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 Post subject: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:08 am
  

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Disclaimer: I know they are not the same.

So, if I wanted to "combine" them could I just sort of have a sort of three tiered, but concurrent settings?
1. Earth stuff (Macross/Robotech, Southern Cross, Invid Invasion, Return of the Masters, Macross II)
2. Sentinels (Sentinels, Shadow Chronicles)
3. Space Stuff (Immigrant Fleets launched and subsequently all of the Macross series...)

This would allow for all of the source materials to be "used" without having too much difficulty?

My goal would be to have all the stuff happen in the same universe.

Doable, or stupid? What issues would I have?

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:01 pm
  

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Issue wise you'd have to look at the Timeline and may have to drop certain properties or alter them to make them work.

Macross 2 would not work, its a completely separate timeline and as the SDF-1 is still present, but destroyed in Ep36 (and buried in the mounds). So you'd have to really work on this issue.

Macross Plus also runs into timeline issues in RT since events return to Earth (during Invid Occupation) and again has the SDF-1 involved (see Mac2 above).

Other Macross Properties, I don't have a clue on and couldn't tell you if there are any potential issues. Though I suspect "technology level" might come up in them.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:48 pm
  

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slade the sniper wrote:
My goal would be to have all the stuff happen in the same universe.

Doable, or stupid?

Outside of their shared animation, the two (three) settings in question are largely incompatible.



slade the sniper wrote:
What issues would I have?

IMO, the biggest issue you would have is that some of the technologies available in the Macross universe completely undercut several key plot points in the main (animated) Robotech continuity.

Having the Macross universe's thermonuclear reaction overtechnology in the Robotech setting would invalidate Robotech's entire plot. Protoculture is a source of neverending conflict in the Robotech universe because there's no viable alternative energy source that can do what protoculture does... at least, as far as everyone who isn't a Haydonite knows. Even having an alternative is a prospect that undermines the Masters Saga, New Generation, and Shadow Saga plots. Having an alternative power technology that outclasses protoculture with NONE of the drawbacks would be a sucker punch that would kill Robotech's side of the story stone dead. Not to mention all Macross universe mecha would be utterly invisible to the Invid as they don't use Protoculture, and would be inoffensive to the Haydonites for the same reason.

The prevalence of stealth technology in Macross would be another problem, specifically for the New Generation and Shadow Saga. VFs in Macross have been using both passive and active stealth technologies from the get-go, and the countermeasures against active and passive stealth have also been present for a similarly long time. The introduction of radar stealth in 2043 in Robotech was a huge coup for T.R. Edwards and Ghost squadron, enabling them to basically spank the UEEF's best with utter impunity. Being invisible to radar left the UEEF unable to defend itself against Ghost squadron, their missiles couldn't lock on, they had to aim their guns manually, etc. Macross's VFs would have no trouble in taking a shadow fighter to pieces, as the standard guidance package on missiles uses at least two, more commonly three, guidance technologies including optical seekers.

You'd also have a lot of issues with conflicting histories, characters being alive in one version and dead in the other, or having radically different postwar roles that are mutually incompatible.

For instance, in the Macross universe humanity is an engineered species that was created by the same alien race (the Protoculture) who created the Zentradi. In Robotech, the near-identical genetics are chalked up to coincidence. The ancient Protoculture in Macross is extinct, having destroyed itself first with a civil war and then with a war against some of its creations gone rogue. The Robotech Masters are still around in Robotech, but are nowhere near as advanced as the "sufficiently advanced" Protoculture whose technology borders on magic.

You'd, of course, have some issues stemming from the differences between how the original Macross series ended and Robotech's Macross Saga ended:
  • Macross ends in 2012, Robotech's Macross Saga in 2014.
  • The SDF-1 and SDF-2 are destroyed in Robotech, and Macross City is later abandoned. In Macross, the SDF-1 is only damaged and repairs take less than nine months, the SDF-2 is launched in 2012 as the first long distance emigrant ship, and Macross City is still the capital of Earth and the New UN Gov't decades later.
  • The SDF-1's entire bridge crew, except Lisa, dies in Robotech. None of them die in Macross. Global and Kim in particular remain quite influential, with Global retiring and going into government and Kim becoming a general and commander of Earth's orbital defenses.
  • Robotech's Rick and Lisa are in charge of all military and diplomatic functions basically from 2022 on in Robotech. In Macross, their counterparts Hikaru and Misa vanished in 2016 and haven't been heard from since.
  • Max and Miriya are background characters on the SDF-3 in Robotech. They collectively have their own emigrant fleet of over 1 million people in Macross.
  • Breetai in Robotech is one of Rick's subordinates. In Macross, he's the commander in chief of the New UN Forces starting in 2016. Exedore in RT is an advisor along on the SDF-3's mission and is killed in 2044. Exsedol in Macross is still very much alive in 2045, and is Max's advisor.
  • Robotechs UEG never quite gets around to space colonization. Their first generation of colony ships are mothballed as insufficiently defensible and are only built after the second Robotech War (2029-2030). Their second gen colony ships are only just coming off the line in 2044, and are destroyed before they can ever be used. In Macross, humanity has its first extrasolar colony established in 2013, and by 2027 they've started colonizing planets on the far side of the galaxy (e.g. Windermere IV, discovered by SDF-5 Megaroad-04 in 2027.) By 2042 they have over 155 colony fleets launched.
  • In Robotech, the SDF-2's mission was a preemptive strike on the home world of the Robotech Masters. In Macross, it was originally build as a 2nd Macross-class ship for planetary defense, but was converted into the first long-range emigrant ship.
  • You'd have a lot of SDF-related problems. The SDF- designation was used in Macross for the Megaroad-class ships, and a variant thereof was used for the mass production Macross-class ships... so in addition to having up to SDF-31 and SDFN-12 kicking around from the Macross side, you'd also have conflicts like Robotech's SDF-3 Pioneer having the same designation as SDF-3 Megaroad-02 and SDFN-3 (name unknown).
  • You'd also have some problems with conflicting designations. Macross's setting has its own VF-6, where in Robotech the VF/A-6 is the Alpha fighter. It also becomes an issue with 9, VF-9 being a light atmospheric fighter in [i]Macross and the Beta fighter-bomber in Robotech.

I could go on, but you get the idea.



slade the sniper wrote:
So, if I wanted to "combine" them could I just sort of have a sort of three tiered, but concurrent settings?
1. Earth stuff (Macross/Robotech, Southern Cross, Invid Invasion, Return of the Masters, Macross II)

Macross II exists as a parallel world story from the rest of Macross, so that'd complicate matters a LOT... you'd also run into complications as a result of some of the above-listed items like Macross City being abandoned and buried in Robotech but a functioning planetary and galactic capital in Macross's setting or the Zentradi's creators having to simultaneously be alive and extinct, and Earth in the 2040s being simultaneously a barren crater-pocked radioactive wasteland with the best technology in the galaxy and a verdant world repressed by the Invid until it reached a 19th century tech level in places.


slade the sniper wrote:
2. Sentinels (Sentinels, Shadow Chronicles)

You'd end up with a pretty significant chronological problem, as these take place concurrently (in terms of year) with major events in the Macross universes... Hikaru/Rick and Misa/Lisa being simultaneously vanished and leading a massive military expedition, Max and Milia/Miriya being special forces pilots thwarting an extremely well-equipped Zentradi terrorist group and being stranded out in the arse end of nowhere on the SDF-3, the adoption of two different main fighters which have exponentially different levels of capability (Macross's VF-19 and Robotech's VF/A-6X), etc.



slade the sniper wrote:
3. Space Stuff (Immigrant Fleets launched and subsequently all of the Macross series...)

Would run afoul of the non-existence of extrasolar colonization in Robotech (with exactly ONE civilian in space with the UEEF and no colony ships c.2044) at the same point in time in Macross where over 155 emigrant fleets have been launched, some with populations as huge as 10 million. Several of those individual fleets dwarf the entire UEEF in terms of number of ships. (Conservative estimates of the fleet in RTSC put it at just shy of 400, with generous estimates around twice that. Macross Valiant's escort contingent was over 900 ships. A medium-sized fleet is almost 200, and there are dozens of those.)



slade the sniper wrote:
This would allow for all of the source materials to be "used" without having too much difficulty?

If you're devoted to trying to make it work, it sounds like a good way to give yourself a migraine.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:06 pm
  

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I think you're assuming too much exact translation. In order for something like this to work, you'd need to be a bit more flexible, essentially rewriting the various Macross sequels (and prequel) in much the same way that Robotech's Macross Saga rewrote SDF Macross.


Last edited by dataweaver on Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:24 pm
  

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dataweaver wrote:
I think you're assuming to much exact translation. In order for something like this to work, you'd need to be a bit more flexible, essentially rewriting the various Macross sequels (and prequel) in much the same way that Robotech's Macross Saga rewrote SDF Macross.

You'd have to do a LOT of rewriting to shift some of those problems... especially since quite a few of them are major plot points in Macross or Robotech, and in a few cases could completely undermine the stories of one or the other.

For quite a few titles you'd have to throw out entire plots, major characters, a whole Robotech Saga or two...

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:02 am
  

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the three continuities just don't have enough points of storyline congruity to run them concurrently.. the best you could do is to pick one of them to be your 'core' story continuity, then cherry pick elements from the other two to include. altering details to make them fit.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:18 am
  

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That, or shift the timing. In particular, Macross 7, Macross Frontier, and Macross Delta could have their dates postponed so that they take place after the Shadow Chronicles conclude. Change that and a few of the backstory elements, and it could for together fairly well.

Macross Plus is a bit more troublesome, as the SDF-1 features prominently in the story.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:31 am
  

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:44 am
  

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Seto wrote:
IMO, the biggest issue you would have is that some of the technologies available in the Macross universe completely undercut several key plot points in the main (animated) Robotech continuity.

Re: Thermonuclear reaction overtechnology
This though could be rectoned into RT's PC/Reflex system. Essentially that is what happened with the 3 original shows, their OSM energy source of choice (Overtechnology, HBT, and what ever SDC:SC used) was changed into "reflex" or "protoculture" based technology. And it isn't like RT hasn't been moving to adopt fusion technology anyway.

Then again one could go the other way and simply drop the PC connection aspect in RT as the primary integration factor. Remember that in SDC:SC and GCM the FoL/PC aspect didn't exist, so those conflicts happened anyway. You'd probably still need something for the Haydonites and TSC, and likely modify the Invid PC sensor into TRO powerplant detector (still requiring the "Shadow Tech" to defeat. bit given in its original form the PC sensor detect HBT, which is hydrogen based technology IINM that would still leave Macross TRO vulnerable. Yes Macross might have stealth for conventional sensors, but what about unconventional.).

Though I guess it does depend it depends on what you want it to feel more like: SDF:M or RT and what level of "integration" one wants to engage in to draw in Macross sequels. A much "looser" integration seems the most doable.

Re: timeline
The simplest approach might be to go back to the "Early Return" timeline model RT used in its official media (original prints of the Novels, 1e RPG). This would push the Sentinels into the 2020s and NG/TSC into early 2030s (mid 2030s at the latest). IINM that would handle most of the timeline conflicts as far as dates and such go, Macross Plus would still be an issue along with the SDF-1.

That is unless we make the TRM arc more like its OSM counterpart, and make it's events occur at a colony world. Though an explanation for the Mound-SDF-1 connection would be required. This basic angle might also work for NG also, Invid invade a colony world (with a replica of New York City) instead of Earth.

If Cloning is brought over from Macross into RT to explain population, it could also give one an out for characters lost but used later.

Seto wrote:
The SDF-1's entire bridge crew, except Lisa, dies in Robotech. None of them die in Macross. Global and Kim in particular remain quite influential, with Global retiring and going into government and Kim becoming a general and commander of Earth's orbital defenses.

Actually by the dialogue Lisa might not have been the sole survivor, in Leonard's Ep37 graduation speech he left out one of the bridge bunnies, which leaves open the possibility of a second survivor. I'm not saying one BB did survive in RT, only that dialogue allows for that possibility (I forget which one was stated off hand).

Seto wrote:
Macross II exists as a parallel world story from the rest of Macross, so that'd complicate matters a LOT...

But at the same time Macross II is set in what 2089-9x? IINM that would make it several decades in the future compared to other Macross titles, and well into it fo RT. Which would go along way in allowing some of it's material to "work".


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:16 am
  

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I'd suggest keeping PC-based power supplies, especially since it can be used to tie together some other aspects from later Macross series: I'm thinking of the “Song Energy” or whatever it was called in Macross 7, the gut bugs from Macross Frontier, and the whatever-it-was that Macross Delta used to empower its songstresses.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:37 am
  

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dataweaver wrote:
That, or shift the timing. In particular, Macross 7, Macross Frontier, and Macross Delta could have their dates postponed so that they take place after the Shadow Chronicles conclude. Change that and a few of the backstory elements, and it could for together fairly well.

That wouldn't really address most of the issues I mentioned previously... any series that discusses the history of extrasolar colonization (all three) is going to have huge issues. Same as anything that involves the ancient Protoculture prominently in the plot (all Macross series except Plus).



Jefffar wrote:
Once played in a campaign in which Macross II was very much the sequel of Robotech and the prequel to Rifts.

