how are Nightbane with Astral Self not winning war solo?

[Axelmania]

Nightlords don't seem to have many deterrants in the real world for dealing with entities who can fly around at 670mph and travel through walls. Necrophim and Torturians seem decent but they lack the regeneration rate of Nightbane so are vulnerable to hit and run guerrilla tactics.

Astral coexistence with the material plane greatly favors this. 670mph is 972 feet per second, so in a melee action an astral entity can not only be out of a Hunter's sensing range (theirs is better than Hounds or Hound Masters) but even Nightvision!

So even though Necrophim/Torturians can match the flight speed, I'm not sure how feasible it is for them to tail someone. Think about cover: an astral traveler could simply fly into the earth, completely eliminating visibility. How would another astral traveler tail them then if in a mere moment they can get out of the sensing ranges of your best guys?

Astral Lords / Mages aren't really as much of an issue since they are delicate, lack the regen, require a minute's concentration to go Astral (so no quick escapes) and have to pay ISP every minute to coexist, unlike Astral Self which is basicall permanent Astral Advantage until you bother to pay the PPE to shift back, and with your flight speed it'd be pretty easy to go find a Ley Line to recharge at faster.

Torturian capture weapons seem the best deterrant but the description sounds like they only need one each, so the Nightbane would just have to dodge it... or maybe even go physical? Could an astral net still grip someone who shifts to physical form?

[Nightmartree]

Shhhhhhhhh I have a nightbane sorcerer who uses astral to avoid getting torn up while the heavies play, don't make the GMs angry!

and likely best answer would be a mix of "Psychic emanations from the suffering and horror of their victims have warped the astral plane here drawing in unpleasant creatures who feast on human suffering...and the odd astral traveler foolish enough to approach" and likely some form of pseudo magic that blocks astral travel or even nastier drags the astral form to reality, maybe forming an ectoplasm form and binding you to it to allow the minions to get up close and personal with your insides

my other idea was just they like to set up shop were nasty things from the other side keep hold, either beings that don't care whats on this side of reality or things they could make deals with to have them watch the astral for them, likely paid in human suffering, cause lets face it, humans are a valuable resource.

And if either of these don't float your boat then set a trap as a Night Prince gets tired of your hit and run sabotaging his plans and lures you into his lair before an army of astral minions surrounds you, doesn't matter how fast you run if your running right into them in both phys world and astral, plus surrounded in darklands too, cause death is a great gift

[Shark_Force]

"flawlessly dodge all the things all the time" is not the best plan i've ever heard.

it only takes one whip and you're screwed.

and no, going physical won't protect you.

[eliakon]

Round 1 Action 1 Nightbane shows up
Round 1 Action 2 Tortoriun that was invisibly lurking makes a surprise strike with whip
Round 1 Action 3 Tortoriun pulls out the soul of said Nightbane
Resistance is now down a Nightbane with that particular talent and has to go find another one.

(remember while the players can pick their talents in universe talents are not well understood and seem to be spontaneous. Thus it isn't like the various factions can simply 'farm' Astraly Adept Nightbane.)

If the Nightlord is bored it just sends a few dozen (or few hundred) Astral Entities after the Nightbane with orders to "fetch that"

Or shifts some hounds and hunters into the Astral so that they too can move at Astral speeds and then send them out to play

Or...

Seriously, Astral Shenanigans are a game that two can play, and when your foe has more pieces to put on the board than you do, and can afford to sacrifice huge numbers of pawns to capture your pieces... while you have no pawns at all...
Yeah, not a good game to play.

[Razorwing]

Round 1 Action 3 Tortoriun pulls out the soul of said Nightbane.

WRONG... Torturian whips do not seperate one's "soul" from their body... it merely forces one into their astral form... which a Nightbane with this Talent is already in. The Nightbane isn't killed... but very likely pissed with the Torturian that has now exposed itself.

Torturian whips are not instant kill weapons for anyone... they are used to drag astral travelers off to be... well... tortured. If the one being dragged off knows how to fight and defend themselves, they stand a chance (depending how well they can do both) on getting free. Nightbane in this instance are usually more than capable of dealing with this sort of thing.

Do not treat this power as the equivalent to the Soul Drinking power of Rune Weapons... it isn't anywhere close to being similar.

[Shark_Force]

Round 1 Action 3 Tortoriun pulls out the soul of said Nightbane.

WRONG... Torturian whips do not seperate one's "soul" from their body... it merely forces one into their astral form... which a Nightbane with this Talent is already in. The Nightbane isn't killed... but very likely pissed with the Torturian that has now exposed itself.

Torturian whips are not instant kill weapons for anyone... they are used to drag astral travelers off to be... well... tortured. If the one being dragged off knows how to fight and defend themselves, they stand a chance (depending how well they can do both) on getting free. Nightbane in this instance are usually more than capable of dealing with this sort of thing.

Do not treat this power as the equivalent to the Soul Drinking power of Rune Weapons... it isn't anywhere close to being similar.

the whip forces you astral. then they use their restraints. you now get to make an escape artist check at a 45% to 65% penalty (some from the whip, some from the restraints) unless you're quite strong... in either case they spend their actions damaging you, and you spend your actions damaging you.

especially if there are several of them (per nightbane).

it isn't an instakill. but you are pretty screwed if it works.

again, dodge everything flawlessly is not a good plan, and if you don't, you are seriously screwed.

brute force is not going to work for the nightbane; the nightlords have a lot more brute force to throw back at them.

now, this is not to say that astral form cannot be a useful tool, but if you're just thinking you're invincible, you're going to have some serious problems.

(also, to be honest, i'm kinda assuming every astral capable nightbane is busy fighting on the astral plane where time is something like 2,000 times as fast, and you really *really* need to keep the nightlords from doing their work at 2,000 times the speed).

[eliakon]

Yeah, my bad. This is what I get for posting based on half recalled memories of something and not re-reading the creature carefully first.
The whip only "pulls the character out of their body" (which presumably means the astral self) and only causes great pain inflicting some penalties. Since you just lost two actions your pretty screwed if they decide to put a restraint (or two) on you. If you have a really high PS you can break free, if not then sucks to be you.
So yeah, it isn't a soul eating power.
But for a person trying to 'win the war solo' it is pretty near to instant death if you get hit.
And since all it takes to basically assure a hit is to move in packs, or be stealthed or invisible or otherwise be able to strike where the person can't see their first attack coming...
Yeah, not good. Not good at all.

[Razorwing]

Yeah... Nightbane with this one talent aren't going to win the War solo... the Nightlords also have Astral Avatars... which are just as scary powerful as any of their other Avatars.

No... the Nightlords are not so foolish as to leave this front unguarded... they are just putting more focus on the mortal realm since the number of people who can Astral Project is significantly lower.

[drewkitty ~..~]

Yeah, my bad. This is what I get for posting based on half recalled memories of something and not re-reading the creature carefully first.
The whip only "pulls the character out of their body" (which presumably means the astral self) and only causes great pain inflicting some penalties. Since you just lost two actions your pretty screwed if they decide to put a restraint (or two) on you. If you have a really high PS you can break free, if not then sucks to be you.
So yeah, it isn't a soul eating power.
But for a person trying to 'win the war solo' it is pretty near to instant death if you get hit.
And since all it takes to basically assure a hit is to move in packs, or be stealthed or invisible or otherwise be able to strike where the person can't see their first attack coming...
Yeah, not good. Not good at all.

NBs are fully Morphus when they 'go astral' so the Torturian has to be careful about attacking NB if they pull the person's astral self out of their bodies.

A agree they working solo is being at a disadvantage.

[Shark_Force]

Yeah, my bad. This is what I get for posting based on half recalled memories of something and not re-reading the creature carefully first.
The whip only "pulls the character out of their body" (which presumably means the astral self) and only causes great pain inflicting some penalties. Since you just lost two actions your pretty screwed if they decide to put a restraint (or two) on you. If you have a really high PS you can break free, if not then sucks to be you.
So yeah, it isn't a soul eating power.
But for a person trying to 'win the war solo' it is pretty near to instant death if you get hit.
And since all it takes to basically assure a hit is to move in packs, or be stealthed or invisible or otherwise be able to strike where the person can't see their first attack coming...
Yeah, not good. Not good at all.

