Musings on Tattoo Magic

[Razorwing]

The relatively recent release of Secrets of the Atlanteans has gotten me thinking of Tattoo Magic once more... and the many questions I still have about it. While I don't know if this new book will answer any of the questions I have (and will post further down), as I am still waiting for my LGS to send my copy to me... I figured I would post some of these questions and musings I have come up with over the years since WB2 first introduced this magic (most of which are used as ground rules for the games I play and run).

First the musings and house rules (not sure if any official ruling has been made on these).

1) All T-Men that gain more than 6 Tattoos are Supernatural Creatures... in that the magic of the tattoos becomes almost second nature to them. This means they use these Tattoos at the normal PPE costs (rather than the double cost for having 6 or less) and become MDC creatures. However... they do not gain Supernatural Strength or Endurance... and only recover MDC at the rate they recovered HP before hand. Physical Skills that improve SDC do NOT add to the MDC of T-Men as it is the Tattoos that provide the supernatural durability... not the character's physical training. In short... magics and psionics that detect supernatural creatures will detect a T-Man, but their supernatural "status" is fairly limited. Not even Monster Shaping Tattoos provide Supernatural PS... though it will increase an individual's PS to the maximum level such a creature may have (though only ordinary PS)... which, along with the 800 MDC maximum, may reveal such individuals as being fakes... and why many who use MS Tattoos also acquire Power Tattoos to mimic the abilities of the monsters they take the shape of (such as Chain with a Broken Link to provide Supernatural Strength). Only Chiang-Ku Dragons who naturally possess Supernatural PS will maintain that strength... all others who can use Magic Tattoos retain their normal levels of Strength for their species.

2) Speaking of Monster Shaping Tattoos, the few Tattoos that do provide MDC level healing can be used to repair any MDC damage they take while in a monster form... and can mimic the bio-regeneration many Monsters possess. The same is true of SDC healing Tattoos for MS Tattoos of SDC monsters (such as Ogres and some giants).

3) True Atlanteans and Chiang-Ku Dragons are the only races that can activate Tattoos at normal cost even if they have 6 or fewer Tattoos. For the Atlanteans, this is due to the fact that they receive their Tattoos of Heritage at a very young age (5 or 6 years old) and receive instruction in the use of these Tattoos as part of their education. For the Chiang-Ku, this is due to the fact that they are the creators of the magic and its knowledge and secrets are passed down as racial memory (of a sort).

4) On SDC worlds, T-Men see their MDC become SDC/HP (roughly 90% is SDC while 10% is effectively HP for effects that require HP damage or bypass SDC). Monsters, Magic Weapons and Power Tattoos will see their damage reduced to SDC levels. In the case of Flaming Weapons, they do triple the normal damage for their type (and double that if wrapped in a serpent to dragons and other reptilian monsters). This is to avoid the Weapons Dripping Blood tattoos being effectively more powerful for a lower PPE cost on these worlds. PPE costs remain the same.

5) Tattoos still need to be touched to activate if the T-Man is under 7th level, but can be touched through light clothing (including magically strengthened cloth and soft leather). Any armor more stiff than soft leather will be too thick for a T-Man to activate a Tattoo through. Tattoos can be activated through armor or protection created through pure magic (such as with some Power Tattoos and Armor of Ithan and similar magic spells). Sunaj Assassins receive specialized training to learn how to activate their Tattoos without the need to touch them... allowing them to wear the full body armor that disguises their Atlantean appearance and maintains their deception (not all members of Clan Aerihman receive this training... only those who are trained to be one of the Sunaj OCCs receive this training... all others must wait until they are level 7 to gain this skill; remember, while all Sunaj are members of Clan Aerihman, not all members of Clan Aerihman are Sunaj).

These may be assumptions on the part of myself and the groups I play with, but they make the use of these Tattoos fairly standard. They may change once receive the Secrets of the Atlantean book... but for now, this is the way I interpret the magic (not looking for anyone to argue these points, though if anyone wants to point to Official rulings that may conflict with these assumptions... please inform me where to find such rulings).

Now on to some of the questions I've wondered about over the years.

1) Are Magic Tattoos in full color? The only color picture of an individual with a Magic Tattoo that I could find is on the cover of WB21... the heart with wings on the woman's shoulder... and it seems to be done in bluish ink. Not even sure if that is a Magic Tattoo or just a tattoo, but since it is a book on Atlantis, it stand to reason that it may be magic. For a while now I have gone with the assumption that most Magic Tattoos are done in blues, whites and blacks... with all the shades those three colors can provide, but i can't find a definitive "official" word if this is right or wrong (hoping SotA will shed some light on this). Full color tattoos would also make it a little easier for T-Men to hide as their tattoos wouldn't look that different from normal tattoos (still register as magic, yes, but their appearance wouldn't instantly mark someone as a T-Man).

2) While all items (weapons, animals and monsters) created by the tattoos are basically magical constructs, do they look like real items they are depicted as? I know that it is mentioned that Animals and Monsters appear as dull grey images of their actual forms (which for thematic purposes for our games we changed to the blue-white appearance of raw PPE as seen in ley lines), but what of weapons... do they look like they are made of metal or magic? Again, for our games, my players and I have defaulted to the blue-white appearance... with Flaming Weapons radiating a noticeable glow beyond their actual form).

3) Does the different features for a magical weapon count as separate tattoos? For example... if I wanted Crossed Flaming Winged Long Swords with a Coiled Serpent... would this count as 1 Tattoo or 4 tattoos (1 for being Crossed, 1 for Flaming, 1 for Wings and 1 for the Serpent). For the games I run and have played in, it was considered 1 Tattoo (as the rule that no tattoos can be identical would prevent a repeat of such a tattoo... not to mention the PPE cost and the 6 tattoo active at a time would further limit exploitation of such tattoos).