That was probably made a lot easier by the Palladium Macross II RPG bearing essentially no resemblance to the actual Macross II: Lovers Again OVA and its setting.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Re: Thermonuclear reaction overtechnology
This though could be rectoned into RT's PC/Reflex system.

That would exacerbate the problems, given that several of the Macross series have plot-critical info tied into how some of the tech works... it's less an issue when you're talking 7, but for Frontier and Delta it's a big ugly problem.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Then again one could go the other way and simply drop the PC connection aspect in RT as the primary integration factor.

Considering that's the underlying story aspect that is plot-critical to Robotech's story in general, that takes it into the territory of forgetting the Robotech side entirely and just adding Southern Cross and MOSPEADA to Macross by saying they're events that took place on isolated colony worlds (which was the case in Southern Cross anyway).


ShadowLogan wrote:
You'd probably still need something for the Haydonites and TSC, and likely modify the Invid PC sensor into TRO powerplant detector (still requiring the "Shadow Tech" to defeat.

The problem being that there isn't really a characteristic emission from those for an enemy to detect the way HBT produced in MOSPEADA or protoculture produced in Robotech. The one thing they do produce, emissions-wise, is fold waves... and there are already passive stealth measures in the setting for blocking those in widespread use in the Macross setting (as a countermeasure for cross-dimension radar).


ShadowLogan wrote:
bit given in its original form the PC sensor detect HBT, which is hydrogen based technology IINM that would still leave Macross TRO vulnerable. Yes Macross might have stealth for conventional sensors, but what about unconventional.).

The Inbit sensors were detecting some kind of characteristic emission of HBT fuel cells themselves, not simply "hydrogen power". Anything not using HBT was more or less invisible to them.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Re: timeline
The simplest approach might be to go back to the "Early Return" timeline model RT used in its official media (original prints of the Novels, 1e RPG). This would push the Sentinels into the 2020s and NG/TSC into early 2030s (mid 2030s at the latest). IINM that would handle most of the timeline conflicts as far as dates and such go, Macross Plus would still be an issue along with the SDF-1.

You'd still have a lot of setting-related problems along similar lines to the SDF-1... such as the extinct Zentradi being one of the largest minority populations, having a few thousand more Zentradi main fleets kicking around, the nonexistence of colony efforts and suddenly having dozens of well-established colonized planets (e.g. Eden, which by Macross Plus had already been colonized for long enough that adults were born and raised there), several entire plots that revolve around the Protoculture creating sentient species (a plot thread Robotech abandoned as a coincidental genetic similarity), etc. etc.


ShadowLogan wrote:
That is unless we make the TRM arc more like its OSM counterpart, and make it's events occur at a colony world. Though an explanation for the Mound-SDF-1 connection would be required. This basic angle might also work for NG also, Invid invade a colony world (with a replica of New York City) instead of Earth.

That angle would work, as there is an acknowledged tendency for emigrant ships and so on to replicate architecture from pre-First Space War Earth, nominally for psychological reasons. Hence the replication of real-world locales like San Francisco, Shibuya, and Akihabara in Island-1, and replica landmarks like the Eiffel tower and so on in City-7.


ShadowLogan wrote:
If Cloning is brought over from Macross into RT to explain population, it could also give one an out for characters lost but used later.

Memory duplication like that only works if the original is still alive to be duplicated.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Seto wrote:
Macross II exists as a parallel world story from the rest of Macross, so that'd complicate matters a LOT...

But at the same time Macross II is set in what 2089-9x? IINM that would make it several decades in the future compared to other Macross titles, and well into it fo RT. Which would go along way in allowing some of it's material to "work".

2091-2092. It still has many of the problems described above, particularly ones that relate to the Protoculture, the near-ubiquitous Zentradi, and so on.

Technologically it doesn't mesh with the other Macross sequels, since tech was progressing at a slower pace in that universe, leaving the current-gen VFs in 2091 on par with designs from the 2020s (specifically, about on par with the VF-11).



dataweaver wrote:
I'd suggest keeping PC-based power supplies, especially since it can be used to tie together some other aspects from later Macross series: I'm thinking of the “Song Energy” or whatever it was called in Macross 7, the gut bugs from Macross Frontier, and the whatever-it-was that Macross Delta used to empower its songstresses.

Not really sure how that would work, since protoculture lost its pseudo-mystical aspects in the reboot and is now just a power source. Fold quartz, and the fold bacteria responsible for a good chunk of the plots in Frontier and Delta are operating on their own, rather different mechanics.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:17 pm
  

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Again, I think you're insisting on too much fidelity when combining things. Consider Macross' Protoculture and the fact that SDF:Macross had it while RT:Macross didn't. Same animation, same broad strokes for the story; and when attempting to incorporate later chapters of the Macross franchise into Robotech, that's what would end up happening there, too: the “current events”, as it were, would remain the same; but the lore explaining the how and why would change.

As for Robotech's protoculture: the Flower of Life bit from the Masters Saga is still there, and there's a strong case that the Genesis Pits do what they do through the agency of protoculture; so while it's not the mystical thing that Macek made it out to be, it's still a bit more than “just a fuel source”. And for the purposes of merging later series into Robotech, the differing explanations behind fold quartz and fold bacteria could easily be tied into protoculture.

Frankly, I suspect that this is more a matter of you hating the idea of bringing more Macross into Robotech and looking for reasons not to do it, instead of trying to find ways to make it work.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:04 pm
  

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dataweaver wrote:
Again, I think you're insisting on too much fidelity when combining things. Consider Macross' Protoculture and the fact that SDF:Macross had it while RT:Macross didn't.

No, I'm sticking pretty much exclusively to the major problems... the significant and glaring incompatibilities in continuity, setting, and universal mechanics.

Your example of the ancient Protoculture is a perfect illustration of the kind of thing I'm talking about here. When Super Dimension Fortress Macross was adapted to make Robotech, the rewriters were able to write the Protoculture out of the story because their role in that series was minor and didn't materially impact major plot points or events. You couldn't write them out of the later stories, because who and what they are/were, and what they did has become a major part of the setting and stories of the later shows from Macross II and Macross 7 onwards.

Macross's development has been additive like that on most topics, things that start out as trivial details end up underpinning major plot events and whole stories down the road. Every one of the later Macross titles is like that, hence all of the issues identified in previous posts.


dataweaver wrote:
Frankly, I suspect that this is more a matter of you hating the idea of bringing more Macross into Robotech and looking for reasons not to do it, instead of trying to find ways to make it work.

Putting aside the unnecessary and disruptive ad hominem, I suspect the issue here has much more to do with the common misconception that because these two franchises shared animation from the original series, that they must therefore have remained very similar. The "Robotech is American Macross" view, so to speak.

Also, bear in mind that the OP asked if the various stories could be done concurrently without much difficulty, not whether they could have been rewritten completely into something that resembles neither.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:39 pm
  

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Actually, I've watched Macross Frontier; and while there were some references to the Protoculture from time to time, none of those references struck me as being so profoundly important that the plot hinged on it.

More generally, I agree with your assessment that Robotech: Macross Saga is not “American Macross”, and that just jamming the two together without any adjustments will not work. Which is why I've moved past that part of the argument to looking at what sorts of adjustments would be needed to make it work.

And I don't think the adjustments need to be so drastic that the end result “resembles neither”. For the sake of this thread, I'm taking Robotech as the baseline and looking at how the Macross properties would need to be adjusted to resemble it. The differences between SDF: Macross and RT:Macross give a guideline as to what kinds and degrees of adjustments are acceptable; but so do the differences between SDC:SC and RT:Masters and the differences between Mospeada and RT: New Generation. For the most part, the animation is left alone (though there are some exceptions, such as the airbrushing of the second moon from the SDC:SC animation); the mecha have reasonably similar capabilities (with any differences being “off-screen”); and the stories follow similar paths, broadly speaking.

There two main sticking points that I see, plot-wise, are the central roles played by the Macross in Macross Plus and by the Geniuses/Sterlings in Macross 7. The latter is problematic due largely to Max and Milia's ages, which limits the ability to push the events of (adapted) Macross 7 forward in time. But other than that? I'm not seeing any problems that would be show-stoppers.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 5:13 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
[
Having the Macross universe's thermonuclear reaction overtechnology in the Robotech setting would invalidate Robotech's entire plot. Protoculture is a source of neverending conflict in the Robotech universe because there's no viable alternative energy source that can do what protoculture does... at least, as far as everyone who isn't a Haydonite knows. Even having an alternative is a prospect that undermines the Masters Saga, New Generation, and Shadow Saga plots. .



Sorely tempted to play this for strained laughs....
The agricultural companies get ahold of Protoculture, and snuff any legislation that would encourage adopting advanced efficient fusion. Monsanto and TrueGreen defend 'greentech' over 'suntech'.
That's what might have happened with the Robotech Masters...the Protoculture Addicts took over and never looked back at any complementary technologies that could have replaced FoL as the mainstream power source, fixating instead on the biological aspects of Protoculture.

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Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:26 pm
  

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dataweaver wrote:
Actually, I've watched Macross Frontier; and while there were some references to the Protoculture from time to time, none of those references struck me as being so profoundly important that the plot hinged on it.

Really? The series wasn't exactly subtle about the motivations of several of the key players in the plot revolving around the Protoculture's legacy and finding the means to avoid the New UN Government ending the same way.

Richard Bilra, the Zentradi shipping tycoon whose company owns SMS and financed the Macross Frontier fleet's mission, approached the problem by trying to tackle the main factor that led to the Protoculture's civil war: overexpansion-induced isolation due to fold faults and long travel times. He sent the Frontier fleet into Vajra space on a mission to secure large amounts of fold quartz so he could connect the galaxy with fleets of zero time fold-capable ships.

Grace O'Connor, the xenobiologist and cyberneticist from Macross Galaxy, opted for the more direct solution in her bid to one-up the Protoculture. She tried to achieve the Protoculture's ideal of a galaxy without conflict by connecting everyone's minds to a zero time fold network to enable (read: force) understanding, empathy, and a collective direction for sentient life in the galaxy.

(There is also the aspect that the Vajra are a species the ancient Protoculture both revered and studied extensively, modeling a fair amount of their technology on the Vajra's biotechnology. Also, the series's finale takes place in orbit of, and later on, one of the Protoculture's home worlds that the Vajra had taken to nesting on. The Vajra queen nested inside a giant megastructure version of the Stellar Republic's crest.)



dataweaver wrote:
There two main sticking points that I see, plot-wise, are the central roles played by the Macross in Macross Plus and by the Geniuses/Sterlings in Macross 7. The latter is problematic due largely to Max and Milia's ages, which limits the ability to push the events of (adapted) Macross 7 forward in time. But other than that? I'm not seeing any problems that would be show-stoppers.

As I see it, the "show stoppers" category extends beyond just the visuals... into the necessary backstories of events, and even things like themes and tone.

The ancient Protoculture's importance to the later Macross titles really cannot be overstated. You end up with a fundamental area of incompatibility there, since they were written out of Robotech and the genetic similarity between humans and other species that is fairly important to several stories including the Macross Delta series was chalked up to coincidence rather than design in Robotech.

You also have major issues like the deaths of key individuals and species. Zentradi are said to be extinct c.2042 in Robotech and hybrids were vanishingly rare in human society. They're basically everywhere in the Macross metaseries, even entire emigrant fleets composed of nothing BUT Zentradi are out there (and at least two are fairly important to the plots of their respective stories). Moreover, the New UN Government's having incorporated several other alien cultures into itself doesn't really work with Robotech's xenophobic bent. The UEDF and UEEF brass were depicted as being borderline WH40K levels of xenophobic c.2044, and talking about peaceful coexistence was enough to get you clapped in irons even after the Invid occupation ended.

There's the chronological side to it as well. If you don't start space colonization until after the Haydonite conflict, which you'd have to since all the colony ships got blown up, you've got a hell of a job explaining all these characters who are from colonies... especially when some of them would be born decades before the Haydonite conflict ended. You can't move the stories too far out to compensate, because there are an array of holdover characters, their children, colleagues, etc. who have ties to events with specific given dates that overlap with Robotech's events. Is Earth barren radioactive wasteland, the seat of galactic power covered with ultra high-tech cities, or a verdant paradise that exists under alien occupation with a mid-19th century tech level? If you have to push Macross 7's events farther out to accommodate the Invid invasion, it's implausible that Max and Milia had another kid in their mid-60's. Several characters who died would have to suddenly be alive again, like Exsedol.

Of course, there's the technological side to it too. Was cloning commonplace as in Macross or a nigh unheard-of thing as in Robotech? If you've got OTM fold reactors, protoculture offers literally no advantage... undermining the crux of Robotech's plot. If active stealth has been a thing for decades, why are the Shadow Fighters a surprise? If Zor's battlefortress was so special, how come the humans who don't possess the secrets of robotechnology were able to build ships that perfectly duplicate it and others that make it look like a beat-up Citroen 2CV mere years after their war with the Zentradi ended? The VF-4 figures prominently in a few stories, but it was never produced in the Robotech version of events.