NBs are fully Morphus when they 'go astral' so the Torturian has to be careful about attacking NB if they pull the person's astral self out of their bodies.

A agree they working solo is being at a disadvantage.

careful is relative. a nightbane in morphus form is more dangerous than a normal person. but the restraints are no joke... if you don't have enough strength, you will probably never escape them. even if you do, you've probably just took a lot of damage, and there's no particular reason to presume that the torturians are working solo. the nightbane do not have the numbers advantage after all.

[drewkitty ~..~]

And NB can spontaneously gain new talents.

*shrugs*....heads off into the back yard to play with the dog*

[Axelmania]

"flawlessly dodge all the things all the time" is not the best plan i've ever heard.

it only takes one whip and you're screwed.

and no, going physical won't protect you.

The whips need elaboration. I'm not even sure how long they are. We're told the Torturians are about 6 feet tall, the illustration on page 79 looks at least that but it's not an easy job to estimate due to all the curving and looping and so forth. It might possible be 12, but I think less than 18.

I'm not sure why you say "dodge", isn't using an automatic parry an option for defending against whips?

Although it says these can force people out of their bodies, we don't know the actual rules for that process, only for hitting (inflicts damage and produces constant agony) or entangling.

The whips wouldn't be my prime worry. -2 attacks / -2 bonuses is rough, but it's only 4D6 damage. It doesn't benefit from SNPS like their swords! The average Necrophim with PS20 will be doing 2D6+5 damage, so that's 4D6+5 per sword slash, much better option. The whip is just a first salvo to create some penalties. It doesn't say anything about accumulation so presumably those penalties are a 1 time thing and to maintain them you need to leave the whip in, meaning you can't do cumulative whippings.

The danger here is a Nightbane might plausible disarm/entangle the Necrophim's sword hand, leveling the playing field, or having them at a disadvantage if the Morphus provides any damage bonuses.

Round 1 Action 1 Nightbane shows up
Round 1 Action 2 Tortoriun that was invisibly lurking makes a surprise strike with whip
Round 1 Action 3 Tortoriun pulls out the soul of said Nightbane
Resistance is now down a Nightbane with that particular talent and has to go find another one.

I don't think Nightbane with Astral Self are explicitly included in the list they can do this to. While it does mention "psychic, mage or Nightbane with the ability to astral project or transfer" only Nightbane Mystics/Sorcerers might have the Astral Projection spell. This does not mention the Astral Self ability, which is not actually one of those named abilities despite operating similarly.

Plus again: knowing these whips can rip out souls doesn't mean we know how easy that is to do. Should we just assume it is an automatic thing done following a successful striking attack or entangling defense?

We have the story of Gordon the reporter (aka "Gordy") as a guideline...

Agonizing pain stabbed his back. He felt himself yanked up even as he collapsed.

That does sound pretty quickly, but then, Gordy sounds like a pathetic human who got surprise-attacked. It was also by TWO. I'm not sure it's that easy with a SINGLE necrophim attacking from the FRONT against a BANE.

the whip forces you astral. then they use their restraints. you now get to make an escape artist check at a 45% to 65% penalty (some from the whip, some from the restraints) unless you're quite strong... in either case they spend their actions damaging you, and you spend your actions damaging you.

Nightbane to tend to be quite strong. You only need PS24 to escape straps/wire and PS25 to escape a Fishing Net. Morphus have a base +10 so you'd only need 14/15 in your Facade, easy to attain with physical skills which many players select. Barring that, plenty of morphus traits can result in PS bonuses while Darkwhip can create virtually unlimited PS.

Also Necrophim explicitly usually only carry ONE of these discs, so if you parry or dodge the discs before it hits you, crisis averted.

It only takes 1 attempt to get free, so that's a mere bonus 1D6 damage from straps, Nets are better doing 2D6+3D6 and Barbed Wire is best at 3D6+4D6.

But this is all damage that Nightbane can survive, and quickly regenerate if they run away afterward. Meanwhile, the necrophim has lost their 1-shot weapon, and we have no idea how easy it is to restore those.

again, dodge everything flawlessly is not a good plan, and if you don't, you are seriously screwed.

I am pretty sure astral entities can parry astral weapons.

brute force is not going to work for the nightbane; the nightlords have a lot more brute force to throw back at them.

That depends on how many Torturians there are.

(also, to be honest, i'm kinda assuming every astral capable nightbane is busy fighting on the astral plane where time is something like 2,000 times as fast, and you really *really* need to keep the nightlords from doing their work at 2,000 times the speed).

This applies to the Outer Plane but I don't know if the Nightlords make realms there or if they prefer Inner Plane where it passes same speed as Earth.

I don't think Nightlords can work directly in Astral, I think it's only Astral Avatars there, and since they lack oversight they can get rebellious.

the Nightlords also have Astral Avatars... which are just as scary powerful as any of their other Avatars.

I'm not sure if those are able to leave the Astral Plane and coexist in the real world or not. Page 73 says "For the most part, avatars can only be found in the Ba'al domains .. or leading a true army of Hounds, Hunters and Necrophim" but the latter I think could just be referring to attacks on other Astral Kingdoms via Astral Hounds / Astral Hunters mentioned on page 71.

Those we similarly know little about, such as whether or not they can be sent into the real world. "ASTRAL HOUNDS EVERYWHERE" would certainly make Astral Self a dangerous power. It might frighten a lot of children though since they can see astral projectors and hounds don't blend in as well as some more human nightbane morphi, and Hounds don't appear to be smart/subtle like hiding in walls where they will be obscured.

It doesn't mention any Astral Hound Masters or Astral Night Princes to lead them, after all, so if there were none it would be less organized. Hunters are slightly smarter on avg/max but not by much.

[Shark_Force]

the average PC chooses a bunch of physical skills because we're all optimizing for combat. build a character more organically ("this character was a banker before turning into a nightbane) and i bet it gets a lot less common.

and it only takes 1 attempt if you're strong enough. if you aren't, you're probably at -60% to your escape artist skill (and if you're not high level, that probably means your chance to succeed is actually negative). and again, it isn't likely to be one torturian. it's likely to be several. we know the nightlords have tons of minions. if they don't have tons of torturians yet, well, they can crank them out at 2,000 times the speed of the physical world, so i'm sure it won't take them long.

also, i'm not terribly convinced parrying the whip with your bare hands is a great idea, considering it causes pain by touch.

[Axelmania]

Even a Nightbane who begins as a banker could rationally pick up bodybuilding as a secondary skill at later levels (the ideal use of level-up secondaries since you don't have to worry about the lower percentages) as a result of responding to getting beat up by Hounds.

I'm not entirely clear how long it takes to make a torturian, or if just any human can become one. I seem to recall they need to be minor psychics with the astral projection power to start off with, which probably narrows the field quite a bit considering that there's no random psionics charts in this game like Rifts and Palladium Fantasy have.

The pain from the whip is from a successful strike, with barbs hitting flesh. A parry assumes you somehow manage to avoid the dangerous part of the weapon.

That said, I think PF has some rules where unarmed parried against weapons are without bonuses, could borrow that if bare hands parrying swords / barbed whips and similar feels too easy.

[Sir_Spirit]

the average PC chooses a bunch of physical skills because we're all optimizing for combat. build a character more organically ("this character was a banker before turning into a nightbane) and i bet it gets a lot less common.

and it only takes 1 attempt if you're strong enough. if you aren't, you're probably at -60% to your escape artist skill (and if you're not high level, that probably means your chance to succeed is actually negative).

Why roll that when you can blast it? Use a body weapon on it, or otherwise attack/destroy it.

also, i'm not terribly convinced parrying the whip with your bare hands is a great idea, considering it causes pain by touch.