4) As mentioned before, Animal and Monster Tattoos appear as dull grey images of the creatures they depict when activated, but does this also apply to Monster Shaping Tattoos? Since Monster Shaping Tattoos seem to be primarily used as a means of infiltration of monstrous communities, it would suggest that the coloration of the form the tattoo creates should be normal to the creature depicted. Disguising oneself as a monster is fairly ineffective if one isn't a color commonly found with such creatures, yes? This also plays into Question 1 as it would seem that the tattoo would need to be colored appropriately for the disguise to be made in such a way... thus requiring a full color palate to accurately create such a tattoo.

I think this is all for this post... hopefully I will have the Secrets of the Alanteans soon to see if any of the assumptions i have are addressed (right or wrong on my part) and see if these questions are answered officially. As I said before... if anyone knows where any Official rulings on any of the above points can be found, please let me know where. Please refrain from arguing points without such references as I will assume that it is merely "your" interpretation for "your" games... even if you claim it is the general consensus here (unless there is an official ruling by Palladium Books... it is merely an opinion, regardless of how popular it may be). Sorry if this last part sound harsh or antisocial... but I am really only looking for official information... not personal opinion or the way others think it should be done (and I am not trying to force others to abide by my own opinions on the matter). Sorry if this offends anyone.

[Mack]

Wait, where do you see that TAs and ChiangKu don’t pay double the PPE cost when they have six or less tattoos?

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Also, Undead Slayers and Monster Shapers become supenratual creatures with supernatural attributes (confirmed by Galahad’s write up in WB3); T-Men, Maxi-men, Monster Men, and T-Archers become MDC beings but remain mortal. (Unless this is superceded by Secrets; i dont have that book.)

Edit - my theory here is that this is a feature of True Atlantean T-men, as Undead Slayer and Monster Shaper are the two TA-exclusive T-men. Secrets may confirm or change this.

[eliakon]

As of Secrets:
1) the statement is that "Due to the number of magic tattoos, they are considered supernatural beings with Supernatural P.S. and P.E., so their physical attacks inflict M.D. and hurt supernatural beings and Mega-Damage creatures"
This is in every Tattoo class and superceeds the previous text in the previous books implying that this is now canon for ALL tattoo classes for anyone, not just Atlantians.

2) the text of the book clearly indicates that there are colors involved in tattoos Silver, Black, White, Orange, Green and Blue are all explicitly mentioned.

3) as per page 143 you must touch the image and skin itself to activate the image until level 7 or higher. IF you are a Tattooed Man. There is no provision provided for non Tattooed Men to gain this ability

4) On the question of PPE there are two answers. Answer one is in on Atlantis 85, that all tattoos cost double for anyone that is not a full tattooed man. Answer two though is that the SotA book does not seem to mention this at all and it is possible that this limitation was retconed out of existence. As I see it though it is more likely that this was simply an omission and the rule is still in effect as there is no explicit statement revoking it and simply not reprinting a rule does not invalidate it.

5) Monster Shaping tattoos are explicitly stated to give you the "Form and features" of the mimicked monster. And are flatly stated to allow you to look like a generic member of the race. Since you can not have the "features" of a "generic member" of a race with out having their coloration that seems to be a pretty clear indication that you do gain the coloration of the form. This is quite likely because unlike the animal or monster tattoo you are not animating a 'living' thing but creating an item that you wield.

6) on a follow up note, the fact that the monster shaping tattoo looks just like the monster, and that it is possible to create weapons made out of silver or wood, it would seem to follow that items at least do have the appearance of the replicated item itself, and it is only when the creation is animated as a 'living thing' that it is required to be the featureless grey ectoplasm. But that is just an inference from known canon and not AFAIK explicitly stated in canon.

I hope this helps

[Razorwing]

As of Secrets:
1) the statement is that "Due to the number of magic tattoos, they are considered supernatural beings with Supernatural P.S. and P.E., so their physical attacks inflict M.D. and hurt supernatural beings and Mega-Damage creatures"
This is in every Tattoo class and superceeds the previous text in the previous books implying that this is now canon for ALL tattoo classes for anyone, not just Atlantians.

2) the text of the book clearly indicates that there are colors involved in tattoos Silver, Black, White, Orange, Green and Blue are all explicitly mentioned.

3) as per page 143 you must touch the image and skin itself to activate the image until level 7 or higher. IF you are a Tattooed Man. There is no provision provided for non Tattooed Men to gain this ability

4) On the question of PPE there are two answers. Answer one is in on Atlantis 85, that all tattoos cost double for anyone that is not a full tattooed man. Answer two though is that the SotA book does not seem to mention this at all and it is possible that this limitation was retconed out of existence. As I see it though it is more likely that this was simply an omission and the rule is still in effect as there is no explicit statement revoking it and simply not reprinting a rule does not invalidate it.

5) Monster Shaping tattoos are explicitly stated to give you the "Form and features" of the mimicked monster. And are flatly stated to allow you to look like a generic member of the race. Since you can not have the "features" of a "generic member" of a race with out having their coloration that seems to be a pretty clear indication that you do gain the coloration of the form. This is quite likely because unlike the animal or monster tattoo you are not animating a 'living' thing but creating an item that you wield.

6) on a follow up note, the fact that the monster shaping tattoo looks just like the monster, and that it is possible to create weapons made out of silver or wood, it would seem to follow that items at least do have the appearance of the replicated item itself, and it is only when the creation is animated as a 'living thing' that it is required to be the featureless grey ectoplasm. But that is just an inference from known canon and not AFAIK explicitly stated in canon.

I hope this helps

1) And this now makes the Chain with Broken Link Tattoo utterly useless. Why create a tattoo that provides SNPS when they already have it? The PPE cost for providing it to T-Men with 6 or less tattoos is too costly... and only adds 6 to the PS of those with more than 6 tattoos for 30 PPE is also too costly. This is one case were this retcon effectively makes a common tattoo completely useless for anyone to get... not a very good "official" ruling in my opinion... it would be like creating a Fireball spell that is cheaper to cast at a lower level that does more damage than the standard Fireball spell... why would anyone get this particular tatoo when it is either too costly to use or not worth the effect for the cost one pays? No... this is one case where I will continue to invoke Rule Zero and ignore the official word. Furthermore, I have to reject this is because this magic works on Atlanteans, who can not be transformed by ANY means (bio-wizardry, vampire or any other magic that transforms a being into something else DOES NOT WORK on Atlanteans), thus since Tattoos do work for Atlanteans, the change to MDC can NOT be an actual magical transformation. It will be the magic of the Tattoos that register as supernatural to magic and other means of detecting such... but the being themselves do not become Supernatural. This may be Rule Zero... but I feel it makes more sense. It wouldn't be the first time that Palladium has contradicted itself.