There's just too much there to do a light-handed edit like what was done to both Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA in making Robotech. The two settings have drifted VERY far apart, not just in chronology and story, but in themes and tone. It'd be every bit as jarring as trying to rewrite Starship Troopers into the Star Trek universe. One runs on a heady mix of dystopia and militant xenophobia, and the other is an upbeat, optimistic, let's-all-join-hands-and-sing-rainbow-connection study in "War is bad" anvil-dropping.



taalismn wrote:
Sorely tempted to play this for strained laughs....
The agricultural companies get ahold of Protoculture, and snuff any legislation that would encourage adopting advanced efficient fusion. Monsanto and TrueGreen defend 'greentech' over 'suntech'.
That's what might have happened with the Robotech Masters...the Protoculture Addicts took over and never looked back at any complementary technologies that could have replaced FoL as the mainstream power source, fixating instead on the biological aspects of Protoculture.

That'd explain the Haydonites... hacked off environmentalists trying to manage the transplanted invasive species.

(As a hybrid systems and alt fuels tech specialist, I'm getting a good chuckle out of this one.)

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:01 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
dataweaver wrote:
Actually, I've watched Macross Frontier; and while there were some references to the Protoculture from time to time, none of those references struck me as being so profoundly important that the plot hinged on it.

Really? The series wasn't exactly subtle about the motivations of several of the key players in the plot revolving around the Protoculture's legacy and finding the means to avoid the New UN Government ending the same way.
Remember that we're dealing with an alternate reality here where the Zentran were rewritten from being a galactic empire in their own right to being the Robotech Masters' enforcers. With that kind of rewrite being permitted, the changes related to the Protoculture are no big deal:

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Richard Bilra, the Zentradi shipping tycoon whose company owns SMS and financed the Macross Frontier fleet's mission, approached the problem by trying to tackle the main factor that led to the Protoculture's civil war: overexpansion-induced isolation due to fold faults and long travel times. He sent the Frontier fleet into Vajra space on a mission to secure large amounts of fold quartz so he could connect the galaxy with fleets of zero time fold-capable ships.
You don't need the Protoculture for this; just a realization that this region of space is rich in resources that can allow for zero-time folds accepts the galaxy. That alone would be enough motivation to finance an exploratory mission into Vajra space.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Grace O'Connor, the xenobiologist and cyberneticist from Macross Galaxy, opted for the more direct solution in her bid to one-up the Protoculture. She tried to achieve the Protoculture's ideal of a galaxy without conflict by connecting everyone's minds to a zero time fold network to enable (read: force) understanding, empathy, and a collective direction for sentient life in the galaxy.
Again, you don't need the Protoculture for this; just an understanding of what fold crystals are capable of, and a transhumanism philosophy that sees a galactic have mind as a good thing.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
(There is also the aspect that the Vajra are a species the ancient Protoculture both revered and studied extensively, modeling a fair amount of their technology on the Vajra's biotechnology. Also, the series's finale takes place in orbit of, and later on, one of the Protoculture's home worlds that the Vajra had taken to nesting on. The Vajra queen nested inside a giant megastructure version of the Stellar Republic's crest.)
…all well and good in the Macross universe; but not necessary in the Robotech universe. Although, for Robotech, I could see the Vajra counterparts having ties to the Invid.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
As I see it, the "show stoppers" category extends beyond just the visuals... into the necessary backstories of events, and even things like themes and tone.
Thus my various comments about your standards being too strict.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
The ancient Protoculture's importance to the later Macross titles really cannot be overstated. You end up with a fundamental area of incompatibility there, since they were written out of Robotech and the genetic similarity between humans and other species that is fairly important to several stories including the Macross Delta series was chalked up to coincidence rather than design in Robotech.
Not so much “coincidence” (which implies that there fundamentally is no explanation for it) as “mystery”: the reason why there's so much generic similarity between humans, Tirolians, and Zentreadi isn't known; but there's a good chance that it's only because the connection between the three groups' origins hasn't been uncovered yet.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
You also have major issues like the deaths of key individuals and species. Zentradi are said to be extinct c.2042 in Robotech and hybrids were vanishingly rare in human society. They're basically everywhere in the Macross metaseries, even entire emigrant fleets composed of nothing BUT Zentradi are out there (and at least two are fairly important to the plots of their respective stories).
Mmm… no. Robotech does not say that the Zentreadi go extinct; it just doesn't deal with them in Earth space after the Macross Saga.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Moreover, the New UN Government's having incorporated several other alien cultures into itself doesn't really work with Robotech's xenophobic bent. The UEDF and UEEF brass were depicted as being borderline WH40K levels of xenophobic c.2044, and talking about peaceful coexistence was enough to get you clapped in irons even after the Invid occupation ended.
…and yet, there are the Sentinels.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
There's the chronological side to it as well. If you don't start space colonization until after the Haydonite conflict, which you'd have to since all the colony ships got blown up, you've got a hell of a job explaining all these characters who are from colonies... especially when some of them would be born decades before the Haydonite conflict ended. You can't move the stories too far out to compensate, because there are an array of holdover characters, their children, colleagues, etc. who have ties to events with specific given dates that overlap with Robotech's events. Is Earth barren radioactive wasteland, the seat of galactic power covered with ultra high-tech cities, or a verdant paradise that exists under alien occupation with a mid-19th century tech level? If you have to push Macross 7's events farther out to accommodate the Invid invasion, it's implausible that Max and Milia had another kid in their mid-60's. Several characters who died would have to suddenly be alive again, like Exsedol.
You're repeating yourself; you said all of this in an earlier post (which I didn't respond to individually because I'm usually at work and using my cell phone to respond). I've already agreed, in the quote you're responding to, that the Jenius family is problematic; I'm not sure why you feel the need to repeat that part. That said, it's entirely possible that the resolution of the Shadow Chronicles story could resolve some of these issues: we don't know what happened to the Pioneer. If anything like Robotech III: Odyssey is involved (where the SDF-3's misfold resulted in time travel into the distant past), a lot of the Jenius family issues could easily be explained.

I'll also grant that Exsedol/Exedore might be problematic; though I haven't watched Macross 7, so I can't comment on how significant of a role he plays — and given your (IMHO) overly strict standards, I'm inclined to take your word on his importance with a grain of salt. I'll also note, though, that Zand was somehow brought back to life in Robotech, according to Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles; it's possible that something similar could explain a “resurrected” Exedore.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Of course, there's the technological side to it too. Was cloning commonplace as in Macross or a nigh unheard-of thing as in Robotech? If you've got OTM fold reactors, protoculture offers literally no advantage... undermining the crux of Robotech's plot. If active stealth has been a thing for decades, why are the Shadow Fighters a surprise? If Zor's battlefortress was so special, how come the humans who don't possess the secrets of robotechnology were able to build ships that perfectly duplicate it and others that make it look like a beat-up Citroen 2CV mere years after their war with the Zentradi ended? The VF-4 figures prominently in a few stories, but it was never produced in the Robotech version of events.

The OTM fold reactors part is easy: adjust the new Macross chapters to use PC fold engines the same way that RT: Macross adjusted SDF:Macross to use PC fold engines.

There stealth thing? Show me a scene in a Macross show where stealth played a noticeable role, as opposed to just being part of the “background technology”, where it's assumed that both sensors and stealth are in an arms race and tend to come out even. The Shadow Device thing that Edwards used in PttSC could be thought of as a super-stealth system that was a giant leap forward in effectiveness far beyond where the technology would have been otherwise.

The SDF-1 is considered special in Robotech because of the protoculture matrix, not because the ship's design itself is particularly special.

And where in Macross did The VF-4 figure prominently? Macross Plus?

More generally though: as written, Macross 7 starts in 2045; Macross Frontier is in 2059; and Macross Delta is (I think) in 2067. This is before any adjustments to try to make the Jenius family work. My point is that everything after Macross Plus takes place later than Shadow Chronicles, the “leading edge” of the Robotech timeline. They're all in “the future”; so it's Okay to a certain extent of their technology is more advanced.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
There's just too much there to do a light-handed edit like what was done to both Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Genesis Climber MOSPEADA in making Robotech. The two settings have drifted VERY far apart, not just in chronology and story, but in themes and tone. It'd be every bit as jarring as trying to rewrite Starship Troopers into the Star Trek universe. One runs on a heady mix of dystopia and militant xenophobia, and the other is an upbeat, optimistic, let's-all-join-hands-and-sing-rainbow-connection study in "War is bad" anvil-dropping.

Unless you can back this up with examples, I can't argue the point — because it's just an assertion of opinion at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:09 pm
  

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dataweaver wrote:
Remember that we're dealing with an alternate reality here where the Zentran were rewritten from being a galactic empire in their own right to being the Robotech Masters' enforcers. With that kind of rewrite being permitted, the changes related to the Protoculture are no big deal:

That's not actually much of a rewrite... the Zentradi went from being a clone army for an extinct precursor species to a clone army for a species that was slowly going extinct.


dataweaver wrote:
You don't need the Protoculture for this; just a realization that this region of space is rich in resources that can allow for zero-time folds accepts the galaxy. That alone would be enough motivation to finance an exploratory mission into Vajra space.

dataweaver wrote:
Again, you don't need the Protoculture for this; just an understanding of what fold crystals are capable of, and a transhumanism philosophy that sees a galactic have mind as a good thing.

Character motivations are a fairly important part of the story, though.


dataweaver wrote:
Thus my various comments about your standards being too strict.

I would be inclined to argue that yours are too loose, since you're essentially set on eliminating significant parts of the stories and settings of those shows. The topic under discussion was not "how can we massively rewrite these titles to theoretically fit Robotech", but rather "will they fit gracefully without a lot of (re)work". Much of what you're pitching here is a ground-up retooling of the story and setting.


dataweaver wrote:
Not so much “coincidence” (which implies that there fundamentally is no explanation for it) as “mystery”: the reason why there's so much generic similarity between humans, Tirolians, and Zentreadi isn't known; but there's a good chance that it's only because the connection between the three groups' origins hasn't been uncovered yet.

They dismiss it as coincidental in the series... not as an unsolved mystery, just as a simple matter of happenstance.


dataweaver wrote:
Mmm… no. Robotech does not say that the Zentreadi go extinct; it just doesn't deal with them in Earth space after the Macross Saga.

Scott Bernard makes the implication that the Zentradi are extinct in the New Generation when he wishes the same fate on the Invid. The RTSC materials indicate Breetai took the remaining population of them into space with the UEEF, and we know they were wiped out there in 2043 by friendly fire from the Icarus.


dataweaver wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Moreover, the New UN Government's having incorporated several other alien cultures into itself doesn't really work with Robotech's xenophobic bent. The UEDF and UEEF brass were depicted as being borderline WH40K levels of xenophobic c.2044, and talking about peaceful coexistence was enough to get you clapped in irons even after the Invid occupation ended.
…and yet, there are the Sentinels.

Who, in Prelude, are treated with open suspicion by most of the UEEF brass. The Admirals Hunter seem to be the only ones who actually trust them, and the ones responsible for actually liaising with them. The rank and file in RTSC itself are heard to espouse a very Imperium-esque view that the only good alien is a dead alien even in casual conversation.


dataweaver wrote:
You're repeating yourself; you said all of this in an earlier post (which I didn't respond to individually because I'm usually at work and using my cell phone to respond). I've already agreed, in the quote you're responding to, that the Jenius family is problematic; I'm not sure why you feel the need to repeat that part.

That'd be because they and their family play such a MASSIVE role in events between 2018 and 2051. It really can't be stressed enough.


dataweaver wrote:
That said, it's entirely possible that the resolution of the Shadow Chronicles story could resolve some of these issues: we don't know what happened to the Pioneer. If anything like Robotech III: Odyssey is involved (where the SDF-3's misfold resulted in time travel into the distant past), a lot of the Jenius family issues could easily be explained.

We have a pretty good idea, actually. The leaked plot outlines for the rest of the Shadow Chronicles OVA, which Harmony Gold did their damndest to suppress, indicated that the SDF-3's disappearance was nothing fancier than a simple case of being captured by the Haydonites and used as bait in a trap.


dataweaver wrote:
I'll also grant that Exsedol/Exedore might be problematic; though I haven't watched Macross 7, so I can't comment on how significant of a role he plays — and given your (IMHO) overly strict standards, I'm inclined to take your word on his importance with a grain of salt.

He doesn't do a hell of a lot, but he's on display fairly prominently. He's a literal talking head (at giant size, his head sticks up thru a hole in the floor of the Battle 7's bridge) who serves as the resident Mr. Exposition, though he does tour and decode the Protoculture ruins on Lux, and at one point takes command of Battle 7 while Max is away. (He also plays a minor role as a dispenser of comedic snark.)


dataweaver wrote:
I'll also note, though, that Zand was somehow brought back to life in Robotech, according to Prelude to the Shadow Chronicles; it's possible that something similar could explain a “resurrected” Exedore.

Zand didn't come back to life in a strictly literal sense, it was your standard trope of the character whose alleged death was a coverup for him taking some kind of clandestine assignment.


dataweaver wrote:
There stealth thing? Show me a scene in a Macross show where stealth played a noticeable role, as opposed to just being part of the “background technology”, where it's assumed that both sensors and stealth are in an arms race and tend to come out even.