Don't parry the whip, its not Indestructible, blast it, claw/weapon attack it, etc...
Or just attack the " hand" wielding it....
And I am not certain it can turn physical beings astral, it can pull out an astral body, if you have astral projection. For those that take physical form the Nightlords send a Necrophim to stake out something they want or their territory. They strike when the person goes astral.


And I doubt the Nightlords would bother sending more than a handful of torturians after a lone Nightbane. Like most of their resources they are best saved for controlling the media.
To be honest most of the successfull resistance groups likely use atleast one Astraling Nightbane anyways.

[Shark_Force]

the nightlords hate nightbane, and they're one of the few enemies the nightlords even consider remotely a threat. i don't imagine they typically find a nightbane and think "oh, we'd better conserve our resources". they've been a high priority since day 1.

and many nightbane won't have body weapons. blasting or otherwise destroying astral objects is likely to be problematic for most nightbane as well. particularly when they don't have a convenient handbook telling them everything they could ever want to know about torturians and their whips, or if they do, it's probably a trick or trap arranged by the nightlords to fool them into doing something really stupid.

but sure, if you're a nightbane, and you know exactly what the torturians are, the major sources of threat from them, and how to defeat them, you might try that. if that described the majority of nightbane, i'm sure the nightlords would be having a much more difficult time of it. but most nightbane weren't trained warriors possessing an intricate knowledge of the minions of the nightlords before they became nightbane. heck, a lot of nightbane are brand new (particularly including most PCs) and weren't even *adults* when Dark Day happened.

[Axelmania]

Let's assume Torturians are dealing with a bunch of inexperienced bad-at-combat Nightbane with Astral Self. Nightbane can't win, but they can flee...

At 670mph it should be very easy to fly out of eyeline and hide in the middle of some wall or floor so the Torturian doesn't know where to fly to get in range to attack you.

They're basically going to be incompetent unless Astral Hounds are sent into the real world, and I'm not even sure they could sniff quickly enough to get a bead on an Astral Self before it flies out of sniffing range.

[eliakon]

Let's assume Torturians are dealing with a bunch of inexperienced bad-at-combat Nightbane with Astral Self. Nightbane can't win, but they can flee...

At 670mph it should be very easy to fly out of eyeline and hide in the middle of some wall or floor so the Torturian doesn't know where to fly to get in range to attack you.

They're basically going to be incompetent unless Astral Hounds are sent into the real world, and I'm not even sure they could sniff quickly enough to get a bead on an Astral Self before it flies out of sniffing range.

Which suggests that they simply put up hounds in the real world.
How hard is that?
I mean they have hounds patrolling the real world already, Astral ones would be just as effective, go after threats that are significant and will have all the advantages that the aggressor has.


The reason that Nightbane with these powers are not winning the war, is that they are outnumbered millions to one by foes who have access to the same powers.

[Shark_Force]

Let's assume Torturians are dealing with a bunch of inexperienced bad-at-combat Nightbane with Astral Self. Nightbane can't win, but they can flee...

At 670mph it should be very easy to fly out of eyeline and hide in the middle of some wall or floor so the Torturian doesn't know where to fly to get in range to attack you.

They're basically going to be incompetent unless Astral Hounds are sent into the real world, and I'm not even sure they could sniff quickly enough to get a bead on an Astral Self before it flies out of sniffing range.

the torturians can move just as fast. just because the game handles things in discrete actions doesn't mean the torturians are sitting there doing nothing while the nightbane is running away. the torturians (provided they intend to spend their next action doing so) are moving along with them.

[dreicunan]

Let's assume Torturians are dealing with a bunch of inexperienced bad-at-combat Nightbane with Astral Self. Nightbane can't win, but they can flee...

At 670mph it should be very easy to fly out of eyeline and hide in the middle of some wall or floor so the Torturian doesn't know where to fly to get in range to attack you.

They're basically going to be incompetent unless Astral Hounds are sent into the real world, and I'm not even sure they could sniff quickly enough to get a bead on an Astral Self before it flies out of sniffing range.

the torturians can move just as fast. just because the game handles things in discrete actions doesn't mean the torturians are sitting there doing nothing while the nightbane is running away. the torturians (provided they intend to spend their next action doing so) are moving along with them.

At those speeds, it might be appropriate to have them both roll initiative. If the one attempting to escape wins, they manage to fly off quickly enough that the one wishing to follow has only a vague idea of the direction. If the one escaping loses, then their pursuer keeps up with them.

[Shark_Force]

Let's assume Torturians are dealing with a bunch of inexperienced bad-at-combat Nightbane with Astral Self. Nightbane can't win, but they can flee...

At 670mph it should be very easy to fly out of eyeline and hide in the middle of some wall or floor so the Torturian doesn't know where to fly to get in range to attack you.

They're basically going to be incompetent unless Astral Hounds are sent into the real world, and I'm not even sure they could sniff quickly enough to get a bead on an Astral Self before it flies out of sniffing range.

the torturians can move just as fast. just because the game handles things in discrete actions doesn't mean the torturians are sitting there doing nothing while the nightbane is running away. the torturians (provided they intend to spend their next action doing so) are moving along with them.

At those speeds, it might be appropriate to have them both roll initiative. If the one attempting to escape wins, they manage to fly off quickly enough that the one wishing to follow has only a vague idea of the direction. If the one escaping loses, then their pursuer keeps up with them.

if they didn't have some innate ability to handle those kinds of speeds, there would need to be a table where every single action you take within a few hundred feet of the earth's surface has you roll on it, and if you get unlucky you wind up buried somewhere in the earth and who knows what direction is what because there's no gravity and no landmarks (you can't even see your silver cord, the ground would be in the way).

the simple fact that the rules don't tell you about how hard it is to handle nape of the earth movement at mach speed in the astral means that astral beings *must* be exceptionally adept at dealing with the implications of fast movement, otherwise we wouldn't be able to use the same basic rules as in the regular physical world; the astral combat rules would need to be some sort of highly specialized system where all participants just kinda run around trying to find each other and react in time to their targets zipping past at relative velocities of up to mach 2, while trying to analyze whether that thing zipping past is your target or some other astral being.

if you couldn't instantly and intuitively react to sudden movement, you'd be equally unable to react to a sudden change in elevation, or to make a turn around a corner.

[dreicunan]

Let's assume Torturians are dealing with a bunch of inexperienced bad-at-combat Nightbane with Astral Self. Nightbane can't win, but they can flee...

At 670mph it should be very easy to fly out of eyeline and hide in the middle of some wall or floor so the Torturian doesn't know where to fly to get in range to attack you.

They're basically going to be incompetent unless Astral Hounds are sent into the real world, and I'm not even sure they could sniff quickly enough to get a bead on an Astral Self before it flies out of sniffing range.

the torturians can move just as fast. just because the game handles things in discrete actions doesn't mean the torturians are sitting there doing nothing while the nightbane is running away. the torturians (provided they intend to spend their next action doing so) are moving along with them.

At those speeds, it might be appropriate to have them both roll initiative. If the one attempting to escape wins, they manage to fly off quickly enough that the one wishing to follow has only a vague idea of the direction. If the one escaping loses, then their pursuer keeps up with them.

if they didn't have some innate ability to handle those kinds of speeds, there would need to be a table where every single action you take within a few hundred feet of the earth's surface has you roll on it, and if you get unlucky you wind up buried somewhere in the earth and who knows what direction is what because there's no gravity and no landmarks (you can't even see your silver cord, the ground would be in the way).

the simple fact that the rules don't tell you about how hard it is to handle nape of the earth movement at mach speed in the astral means that astral beings *must* be exceptionally adept at dealing with the implications of fast movement, otherwise we wouldn't be able to use the same basic rules as in the regular physical world; the astral combat rules would need to be some sort of highly specialized system where all participants just kinda run around trying to find each other and react in time to their targets zipping past at relative velocities of up to mach 2, while trying to analyze whether that thing zipping past is your target or some other astral being.

if you couldn't instantly and intuitively react to sudden movement, you'd be equally unable to react to a sudden change in elevation, or to make a turn around a corner.