2) The texts of the books I currently have isn't so clear as to the colors used, so for some time the groups I played with went with a general blue and white seen with generic magic. It is nice to see that SotA does give more detail with this.

3) While I know that this touching tattoos is needed to activate them before 7th level, the armor of Sunaj Assassins would normally preclude this save for the most experienced... which, to be frank about it, makes little sense. There is no way that EVERY SINGLE Sunaj assassin is over 7th level... and making armor with holes for tattoos is ridiculous... it would compromise the very protection one seeks to gain with armor (even with moving plates). Thus it seems reasonable that Sunaj undergo specialized training to learn to activate their tattoos without the need to touch them at a much lower level. Since Sunaj are considered NPC villains, I see nothing overpowering with this ruling... it isn't something that Players are likely to learn and it helps keep those who play other T-Men wondering just who the Sunaj are... since only the most skilled and experienced T-Men can use tattoos in such manner (thus making one wonder if the Sunaj are using Magic Tattoos or not). Players must touch the tattoos until they are level 7... but Sunaj are not Player characters in most games... and only Sunaj classes get this training... not any other member of Clan Aerihman.

4) I gave the Atlanteans and Chiang-Ku Dragons this small benefit to use Tattoos at normal cost regardless of the number of tattoos because of their long history with Tattoo Magic (the two races are credited with the creation of the Magic)... and the fact that both races get Marks of Heritage (and thus have been using the magic since they were children/hatchlings). For all others, the cost is doubled if they have less than 7 tattoos. Of all the races that can use Tattoo Magic, Atlanteans are the most likely to have 6 or less tattoos... since they are one of the few with the secret to make them. Other races with the tattoos most likely got them from being prisoners of the Splugorth, and unless they are very lucky to escape before being turned into full T-Men, they are not likely to have less than 7 tattoos. The chances of any one else being close enough to Atlanteans or Chiang-Ku dragons to receive even a single tattoo is almost astronomically small... so it isn't a concern in most games that I've played in or run. It may not be official, but it does make sense.

5) This was the same reasoning I has when I was reading the magic... if a Monster Shaping Tattoo is to make an effective disguise, it should reproduce a realistic looking appearance that matches what the creatures look like. It still makes me wonder why Animal and Monster tattoos do not produce realistic coloration (though blue-white seems a little better than the official dull grey... which is why we went with it in our games... and will continue to do so), but Monster Shaping does mention it combines aspects of illusion magic too, so that is enough for me. Now that we have confirmation that Magic Tattoos use a full palate of color in their appearance... it makes more sense that this will be the case.

6) I do not agree that because Monster Shaping tattoos can make someone look like a monster that magic tattoos can make weapons out of silver or wood with those properties. If they could, then there would be no need for specific tattoos that can harm creatures vulnerable to such materials (such as specific anti-vampire weapons and power category tattoos). The truth is that the tattoos can't make actual animals or monsters and the monster shaping tattoos only give the appearance of a monster (it doesn't actually transform one into a monster)... thus I can not agree that magic tattoos can actually create weapons of wood or silver. They may look like these materials, but they are only temporary magical constructs without the innate properties of such materials. Even so, as a magical construct, they can still harm such creatures... they just won't be as effective as the actual materials (even a simple weapon that looks like a wooden staff will harm a vampire like an actual wooden staff would, but more because it is a magical construct than because the tattoo actually made wood... which it hasn't). It takes very specific spells to actually make wood or metal... and considerable PPE in most cases to make such things even semi-permanent... which seems beyond the capacity of Tattoo Magic as it currently stands.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

As of Secrets:
1) the statement is that "Due to the number of magic tattoos, they are considered supernatural beings with Supernatural P.S. and P.E., so their physical attacks inflict M.D. and hurt supernatural beings and Mega-Damage creatures"
This is in every Tattoo class and superceeds the previous text in the previous books implying that this is now canon for ALL tattoo classes for anyone, not just Atlantians.

2) the text of the book clearly indicates that there are colors involved in tattoos Silver, Black, White, Orange, Green and Blue are all explicitly mentioned.

3) as per page 143 you must touch the image and skin itself to activate the image until level 7 or higher. IF you are a Tattooed Man. There is no provision provided for non Tattooed Men to gain this ability

4) On the question of PPE there are two answers. Answer one is in on Atlantis 85, that all tattoos cost double for anyone that is not a full tattooed man. Answer two though is that the SotA book does not seem to mention this at all and it is possible that this limitation was retconed out of existence. As I see it though it is more likely that this was simply an omission and the rule is still in effect as there is no explicit statement revoking it and simply not reprinting a rule does not invalidate it.

5) Monster Shaping tattoos are explicitly stated to give you the "Form and features" of the mimicked monster. And are flatly stated to allow you to look like a generic member of the race. Since you can not have the "features" of a "generic member" of a race with out having their coloration that seems to be a pretty clear indication that you do gain the coloration of the form. This is quite likely because unlike the animal or monster tattoo you are not animating a 'living' thing but creating an item that you wield.

6) on a follow up note, the fact that the monster shaping tattoo looks just like the monster, and that it is possible to create weapons made out of silver or wood, it would seem to follow that items at least do have the appearance of the replicated item itself, and it is only when the creation is animated as a 'living thing' that it is required to be the featureless grey ectoplasm. But that is just an inference from known canon and not AFAIK explicitly stated in canon.

I hope this helps

1) And this now makes the Chain with Broken Link Tattoo utterly useless.