There are actually several. Macross Zero's first episode has the active stealth-equipped Sv-51 being invisible to the radar of the UN Forces fighters in the area. Macross Plus has a scene showing the YF-21's active stealth system rendering it invisible to the radar in Isamu's VF-11B even at point-blank range. There's also the Brera's VF-27 being invisible to most sensors prior to him revealing himself to the Frontier NUNS in Macross Frontier (he got dismissed as a foo fighter when spotted). Macross Delta has a few examples of active stealth systems being used to sneak past orbital patrols. There are several more examples in side stories, like Ivan Tsari's VF-27 being invisible to Echo Flight's radars in Macross E.


dataweaver wrote:
The Shadow Device thing that Edwards used in PttSC could be thought of as a super-stealth system that was a giant leap forward in effectiveness far beyond where the technology would have been otherwise.

Its demonstrated effectiveness, apart from concealing the Shadow Fighter from the protoculture sensors that only the Invid appear to use, is no greater than the active stealth tech in common use in Macross... the difference being that, in Robotech, they don't have countermeasures for it.


dataweaver wrote:
The SDF-1 is considered special in Robotech because of the protoculture matrix, not because the ship's design itself is particularly special.

That's actually not correct. The Robotech Masters attribute several systems, such as the barrier system, to it being Zor's ship. The protoculture matrix was the most important detail, but far from the ONLY one.


dataweaver wrote:
And where in Macross did The VF-4 figure prominently? Macross Plus?

Macross: Flash Back 2012, Macross 7 Trash, Macross R, Macross VF-X, and Macross M3 from the main chronology, and Macross: Eternal Love Song from the Macross II continuity.

Its most prominent appearances among that would probably be its debut in Flash Back 2012, its use by the Dancing Skulls special forces team in Macross M3 (Max and Milia), the NUNS Special Forces using them in Macross VF-X, and them being the mid-story upgrade for the crew of the Prometheus II in Macross: Eternal Love Song.


dataweaver wrote:
More generally though: as written, Macross 7 starts in 2045; Macross Frontier is in 2059; and Macross Delta is (I think) in 2067. This is before any adjustments to try to make the Jenius family work. My point is that everything after Macross Plus takes place later than Shadow Chronicles, the “leading edge” of the Robotech timeline. They're all in “the future”; so it's Okay to a certain extent of their technology is more advanced.

I'd agree in principle (and yes, Delta is set in 2067)... but making such a MASSIVE leap in technology overnight would be really out of place in a setting where Word of God says technology is largely stagnating.

Specs-wise (and yes specs are part of canon in both cases) the state of the art VF in Robotech c.2044 is barely on par with a 0th Generation VF design like the Sv-51 or VF-0. Not even the thermonuclear-powered variety like the VF-0+ and Sv-52, the conventional jet turbofan powered ones. If you cut over at 2045, how do you explain a 10x+ increase in performance like that? Or the complete 180 in armament, with the new VFs using high-powered rotary cannons and variable ordnance mountings instead of exclusively short-ranged micro-ordnance. Or the sudden return of SSTO capability that went out with the VF-1?


dataweaver wrote:
Unless you can back this up with examples, I can't argue the point — because it's just an assertion of opinion at this point.

I've already given a number of examples in previous posts, but if you wish I will work up a list for you.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:10 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
[
taalismn wrote:
Sorely tempted to play this for strained laughs....
The agricultural companies get ahold of Protoculture, and snuff any legislation that would encourage adopting advanced efficient fusion. Monsanto and TrueGreen defend 'greentech' over 'suntech'.
That's what might have happened with the Robotech Masters...the Protoculture Addicts took over and never looked back at any complementary technologies that could have replaced FoL as the mainstream power source, fixating instead on the biological aspects of Protoculture.

That'd explain the Haydonites... hacked off environmentalists trying to manage the transplanted invasive species.

(As a hybrid systems and alt fuels tech specialist, I'm getting a good chuckle out of this one.)


From a greener perspective, Protoculture's the perfect bio-fuel, renewable, no apparent dangerous wastes, and clean as a whistle, and the zealots would axe any alternatives. With fusion, you might have radioactive byproducts and helium 'ash' to dispose of.

To paraphrase the Simpsons' 'cabal' episode(starring Patrick Stewart)
"Who killed the fusion car? We Did! We Did!"

_________________
-------------
"Trouble rather the Tiger in his Lair,
Than the Sage among his Books,
For all the Empires and Kingdoms,
The Armies and Works that you hold Dear,
Are to him but the Playthings of the Moment,
To be turned over with the Flick of a Finger,
And the Turning of a Page"

--------Rudyard Kipling
------------


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:32 am
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
dataweaver wrote:
Remember that we're dealing with an alternate reality here where the Zentran were rewritten from being a galactic empire in their own right to being the Robotech Masters' enforcers. With that kind of rewrite being permitted, the changes related to the Protoculture are no big deal:

That's not actually much of a rewrite... the Zentradi went from being a clone army for an extinct precursor species to a clone army for a species that was slowly going extinct.
“The people we're answerable to haven't existed for eons” is rather different from “the people we answer to are still around.”


Seto Kaiba wrote:
Character motivations are a fairly important part of the story, though.

Of course. But character motivations don't have to be the same. Consider the personality rewrite Dana Sterling got; and I'm not proposing anything nearly that radical here.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
dataweaver wrote:
Thus my various comments about your standards being too strict.

I would be inclined to argue that yours are too loose, since you're essentially set on eliminating significant parts of the stories and settings of those shows. The topic under discussion was not "how can we massively rewrite these titles to theoretically fit Robotech", but rather "will they fit gracefully without a lot of (re)work".
That has already been answered, in the negative. So either the topic can end on that note, or it can address the question of what reworking would be needed to get them to fit together. Which is where my so-called “ad hominem attack” comes in: if you're not really interested in finding a way to make it work, then you're going to argue for shutting down the conversation; because trying to find ways to make it work is pretty much the only place this discussion still has to go.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Much of what you're pitching here is a ground-up retooling of the story and setting.
No more ground-up than SDF:Macross to RT:Macross.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
They dismiss it as coincidental in the series... not as an unsolved mystery, just as a simple matter of happenstance.
No, they don't. They just don't follow up on it.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Scott Bernard makes the implication that the Zentradi are extinct in the New Generation when he wishes the same fate on the Invid. The RTSC materials indicate Breetai took the remaining population of them into space with the UEEF, and we know they were wiped out there in 2043 by friendly fire from the Icarus.
Can you give me the episode where Scott referenced the Zentreadi? I don't remember it. That said, the Zentreadi were badly hurt during the Rain of Death; that alone strikes me as a fate Scott would wish upon the Invid.

Also, we know that at least one Zentreadi was still alive through most of the events of the Shadow Chronicles movie, if not longer (Miriya Sterling); and it's very likely that other micronized Zentreadi continued on as well; it's only the full-sized Zentreadi warriors that arguably got wiped out. And even that's not certain.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
dataweaver wrote:
…and yet, there are the Sentinels.
Who, in Prelude, are treated with open suspicion by most of the UEEF brass. The Admirals Hunter seem to be the only ones who actually trust them, and the ones responsible for actually liaising with them. The rank and file in RTSC itself are heard to espouse a very Imperium-esque view that the only good alien is a dead alien even in casual conversation.
Actually, we don't get the UEEF brass' opinion in PttSC: we get Marcus Rush's opinion, and his friend's.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
dataweaver wrote:
That said, it's entirely possible that the resolution of the Shadow Chronicles story could resolve some of these issues: we don't know what happened to the Pioneer. If anything like Robotech III: Odyssey is involved (where the SDF-3's misfold resulted in time travel into the distant past), a lot of the Jenius family issues could easily be explained.
We have a pretty good idea, actually. The leaked plot outlines for the rest of the Shadow Chronicles OVA, which Harmony Gold did their damndest to suppress, indicated that the SDF-3's disappearance was nothing fancier than a simple case of being captured by the Haydonites and used as bait in a trap.
News to me. Literally. Where can I find those leaked plot outlines?

(That said, they have about as much canonicity as the Sentinels scripts that got released a while back: the rest of the Shadow Chronicles never got made, so what they intended to do is at best a guideline for the rest of the story.)

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Zand didn't come back to life in a strictly literal sense, it was your standard trope of the character whose alleged death was a coverup for him taking some kind of clandestine assignment.

Dana saw him consumed by the Flower of Life as he was acting against her. How is that a “coverup”?

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Its demonstrated effectiveness, apart from concealing the Shadow Fighter from the protoculture sensors that only the Invid appear to use, is no greater than the active stealth tech in common use in Macross... the difference being that, in Robotech, they don't have countermeasures for it.
Or, its effectiveness was that it trounced the countermeasures they had.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
dataweaver wrote:
The SDF-1 is considered special in Robotech because of the protoculture matrix, not because the ship's design itself is particularly special.
That's actually not correct. The Robotech Masters attribute several systems, such as the barrier system, to it being Zor's ship. The protoculture matrix was the most important detail, but far from the ONLY one.
OK; I'll Grant you the Wave Motion Shield and Wave Motion Gun — err, Reflex Cannon and Barrier Shield.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
I'd agree in principle (and yes, Delta is set in 2067)... but making such a MASSIVE leap in technology overnight would be really out of place in a setting where Word of God says technology is largely stagnating.

Specs-wise (and yes specs are part of canon in both cases) the state of the art VF in Robotech c.2044 is barely on par with a 0th Generation VF design like the Sv-51 or VF-0. Not even the thermonuclear-powered variety like the VF-0+ and Sv-52, the conventional jet turbofan powered ones. If you cut over at 2045, how do you explain a 10x+ increase in performance like that? Or the complete 180 in armament, with the new VFs using high-powered rotary cannons and variable ordnance mountings instead of exclusively short-ranged micro-ordnance. Or the sudden return of SSTO capability that went out with the VF-1?
Odyssey. That, and maybe push Macross 7 out by a few years.

Seto Kaiba wrote:
I've already given a number of examples in previous posts, but if you wish I will work up a list for you.

Please.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:30 am
  

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dataweaver wrote:
Can you give me the episode where Scott referenced the Zentreadi? I don't remember it. That said, the Zentreadi were badly hurt during the Rain of Death; that alone strikes me as a fate Scott would wish upon the Invid.

Scott references it in "Sandstorm" (after Rand's Laytow/Shadowking trippie dream and he is back with the main group).

dataweaver wrote:
Dana saw him consumed by the Flower of Life as he was acting against her. How is that a “coverup”?

Dana saw him consumed by the FoL in the NOVEL UNIVERSE, where the Zand arc in TRM was ADDED to the story. In the Animated Universe(s) nothing like that happned (I can't comment on the Comico Comic version). If so give me the time code and the ep.

Seto wrote:
The problem being that there isn't really a characteristic emission from those for an enemy to detect the way HBT produced in MOSPEADA or protoculture produced in Robotech. The one thing they do produce, emissions-wise, is fold waves... and there are already passive stealth measures in the setting for blocking those in widespread use in the Macross setting (as a countermeasure for cross-dimension radar).

Not necessarily. Do we really know what the emission IS that Invid/Inbit are actually detecting on their sensors? We know its associated with PC/HBT fuel expediture, but we don' t know if it exists for TRO (for purposes of adaption I'd go with it as vulnerable).

Seto wrote:
Memory duplication like that only works if the original is still alive to be duplicated.

Memory duplication with cloning works like that IN SDF: M you mean, but we have evidence to suggest that its atleast possible in Robotech given all the effort the Masters display in recovering the long dead Zor's memories from his clones.

Though that is Masters level cloning and not Zentreadi level cloning, but terrans could have initiated cloning on individuals when they where a live if that is an issue.

Seto wrote:
The ancient Protoculture's importance to the later Macross titles really cannot be overstated. You end up with a fundamental area of incompatibility there, since they were written out of Robotech and the genetic similarity between humans and other species that is fairly important to several stories including the Macross Delta series was chalked up to coincidence rather than design in Robotech.

There are several avenues open to introducing the "Ancient Protoculture" Race into Robotech:
1. The APR in SDF:M univese ARE the Robotech Masters. Remember that in RT's adpation the role of the APR in relation to the Zentreadi became the RM's relation.
2. The APR in SDF:M univese ARE the evolutionary progenitors of Robotech Masters. Gloval's history lesson on the Zentreadi suggests the "modern" Zentreadi evolved from the original Zentreadi, so if the Zents evolved that likely means the APR could do so to becoming the RM.
3. The Haydonites in Prelude reveal that Shadow Technology is "a very old technology that we Haydonites had previously believed to be lost from common knowledge." Given the Regis's familiarity with the technology (IIRC in TSC, at least in the form of the N-S missiles), and that the Invid have had more than one home world (before she elects to leave Earth). Historically this could indicate "exitinct" species these two races have encountered could be adapted to fill the role of AP
4. RT's equivlaent of the APR has yet to be revieled/introduced as a separate race/entity.
5. Some combination of the above on a case by case basis
6. I'm sure there are others that I'm not even considering at the moment.

Seto wrote:
There's the chronological side to it as well. If you don't start space colonization until after the Haydonite conflict, which you'd have to since all the colony ships got blown up, you've got a hell of a job explaining all these characters who are from colonies... especially when some of them would be born decades before the Haydonite conflict ended. You can't move the stories too far out to compensate, because there are an array of holdover characters, their children, colleagues, etc. who have ties to events with specific given dates that overlap with Robotech's events. Is Earth barren radioactive wasteland, the seat of galactic power covered with ultra high-tech cities, or a verdant paradise that exists under alien occupation with a mid-19th century tech level? If you have to push Macross 7's events farther out to accommodate the Invid invasion, it's implausible that Max and Milia had another kid in their mid-60's. Several characters who died would have to suddenly be alive again, like Exsedol.