The fact that the rules don't say anything means that the rules don't say anything, not that astral beings have a special ability to perceive the world while traveling at high speed. As you said, the same basic rules apply. So, if you have two people in the real world capable of flying at 670 mph (not including the sonic flight super power), would you also suddenly grant them the ability to perceive things perfectly? The rules don't. Astral projection states what the characters can do, and it does not grant improved perception. The fact that they can fly through everything obviates the need for being able to process what they see more quickly than normal. There is no real danger of smacking into anything apart from another astral traveler. If you are worried about that, slow down!

[Shark_Force]

The fact that the rules don't say anything means that the rules don't say anything, not that astral beings have a special ability to perceive the world while traveling at high speed. As you said, the same basic rules apply. So, if you have two people in the real world capable of flying at 670 mph (not including the sonic flight super power), would you also suddenly grant them the ability to perceive things perfectly? The rules don't. Astral projection states what the characters can do, and it does not grant improved perception. The fact that they can fly through everything obviates the need for being able to process what they see more quickly than normal. There is no real danger of smacking into anything apart from another astral traveler. If you are worried about that, slow down!

giving the ability to travel at 670 mph implies a number of other things that *must* inherently go with it. if they didn't, you wouldn't be able to fly at 670 mph. again, given that it uses perfectly bog-standard hand-to-hand combat rules with no modifications, those things that go along with the ability must inherently include the ability to cope with traveling at that speed. otherwise we would need a highly specialized set of rules for astral combat, not just instructions to handle it exactly the same as normal combat. astral combat must not be meaningfully different for astral beings than physical combat is for physical beings, otherwise it could not use the same rules, it would need to use different ones; rules on how to handle supersonic punches and body blocks, rules for even perceiving the person who pops out of the wall in front of you at 670 mph, rules for attempting to follow someone or lose them by sudden acceleration, rules for getting lost when you accidentally launch yourself half a mile into the earth and have no ability to sense direction or see any landmarks, etc.

the fact that the rules for astral combat are the same as the rules for physical combat tells us that the intention is for them to be largely similar, which in turn means that you must be about as capable of handling your astral body at 670 mph as you are of handling your physical body at normal speeds.

[dreicunan]

The fact that the rules don't say anything means that the rules don't say anything, not that astral beings have a special ability to perceive the world while traveling at high speed. As you said, the same basic rules apply. So, if you have two people in the real world capable of flying at 670 mph (not including the sonic flight super power), would you also suddenly grant them the ability to perceive things perfectly? The rules don't. Astral projection states what the characters can do, and it does not grant improved perception. The fact that they can fly through everything obviates the need for being able to process what they see more quickly than normal. There is no real danger of smacking into anything apart from another astral traveler. If you are worried about that, slow down!

giving the ability to travel at 670 mph implies a number of other things that *must* inherently go with it. if they didn't, you wouldn't be able to fly at 670 mph. again, given that it uses perfectly bog-standard hand-to-hand combat rules with no modifications, those things that go along with the ability must inherently include the ability to cope with traveling at that speed. otherwise we would need a highly specialized set of rules for astral combat, not just instructions to handle it exactly the same as normal combat. astral combat must not be meaningfully different for astral beings than physical combat is for physical beings, otherwise it could not use the same rules, it would need to use different ones; rules on how to handle supersonic punches and body blocks, rules for even perceiving the person who pops out of the wall in front of you at 670 mph, rules for attempting to follow someone or lose them by sudden acceleration, rules for getting lost when you accidentally launch yourself half a mile into the earth and have no ability to sense direction or see any landmarks, etc.

the fact that the rules for astral combat are the same as the rules for physical combat tells us that the intention is for them to be largely similar, which in turn means that you must be about as capable of handling your astral body at 670 mph as you are of handling your physical body at normal speeds.

You violate your own logic. Being able to fly at 670 mph does not grant you special abilities to perceive things in and of itself in the real world. If the rules for astral combat and physical combat are the same, why would you use that as an argument for a rule being different?

Are you laboring under the misimpression that all movement takes place at 670 mph. It doesn't. Astral Projection grants the user the ability to fly at speeds up to 670 mph. If you are worried about crashing into a fellow astral traveler or not being able to see things well as you zip by, then you have a ready solution: slow down!

As an aside, your argument claiming that Palladium would have to include extra rules to deal with the implications borders on the disingenuous. I know that you've been around here long enough to be aware of how Palladium writes their rulebooks!

[Shark_Force]

You violate your own logic. Being able to fly at 670 mph does not grant you special abilities to perceive things in and of itself in the real world. If the rules for astral combat and physical combat are the same, why would you use that as an argument for a rule being different?

Are you laboring under the misimpression that all movement takes place at 670 mph. It doesn't. Astral Projection grants the user the ability to fly at speeds up to 670 mph. If you are worried about crashing into a fellow astral traveler or not being able to see things well as you zip by, then you have a ready solution: slow down!

As an aside, your argument claiming that Palladium would have to include extra rules to deal with the implications borders on the disingenuous. I know that you've been around here long enough to be aware of how Palladium writes their rulebooks!

abilities to inherently fly at 670 mph *do* come with the ability to handle it. vehicles don't, and hey, guess what: they all require special training to be able to handle the speeds involved.

and no, not all combat needs to be at 670 mph... but it is so obviously a colossal advantage that you'd have to be a moron to not use it, so combat typically *will* be at that speed. because why should i settle for regular punches when i can have mach 1 punches? why should i settle for regular dodges when i can supersonic dodge?

and yes, i have been around long enough to know how palladium does things. and that admittedly generally isn't very cleanly. there are frequently giant loopholes, unintended consequences, conflicting rulings, and all manner of other difficulties... but they also like to write new rules. oh man, does palladium ever love to write extra rules and shove them into random obscure places. they love writing rules so much that they'll write new rules for things that already have rules, and the new rules won't even remotely agree with the old ones. sometimes those new rules will even be in the same book (within a few pages of each other even). and yeah, those rules will require you to figure out how you want them to work before you can do anything with them at all... but they're there. somewhere.

[eliakon]

You violate your own logic. Being able to fly at 670 mph does not grant you special abilities to perceive things in and of itself in the real world. If the rules for astral combat and physical combat are the same, why would you use that as an argument for a rule being different?

Are you laboring under the misimpression that all movement takes place at 670 mph. It doesn't. Astral Projection grants the user the ability to fly at speeds up to 670 mph. If you are worried about crashing into a fellow astral traveler or not being able to see things well as you zip by, then you have a ready solution: slow down!

As an aside, your argument claiming that Palladium would have to include extra rules to deal with the implications borders on the disingenuous. I know that you've been around here long enough to be aware of how Palladium writes their rulebooks!

abilities to inherently fly at 670 mph *do* come with the ability to handle it. vehicles don't, and hey, guess what: they all require special training to be able to handle the speeds involved.

and no, not all combat needs to be at 670 mph... but it is so obviously a colossal advantage that you'd have to be a moron to not use it, so combat typically *will* be at that speed. because why should i settle for regular punches when i can have mach 1 punches? why should i settle for regular dodges when i can supersonic dodge?

and yes, i have been around long enough to know how palladium does things. and that admittedly generally isn't very cleanly. there are frequently giant loopholes, unintended consequences, conflicting rulings, and all manner of other difficulties... but they also like to write new rules. oh man, does palladium ever love to write extra rules and shove them into random obscure places. they love writing rules so much that they'll write new rules for things that already have rules, and the new rules won't even remotely agree with the old ones. sometimes those new rules will even be in the same book (within a few pages of each other even). and yeah, those rules will require you to figure out how you want them to work before you can do anything with them at all... but they're there. somewhere.