Uhh... no?

Why create a tattoo that provides SNPS when they already have it? The PPE cost for providing it to T-Men with 6 or less tattoos is too costly...

Im going to assume it is 60, since i didnt look it up and you say 30 for a T-man in your next sentence; i would still find that INSANELY useful as a spellcaster. I have a large PPE pool, probably dont have natural supernatural strength, and can reach down and touch a tatoo and then punch the guy threatening me into a pulp without having to cast a spell. sign me up.

and only adds 6 to the PS of those with more than 6 tattoos for 30 PPE is also too costly.

an extra 6 PS is far from useless. Thats like 3-5 physical skills worth of PS. It could easily kick you over into the next damage range on SN PS, which can add several dice of damage. Not useless. Just less useful to T-men, Monster-Men, Archers, and Maxi Men than it used to be (as Undead Slayers and Monster Shapers had SN PS even under the old rules). Still good though.

This is one case were this retcon effectively makes a common tattoo completely useless for anyone to get... not a very good "official" ruling in my opinion... it would be like creating a Fireball spell that is cheaper to cast at a lower level that does more damage than the standard Fireball spell...

There are several of those, actually. Not even joking.

why would anyone get this particular tatoo when it is either too costly to use or not worth the effect for the cost one pays?

Because the better lower level variants or damage spells aren't as common and cant just be easily found, whereas any town with a magic shop or guild can probably teach you Fireball for a fairly low cost and would be happy to do so. Oh, and as a TW - you have to have certain spells to make certain items. Regardless of how otherwise useless you ("you" as in "the character") feel they are.

No... this is one case where I will continue to invoke Rule Zero and ignore the official word. Furthermore, I have to reject this is because this magic works on Atlanteans, who can not be transformed by ANY means (bio-wizardry, vampire or any other magic that transforms a being into something else DOES NOT WORK on Atlanteans), thus since Tattoos do work for Atlanteans, the change to MDC can NOT be an actual magical transformation. It will be the magic of the Tattoos that register as supernatural to magic and other means of detecting such... but the being themselves do not become Supernatural. This may be Rule Zero... but I feel it makes more sense. It wouldn't be the first time that Palladium has contradicted itself.

Becoming a supernatural being does not imply a transformation. You're kind of making that up to mean what you want it to mean. Funnily enough, until Secrets, ONLY Atlantean T-men actually became supernatural creatures, so it was a PERK of being Atlantean.

2) The texts of the books I currently have isn't so clear as to the colors used, so for some time the groups I played with went with a general blue and white seen with generic magic. It is nice to see that SotA does give more detail with this.

3) While I know that this touching tattoos is needed to activate them before 7th level, the armor of Sunaj Assassins would normally preclude this save for the most experienced... which, to be frank about it, makes little sense. There is no way that EVERY SINGLE Sunaj assassin is over 7th level...

Uhh... why is there NO WAY that every Sunaj is over 7th level? If you're of the belief that there aren't large populations of people with OCCs at mid-to-high levels, disabuse yourself of that right off. The average CS Grunt these days is 5th-ish level? - someone else would have to get that detail, as i think it is in a book i dont own but came up in another thread. There are tens of thousands of mages in Tolkeen of each class that are 7th+, tens of thousands of Mystics alone in the Colorado Baronies that are 5-7 on average.

Not all Clan Ahriman Atlanteans are Sunaj. They are also one of the bigger remaining clans (not sure if this is still true in Secrets); that they only allow the best and baddest to go out and about as Sunaj (which could still be thousands or even tens of thousands, though it is NOT implied that there are Sunaj on every corner) is completely believable. It also helps them keep up their "dont pock with us, well crush you like bugs" bad-ass image, if you only ever encounter the ones that are experienced enough to not have to touch their tattoos to pose as Sunaj.

and making armor with holes for tattoos is ridiculous... it would compromise the very protection one seeks to gain with armor (even with moving plates). Thus it seems reasonable that Sunaj undergo specialized training to learn to activate their tattoos without the need to touch them at a much lower level. Since Sunaj are considered NPC villains, I see nothing overpowering with this ruling... it isn't something that Players are likely to learn and it helps keep those who play other T-Men wondering just who the Sunaj are... since only the most skilled and experienced T-Men can use tattoos in such manner (thus making one wonder if the Sunaj are using Magic Tattoos or not). Players must touch the tattoos until they are level 7... but Sunaj are not Player characters in most games... and only Sunaj classes get this training... not any other member of Clan Aerihman.

I think you just went to a great deal of mental gymnastics to invent a reason why all Sunaj aren't bad-ass mothers (when that is CLEARLY how they are portrayed), when the far simpler solution is that the few thousand or so Aerihman that go around as Sunaj (out of hundreds of thousands or a million of them) are just bad-ass mothers. They dont wear the armor for protection - that they dont really need as a T-man - they wear it to CONCEAL their Tattoos and Atlantean Heritage. Its a disguise.

4) I gave the Atlanteans and Chiang-Ku Dragons this small benefit to use Tattoos at normal cost regardless of the number of tattoos because of their long history with Tattoo Magic (the two races are credited with the creation of the Magic)... and the fact that both races get Marks of Heritage (and thus have been using the magic since they were children/hatchlings). For all others, the cost is doubled if they have less than 7 tattoos. Of all the races that can use Tattoo Magic, Atlanteans are the most likely to have 6 or less tattoos... since they are one of the few with the secret to make them. Other races with the tattoos most likely got them from being prisoners of the Splugorth, and unless they are very lucky to escape before being turned into full T-Men, they are not likely to have less than 7 tattoos. The chances of any one else being close enough to Atlanteans or Chiang-Ku dragons to receive even a single tattoo is almost astronomically small... so it isn't a concern in most games that I've played in or run. It may not be official, but it does make sense.

