anyone talk about them, especially when from a zentradi female ace.

-Gets P.P. bonus in addition to pilot's mecha skills
-Volley rules
-Cannot be jammed
-Cannot be flared



and we have to beat their roll to get a hit, and even as such, unless we're using an equal amount of missiles (fat chance), there's no guarantee to destroy the volley.

actually you don't get the PP bonus. the only non-platform based bonuses that apply are the ones from WP heavy weapons and the +1 from Weapon Systems. (the latter for vehicle mounted only.) (non-platform meaning ones that aren't coming from the particular weapon system or mecha firing them)

and by the rules, they can be jammed and flared.

all of which indicates that despite statements to the contrary, they actually are guided to a degree, it is just very limited guidance compared to bigger missiles.

and the rules actually are very good for shooting down missiles. per the rules under missile volleys, if you hit and destroy as little as one missile it is a straight percentile roll. 01-30% destroys 1-4 missiles, 31-60% destroys half, and 61-00% destroys all.
given that most volleys tend to be rather small that is a 2/3rds chance to turn an incoming volley into something survivable. nearly 100% if they are firing minimum volley size.

_________________
Author of Rifts: Deep Frontier (Rifter 70)
Author of Rifts:Scandinavia (current project)
Image
* All fantasy should have a solid base in reality.
* Good sense about trivialities is better than nonsense about things that matter.

-Max Beerbohm
Visit my Website


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:05 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5031
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
If missiles are all unguided now, it sort of makes things like chaff/flare found on all the VFs useless for missile defense against anything less than an LRM (maybe even an MRM).

Doubly so when almost nothing in RT2E can take long-range missiles... it's a weird oversight in the game.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:24 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10519
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
If missiles are all unguided now, it sort of makes things like chaff/flare found on all the VFs useless for missile defense against anything less than an LRM (maybe even an MRM).

Doubly so when almost nothing in RT2E can take long-range missiles... it's a weird oversight in the game.


Thus why people like me do what we have done by "fixing" things.....

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 11:51 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6176
Location: WI
Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
If missiles are all unguided now, it sort of makes things like chaff/flare found on all the VFs useless for missile defense against anything less than an LRM (maybe even an MRM).

Doubly so when almost nothing in RT2E can take long-range missiles... it's a weird oversight in the game.

It is, one that ultimately forces one to consider just what Palladium envisions when they say "guided", "smart", and "dumb" missile. Per text we know:
-"the mini missile is not self-guided" (pg244m)
-"Smart missiles are self guided smart bombs" (pg242m)
-"Mini Missiles are NOT guided missiles" (pg242m)
-"Unless indicated otherwise in a specific weapon, mecha, vehicle, robots, spacecraft or launcher description, mini-missiles and most types of missiles are NOT guided...Some launch systems or additional targeting system may provide" a strike bonus (pg242m)
-"Generally, most self-guided missiles are preprogrammed to respond to specific" (varying sensory information) "that clearly identify the enemy".

All this taken together makes me wonder if mini-missiles, SRMs, and MRMs (non-smart option) actually posses some form of guidance, but take their cues from the launch platform (like laser guided munitions), and what Palladium really means by "smart" (and guided) types is akin to fire and forget systems in the real world, but command guidance (laser guided ex) for the "dumb" type. At least if we stick with the generic missile table. IF that is the actual case, then it means a Chaff/Flare would still be effective.


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:01 pm
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:36 am
Posts: 5031
Location: New Frontier Shipyard, Earth-Moon L5
Comment: "My theories appall you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters, and you don't like my tie."
ShadowLogan wrote:
It is, one that ultimately forces one to consider just what Palladium envisions when they say "guided", "smart", and "dumb" missile. [...]

It's a mildly frustrating reminder that Palladium's writers are writing games heavily focused on war despite having relatively little knowledge of the military.

A missile is, by definition, a rocket with a guidance system. "Unguided missile" is a fundamentally oxymoronic statement.



ShadowLogan wrote:
All this taken together makes me wonder if mini-missiles, SRMs, and MRMs (non-smart option) actually posses some form of guidance, but take their cues from the launch platform (like laser guided munitions), and what Palladium really means by "smart" (and guided) types is akin to fire and forget systems in the real world, but command guidance (laser guided ex) for the "dumb" type. At least if we stick with the generic missile table. IF that is the actual case, then it means a Chaff/Flare would still be effective.

Any way you shake it, it's not really an accurate representation of the setting.

With the possible exception of Southern Cross, practically all of the missiles in Robotech's source material are depicted as "fire and forget" munitions.

_________________
Macross2.net - Home of the Macross Mecha Manual

Zer0 Kay wrote:
Damn you for anticipating my question. I've really got to unfoe you, your information is far more valuable than my sanity when dealing with your blunt callousness. :)


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:23 pm
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:40 pm
Posts: 9481
Comment: Palladium Books Canon is set solely by Kevin Siembieda, either in person, or by his approval of published material.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
So basically if you fire those missiles close enough to target there is no real defense without having something like 8+ attacks (the closer you get the more attacks you need to counter the shorter flight distance).

Or autododge.

I'm not up on the differences between Robotech and the rest of the Palladium games...
But can you dodge a missile volley in Robotech? Because in the rest of the system you can't... even with Autododge.

_________________
The rules are not a bludgeon with which to hammer a character into a game. They are a guide to how a group of friends can get together to weave a collective story that entertains everyone involved. We forget that at our peril.

Edmund Burke wrote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:20 am
  

User avatar
Knight

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 6176
Location: WI
eliakon wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
ShadowLogan wrote:
So basically if you fire those missiles close enough to target there is no real defense without having something like 8+ attacks (the closer you get the more attacks you need to counter the shorter flight distance).

Or autododge.

I'm not up on the differences between Robotech and the rest of the Palladium games...
But can you dodge a missile volley in Robotech? Because in the rest of the system you can't... even with Autododge.

You can not dodge a missile volley?
1E RT (main) pg38, 1E RT II (sent) pg51,Macross II RPG pg38, Heroes Unlimited (2E) pg81, 2E RT (TSC) pg243 (manga), RMB pg41, RUE pg364:

"Contrary to what one might think, you can dodge one, two and even three, guided missiles." followed by "However, it is impossible to dodge a volley of four or more missiles launched simultaneously." (some sources break this up, some run it together).


          Top  
 
 Post subject: Re: mini-missiles
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:52 am
  

User avatar
Palladin

Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 8:33 pm
Posts: 10519
Location: Peterborough, Ontario
Comment: Yeah yeah yeah just give me my damn XP already :)
I also pointed out the 4 missile caveat a ways up the thread......

_________________
I am very opinionated. Yes I rub people the wrong way but at the end of the day I just enjoy good hard discussion and will gladly walk away agreeing to not agree :D

Email - jlaflamme7521@hotmail.com, Facebook - Jaymz LaFlamme, Robotech.com - Icerzone

\m/


          Top  
 
 
Post new topic Reply to topic



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users


Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group