Actually...
there aren't special rules for high speed combat.
Thus as dreicunan points out your logic fails because the lack of special rules for this doesn't prove anything... because there are no rules for this in any other form of combat, including mecha/fighters/spaceships/whatever

Which basically tells me "this isn't a thing that is considered important" aka "do what ever is best for your particular game and move on"

[Shark_Force]

Actually...
there aren't special rules for high speed combat.
Thus as dreicunan points out your logic fails because the lack of special rules for this doesn't prove anything... because there are no rules for this in any other form of combat, including mecha/fighters/spaceships/whatever

Which basically tells me "this isn't a thing that is considered important" aka "do what ever is best for your particular game and move on"

there are rules for high speed combat in most things that grant high speed. the exception would be vehicle combat, which has special rules in a number of places. there's probably more than one version of vehicle combat rules, actually; like i said, palladium loves making new rules, and doesn't care much whether there are already old rules in place covering various situations.

[dreicunan]

Actually...
there aren't special rules for high speed combat.
Thus as dreicunan points out your logic fails because the lack of special rules for this doesn't prove anything... because there are no rules for this in any other form of combat, including mecha/fighters/spaceships/whatever

Which basically tells me "this isn't a thing that is considered important" aka "do what ever is best for your particular game and move on"

there are rules for high speed combat in most things that grant high speed. the exception would be vehicle combat, which has special rules in a number of places. there's probably more than one version of vehicle combat rules, actually; like i said, palladium loves making new rules, and doesn't care much whether there are already old rules in place covering various situations.

Even if you are correct, it still doesn't follow that astral projection grants powers that it doesn't say that it grants!

[eliakon]

Actually...
there aren't special rules for high speed combat.
Thus as dreicunan points out your logic fails because the lack of special rules for this doesn't prove anything... because there are no rules for this in any other form of combat, including mecha/fighters/spaceships/whatever

Which basically tells me "this isn't a thing that is considered important" aka "do what ever is best for your particular game and move on"

there are rules for high speed combat in most things that grant high speed. the exception would be vehicle combat, which has special rules in a number of places. there's probably more than one version of vehicle combat rules, actually; like i said, palladium loves making new rules, and doesn't care much whether there are already old rules in place covering various situations.

Really?
Then where are these high speed rules? I would be fascinated to read the canon rules on sonic speed combat... which should presumably tell us all about how to handle the interactions of individuals that are both moving 3 miles per melee round (especially how to handle combat and perception)...
I am not talking about "you have xAPM" or stuff like that. But rules that cover what was discussed... you know stuff like:
How to handle hitting someone if they will move from "melee range" to "beyond striking range" in a fraction of a second.
How to handle keeping an eye on someone moving at super sonic speeds
How to adjucate surprise or initiatives
That sort of thing
ESPECIALLY as they relate to astral abilities

Because as far as I am aware of there are not any such rules in any book.
Which would mean that there is nothing to base any assumptions on how this works on other than either
1) assume that all combat works the same regardless of speed
2) make something up

[Sir_Spirit]

Heroes Unlimited notably have rules for high speed.
Duh.

[eliakon]

Heroes Unlimited notably have rules for high speed.
Duh.

Where?
Simply saying "its in one of these thousands of pages someplace" doesn't help.
Especially since your stance appears to be that these rules are inherent to *all* high speed flight... even those forms that do not actually include such rules and are in fact in an entirely different game!

Are these "general rules" or "specific rules that apply to a specific power" or something in between the two?
Where are they to be found so that they can be referenced properly?
Simply asserting that "there are rules somewhere, trust me" does nothing to demonstrate your claim of these rules existing, nor of them being relevant.

[dreicunan]

Heroes Unlimited notably have rules for high speed.
Duh.

They have rules stating that characters that can go 60 mph (spd 88) or higher can do +4 sdc per 20 mph, and they lose half their melee attacks in the firat half of the round to use their super-speed attack. It states that you need 10 ft per 10 mph of speed for the attack. It then incongruously states that you get up to 40 mph from a standing position (which may or may not take half your melee actions, it is a bit unclear). It also has rules for ramming and sticking a limb in front of someone going that fast (all on pages 72-73).

What it doesn't have is any rules dealing with perception or manuverability of high speed characters in general. Specific powers grant things, some of which give exceptions to the rules on pages 72-73 (for example, sonic speed lets you hit full speed - 700 mph - in only 4 seconds, not 7.5 seconds, and defines it as about 1 melee action; this would indicate that it doesn't take half your melee actions to do a full speed strike and get +140 to your damage), but nothing is a general rule. Let me once again note that astral projection does not grant any extra powers beyond flying at the speed given. Generally speaking, powers grant what they grant, not what they don't!

[Sir_Spirit]

Ok, I am going to be blunt, couple of thoughts here:

1) we don't need rules for high speed because astral is the realm of thought. There is no kinetic energy there, no inertia, no momentum.
Any given speed is just an approximation.

2)No, no one on the Night lords side would bother chase an astral surfer. They might follow if they could be discrete about it. But it's not worth the effort really. It's not like they rare astral bane[or really , anything the PC s do] are going to stop their genocide of earth.
They'll get around to destroying the Nightbane eventually. They do have traps they actively set. As they'd like their humanicide to go orderly and not be disrupted by utterly futile resistances and such. But it's not l ike the resistance can stop them, so there isn't a need to chase them. Unless maybe they are a reporter, as that's were most of their resources go, into controlling the news and media. Not fighting the Nightbane. They do hate them, but that doesn't change their focus[controlt he media while they secretly genocide humanity].

[Axelmania]

Which suggests that they simply put up hounds in the real world.
How hard is that?
I mean they have hounds patrolling the real world already, Astral ones would be just as effective, go after threats that are significant and will have all the advantages that the aggressor has.

The reason that Nightbane with these powers are not winning the war, is that they are outnumbered millions to one by foes who have access to the same powers.

One ramification of this, is since all children under 13 can see astral projections, inevitably a lot of them are going to see Hounds who think they don't need to prowl very carefully since adults can't see them...

Of course, being an astral projection, you could probably just "use walls like halls and floors like doors" to keep out of sightlines, but I don't know that normal hounds would be smart enough to use that tactic.

the torturians can move just as fast. just because the game handles things in discrete actions doesn't mean the torturians are sitting there doing nothing while the nightbane is running away. the torturians (provided they intend to spend their next action doing so) are moving along with them.

Here's the problem: being an Astral Projection doesn't let you see through objects, so if you're ever being chased, you can just fly into the ground to escape observation, then pop up somewhere 10 miles away within 1 minute.

astral combat must not be meaningfully different for astral beings than physical combat is for physical beings, otherwise it could not use the same rules, it would need to use different ones; rules on how to handle supersonic punches and body blocks,

HU has those and I can't see why you wouldn't use them when doing astral combat on the physical plane. They wouldn't apply elsewhere since you can't fly at Mach 1 on the Outer/Inner plane or void.

Even if you are correct, it still doesn't follow that astral projection grants powers that it doesn't say that it grants!

Damage bonuses aren't powers. Borgs have higher Spd in HU for example, which makes them harder to hit and inflict more damage when running, but that's just part of the general rules-set. When running Astral Projection in HU, those rules should probably also apply. I don't remember Nightbane having those rules for Spd in combat though, so whether to apply them depends on how GM interprets Megaversal interchangeability of rules. Nightbane doesn't have vehicle combat rules as complex as HU2 either but I would feel fine applying them in Nightbane.

1) we don't need rules for high speed because astral is the realm of thought. There is no kinetic energy there, no inertia, no momentum.

If you were right then PS wouldn't matter either.

[Shark_Force]

the problem with hiding in the ground is that then *you* can't see, and you have nothing to give a sense of direction... not even "up", because there is no gravity. it would be like swimming, where you can easily lose all sense of direction, except worse because not only would it be absolutely pitch black (and there isn't any such thing as a flashlight to let you see anything at all, so zero landmarks) and rather than having very little sense of gravity you would have none. which makes it very easy to get lost... and getting lost in the astral is really not good news.

[dreicunan]

Even if you are correct, it still doesn't follow that astral projection grants powers that it doesn't say that it grants!