Unless you're good friends with an Atlantean, and are given a few tattoos as a reward for helping them out. Say, if a party member is an Atlantean, and you do some favors for his Clan to really help them out, its not even remotely unreasonable that theyd give you the Marks at the very least (likely in different spots so as not to have you confused with a real Atlantean). Or befriend a Chiang-Ku, who are not solely confined to the realm of the Atlanteans. If you're native to or visit England, the Nog Henge can and do give Tattoos out to trusted friends and heroes who help them. As an example.

5) This was the same reasoning I has when I was reading the magic... if a Monster Shaping Tattoo is to make an effective disguise, it should reproduce a realistic looking appearance that matches what the creatures look like. It still makes me wonder why Animal and Monster tattoos do not produce realistic coloration (though blue-white seems a little better than the official dull grey... which is why we went with it in our games... and will continue to do so), but Monster Shaping does mention it combines aspects of illusion magic too, so that is enough for me. Now that we have confirmation that Magic Tattoos use a full palate of color in their appearance... it makes more sense that this will be the case.

6) I do not agree that because Monster Shaping tattoos can make someone look like a monster that magic tattoos can make weapons out of silver or wood with those properties. If they could, then there would be no need for specific tattoos that can harm creatures vulnerable to such materials (such as specific anti-vampire weapons and power category tattoos).

Uhh.. yeah, there's still a use for those. Those inflict MORE damage to the type of creature. For instance, you could have a silver sword tattoo, and it would hurt a vampire, because it is silver. You can have the one that is anti-undead, and it will inflict DOUBLE damage to vampires. Still useful. I would even have both; the plain-silver tattoo can also hurt were-beasts.

The truth is that the tattoos can't make actual animals or monsters and the monster shaping tattoos only give the appearance of a monster (it doesn't actually transform one into a monster)... thus I can not agree that magic tattoos can actually create weapons of wood or silver. They may look like these materials, but they are only temporary magical constructs without the innate properties of such materials.

There's nothing to back that up in the text, unless Secrets has something to say. And referencing other magic... you can, in fact, create temporary (and permanent) items that have the real properties (Conjuror OCC, Create Wood, etc) out of thin air. I see no reason Tattoo magic couldn't do the same.

As for monster shaping tattoos "only giving the appearance of a monster" (and not actually transforming you), that is because CJ Carella wrote it, and, despite his other flaws (Power Creep? No, Power Marathon) he's REALLY GOOD at the small details. Im sure he was like "these turn you into a monster, cool!" and then realized "and then the Atlanteans that invented this Tattoo type couldn't use them because of this really dumb ability Atlanteans have". Rather than try to get Kevin to ret-con the Atlantean ability to something sensible (like "cannot be transformed against their will" - thus allowing Shaping Tattoos to be really useful and even the rather sizable collection of shape-changing spells to be usable by Atlantean spellcasters...) or make an exception for this one clan, he just went with what was, when dealing with Kevin and his writing/editing proccesses, the easier solution.

Even so, as a magical construct, they can still harm such creatures...

Nope. Doesn't work that way. A simple weapon wooden staff does not inflict magic damage.

they just won't be as effective as the actual materials (even a simple weapon that looks like a wooden staff will harm a vampire like an actual wooden staff would, but more because it is a magical construct than because the tattoo actually made wood... which it hasn't). It takes very specific spells to actually make wood or metal... and considerable PPE in most cases to make such things even semi-permanent... which seems beyond the capacity of Tattoo Magic as it currently stands.

You're begging the question. You make a statement at the start that assumes your conclusion is true, to prove your conclusion is true. There is nothing to back that reasoning up. There is nothing to say, for instance, that yeah, it is hard for other practitioners to do (... sometimes; its simple as all get out for a Conjuror, moderately hard for Earth Warlocks, and tougher for others right up until someone in the party gets their hands on Talisman or Energy Sphere)... but maybe Tattoos do it better. (Edit: An example of this is how easily T-men can Ressurect people compared to others). Its not like Tattoos really have a lot of advantages over traditional magic. Being able to summon a weapon to suit any situation (that only inflicts base/light damage) is a totally reasonable benefit (and you have to expend a LOT of Tattoo picks to do it). The actual scope of Tattoo abilities is pretty limited.

Though on the "are simple weapons considered the real material" note - its largely moot. As Supernatural creatures, T-men can simply punch Vampires and Werebeasts and other supernaturally resistant creatures to death. Yay Supernatural Strength! (Which the Tattoo would have allowed them to do anyway, and with a decent Strength stat, at a far higher number of dice than a measly 1-3d6 for a sword...)

[The Beast]

In addition to what Tetsuya said about the Sunaji, I don't recall it being stated that they must always use their tattoos. It's possible that to help cover their tracks the assassins aren't given armor with holes in it to prevent them from using tattoos, in order to keep people guessing as to who the Sunaji are.

[kaid]

The only thing that seems to imply that the tattoo weapon could have the material effect such as silver and wood is with the heritage anti vampire tattoo. I believe in the secrets of atlantis not only does activating it give you the normal immunities to mind control and other vampire shenanigans but now it also gives you a 'wooden' stake when activated. For it to be useful at all it would actually have to work as wood to do anything to vampires. So that does sort of imply that at least as long as it is active that a silver tattoo weapon could work like silver and wood tattoo weapons work like wood.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The only thing that seems to imply that the tattoo weapon could have the material effect such as silver and wood is with the heritage anti vampire tattoo. I believe in the secrets of atlantis not only does activating it give you the normal immunities to mind control and other vampire shenanigans but now it also gives you a 'wooden' stake when activated. For it to be useful at all it would actually have to work as wood to do anything to vampires. So that does sort of imply that at least as long as it is active that a silver tattoo weapon could work like silver and wood tattoo weapons work like wood.

Yeah, i don't have Secrets. But Atlantis/SA/Splynn Dimensional Market don't say one way or the other. It just says... you get the weapon depicted in the tattoo. It doesn't say it can, or cannot be of any given material, but given that historically (even in Rifts) swords, for instance, were made from everything from bronze through to steel, what would determine what it would be a facimile of ?

Its unclear in the original text or not there at all.