Well dialogue in NG#1 suggests colony ships ("all born out in deep space aboard a robotech ship"-or something to that effect). And AotSC doesn't rule out colonies being established, only that colonization efforts where halted due to ongoing hostitilies, though dialogue would seem to suggest something more like the Immigrant fleet of Macross, or O'Niel Colonies of Gundam, or Drifts in Andromeda than occupation of astronomical bodies (moons, planets, asteroids, comets).

Seto wrote:
Its demonstrated effectiveness, apart from concealing the Shadow Fighter from the protoculture sensors that only the Invid appear to use, is no greater than the active stealth tech in common use in Macross... the difference being that, in Robotech, they don't have countermeasures for it.

The Shadow Cloaking System does have one other "cloaking" feature in Robotech: gravity/mass. We see this in Prelude (when the device is turned off on a N-S warhead) and in TSC (IIRC the shadow devive was used to escpe the gravity of a black hole).

Off hand I don't know if SDF:M has anything like "gravity" cloaking. I know they have gravity control tech, but this seems an order more complicated.

Seto wrote:
Specs-wise (and yes specs are part of canon in both cases) the state of the art VF in Robotech c.2044 is barely on par with a 0th Generation VF design like the Sv-51 or VF-0. Not even the thermonuclear-powered variety like the VF-0+ and Sv-52, the conventional jet turbofan powered ones. If you cut over at 2045, how do you explain a 10x+ increase in performance like that? Or the complete 180 in armament, with the new VFs using high-powered rotary cannons and variable ordnance mountings instead of exclusively short-ranged micro-ordnance. Or the sudden return of SSTO capability that went out with the VF-1?

RE: SSTO
SSTO capability though did not go out with the VF-1. Of the 10 RT VFs (by # assignment), we lack stats on the -2/3/4/5 (in RT AFAIK), and the -7/9 have SSTO (actually they exceed SSTO*), the -10 has helicopter mode (so it might not have the requirment). That only leaves the -6 (which a case could be made that it does based on TSC, if even for only for one sub-type, that we've discused at great length previously) and the -8 (A case might exist for limited SSTO). That's hardly what I would consider a return to SSTO capability especially since even in 2044 it is still present in some VFs.

*I know I'm lumping the Beta's -7 version with the -9 version, but since the -7 has the same requirements as the -9 (and is portrayed as using "matured" technology). I'd also point out that they are greater than SSTO with ~20tons of -6 dead mass/weight, take that away and they have even more performance.

Re: rotary cannons
In RT though we are starting to see the return of projectile cannons in 2044. The Cyclone is getting a railgun (projectile cannon), the Silverback has two projectile cannons (twin version of the cyc system, and another in the 2E RPG though it might be an RPG only thing). While that is Cyclone and not VF, it stands that projectile cannons could make a return.

Re: Variable ordnance mountings
That isn't actually the case though. The VF-7/9 are known to have hardpoints, and we know the -6 and -9 where looking at FAST PACK systems in 2044**. So their return would not be the 180 you claim. (the -2/3/4/5 are unknown, and the -10 was new and fairly short lived I'd add so no way to really know what the full capabilities could be taken to, the -8 also uses external mountings for missiles and really doesn't get the exploration like other VFs though I know fanworks that have introduced fastpacks to the unit graphically)

**Theoretically this means they could mount heavier missiles in specialized FAST PACK system for the -6 to use.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:20 pm
  

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Knight

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dataweaver wrote:
“The people we're answerable to haven't existed for eons” is rather different from “the people we answer to are still around.”

IMO, there's not a lot of immediate difference... in both cases, the leadership which they were answerable to has effectively lost control of them as a result of being out of touch for aeons. Results-wise, there isn't a lot of difference between leadership being incommunicado because they've done a runner vs. because they're dead.


dataweaver wrote:
Of course. But character motivations don't have to be the same. Consider the personality rewrite Dana Sterling got; and I'm not proposing anything nearly that radical here.

I wouldn't say they rewrote her personality.

It's more like they simply cut a decent sized chunk out of her personality when they did the broadcast standards edit for Robotech. She's still an irresponsible and immature boy-crazy airhead in the Robotech version, they just cut a couple of her ditzier moments that involved nudity or explained that her acting out was down to her only being in the army to land a handsome boyfriend. Most of that ended up returning in the remaster too...


dataweaver wrote:
That has already been answered, in the negative. So either the topic can end on that note, or it can address the question of what reworking would be needed to get them to fit together. Which is where my so-called “ad hominem attack” comes in: if you're not really interested in finding a way to make it work, then you're going to argue for shutting down the conversation; because trying to find ways to make it work is pretty much the only place this discussion still has to go.

The angle I'm looking at it from is more on the order of "How much can reasonably be changed before the essence of the story is lost and the continuity starts breaking down." There's a point where you're no longer adapting the Macross story, but rather writing an all-new story to explain adopting mechanical designs into Robotech like so many old RPG supplement sites did back in the 90's.

Because the later shows and side stories are so heavily interconnected, there's not much that can be done to them without starting to break aspects of the story and/or setting.


dataweaver wrote:
No more ground-up than SDF:Macross to RT:Macross.

Quite a bit more, if you're considering axing the centerpiece of multiple plots.


dataweaver wrote:
Can you give me the episode where Scott referenced the Zentreadi? I don't remember it. That said, the Zentreadi were badly hurt during the Rain of Death; that alone strikes me as a fate Scott would wish upon the Invid.

I'll have to get that for you when I get home.


dataweaver wrote:
Also, we know that at least one Zentreadi was still alive through most of the events of the Shadow Chronicles movie, if not longer (Miriya Sterling); and it's very likely that other micronized Zentreadi continued on as well; it's only the full-sized Zentreadi warriors that arguably got wiped out. And even that's not certain.

Having just one surviving specimen of a species is functionally extinct.

Wiping out the Zentradi in Prelude was almost certainly a move motivated by legal concerns. Robotech II: the Sentinels had previously established that the few Zentradi who weren't wiped out in Khyron's revolt left Earth with the SDF-3 and served in Breetai's forces, so they built on that by having Breetai's forces get wiped out by Edwards destroying the Regent's ship during a boarding operation and killing Exedore off during the neutron s missile test.

(We'll never know what Miriya looks like c.2044, also for legal reasons, but the Zentradi in RTSC are pretty damn conspicuous. They're all powder blue and eight feet tall, an appearance that doesn't lend itself well to blending in.)


dataweaver wrote:
Actually, we don't get the UEEF brass' opinion in PttSC: we get Marcus Rush's opinion, and his friend's.

We do, twice. Once in a conference early on, and later when Brigadier General T.R. Edwards goes on a villain monologue about how untrustworthy aliens are (blissfully aware that he is both completely correct, and equally untrustworthy himself). We arguably get a third one from Vince in RTSC when Scott gets berated for harboring an alien.


dataweaver wrote:
News to me. Literally. Where can I find those leaked plot outlines?

I believe I still have a copy of the files. I'll drop you a PM later.


dataweaver wrote:
(That said, they have about as much canonicity as the Sentinels scripts that got released a while back: the rest of the Shadow Chronicles never got made, so what they intended to do is at best a guideline for the rest of the story.)

A little more than that, I think, since Harmony Gold at least still pretends it's going to one day make Shadow Rising... though their filings with the USPTO tell a rather different story.


dataweaver wrote:
Dana saw him consumed by the Flower of Life as he was acting against her. How is that a “coverup”?

Pretty sure that one didn't happen in the official continuity?


dataweaver wrote:
Or, its effectiveness was that it trounced the countermeasures they had.

It's literally a plot point in Prelude that they don't have any... even after Haydonite "advisers" help them suss out shadow technology for themselves.




dataweaver wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
I've already given a number of examples in previous posts, but if you wish I will work up a list for you.

Please.

With respect to Robotech landing on the "dystopia and militant xenophobia" side of things... the list will be a post of its own, it's kinda BIG.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:35 pm
  

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I'll just put this here.....

http://worldofjaymz.wikia.com/wiki/Alternate_Robotech

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:52 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Scott references it in "Sandstorm" (after Rand's Laytow/Shadowking trippie dream and he is back with the main group).

Thank you, you saved me a trip to the basement to find my DVDs.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Not necessarily. Do we really know what the emission IS that Invid/Inbit are actually detecting on their sensors? We know its associated with PC/HBT fuel expediture, but we don' t know if it exists for TRO (for purposes of adaption I'd go with it as vulnerable).

RAW, for the RPG, fusion power is not detectable... only protoculture power sources are. (NB, the appropriate rule in the core book was written before it was established that the Macross Saga mecha ran on fusion, hence the erroneous list of examples of protoculture-powered mecha.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
There are several avenues open to introducing the "Ancient Protoculture" Race into Robotech:
1. The APR in SDF:M univese ARE the Robotech Masters. Remember that in RT's adpation the role of the APR in relation to the Zentreadi became the RM's relation.[
2. The APR in SDF:M univese ARE the evolutionary progenitors of Robotech Masters. Gloval's history lesson on the Zentreadi suggests the "modern" Zentreadi evolved from the original Zentreadi, so if the Zents evolved that likely means the APR could do so to becoming the RM.

IMO, 1 isn't really workable unless they're a degenerate band of Protoculture who'd escaped the collapse of their civilization and lost most of their tech. The Masters are advanced, for sure, but nowhere near the sufficiently advanced tech level which the Protoculture display. (Which, I guess, would make Case 1 into Case 2.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
3. The Haydonites in Prelude reveal that Shadow Technology is "a very old technology that we Haydonites had previously believed to be lost from common knowledge." Given the Regis's familiarity with the technology (IIRC in TSC, at least in the form of the N-S missiles), and that the Invid have had more than one home world (before she elects to leave Earth). Historically this could indicate "exitinct" species these two races have encountered could be adapted to fill the role of AP

This, IMO, is the best fit. Dimensional shifting is a fundamental part of a number of overtechnologies from the Macross universe. Instead of the 10+ dimensional shift used, the 4 dimensional shift technology the Haydonites have could be a tech they'd cribbed from Protoculture ruins.



ShadowLogan wrote:
Well dialogue in NG#1 suggests colony ships ("all born out in deep space aboard a robotech ship"-or something to that effect).

Your earlier citation in the "something bothering me" thread would seem to explain this handily... not a colony ship, but a military fleet large enough to constitute a spacegoing population large enough to be nominally self-sustaining.


ShadowLogan wrote:
And AotSC doesn't rule out colonies being established, only that colonization efforts where halted due to ongoing hostitilies, though dialogue would seem to suggest something more like the Immigrant fleet of Macross, or O'Niel Colonies of Gundam, or Drifts in Andromeda than occupation of astronomical bodies (moons, planets, asteroids, comets).

The way it's worded, the efforts towards colonization outside the solar system didn't begin until after the 2nd Robotech War, when they'd already lost access to a civilian population of prospective colonists. It was deemed too dangeorus anyway, and the construction of the ships was halted.

If we're adopting the explanation that requires the fewest assumptions, we'd have to go with there being no colonies yet due to lack of resources. Ships with colony bays didn't come into service until 2043-2044, and proper usable colony ships were never completed. (Nice job blowing it up, Vince.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
The Shadow Cloaking System does have one other "cloaking" feature in Robotech: gravity/mass. We see this in Prelude (when the device is turned off on a N-S warhead) and in TSC (IIRC the shadow devive was used to escpe the gravity of a black hole).

Granted, but it is not established that that is a standard feature of all shadow field systems or if that masking effect was unique to the version implemented in those neutron star matter warheads due to size/power constraints.

I will note that gravitational sensors are fairly common in Macross from late 3rd Generation VFs onwards (due to the introduction of fold boosters), and changes in a local area of space's gravitational gradient would increase, rather than diminish, the detectability of an aircraft. I don't recall if gravitational sensors are commonplace in Robotech.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Off hand I don't know if SDF:M has anything like "gravity" cloaking. I know they have gravity control tech, but this seems an order more complicated.

There's inertia displacement technology, but that's not quite the same thing. Their gravity control systems can negate local gravity, but they've never been depicted attempting to reverse the gravity of something so massive as neutron star matter.


ShadowLogan wrote:
SSTO capability though did not go out with the VF-1. Of the 10 RT VFs (by # assignment), we lack stats on the -2/3/4/5 (in RT AFAIK),

-2 and -3 appear to be skipped numbers in Robotech, very likely an artifact of the adaptation. In Macross, those numbers were assigned to prototypes. The VF-X-2 was a design that competed against the VF-1 and lost, and the VF-X-3 was destroyed along with its design team in the Zentradi bombardment.

-4 and -5 were dead-end prototypes in RT, so they shouldn't count as we're talking about production level aircraft. The -4 may or may not, it's hard to say given that they're missing the secondary engine systems that gave the VF-4 in Macross such a famously high rate of climb and high altitude performance.


ShadowLogan wrote:
[...] and the -7/9 have SSTO (actually they exceed SSTO*), the -10 has helicopter mode (so it might not have the requirment).

Granted, the Beta does, but it's not really a fighter... it's a bomber or at worst a glorified FAST pack. The Southern Cross Army mecha are depicted as having to use shuttles and other ships to get to orbit, so it's unlikely in their case (moreso in light of how they're officially supposed to be less advanced and capable).