Damage bonuses aren't powers. Borgs have higher Spd in HU for example, which makes them harder to hit and inflict more damage when running, but that's just part of the general rules-set. When running Astral Projection in HU, those rules should probably also apply. I don't remember Nightbane having those rules for Spd in combat though, so whether to apply them depends on how GM interprets Megaversal interchangeability of rules. Nightbane doesn't have vehicle combat rules as complex as HU2 either but I would feel fine applying them in Nightbane.

Seeing as how I never claimed that damage bonuses are powers, why are you quoting me as though I did?

[Axelmania]

the problem with hiding in the ground is that then *you* can't see, and you have nothing to give a sense of direction... not even "up", because there is no gravity. it would be like swimming, where you can easily lose all sense of direction, except worse because not only would it be absolutely pitch black (and there isn't any such thing as a flashlight to let you see anything at all, so zero landmarks) and rather than having very little sense of gravity you would have none. which makes it very easy to get lost... and getting lost in the astral is really not good news.

Is there no sensitive psi you could use to help here?

Even if you are correct, it still doesn't follow that astral projection grants powers that it doesn't say that it grants!

Damage bonuses aren't powers. Borgs have higher Spd in HU for example, which makes them harder to hit and inflict more damage when running, but that's just part of the general rules-set. When running Astral Projection in HU, those rules should probably also apply. I don't remember Nightbane having those rules for Spd in combat though, so whether to apply them depends on how GM interprets Megaversal interchangeability of rules. Nightbane doesn't have vehicle combat rules as complex as HU2 either but I would feel fine applying them in Nightbane.

Seeing as how I never claimed that damage bonuses are powers, why are you quoting me as though I did?

You were implying they were, because eliakon and Shark Force were discussing the damage bonuses from speed.

[Shark_Force]

the problem with hiding in the ground is that then *you* can't see, and you have nothing to give a sense of direction... not even "up", because there is no gravity. it would be like swimming, where you can easily lose all sense of direction, except worse because not only would it be absolutely pitch black (and there isn't any such thing as a flashlight to let you see anything at all, so zero landmarks) and rather than having very little sense of gravity you would have none. which makes it very easy to get lost... and getting lost in the astral is really not good news.

Is there no sensitive psi you could use to help here?

(note: regarding the question of sensitive psionics as it relates specifically to nightbane, which the thread is discussing, nightbane can't have psionics so the answer is definitely no for them in particular... but, since the question has relevance to any number of other beings that can either astrally project or transfer their body to the astral in addition to potentially having other psychic powers, it is relevant, just not to the original question asked in the thread regarding nightbane with the astral self talent in particular).

nothing comes to mind at the moment that would help navigate. if you've got something you would plan on using, feel free to speak up.

bear in mind though, the argument is that you have no special ability to react to or perceive during your increased movement... so you won't be able to control how far in you go very effectively, and at that speed you could go in quite a ways, so keep range limitations in mind.

[Axelmania]

There are some magic spells with the same name as certain sensitive psi (like See Aura) so I guess I propose contemplating the Nightbane Mystic. Or perhaps if there are any useful Talents?

[dreicunan]

the problem with hiding in the ground is that then *you* can't see, and you have nothing to give a sense of direction... not even "up", because there is no gravity. it would be like swimming, where you can easily lose all sense of direction, except worse because not only would it be absolutely pitch black (and there isn't any such thing as a flashlight to let you see anything at all, so zero landmarks) and rather than having very little sense of gravity you would have none. which makes it very easy to get lost... and getting lost in the astral is really not good news.

Is there no sensitive psi you could use to help here?

Even if you are correct, it still doesn't follow that astral projection grants powers that it doesn't say that it grants!

Damage bonuses aren't powers. Borgs have higher Spd in HU for example, which makes them harder to hit and inflict more damage when running, but that's just part of the general rules-set. When running Astral Projection in HU, those rules should probably also apply. I don't remember Nightbane having those rules for Spd in combat though, so whether to apply them depends on how GM interprets Megaversal interchangeability of rules. Nightbane doesn't have vehicle combat rules as complex as HU2 either but I would feel fine applying them in Nightbane.

Seeing as how I never claimed that damage bonuses are powers, why are you quoting me as though I did?

You were implying they were, because eliakon and Shark Force were discussing the damage bonuses from speed.

No, I wasn't implying that in any way shape or form, as is made clear by reading the full post from which you took that quote. However, thank you for this insight into how you process things.

[Axelmania]

"full post" is a nice vague escape from being specific about what purportedly gives some other context to it

[eliakon]

"full post" is a nice vague escape from being specific about what purportedly gives some other context to it

No there is nothing vague about it at all
the entire full post though is here

Actually...
there aren't special rules for high speed combat.
Thus as dreicunan points out your logic fails because the lack of special rules for this doesn't prove anything... because there are no rules for this in any other form of combat, including mecha/fighters/spaceships/whatever

Which basically tells me "this isn't a thing that is considered important" aka "do what ever is best for your particular game and move on"

there are rules for high speed combat in most things that grant high speed. the exception would be vehicle combat, which has special rules in a number of places. there's probably more than one version of vehicle combat rules, actually; like i said, palladium loves making new rules, and doesn't care much whether there are already old rules in place covering various situations.

Even if you are correct, it still doesn't follow that astral projection grants powers that it doesn't say that it grants!

Note the complete lack of discussion about damage bonuses for speed?
Note how the only thing he said was that astral projection doesn't grant powers that it doesn't grant.

It was you, in your collating of multiple different peoples comments that made the mistake and conflated what he said with what others said.
It isn't his fault at all as he has been clear and concise the entire time.

[Axelmania]

What "powers that it doesn't say that it grants" do you think dreicunan was referring to? What else was Shark_Force talking about?

[dreicunan]

What "powers that it doesn't say that it grants" do you think dreicunan was referring to? What else was Shark_Force talking about?

Axel, come on. Read the thread. Shark_Force was claiming that the power granted the ability to perceive things and maneuver. I'm not taking the time to quote that much of the thread when you can just scroll up, especially since Shark_Force made these arguments in response to some of your posts!

[Axelmania]

What "powers that it doesn't say that it grants" do you think dreicunan was referring to? What else was Shark_Force talking about?

Axel, come on. Read the thread. Shark_Force was claiming that the power granted the ability to perceive things and maneuver. I'm not taking the time to quote that much of the thread when you can just scroll up, especially since Shark_Force made these arguments in response to some of your posts!

I have read the thread. I'm happy to recap what I based my reply on:

eli there aren't special rules for high speed combat.
Shark there are rules for high speed combat in most things that grant high speed.
Spirit Heroes Unlimited notably have rules for high speed.
drei They have rules stating that characters that can go 60 mph (spd 88) or higher can do +4 sdc per 20 mph .. What it doesn't have is any rules dealing with perception or manuverability of high speed characters in general.
me Damage bonuses aren't powers

What I meant to convey is that I believe that Shark was referring to damage bonuses from the outset. That stuff about perception/maneuvering seems added in afterwards.

All SF has said earlier was abilities to inherently fly at 670 mph *do* come with the ability to handle it which is pretty vague. I think the implication is that people are all able to handle their top speeds at roughly the same competency unless we're told otherwise.

If not, then someone with Spd 20 would be twice as disoriented as someone as Spd 10 when moving at their top speed. There is no "special power" implied here, just the general idea that higher Spd attributes come with the ability to function at that speed. Skills like running would be a lot less attractive if this weren't true.

If you think otherwise, then feel free to show us where in the rules it talks about higher-Spd guys needing 'special powers' to avoid falling down or running into walls or getting tunnel vision while running at their top spd, compared to a slower guy running at their top speed.

He refers to "mach 1 punches" which is clearly hinting at the damage bonus.

As far as "supersonic dodge", the only time I've seen Spd give a dodge bonus is in TMNT, so maybe SF had that in mind, not sure.

Probably instead he is referring to the penalty to strike targets which are traveling at high speed, which functions a lot like a dodge bonus since lowering the strike roll means you don't have to have a dodge roll as high to beat it.

[dreicunan]

What "powers that it doesn't say that it grants" do you think dreicunan was referring to? What else was Shark_Force talking about?