However, given the new tattoo in Secrets giving you a wooden stake that clearly behaves like real wood.... I'd say that intimiation is strong that Simple Weapon tatoos can be of any relevant material. In 90% or more of cases it would be irrelevant anyway, since they are indestructible, and very few materials provide any tangible benefit - silver, wood, and maybe cold-wrought iron would be about it.

Given that the weapon conjured is just going to do its relatively low SDC damage to any creature actually vulnerable to it, i dont see a balance issue at all. It gives a reason to actually take the things. If you really wanted to pock up a vampire as a T-man, you're far better off in most cases just punching him to death or whipping out a Flaming Weapon Dripping Blood to actually do decent damage.

It really only is a "major" benefit to non-T-men users, since even at double cost its still cheap as dirt, and you're still only getting 1 or 2d6 damage for your trouble. Most of the classes that have enough PPE to even use tattoos can already do better with other abilities (spellcasters get Lightblade, a few others, Psi-characters have almost no PPE, Cyber-Knights, the only class called out as "commonly" (1 in 200) having a "few tattoos" can do better with their PSI-swords, etc.

I dont see an issue with it, in the end.

[eliakon]

As of Secrets:
1) the statement is that "Due to the number of magic tattoos, they are considered supernatural beings with Supernatural P.S. and P.E., so their physical attacks inflict M.D. and hurt supernatural beings and Mega-Damage creatures"
This is in every Tattoo class and superceeds the previous text in the previous books implying that this is now canon for ALL tattoo classes for anyone, not just Atlantians.

2) the text of the book clearly indicates that there are colors involved in tattoos Silver, Black, White, Orange, Green and Blue are all explicitly mentioned.

3) as per page 143 you must touch the image and skin itself to activate the image until level 7 or higher. IF you are a Tattooed Man. There is no provision provided for non Tattooed Men to gain this ability

4) On the question of PPE there are two answers. Answer one is in on Atlantis 85, that all tattoos cost double for anyone that is not a full tattooed man. Answer two though is that the SotA book does not seem to mention this at all and it is possible that this limitation was retconed out of existence. As I see it though it is more likely that this was simply an omission and the rule is still in effect as there is no explicit statement revoking it and simply not reprinting a rule does not invalidate it.

5) Monster Shaping tattoos are explicitly stated to give you the "Form and features" of the mimicked monster. And are flatly stated to allow you to look like a generic member of the race. Since you can not have the "features" of a "generic member" of a race with out having their coloration that seems to be a pretty clear indication that you do gain the coloration of the form. This is quite likely because unlike the animal or monster tattoo you are not animating a 'living' thing but creating an item that you wield.

6) on a follow up note, the fact that the monster shaping tattoo looks just like the monster, and that it is possible to create weapons made out of silver or wood, it would seem to follow that items at least do have the appearance of the replicated item itself, and it is only when the creation is animated as a 'living thing' that it is required to be the featureless grey ectoplasm. But that is just an inference from known canon and not AFAIK explicitly stated in canon.

I hope this helps

1) And this now makes the Chain with Broken Link Tattoo utterly useless. Why create a tattoo that provides SNPS when they already have it? The PPE cost for providing it to T-Men with 6 or less tattoos is too costly... and only adds 6 to the PS of those with more than 6 tattoos for 30 PPE is also too costly. This is one case were this retcon effectively makes a common tattoo completely useless for anyone to get... not a very good "official" ruling in my opinion... it would be like creating a Fireball spell that is cheaper to cast at a lower level that does more damage than the standard Fireball spell... why would anyone get this particular tatoo when it is either too costly to use or not worth the effect for the cost one pays? No... this is one case where I will continue to invoke Rule Zero and ignore the official word. Furthermore, I have to reject this is because this magic works on Atlanteans, who can not be transformed by ANY means (bio-wizardry, vampire or any other magic that transforms a being into something else DOES NOT WORK on Atlanteans), thus since Tattoos do work for Atlanteans, the change to MDC can NOT be an actual magical transformation. It will be the magic of the Tattoos that register as supernatural to magic and other means of detecting such... but the being themselves do not become Supernatural. This may be Rule Zero... but I feel it makes more sense. It wouldn't be the first time that Palladium has contradicted itself.

Correct. It is not an optimal tattoo now in many cases.
However it can be of great value in several cases
1) it allows for those with less that 6 tattoos to have SNPS. This is actually VERY valuable, as it allows the T-man to train themselves to learn how to handle the new level of strength that they will have when they DO hit 6 with the ability to have it only on during such lessons. Quite valuable if you want to avoid accidents.
2) that +6 is still pretty valuable if are looking for PS as there is a limit to the options for raising your strength, and it is questionable if physical skills will help.
but yeah, rule zero away, that's what its there for.

3) While I know that this touching tattoos is needed to activate them before 7th level, the armor of Sunaj Assassins would normally preclude this save for the most experienced... which, to be frank about it, makes little sense. There is no way that EVERY SINGLE Sunaj assassin is over 7th level... and making armor with holes for tattoos is ridiculous... it would compromise the very protection one seeks to gain with armor (even with moving plates). Thus it seems reasonable that Sunaj undergo specialized training to learn to activate their tattoos without the need to touch them at a much lower level. Since Sunaj are considered NPC villains, I see nothing overpowering with this ruling... it isn't something that Players are likely to learn and it helps keep those who play other T-Men wondering just who the Sunaj are... since only the most skilled and experienced T-Men can use tattoos in such manner (thus making one wonder if the Sunaj are using Magic Tattoos or not). Players must touch the tattoos until they are level 7... but Sunaj are not Player characters in most games... and only Sunaj classes get this training... not any other member of Clan Aerihman.

You hit the nail on the head, the new write up of the Sunaj Assasin class gives them specialized tattoo training that lets them activate tattoos at level 1 by will.