ShadowLogan wrote:
In RT though we are starting to see the return of projectile cannons in 2044. The Cyclone is getting a railgun (projectile cannon), the Silverback has two projectile cannons (twin version of the cyc system, and another in the 2E RPG though it might be an RPG only thing). While that is Cyclone and not VF, it stands that projectile cannons could make a return.

That's a fair point... though railguns are a rather different animal to chemical propellant slugthrowers. We don't start seeing railguns in common use in Macross's main continuity until c.2059, partly because chemical propellants based on OTM material science are just THAT good.

(Probably why Macross II makes a slightly better fit, since in that, railguns are ubiquitous.)



ShadowLogan wrote:
Re: Variable ordnance mountings
That isn't actually the case though. The VF-7/9 are known to have hardpoints, and we know the -6 and -9 where looking at FAST PACK systems in 2044**.

The Beta is never shown to use its pylons though, outside of production line art... even in circumstances where it would be ENORMOUSLY advantageous to do so.

As a lifting body, it's dubious the Logan would be able to significantly vary its missile payload.

The FAST packs for the Alpha and Beta, well, I'll grant you that's a type of variability but it's pretty minimal in both cases, with the Beta's focusing mainly on guns and the Alpha's focusing mainly on more verniers. That's also only on a custom prototype as well (the "Super Shadow Fighters"), not a production option.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:20 pm
  

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Knight

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Seto wrote:
RAW, for the RPG, fusion power is not detectable... only protoculture power sources are. (NB, the appropriate rule in the core book was written before it was established that the Macross Saga mecha ran on fusion, hence the erroneous list of examples of protoculture-powered mecha.)

Until we know just what the Invid are detecting though, its hard to say if something in another technological universe would be vulnerable. That is why I think it should be vulnerable. I get that fusion isn't supposed to be vulnerable, but PC "giveaways" might be elsewhere in the design (in TMS we're told workers install Protoculture-chips into circuit boards, which could for simplicity give it away).

Seto wrote:
The way it's worded, the efforts towards colonization outside the solar system didn't begin until after the 2nd Robotech War, when they'd already lost access to a civilian population of prospective colonists. It was deemed too dangeorus anyway, and the construction of the ships was halted.

If we're adopting the explanation that requires the fewest assumptions, we'd have to go with there being no colonies yet due to lack of resources. Ships with colony bays didn't come into service until 2043-2044, and proper usable colony ships were never completed. (Nice job blowing it up, Vince.)

I'm not sure that is the case though in terms of wording. The Invid arrive w/n a year of the end of the 2RW, and according to the Infopedia the UEEF fleet at this point wasn't in the best of shape needing a long overhaul. IIRC survey missions are cited in the timeline in the second half of the 2010s, before the Pioneer departed (timeline still contains it happening in 2016, and Masters are shown surveying a wrecked "ASC" fleet in 2013-4 IINM). So colonization could have occurred to some extent then to.

Basically I guess we can at least agree that the inter arc periods are a mess it appears.

Seto wrote:
-2 and -3 appear to be skipped numbers in Robotech, very likely an artifact of the adaptation. In Macross, those numbers were assigned to prototypes. The VF-X-2 was a design that competed against the VF-1 and lost, and the VF-X-3 was destroyed along with its design team in the Zentradi bombardment.

-4 and -5 were dead-end prototypes in RT, so they shouldn't count as we're talking about production level aircraft. The -4 may or may not, it's hard to say given that they're missing the secondary engine systems that gave the VF-4 in Macross such a famously high rate of climb and high altitude performance.


I agree that the -2/3 are skipped, and the -4/5 are dead end prototypes. However I was looking at it from a technology availability standpoint rather than an production requirement. Those are two different things IMHO.

Seto wrote:
Granted, the Beta does, but it's not really a fighter... it's a bomber or at worst a glorified FAST pack. The Southern Cross Army mecha are depicted as having to use shuttles and other ships to get to orbit, so it's unlikely in their case (moreso in light of how they're officially supposed to be less advanced and capable).

The Beta is classed as a fighter though. I would even argue that airframe design aside, it would make a very good replacement for the VF-1. That though is for another discussion.

The VF-1 though needs a dedicated booster system to launch from some locations for some flight profiles. So I'm not convinced we can necessarily toss the -8 out in terms of this capability. The AGAC's hybrid aircraft nature IMHO points toward it not having SSTO capacity or even sub-orbital launch capacity.

Seto wrote:
The Beta is never shown to use its pylons though, outside of production line art... even in circumstances where it would be ENORMOUSLY advantageous to do so.

As a lifting body, it's dubious the Logan would be able to significantly vary its missile payload.

The FAST packs for the Alpha and Beta, well, I'll grant you that's a type of variability but it's pretty minimal in both cases, with the Beta's focusing mainly on guns and the Alpha's focusing mainly on more verniers. That's also only on a custom prototype as well (the "Super Shadow Fighters"), not a production option.


The Beta's pylon use though is "official" in the sense we are told its present. I agree it isn't depicted in use, I'm just saying the ability exists. It does go under utilized which might point to availability issues.

The Logan could potentially vary its missile load, but it would be far EASIER in space than for atmospheric use. This also ignores the old Sentinels comics which had the Logan packing internal missile bays.

While the SSFs might not be production, it shows that such line of thinking is returning to human planners. So if one is adapting SDF:M, the return of FAST packs isn't necessarily an out of the blue development. I would think that with "new" designs it would be easier to integrate them than trying to adapt them into an existing design.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:20 pm
  

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Knight

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ShadowLogan wrote:
Until we know just what the Invid are detecting though, its hard to say if something in another technological universe would be vulnerable. That is why I think it should be vulnerable. I get that fusion isn't supposed to be vulnerable, but PC "giveaways" might be elsewhere in the design (in TMS we're told workers install Protoculture-chips into circuit boards, which could for simplicity give it away).

As we're talking about the Robotech RPG in particular, we can say with at least reasonable confidence that the Invid protoculture sensors only detect some sort of a unique radiation produced by active protoculture power sources. The one reference made to protoculture-based circuitry doesn't carry any mention of it being visible to Invid sensors when active/energized... but anything that's using protoculture as its means of generating energy, even mutants consuming the raw fuel for a boost, is a detectable emission source.

Whether that's necessarily true for the animated continuity is another matter... but my suspicion would be that protoculture circuitry is similarly invisible, given that in every instance we see Invid sensor outputs what we're shown producing a reaction was only ever the engines.

Based on the translations I've done, to the best of my knowledge the only emissions produced by an OTM thermonuclear reaction system are heat and very low levels of fold waves from the GIC system in the reactor core.

A GM obviously would want the Macross mecha detectable, because they're be overpowered as hell anyway... invisible to boot just gives the players even more of an unfair advantage, considering the difference in firepower between settings would make using Macross mecha against the Invid a lot like using a MOAB to shell chestnuts.


ShadowLogan wrote:
I agree that the -2/3 are skipped, and the -4/5 are dead end prototypes. However I was looking at it from a technology availability standpoint rather than an production requirement. Those are two different things IMHO.

What I was talking about when I made the point was the lack of the capability and the implications of cutting across to a comparable date in Macross was that it wasn't a capability that was available on a production basis in current-gen fighters for the Robotech universe.

I'm sure Dr. Lang or whoever could knock up a prototype that could do it, no sweat, but by in large we're looking at production models.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The VF-1 though needs a dedicated booster system to launch from some locations for some flight profiles.

Mostly an efficiency thing, if we're looking to the more detailed Macross spec... the booster system's about getting there fast, without using a lot of internally stored fuel. (One of the biggest problems with the VF-1 was its internal fuel capacity was a little on the small side, giving it a very limited operating range in vacuum.) Later designs addressed the problem by the simple expedient of engines better suited to higher altitudes (e.g. the VF-4) or simply more efficient engines in general.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The Beta's pylon use though is "official" in the sense we are told its present. I agree it isn't depicted in use, I'm just saying the ability exists. It does go under utilized which might point to availability issues.

From the RPG standpoint, it's there but it's kinda useless... since the VF-1 is the only one that can carry long-range munitions for reasons unclear.


ShadowLogan wrote:
While the SSFs might not be production, it shows that such line of thinking is returning to human planners. So if one is adapting SDF:M, the return of FAST packs isn't necessarily an out of the blue development. I would think that with "new" designs it would be easier to integrate them than trying to adapt them into an existing design.

Ironically, if it cut over to Macross in the 2040s FAST Packs were temporarily on their way out... due to 3rd Generation active stealth systems being unavailable at the time. That shifted the emphasis back to passive stealth in that period, giving rise to VFs that generally didn't use FAST packs like the VF-17, VF-19, and VF-22. They didn't start to make a comeback until ~2057.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:19 am
  

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Seto wrote:
As we're talking about the Robotech RPG in particular, we can say with at least reasonable confidence that the Invid protoculture sensors only detect some sort of a unique radiation produced by active protoculture power sources. The one reference made to protoculture-based circuitry doesn't carry any mention of it being visible to Invid sensors when active/energized... but anything that's using protoculture as its means of generating energy, even mutants consuming the raw fuel for a boost, is a detectable emission source.

Whether that's necessarily true for the animated continuity is another matter... but my suspicion would be that protoculture circuitry is similarly invisible, given that in every instance we see Invid sensor outputs what we're shown producing a reaction was only ever the engines.

But the 2E RPG DOES state that Veritech Fighters (1st gen, likely a generic reference to), old Destroids, and mecha from the ASC are detectable. Now that can mean one of two things when taken with later statements either: (1) these hydrogen fuel based designs emit a signature associated with PC or (2) these mecha utilize PC in some other fashion that gives them away or (3) we play the recton card (I'm not inclined toward it since I don't think its ever actually stated).

Given the H-90 is PC powered, and in an idle state (on, but not discharging shots) doesn't "drain shots" from sitting there in an on (unlike the battery on a cellphone, laptop, or tablet for ex). It appears there is some form of associated active PC emission even when not logically "drawing power". But if we assume some type of PC "power source" for idle operations (one that doesn't require a life expectancy to be noted), it could appear elsewhere as an APU. Which could mean ASC/RDF mecha in question have PC emissions from an APU like source.

The Invid also speculate that a PC signal from the Bio-Emulator might be artificial in nature. Now we can disagree all we want about what the Bio-Emulator is doing, but the dialogue bit would seem to allow for the possibility of "artificial" PC signatures.

Seto wrote:
What I was talking about when I made the point was the lack of the capability and the implications of cutting across to a comparable date in Macross was that it wasn't a capability that was available on a production basis in current-gen fighters for the Robotech universe.

I'm sure Dr. Lang or whoever could knock up a prototype that could do it, no sweat, but by in large we're looking at production models.

I guess the question isn't really one of raw technological capability, but rather setting a technical requirement is what we actually see in RT. Which makes the change a lot easier to explain, the whole Beta approach was deemed to costly/complex/reliable/etc. For an augmentation system the Beta is pretty expensive for what it actually delivers (and what it can do solo that is not available). Of the three hookup operations we see it has a 66% success rate, which might be to low to be considered reliable (decoupling has a 100% success rate AFAIK). It also adds complexity to both units since you have to add hardware for the connection (and space could be better utilized).

Seto wrote:
Mostly an efficiency thing, if we're looking to the more detailed Macross spec... the booster system's about getting there fast, without using a lot of internally stored fuel. (One of the biggest problems with the VF-1 was its internal fuel capacity was a little on the small side, giving it a very limited operating range in vacuum.) Later designs addressed the problem by the simple expedient of engines better suited to higher altitudes (e.g. the VF-4) or simply more efficient engines in general.

Basically what you are saying is that the VF-1 is not capable of flying some launch profiles without the booster.

Theoretically you could launch a rocket from any place and at any time, however the most efficient use for a desired profile might require o ne to wait and launch within a specific time frame from a certain location.

Seto wrote:
From the RPG standpoint, it's there but it's kinda useless... since the VF-1 is the only one that can carry long-range munitions for reasons unclear.

From the RPG standpoint perhaps, but LRM don't seem to have much of a role. I would point out that AotSC AND the RT.com Infopedia mention those very same hardpoints can be configured to carry Long Range Missiles. So a GM looking for more "accurate" stats, could in theory give the Beta LRM.

Seto wrote:
Ironically, if it cut over to Macross in the 2040s FAST Packs were temporarily on their way out... due to 3rd Generation active stealth systems being unavailable at the time. That shifted the emphasis back to passive stealth in that period, giving rise to VFs that generally didn't use FAST packs like the VF-17, VF-19, and VF-22. They didn't start to make a comeback until ~2057.


Well in RT one could say FAST Packs where out from the 2020s-40-ish. While the Beta can be thought of as a FAST PACK, its approach is so radically different one could say the in RT (or RT designs) for a while they where looking at other approaches to augmentation. One that given two incarnations was the preferred approach over bolt-on systems.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:51 pm
  

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ShadowLogan wrote:
But the 2E RPG DOES state that Veritech Fighters (1st gen, likely a generic reference to), old Destroids, and mecha from the ASC are detectable.

Yes, it does... but you keep skipping over the all-important reason why every time this comes up.