Axel, come on. Read the thread. Shark_Force was claiming that the power granted the ability to perceive things and maneuver. I'm not taking the time to quote that much of the thread when you can just scroll up, especially since Shark_Force made these arguments in response to some of your posts!

I have read the thread. I'm happy to recap what I based my reply on:

eli there aren't special rules for high speed combat.
Shark there are rules for high speed combat in most things that grant high speed.
Spirit Heroes Unlimited notably have rules for high speed.
drei They have rules stating that characters that can go 60 mph (spd 88) or higher can do +4 sdc per 20 mph .. What it doesn't have is any rules dealing with perception or manuverability of high speed characters in general.
me Damage bonuses aren't powers

What I meant to convey is that I believe that Shark was referring to damage bonuses from the outset. That stuff about perception/maneuvering seems added in afterwards.

All SF has said earlier was abilities to inherently fly at 670 mph *do* come with the ability to handle it which is pretty vague. I think the implication is that people are all able to handle their top speeds at roughly the same competency unless we're told otherwise.

If not, then someone with Spd 20 would be twice as disoriented as someone as Spd 10 when moving at their top speed. There is no "special power" implied here, just the general idea that higher Spd attributes come with the ability to function at that speed. Skills like running would be a lot less attractive if this weren't true.

If you think otherwise, then feel free to show us where in the rules it talks about higher-Spd guys needing 'special powers' to avoid falling down or running into walls or getting tunnel vision while running at their top spd, compared to a slower guy running at their top speed.

He refers to "mach 1 punches" which is clearly hinting at the damage bonus.

As far as "supersonic dodge", the only time I've seen Spd give a dodge bonus is in TMNT, so maybe SF had that in mind, not sure.

Probably instead he is referring to the penalty to strike targets which are traveling at high speed, which functions a lot like a dodge bonus since lowering the strike roll means you don't have to have a dodge roll as high to beat it.

This really is hilarious. The discussion didn't start with Eli. It started with YOUR POST:

Let's assume Torturians are dealing with a bunch of inexperienced bad-at-combat Nightbane with Astral Self. Nightbane can't win, but they can flee...

At 670mph it should be very easy to fly out of eyeline and hide in the middle of some wall or floor so the Torturian doesn't know where to fly to get in range to attack you.

They're basically going to be incompetent unless Astral Hounds are sent into the real world, and I'm not even sure they could sniff quickly enough to get a bead on an Astral Self before it flies out of sniffing range.

Then Shark Force said:

the torturians can move just as fast. just because the game handles things in discrete actions doesn't mean the torturians are sitting there doing nothing while the nightbane is running away. the torturians (provided they intend to spend their next action doing so) are moving along with them.

Then I said:

At those speeds, it might be appropriate to have them both roll initiative. If the one attempting to escape wins, they manage to fly off quickly enough that the one wishing to follow has only a vague idea of the direction. If the one escaping loses, then their pursuer keeps up with them.

Then Shark Force said:

if they didn't have some innate ability to handle those kinds of speeds, there would need to be a table where every single action you take within a few hundred feet of the earth's surface has you roll on it, and if you get unlucky you wind up buried somewhere in the earth and who knows what direction is what because there's no gravity and no landmarks (you can't even see your silver cord, the ground would be in the way).

the simple fact that the rules don't tell you about how hard it is to handle nape of the earth movement at mach speed in the astral means that astral beings *must* be exceptionally adept at dealing with the implications of fast movement, otherwise we wouldn't be able to use the same basic rules as in the regular physical world; the astral combat rules would need to be some sort of highly specialized system where all participants just kinda run around trying to find each other and react in time to their targets zipping past at relative velocities of up to mach 2, while trying to analyze whether that thing zipping past is your target or some other astral being.

if you couldn't instantly and intuitively react to sudden movement, you'd be equally unable to react to a sudden change in elevation, or to make a turn around a corner.

Then I said:

The fact that the rules don't say anything means that the rules don't say anything, not that astral beings have a special ability to perceive the world while traveling at high speed. As you said, the same basic rules apply. So, if you have two people in the real world capable of flying at 670 mph (not including the sonic flight super power), would you also suddenly grant them the ability to perceive things perfectly? The rules don't. Astral projection states what the characters can do, and it does not grant improved perception. The fact that they can fly through everything obviates the need for being able to process what they see more quickly than normal. There is no real danger of smacking into anything apart from another astral traveler. If you are worried about that, slow down!

Then Shark Force said:

giving the ability to travel at 670 mph implies a number of other things that *must* inherently go with it. if they didn't, you wouldn't be able to fly at 670 mph. again, given that it uses perfectly bog-standard hand-to-hand combat rules with no modifications, those things that go along with the ability must inherently include the ability to cope with traveling at that speed. otherwise we would need a highly specialized set of rules for astral combat, not just instructions to handle it exactly the same as normal combat. astral combat must not be meaningfully different for astral beings than physical combat is for physical beings, otherwise it could not use the same rules, it would need to use different ones; rules on how to handle supersonic punches and body blocks, rules for even perceiving the person who pops out of the wall in front of you at 670 mph, rules for attempting to follow someone or lose them by sudden acceleration, rules for getting lost when you accidentally launch yourself half a mile into the earth and have no ability to sense direction or see any landmarks, etc.

the fact that the rules for astral combat are the same as the rules for physical combat tells us that the intention is for them to be largely similar, which in turn means that you must be about as capable of handling your astral body at 670 mph as you are of handling your physical body at normal speeds.

Me again:

You violate your own logic. Being able to fly at 670 mph does not grant you special abilities to perceive things in and of itself in the real world. If the rules for astral combat and physical combat are the same, why would you use that as an argument for a rule being different?

Are you laboring under the misimpression that all movement takes place at 670 mph. It doesn't. Astral Projection grants the user the ability to fly at speeds up to 670 mph. If you are worried about crashing into a fellow astral traveler or not being able to see things well as you zip by, then you have a ready solution: slow down!

As an aside, your argument claiming that Palladium would have to include extra rules to deal with the implications borders on the disingenuous. I know that you've been around here long enough to be aware of how Palladium writes their rulebooks!

Shark again:

abilities to inherently fly at 670 mph *do* come with the ability to handle it. vehicles don't, and hey, guess what: they all require special training to be able to handle the speeds involved.

and no, not all combat needs to be at 670 mph... but it is so obviously a colossal advantage that you'd have to be a moron to not use it, so combat typically *will* be at that speed. because why should i settle for regular punches when i can have mach 1 punches? why should i settle for regular dodges when i can supersonic dodge?

and yes, i have been around long enough to know how palladium does things. and that admittedly generally isn't very cleanly. there are frequently giant loopholes, unintended consequences, conflicting rulings, and all manner of other difficulties... but they also like to write new rules. oh man, does palladium ever love to write extra rules and shove them into random obscure places. they love writing rules so much that they'll write new rules for things that already have rules, and the new rules won't even remotely agree with the old ones. sometimes those new rules will even be in the same book (within a few pages of each other even). and yeah, those rules will require you to figure out how you want them to work before you can do anything with them at all... but they're there. somewhere.

Eliakon (this is where you finally start your summary!):

Actually...
there aren't special rules for high speed combat.
Thus as dreicunan points out your logic fails because the lack of special rules for this doesn't prove anything... because there are no rules for this in any other form of combat, including mecha/fighters/spaceships/whatever

Which basically tells me "this isn't a thing that is considered important" aka "do what ever is best for your particular game and move on"

Shark (you included this one):

there are rules for high speed combat in most things that grant high speed. the exception would be vehicle combat, which has special rules in a number of places. there's probably more than one version of vehicle combat rules, actually; like i said, palladium loves making new rules, and doesn't care much whether there are already old rules in place covering various situations.

Me (which you skipped):

Even if you are correct, it still doesn't follow that astral projection grants powers that it doesn't say that it grants!