4) I gave the Atlanteans and Chiang-Ku Dragons this small benefit to use Tattoos at normal cost regardless of the number of tattoos because of their long history with Tattoo Magic (the two races are credited with the creation of the Magic)... and the fact that both races get Marks of Heritage (and thus have been using the magic since they were children/hatchlings). For all others, the cost is doubled if they have less than 7 tattoos. Of all the races that can use Tattoo Magic, Atlanteans are the most likely to have 6 or less tattoos... since they are one of the few with the secret to make them. Other races with the tattoos most likely got them from being prisoners of the Splugorth, and unless they are very lucky to escape before being turned into full T-Men, they are not likely to have less than 7 tattoos. The chances of any one else being close enough to Atlanteans or Chiang-Ku dragons to receive even a single tattoo is almost astronomically small... so it isn't a concern in most games that I've played in or run. It may not be official, but it does make sense.

*Nod*
Rule zero is great, it makes games fit for your table. I was just trying to make clear what the status of canon was (or wasn't in this case )

5) This was the same reasoning I has when I was reading the magic... if a Monster Shaping Tattoo is to make an effective disguise, it should reproduce a realistic looking appearance that matches what the creatures look like. It still makes me wonder why Animal and Monster tattoos do not produce realistic coloration (though blue-white seems a little better than the official dull grey... which is why we went with it in our games... and will continue to do so), but Monster Shaping does mention it combines aspects of illusion magic too, so that is enough for me. Now that we have confirmation that Magic Tattoos use a full palate of color in their appearance... it makes more sense that this will be the case.

The reason that I suspect they went with grey is that ectoplasm itself is grey so something made out of ectoplasm would logically also be grey.

6) I do not agree that because Monster Shaping tattoos can make someone look like a monster that magic tattoos can make weapons out of silver or wood with those properties. If they could, then there would be no need for specific tattoos that can harm creatures vulnerable to such materials (such as specific anti-vampire weapons and power category tattoos). The truth is that the tattoos can't make actual animals or monsters and the monster shaping tattoos only give the appearance of a monster (it doesn't actually transform one into a monster)... thus I can not agree that magic tattoos can actually create weapons of wood or silver. They may look like these materials, but they are only temporary magical constructs without the innate properties of such materials. Even so, as a magical construct, they can still harm such creatures... they just won't be as effective as the actual materials (even a simple weapon that looks like a wooden staff will harm a vampire like an actual wooden staff would, but more because it is a magical construct than because the tattoo actually made wood... which it hasn't). It takes very specific spells to actually make wood or metal... and considerable PPE in most cases to make such things even semi-permanent... which seems beyond the capacity of Tattoo Magic as it currently stands.

*shrugs* I am just reporting what the books state. Several individuals and clans have tattoos that are explicitly stated to be silver weapons or wood weapons or the like. Whether or not the GM wishes that to simply be a visual effect or an actual effect is up to them.
Personally I am of the opinion that it makes sense. After all an animal tattoo has all the natural abilities of the animal, a monster has all the abilities of the monster... so why wouldn't silver have all the abilities of silver. Especially since currently the ability to create an animal or monster by magic is the exclusive province of the Conjurer and Line Drawer, no one else can do it even with a spell of legend.
The 9th level spell Mystic Warrior can create an illusion that has a semblance of reality but can still be disbelieved. The only exception is a few obscure and rare spells of legend that can create a copy of the caster..

The advantage to a silver sword over a flaming sword to me is three fold:
1) as a simple weapon it is cheaper and lasts longer
2) it allows for a 'proportionate' weapon, in that if you hit someone who is NOT an undead or were or the like with a silver sword you don't instantly kill them
3) it does double damage already, which can then be enhanced further with weapon enhancing tattoos allowing for a highly specialized weapon for those who wish to spend the slots to become a specialist like that.

[eliakon]

The only thing that seems to imply that the tattoo weapon could have the material effect such as silver and wood is with the heritage anti vampire tattoo. I believe in the secrets of atlantis not only does activating it give you the normal immunities to mind control and other vampire shenanigans but now it also gives you a 'wooden' stake when activated. For it to be useful at all it would actually have to work as wood to do anything to vampires. So that does sort of imply that at least as long as it is active that a silver tattoo weapon could work like silver and wood tattoo weapons work like wood.

Don't forget
Clan Aerihman's tattoo is a "long sword enveloped in black flames with the hilt being a silver cross"
Clan Skolos has "a bastard sword seemingly made of ice radiationg light blue flames"
Sir Percival has a "Simple Weapon: Silver knife"
Sir Galahad has "Simple Weapon: Silver knife" "Simple Weapon: Four ordinary wooden arrows" "Simple Weapon: Wooden throwing stick"
Pharaoh Rama Set has "Simple Weapon: Silver knife" "Simple Weapon: Wooden Cross" (Demonstrating that a 'simple weapon' can be an object other than just a weapon)
Lo Fung The Dragon has "Simple Weapon: Wood Staff" (also worth noting HIS arrows as are every other arrow tattoo are NOT noted as being wooden like Sir Galahad)
There may be others, but I think 2 clans and 4 NPCs are a good sampling to provide a demonstration, though I will be happy to search for more if people like.

I will ALSO note that all of the NPCs listed above were written BY Kevin Siembieda himself and thus are as canon as possible and provide insight into exactly what his personal opinion of how tattoo's work.

[kaid]

The only thing that seems to imply that the tattoo weapon could have the material effect such as silver and wood is with the heritage anti vampire tattoo. I believe in the secrets of atlantis not only does activating it give you the normal immunities to mind control and other vampire shenanigans but now it also gives you a 'wooden' stake when activated. For it to be useful at all it would actually have to work as wood to do anything to vampires. So that does sort of imply that at least as long as it is active that a silver tattoo weapon could work like silver and wood tattoo weapons work like wood.

Yeah, i don't have Secrets. But Atlantis/SA/Splynn Dimensional Market don't say one way or the other. It just says... you get the weapon depicted in the tattoo. It doesn't say it can, or cannot be of any given material, but given that historically (even in Rifts) swords, for instance, were made from everything from bronze through to steel, what would determine what it would be a facimile of ?

Its unclear in the original text or not there at all.