The rule in question doesn't list those vehicles arbitrarily or without qualification, it explicitly lists them as examples of mecha that are protoculture-powered. The Invid protoculture sensors are stated to detect active protoculture power sources in vehicles, mecha, devices, etc. At the time the core book was written, it was still taken as read that everything in Robotech was using protoculture as its power source. That changed, starting in the Macross Saga sourcebook.

If mecha that are not protoculture-powered are invisible to the Invid (as affirmed in the New Gen-era sourcebooks), that would tend to make Macross mecha game-breakers... even more than the Macross Saga ones already were.


ShadowLogan wrote:
(3) we play the recton card (I'm not inclined toward it since I don't think its ever actually stated).

That's literally the only valid "card" to play, given available evidence.

The core book says those mecha are powered by protoculture, and as a result of that are detectable. Their stats in their respective sourcebooks say they are not powered by protoculture. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a retcon.

Both Tommy Yune and Jason Marker danced around the actual word "retcon" as it was never canonically stated what powered those mecha until Tommy's "Word of God" as creative director made it fusion... but there's enough said by both on the subject that there's really no doubt in the matter. I'm pretty sure you were there with me for Tommy's open discussion about it when I ripped into him over the whole SLMH idea and his interpretation of "based on a reactor design".


ShadowLogan wrote:
Given the H-90 is PC powered, and in an idle state (on, but not discharging shots) doesn't "drain shots" from sitting there in an on (unlike the battery on a cellphone, laptop, or tablet for ex). It appears there is some form of associated active PC emission even when not logically "drawing power".

You're assuming that power consumption is a boolean condition... that's virtually never the case in electronics. We know the H90 has three basic stats: Discharge (firing), Standby (not firing), and Off. The common sense explanation is that the H90 is detectable in its standby state as a result of a negligible parasitic load that the weapon's standby mode incurs to power its onboard electronics and maintain the weapon in a ready-to-fire state.

If there wasn't a parasitic load of that nature, the gun wouldn't need an Off state, only a trigger safety. Off would, instead, be removal of the power cells.

It's no different from how a laptop's CMOS battery imposes a trivial parasitic load on the main battery to keep itself fully charged. The amount of energy consumed that way is so small the end user will never notice a degradation in performance, but the drain is still present.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Which could mean ASC/RDF mecha in question have PC emissions from an APU like source.

No such device is listed in the stats... and vehicles/mecha with APUs do have them listed in their stats.


ShadowLogan wrote:
The Invid also speculate that a PC signal from the Bio-Emulator might be artificial in nature. Now we can disagree all we want about what the Bio-Emulator is doing, but the dialogue bit would seem to allow for the possibility of "artificial" PC signatures.

The bio-emulator is literally powered by a protoculture cell almost as big as it is, which would put the context of "artificial" into question. (Potentially that it was amplifying the emissions and/or tweaking them to mimic a much larger power source.)


ShadowLogan wrote:
I guess the question isn't really one of raw technological capability, but rather setting a technical requirement is what we actually see in RT.

Yup.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Basically what you are saying is that the VF-1 is not capable of flying some launch profiles without the booster.

Sort of... just stick "in a fuel-efficient manner" between "profiles" and "booster".

Because the thermonuclear reaction turbine engine switches over from a super-efficient thermonuclear heat-exchange turbine to essentially a hybrid of plasma rocket and ion engine as atmosphere becomes too thin for normal air-breathing propulsion, fuel consumption spikes dramatically. On the VF-1, the rate of fuel consumption jumps from approximately 0.28mL/s (per engine) at its maximum output in atmosphere to approximately 1,175mL/s at maximum output in space.

Due to the VF-1's aggressively limited onboard fuel capacity, having the booster made surface-to-orbit operations more flexible by getting them up there without using their internally-stored fuel. There are other options, like a variety of drop tanks and conformal fuel tanks or the sub-intake fuel bladders, but a big rocket does the same job a LOT faster, leaving more of that fuel for orbital maneuvers.


ShadowLogan wrote:
From the RPG standpoint perhaps, but LRM don't seem to have much of a role.

Not in Robotech, but in Macross... look out here come the nukes.

That's one of the real problems with bridging the two settings. Robotech just kinda forgets that weapons like that are a thing after the Macross Saga. In later Macross stories, they aren't exactly shy about spamming consequence-free thermonuclear reaction warheads when things get serious.


ShadowLogan wrote:
Well in RT one could say FAST Packs where out from the 2020s-40-ish. While the Beta can be thought of as a FAST PACK, its approach is so radically different one could say the in RT (or RT designs) for a while they where looking at other approaches to augmentation. One that given two incarnations was the preferred approach over bolt-on systems.

The Beta, especially the Super Beta, ironically echos a lot of the design ethos of the Valkyrie II's Super Armed Pack. Heavy pack integration, a big honking anti-ship gun, and a boatload of extra fuel.

On the whole, Macross II really is a better fit for this kind of thing. There's less of the sufficiently advanced aspect to the Protoculture, the UN Government's somewhat less happy-clappy after having to fight a half-dozen Zentradi Army and Meltrandi Army main fleets, and on the whole their defensive ethos is more in line with the original Macross series with heavy usage of augmentation parts for space, lightly-equipped fighters for atmosphere, and destroids for ground service. It's a lot easier to make it mesh, thanks to details like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:55 pm
  

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I think an easier way to blend the two realities together is simple enough, the SDF-1 is a Super Dimensional Fortress and in RT they had the SDF-1 screw up a fold to just outside of Pluto and the fold system going bye-bye as well as the entire zent fleet fold to earth near the end of the macross saga who's to say that all those folds didn't weaken the dimensional walls between the two realities so with that said the easiest way to link the two realities is a dimensional breech between the two realities that are not entirely stable that allows for limited contact at different times between the entirety of the two series.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:21 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
dataweaver wrote:
Seto Kaiba wrote:
I've already given a number of examples in previous posts, but if you wish I will work up a list for you.

Please.

With respect to Robotech landing on the "dystopia and militant xenophobia" side of things... the list will be a post of its own, it's kinda BIG.

Okay, I haven't forgotten about this one... so here we go.

As far as Robotech steadily trending towards a dystopian setting with some fairly strong themes of (often literally) militant xenophobia... well, I'm going to try to do the list in rough order of severity. I'm going to leave the Macross Saga out of it, since we both noted earlier that it hasn't changed THAT much thematically:
  • Every major spacefaring culture in the galaxy, save perhaps one, is at war over possession of a rare and exotic fuel source that is absolutely crucial to all forms of high technology. Nobody seems interested in developing any alternatives, and it doesn't appear anyone even considered having a backup plan when adopting it.
  • The Robotech universe in general is one of seemingly unceasing warfare, often with genocidal intent. In the 35 years humanity has possessed fold-capable ships, they've been in five interstellar wars. Humanity was not involved in one or more interstellar wars in only 8 of those 35 years.
  • Many of the wars in the setting are prosecuted with genocidal intent. Three of the five wars humanity has been in have been against foes bent on genocide (the Zentradi, Invid Regent, and Haydonites), two of whom almost succeeded. There have been at least three concerted efforts to exterminate the Invid species in the setting, the Haydonites destroyed their first homeworld, the Tirolians the second, and Humans very nearly did the third (and their own people along with it). In the old Sentinels comics, the Invid Regent had genocidal designs on the Tirolians and possibly other species as well.
  • Per Word of God, the United Earth Government is a sham after the end of the First Robotech War. It has no real power, and its main roles are to rubber stamp decrees issued by the UEF military junta who make all the actual decisions and to keep the plebs out of the brass's hair (or lack thereof).
    • Not helping matters, the de facto ruler of Earth in the 2020s and beyond (Eli Leonard) is a highly-placed terrorist deep cover agent who masterminded the undermining of Earth's defense program by orchestrating attacks on VF-1 project test flights, the hijacking of ARMD-01, and the use of reflex warheads to destroy Antarctic Base and its Grand Cannon as well as an attempt to do the same to the main military HQ in Alaska and Macross Island.
    • Not helping THAT, testimony from his closest subordinate and partner in crime indicates that he was also a rabid xenophobe and human-supremacist who felt that no alien could be trusted.
    • To put the cherry on it, even the UEEF considered the UEDF-led UEG suspect to the extent that Dr. Lang designed and built a camouflage android to spy on it for the UEEF.
  • The United Earth Forces brass who were the de facto rulers of humanity frequently make hideously shortsighted, destructive judgement calls:
    • Major General Hunter, Admiral Hunter, and General Reinhardt collectively were responsible for stripping Earth of most of its strategic assets to send them out into deep space on a mission of indefinite scope with no oversight. This left Earth very dangerously exposed to alien attack, a possibility they dismissed.
    • Brigadier General Edwards spent pretty much the entire 22 year span of the Pioneer Mission wasting time and valuable resources trying to get revenge on his own superior officers. Somehow, nobody noticed anything was up until he quite literally started shooting, sided with the enemy, blew up the fleet flagship, killed Lynn Kyle, caused Lisa to have a miscarriage, and wiped out Breetai and the last few remaining Zentradi while backstabbing the Regent. He capped this by then destroying the Tokugawa, plotting to turn the surviving troops into mutant monsters under his control, and using a hijacked inorganic army to destroy the UEEF.
    • Edwards also was aware of Invid protoculture sensor technology for some time before his coup attempt, and denied that intelligence to the UEEF, costing who knows how many lives in the process.
    • Supreme Commander Leonard repeatedly refused to authorize any manner of diplomatic overtures to the Robotech Masters, despite his forces being completely outmatched at every turn and stuck on the defensive for the entire war. Officers who questioned this decision or pressed the point were sent on suicide missions.
    • General Reinhardt (II) and Admiral Hunter approved a plan to nuke Earth to cinders if they were unable to liberate it from the Haydonites, apparently being entirely fine with killing millions of their own people in an Exterminatus to deny Earth to the Invid.
    • Admiral Hunter authorized the Haydonites to disseminate shadow technology throughout his forces, even over the protests from his own staff that there were irreconcilable and suspect aspects of the technology, based on blind trust in the Haydonite ambassador who couldn't have been telegraphing evil intent harder if he'd started calling him "Young Skywalker".
    • Y'know what, there are too many "Rick Hunter is a moron" entries... I'm gonna let that one rest. The man at the apex of the United Earth Forces military is a total drooling moron.
  • The United Earth Forces rank and file show some pretty clear xenophobia on their own too. It's apparently not seen as gauche to go on a rant about how it'd be great to exterminate all aliens, and even being associated with an alien defector who was largely responsible for humanity's "victory" in the Third Robotech War merited an instant arrest and confinement.
  • Per Word of God, scientific and technological development is largely stagnant after the First Robotech War. With everything based on a poorly-understood alien technology that only a few "military scientists" are permitted to study, increasing amounts of knowledge are lost every time one of them snuffs it.
  • Society in general has basically collapsed as of 2030.
    • The United Earth Government is gone, wiped out in the Second Robotech War along with the military junta who were pulling its strings.
    • The population of Earth itself were all enslaved by the Invid, with some areas regressing so far as to become half-feral jungle dwellers, live in lawless towns run by violent gangs, or squat in the ruins of their destroyed cities and everyone living in perpetual fear of an alien occupation force that doesn't even see humans as an intelligent species.
    • Word of God rules out the idea of a civilian society in deep space as well. The United Earth Expeditionary Force recruits are the children of its soldiers, and they have no alternative career path besides joining the military. "Free" humanity are basically Zentradi Lite. The one civilian who went into deep space with the UEEF was a stowaway who snuck aboard to stalk her ex, wrecks a marriage, and gets abducted and tortured by HER stalker.
  • Alien societies aren't really any better off than humans:
    • The Zentradi had an autocratic society under their supreme commander, and had no culture of their own. Even killing their own side in friendly fire "Accidents" apparently merited only a "boys will be boys", and soldiers who refuse to follow orders were to be destroyed. They're extinct.
    • The Tirolians had a technocracy ruled by the Robotech Masters, who used the power of protoculture to oppress every other species they came across, tried to destroy the Invid in order to solidify their hold on protoculture, and abandoned their own society to crumble in their search for more of it to sustain their empire and continue living as virtual immortals. They were such horrible people that the best Tirolian scientist sent the last surviving source of protoculture on a blind jump into deep space to shut them down. Their civilization collapsed and is now being propped up by humanity.
    • The Invid have a hive mind with limited individuality, but their leaders are a raging psychopath who sees all non-Invid as inferior vermin and oppresses other alien species seemingly because he gets off on it. The Regess is sociopathic eugenicist who seeks to advance the evolution of her own species above all else, and isn't above creating twisted abominations of science from unwilling sentient subjects.
    • The Haydonites try to murder everyone who uses protoculture... nobody knows why, but they're chronic backstabbers.


Compared to that, the Macross universe is practically Mister Rogers Neighborhood...

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:14 pm
  

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Kargan3033 wrote:
I think an easier way to blend the two realities together is simple enough, the SDF-1 is a Super Dimensional Fortress and in RT they had the SDF-1 screw up a fold to just outside of Pluto and the fold system going bye-bye as well as the entire zent fleet fold to earth near the end of the macross saga who's to say that all those folds didn't weaken the dimensional walls between the two realities so with that said the easiest way to link the two realities is a dimensional breech between the two realities that are not entirely stable that allows for limited contact at different times between the entirety of the two series.