Eli (also skipped):

Really?
Then where are these high speed rules? I would be fascinated to read the canon rules on sonic speed combat... which should presumably tell us all about how to handle the interactions of individuals that are both moving 3 miles per melee round (especially how to handle combat and perception)...
I am not talking about "you have xAPM" or stuff like that. But rules that cover what was discussed... you know stuff like:
How to handle hitting someone if they will move from "melee range" to "beyond striking range" in a fraction of a second.
How to handle keeping an eye on someone moving at super sonic speeds
How to adjucate surprise or initiatives
That sort of thing
ESPECIALLY as they relate to astral abilities

Because as far as I am aware of there are not any such rules in any book.
Which would mean that there is nothing to base any assumptions on how this works on other than either
1) assume that all combat works the same regardless of speed
2) make something up

Sir Spirit (you included this one):

Heroes Unlimited notably have rules for high speed.
Duh.

Then Eli posted asking for where these rules were.
After that, I posted, in response to Sir Spirit:

They have rules stating that characters that can go 60 mph (spd 88) or higher can do +4 sdc per 20 mph, and they lose half their melee attacks in the firat half of the round to use their super-speed attack. It states that you need 10 ft per 10 mph of speed for the attack. It then incongruously states that you get up to 40 mph from a standing position (which may or may not take half your melee actions, it is a bit unclear). It also has rules for ramming and sticking a limb in front of someone going that fast (all on pages 72-73).

What it doesn't have is any rules dealing with perception or manuverability of high speed characters in general. Specific powers grant things, some of which give exceptions to the rules on pages 72-73 (for example, sonic speed lets you hit full speed - 700 mph - in only 4 seconds, not 7.5 seconds, and defines it as about 1 melee action; this would indicate that it doesn't take half your melee actions to do a full speed strike and get +140 to your damage), but nothing is a general rule. Let me once again note that astral projection does not grant any extra powers beyond flying at the speed given. Generally speaking, powers grant what they grant, not what they don't!

Then Spirit had a post stating more positions. Then you made a post in which you included this:

Even if you are correct, it still doesn't follow that astral projection grants powers that it doesn't say that it grants!

Damage bonuses aren't powers. Borgs have higher Spd in HU for example, which makes them harder to hit and inflict more damage when running, but that's just part of the general rules-set. When running Astral Projection in HU, those rules should probably also apply. I don't remember Nightbane having those rules for Spd in combat though, so whether to apply them depends on how GM interprets Megaversal interchangeability of rules. Nightbane doesn't have vehicle combat rules as complex as HU2 either but I would feel fine applying them in Nightbane.

At which point I asked you why you had quoted me claiming that damage bonuses aren't powers, you later claimed I implied it, and I (and Eliakon) demonstrated that I hadn't.


Now, note how in your most recent post, you claimed:

What I meant to convey is that I believe that Shark was referring to damage bonuses from the outset. That stuff about perception/maneuvering seems added in afterwards.

So, given that the first mention of damage bonuses was well after we started talking about perception and maneuvering, how on earth does it seem to you that "that stuff" was "added in afterwards"?

I don't have to demonstrate that the rules in general deal with this issue. All I have to do is note that the Astral Projection power doesn't grant you improved perception while there exist powers and abilities that grant increased speed and also grant improved perception or ability to perceive things, like Sonic Speed, Sonic Flight, and Rocket Fists. Abilities grant what they grant, not what they don't. For those other judgement calls? That is why the game has a GM.

[Axelmania]

My initial proposal that you could lose Torturians is based on an inability to see through physical matter (even though you can move through it) not that they couldn't visually track you out in the open.

The question is what I thought shark meant by "rules for high speed combat in most things that grant high speed" at that particular moment, not what you were discussing prior to that.

I still can't see where you've clarified what you meant by "it still doesn't follow that astral projection grants powers".

What "powers" were you describing? Where did shark talk about AP granting powers?

All I have to do is note that the Astral Projection power doesn't grant you improved perception

You need to go a step further: show us where you need improved perception to process high speed movement when you are fast yourself.

If you're flying 670mph after someone going 670mph there's no relative movement at all.

[dreicunan]

My initial proposal that you could lose Torturians is based on an inability to see through physical matter (even though you can move through it) not that they couldn't visually track you out in the open.

The question is what I thought shark meant by "rules for high speed combat in most things that grant high speed" at that particular moment, not what you were discussing prior to that.

Why, on earth, would you divorce the statement from its context?

I still can't see where you've clarified what you meant by "it still doesn't follow that astral projection grants powers".

What "powers" were you describing? Where did shark talk about AP granting powers?

Well, given that you've apparently ignored a fair amount of the context for the conversation, I guess you might have been confused about that. The "powers" would be the assertions from Shark Force, such as: "the simple fact that the rules don't tell you about how hard it is to handle nape of the earth movement at mach speed in the astral means that astral beings *must* be exceptionally adept at dealing with the implications of fast movement, otherwise we wouldn't be able to use the same basic rules as in the regular physical world...." The simple fact of the matter is that astral projection DOESN'T have to make you exceptionally adept at dealing with the implications of fast movement. It only does what it says it does. Just like how Rocket Fists grants a character the ability to judge distance accurately within 1d4 feet, judge his own speed exactly, judge the speed of others within 1d6 mph, and to see like a hawk, while Mega-Wings does not! That means that the person with Mega-Wings doesn't have any special advantage in their ability to see things, despite being able to fly at high speeds.

All I have to do is note that the Astral Projection power doesn't grant you improved perception

You need to go a step further: show us where you need improved perception to process high speed movement when you are fast yourself.

If you're flying 670mph after someone going 670mph there's no relative movement at all.

There's no relative movement so long as the vector remains exactly the same. The slightest shift in direction and their sure is!

You don't need improved perception to process high speed movement whether you are fast or slow. However, if you don't have improved perception to process high speed movement, then it follows that you process it normally, and thus you wouldn't be able to automatically see where someone is going if they pull off a good stunt and you don't react in time to keep them in your field of vision. THAT was the crux of the entire discussion.

[Axelmania]

Dreic, I didn't, the context was shark's comment. I believe you took it out of context, going on about "powers" when he meant the rules for high speed damage bonuses.

astral projection DOESN'T have to make you exceptionally adept at dealing with the implications of fast movement.

Nor does getting +16 to your Spd from taking the Running skill, or being born with Spd 30.

But... I think the burden is on you to establish if anyone is disoriented by high speeds in Palladium, and by how much.

[dreicunan]

Dreic, I didn't, the context was shark's comment. I believe you took it out of context, going on about "powers" when he meant the rules for high speed damage bonuses.

astral projection DOESN'T have to make you exceptionally adept at dealing with the implications of fast movement.

Nor does getting +16 to your Spd from taking the Running skill, or being born with Spd 30.

But... I think the burden is on you to establish if anyone is disoriented by high speeds in Palladium, and by how much.

First, it would be "Drei" if you are going to shorten the name. Second, it is ludicrous to suggest that I elwas the one who took it out of context. He clearly was not talking about damage bonuses when he was suggesting that a Torturian would automatically keep pace with you if you tried to shoot off while in astral form. You KNOW this because you were part of the start of the conversation. That said, we've disputed enough things pn this forum that I'm utterly unsurprised that you've chosen to double down on an already disproven position of yours rather than acknowledge the error.

I didn't argue that one was disoriented by high speeds (though one need only reference reality to know that moving at high speeds does make it more difficult to notice certain things, especially in peripheral vision). I argued that being granted the ability to move at a speed doesn't make you exceptionally adept at dealing with the implications of high speeds. Once again, you KNOW this, because you quoted the text! I clarified it quite thoroughly in my previous post, where I spelled out:

You don't need improved perception to process high speed movement whether you are fast or slow. However, if you don't have improved perception to process high speed movement, then it follows that you process it normally, and thus you wouldn't be able to automatically see where someone is going if they pull off a good stunt and you don't react in time to keep them in your field of vision.

I also demonstrated that there are powers which grant increased speed which also do clearly grant improved powers of perception. Thus, I have provided specific evidence for my position, as well as the logical principal that powers or abilities (or rules in general) grant what they say that they grant, not what they don't.