Granted, that is a simple approach... but, by definition, what you're talking about isn't blending the two (three) universes into a single cohesive setting and chronology. That's just a crossover. The two (or more) universes used for a story like that are still fundamentally separate worlds with their own respective histories and rules, it's just some macguffin is allowing travel between those separate worlds.

It's a lot easier to tell a story like that because a GM's cup runneth over with potential causes thanks to this kind of thing being one of the most overused tropes in fiction. There are whole video game franchises devoted to nothing but this premise.[1].


[1] e.g. Super Robot Wars Another Century's Episode, Project X Zone, Warriors Orochi, the Capcom Versus series, Kingdom Hearts, Super Smash Bros.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:23 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
[
[*] Every major spacefaring culture in the galaxy, save perhaps one, is at war over possession of a rare and exotic fuel source that is absolutely crucial to all forms of high technology. Nobody seems interested in developing any alternatives, and it doesn't appear anyone even considered having a backup plan when adopting it.
Compared to that, the Macross universe is practically Mister Rogers Neighborhood...


And that's often because the people who don't have it figure they need it to bootstrap their way into the big leagues with those who DO have it, and once they have it, they're not given the time to develop alternatives because they're too busy fighting off the people who also have it and want it exclusively to themselves, want it for themselves period, or feel the possessors are going to abuse it, or they're going after others who have it or MIGHT have it and therefore pose a threat to them.
It's the meth lab of sci-fi power sources. Robotech is Breaking Bad with mecha.

No, Macross isn't Mister Rogers...with Macross Delta, it's more like Highschool Musical.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:30 am
  

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taalismn wrote:
And that's often because the people who don't have it figure they need it to bootstrap their way into the big leagues with those who DO have it, [...]

But, as far as we know, that has never happened. The Invid, IIRC, only used their flower of life for food. The Robotech Masters developed it into a power source, but humanity had no idea of knowing what the big leagues even were until after they'd reverse-engineered it all.



taalismn wrote:
It's the meth lab of sci-fi power sources. Robotech is Breaking Bad with mecha.

Considering everyone's fighting over fuel in a hellish dystopia, I'd argue it's more on the order of Mad Max in Space.



taalismn wrote:
No, Macross isn't Mister Rogers...with Macross Delta, it's more like Highschool Musical.

Nah, every series basically ends with humanity asking if the hostile power du jour wants to be its neighbor.

You have to admit, Macross's highly optimistic worldview makes for a sharp contrast to Robotech's dystopian grimdarkness.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:49 pm
  

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@Seto

Re: APU
I agree no device is listed, but it could be taken as implied given the conflicting text. I'd say that such a PC powered component is likely low draw enough to count for the sensor, but isn't otherwise noteworthy (like how long the PC supply lasts, or is even present).

And it isn't like Palladium (or RT.com/AotSC) don't omitt information we regard as useful (thrust or even just t/w values, mass/volume reaction/fuel supplies, delta-v, etc). Just look at some of the conventional ground vehicles with their flex-fuel engines, they likely have various sub-components(battery, alternator, coolant resivour, etc) that aren't explictly mentioned, but likely to be taken as present but being unnoteworthy.

I would also add that per From the Stars the Reflex Furnance (which is PC fueled) is part of the VF-1 systems, they power the fusion turbines. Vince tells Roy (Chapter 3, pg12) "... since we have nnot yet outfitted her with Dr. Lang's new Reflex Powerplants." in relation to the prototype. During the simulator in Chapter 4 Lang states "start den reflexmicroreactor", the next pannel (next page) is in german (mentions fusion and the reflex reactor). So we have evidence that the RPG doesn't list everything in terms of devices.

Re: H-90
I do not see the H-90 as boolean, which is the reason why I bring it up. Game Mechanically speaking we have an example of a PC power draw w/o need for noting its impact on payload. If a PC leaves an H-90 on standby as a lure, how long before the energy is exhausted in a full charged clip (or even a single shot) might be good to know.

Re: Bio-Emulator
As I said we can disagree about its workings (which IMHO isn't really relevant here), but that isn't the main point I was going for. We know from the dialogue related to it that the possibility exists for a "false positive" signal, it doesn't really mater how likely it is being viewed in-universe we have confirmation that it is theoretically possible. Which means if someone wanted to adapt more SDF:M properties into RT, they might need to justify the TRO's being visible to the Invid, which means either they use PC or they inadvertantly give a false positive.

Re: LRM
Even in RT's TMS arc, the use of LRMs for anti-mecha role is rarely (if ever) actually used. So it isn't out of place in later arcs in RT, though with later SDF:Ms it shows the difference of thinking that evolved in how weapons are employed.

Re: Best Fit
Macross 2 does have the advantage of ready made stats (flawed they might be) so it would likely be the easiest to adapt. Though depending on how much work one wants to put intoward integration and personal preferences, it might be better to stick with a single SDF:M arc/au than try to make it all work with RT.


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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:26 pm
  

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
slade the sniper wrote:
My goal would be to have all the stuff happen in the same universe.

Doable, or stupid?

Outside of their shared animation, the two (three) settings in question are largely incompatible.



slade the sniper wrote:
What issues would I have?

IMO, the biggest issue you would have is that some of the technologies available in the Macross universe completely undercut several key plot points in the main (animated) Robotech continuity.

Having the Macross universe's thermonuclear reaction overtechnology in the Robotech setting would invalidate Robotech's entire plot. Protoculture is a source of neverending conflict in the Robotech universe because there's no viable alternative energy source that can do what protoculture does... at least, as far as everyone who isn't a Haydonite knows. Even having an alternative is a prospect that undermines the Masters Saga, New Generation, and Shadow Saga plots. Having an alternative power technology that outclasses protoculture with NONE of the drawbacks would be a sucker punch that would kill Robotech's side of the story stone dead. Not to mention all Macross universe mecha would be utterly invisible to the Invid as they don't use Protoculture, and would be inoffensive to the Haydonites for the same reason.

The prevalence of stealth technology in Macross would be another problem, specifically for the New Generation and Shadow Saga. VFs in Macross have been using both passive and active stealth technologies from the get-go, and the countermeasures against active and passive stealth have also been present for a similarly long time. The introduction of radar stealth in 2043 in Robotech was a huge coup for T.R. Edwards and Ghost squadron, enabling them to basically spank the UEEF's best with utter impunity. Being invisible to radar left the UEEF unable to defend itself against Ghost squadron, their missiles couldn't lock on, they had to aim their guns manually, etc. Macross's VFs would have no trouble in taking a shadow fighter to pieces, as the standard guidance package on missiles uses at least two, more commonly three, guidance technologies including optical seekers.

You'd also have a lot of issues with conflicting histories, characters being alive in one version and dead in the other, or having radically different postwar roles that are mutually incompatible.

For instance, in the Macross universe humanity is an engineered species that was created by the same alien race (the Protoculture) who created the Zentradi. In Robotech, the near-identical genetics are chalked up to coincidence. The ancient Protoculture in Macross is extinct, having destroyed itself first with a civil war and then with a war against some of its creations gone rogue. The Robotech Masters are still around in Robotech, but are nowhere near as advanced as the "sufficiently advanced" Protoculture whose technology borders on magic.

You'd, of course, have some issues stemming from the differences between how the original Macross series ended and Robotech's Macross Saga ended:
  • Macross ends in 2012, Robotech's Macross Saga in 2014.
  • The SDF-1 and SDF-2 are destroyed in Robotech, and Macross City is later abandoned. In Macross, the SDF-1 is only damaged and repairs take less than nine months, the SDF-2 is launched in 2012 as the first long distance emigrant ship, and Macross City is still the capital of Earth and the New UN Gov't decades later.
  • The SDF-1's entire bridge crew, except Lisa, dies in Robotech. None of them die in Macross. Global and Kim in particular remain quite influential, with Global retiring and going into government and Kim becoming a general and commander of Earth's orbital defenses.
  • Robotech's Rick and Lisa are in charge of all military and diplomatic functions basically from 2022 on in Robotech. In Macross, their counterparts Hikaru and Misa vanished in 2016 and haven't been heard from since.
  • Max and Miriya are background characters on the SDF-3 in Robotech. They collectively have their own emigrant fleet of over 1 million people in Macross.
  • Breetai in Robotech is one of Rick's subordinates. In Macross, he's the commander in chief of the New UN Forces starting in 2016. Exedore in RT is an advisor along on the SDF-3's mission and is killed in 2044. Exsedol in Macross is still very much alive in 2045, and is Max's advisor.
  • Robotechs UEG never quite gets around to space colonization. Their first generation of colony ships are mothballed as insufficiently defensible and are only built after the second Robotech War (2029-2030). Their second gen colony ships are only just coming off the line in 2044, and are destroyed before they can ever be used. In Macross, humanity has its first extrasolar colony established in 2013, and by 2027 they've started colonizing planets on the far side of the galaxy (e.g. Windermere IV, discovered by SDF-5 Megaroad-04 in 2027.) By 2042 they have over 155 colony fleets launched.
  • In Robotech, the SDF-2's mission was a preemptive strike on the home world of the Robotech Masters. In Macross, it was originally build as a 2nd Macross-class ship for planetary defense, but was converted into the first long-range emigrant ship.
  • You'd have a lot of SDF-related problems. The SDF- designation was used in Macross for the Megaroad-class ships, and a variant thereof was used for the mass production Macross-class ships... so in addition to having up to SDF-31 and SDFN-12 kicking around from the Macross side, you'd also have conflicts like Robotech's SDF-3 Pioneer having the same designation as SDF-3 Megaroad-02 and SDFN-3 (name unknown).
  • You'd also have some problems with conflicting designations. Macross's setting has its own VF-6, where in Robotech the VF/A-6 is the Alpha fighter. It also becomes an issue with 9, VF-9 being a light atmospheric fighter in [i]Macross and the Beta fighter-bomber in Robotech.

I could go on, but you get the idea.



slade the sniper wrote:
So, if I wanted to "combine" them could I just sort of have a sort of three tiered, but concurrent settings?
1. Earth stuff (Macross/Robotech, Southern Cross, Invid Invasion, Return of the Masters, Macross II)

Macross II exists as a parallel world story from the rest of Macross, so that'd complicate matters a LOT... you'd also run into complications as a result of some of the above-listed items like Macross City being abandoned and buried in Robotech but a functioning planetary and galactic capital in Macross's setting or the Zentradi's creators having to simultaneously be alive and extinct, and Earth in the 2040s being simultaneously a barren crater-pocked radioactive wasteland with the best technology in the galaxy and a verdant world repressed by the Invid until it reached a 19th century tech level in places.


slade the sniper wrote:
2. Sentinels (Sentinels, Shadow Chronicles)

You'd end up with a pretty significant chronological problem, as these take place concurrently (in terms of year) with major events in the Macross universes... Hikaru/Rick and Misa/Lisa being simultaneously vanished and leading a massive military expedition, Max and Milia/Miriya being special forces pilots thwarting an extremely well-equipped Zentradi terrorist group and being stranded out in the arse end of nowhere on the SDF-3, the adoption of two different main fighters which have exponentially different levels of capability (Macross's VF-19 and Robotech's VF/A-6X), etc.



slade the sniper wrote:
3. Space Stuff (Immigrant Fleets launched and subsequently all of the Macross series...)

Would run afoul of the non-existence of extrasolar colonization in Robotech (with exactly ONE civilian in space with the UEEF and no colony ships c.2044) at the same point in time in Macross where over 155 emigrant fleets have been launched, some with populations as huge as 10 million. Several of those individual fleets dwarf the entire UEEF in terms of number of ships. (Conservative estimates of the fleet in RTSC put it at just shy of 400, with generous estimates around twice that. Macross Valiant's escort contingent was over 900 ships. A medium-sized fleet is almost 200, and there are dozens of those.)



slade the sniper wrote:
This would allow for all of the source materials to be "used" without having too much difficulty?

If you're devoted to trying to make it work, it sounds like a good way to give yourself a migraine.


You say it is difficult but it is easy you use all of both and RT trumps MC when it comes to conflicts

MC runs on a different power source... no it doesn't
MC had stealth since the beginning... no it didn't
MC has so and so alive in this episode... nope
and so on... not difficult at all
But I really wanted so and so alive but they killed them off in RT and MC shows them... gee guess they used some RT Master cloning tech brought back with the Sentinels.

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 Post subject: Re: Robotech + Macross??
Unread postPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:56 pm
  

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I see Seto is continuing to spread his outright lies about the existence of colonies in robotech. yes there are colonies in robotech. they were one of the UEEF's primary objectives, their safety was the main reason the UEEF was willing to consider the use of the Nuetron-S warheads against the invid at reflex point in 2044, and as the art of robotech the shadow chronicles states, the UEEF conducted multiple colony planting operations.

now, robotech clearly wasn't using the macross 7/frontier/Delta approach where you had flying cities roaming the galaxy looking for a home (which was much closer to the generation ship approach, just able to travel much farther due to having FTL instead of being stuck at sublight). the UEEF approach, as evidenced by the design of their Angel Class colony ships and later their Ark Angel Class, was much more focused.. find the world first, then send a ship or ships there loaded down with enough people and cargo to build the colony from the ground up. Think Alien: Covenant or the Conestoga from Star Trek:Enterprise.

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