However, given the new tattoo in Secrets giving you a wooden stake that clearly behaves like real wood.... I'd say that intimiation is strong that Simple Weapon tatoos can be of any relevant material. In 90% or more of cases it would be irrelevant anyway, since they are indestructible, and very few materials provide any tangible benefit - silver, wood, and maybe cold-wrought iron would be about it.

Given that the weapon conjured is just going to do its relatively low SDC damage to any creature actually vulnerable to it, i dont see a balance issue at all. It gives a reason to actually take the things. If you really wanted to pock up a vampire as a T-man, you're far better off in most cases just punching him to death or whipping out a Flaming Weapon Dripping Blood to actually do decent damage.

It really only is a "major" benefit to non-T-men users, since even at double cost its still cheap as dirt, and you're still only getting 1 or 2d6 damage for your trouble. Most of the classes that have enough PPE to even use tattoos can already do better with other abilities (spellcasters get Lightblade, a few others, Psi-characters have almost no PPE, Cyber-Knights, the only class called out as "commonly" (1 in 200) having a "few tattoos" can do better with their PSI-swords, etc.

I dont see an issue with it, in the end.

It kinda makes sense as well. This is a people who had such a hard on killing vampires that they have an entire profession geared to that one specific goal and and a magic type to assist in that one goal it is not a huge stretch that it actually works like a wooden stake. This way every atlantean has the tattoos to make them immune to mind control from vampires and gives them a stake and a magic weapon. So you can beat them down with the magic weapon and when weakened stake them and finish them off. That would mean every atlantean old enough to have the marks of heritage as access to the tools needed for permanently killing a vampire.

[Razorwing]

The whole T-Men as Supernatural Creatures (especially Undead Slayers, Monster Hunters and Sunaj) boils down to these two Rules as Written that seem to be in conflict.

1) Atlanteans can NOT be transformed by ANY means (whether this is only Magical or includes technological means is not clear in most write ups, but for the sake of argument, I will assume it is just magical means). It lists many means that simply will not work to transform them in any way, but it also says that it is NOT limited to just these methods... and that any future magical means to transform beings by magic in future books also WILL NOT WORK. Atlanteans can NOT become Supernatural Beings.

2) Tattoo magic transforms T-Men into Supernatural Beings. I am still questioning this as it does not actually say this in the books at my disposal, but I also have no reason to question the people here on a book that I do not have. For the sake of argument, I will accept that people are being honest and that Secrets of the Atlantean Books actually does say this outright.

These are both Rules as Written... but are mutually exclusive. If Tattoo Magic transforms the user into a supernatural being with 7 or more tattoos... it can NOT work on True Atlanteans because of RAW #1 above. If True Atlanteans can benefit from Tattoo Magic with more than 7 tattoos giving them MDC durability... then Tattoo Magic is NOT transforming them into supernatural beings. BOTH RULES CAN NOT BE CORRECT!

This wouldn't be the first time that Palladium Books has contradicted itself with Rules as Written being in contradiction to each other.

While most people (including Palladium Books apparently) have decided to ignore the Atlantean Immunity to ALL transformations... I have chosen in my games to adjust Tattoo Magic instead. 7 or more tattoos merely provide MDC protections... they do not automatically grant Supernatural Strength or Endurance (or any kind of bio-regeneration). This also preserves the importance of the Chain with a Broken Link tattoo's usefulness to all T-Men.

The idea that a future T-man would use this one Tattoo to practice controlling Supernatural Strength is preposterous... it would be costing anyone with less than 6 tattoos 60 PPE to use (double cost) and only last for a few short minutes of time (5 minutes per level). Unless the individual was a user of magic before hand... or fairly young, they are not likely to have a lot of PPE at their disposal to use this tattoo at this point more than once... maybe twice before needing to rest for a few hours (6 hours or so to recover based on standard T-Men PPE recovery; which is being generous since they are not yet T-Men). This would be like giving a future 'Borg character a power armor suit to learn how to control Augmented or Robotic level strength before they are made into a 'Borg... useless and redundant. If Magic Tattoos grant Supernatural Strength to T-men with more than 6 Tattoos, they will learn to control that strength when they receive it and will have no use for a Tattoo that grants them the same effect. Simply put... there would be no need to create such a tattoo, as those who would likely use it can't afford to while those wo can afford to likely won't need it. Even Men of Magic have no real need of this tattoo with the Superhuman Strength Invocation... as the spell grants them SNPS of 30 for a mere 10 PEE.

As for my other musings and points... I will not debate them. I admit that they are HOUSE RULES and may conflict with RAW. I gave what I feel are sound reasonings for them. Whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant. I am not trying to force anyone to play by my rules and I have no intention of listening to arguments that amount to little more than "YOU MUST PLAY THIS WAY BECAUSE!" I am not interested in whether the House Rules meet with the approval of this forum... I was mostly interested in finding out if there were official rulings on some questions I had... and if the House Rules and changes I made seem reasonable and make sense. The constant need for people to prove me wrong... even when I admit that the changes do not go with the RAW.

If people can not take a step back from their insistence that everything must be done by RAW.... even when someone admits that they are not using RAW... and give the points the critique they are asking for (if they are reasonable and make some in-setting logic)... then we have nothing further to discuss in this matter. You have all made the RAW perfectly clear... now step away from your rules and find any flaws with the reasoning I provided without resorting to RAW.

Does it make sense for Atlanteans and Chiang-Ku dragons with their centuries of experience, to use tattoos at their normal costs regardless of the number they have? Does it make sense that Sunaj would undergo intense and specialized training to allow them to use their tattoos without the need to touch them while in armor even if they are under 7th level? Do the changes for the tattoos in SDC environments seem acceptable? While it is debatable which RAW should be enforced with regards to T-Men being supernatural... does my logic for my position have any flaws other than "Because Palladium Says So"?

[kaid]

I double checked a few things in my release version of secrets of atlantis. Both undead slayers can use tattoos by thought at level 4 and sunaj can do it at level one but it costs them 2 attacks to activate a tattoo without touching it. At level 4 they work the same as undead slayers for tattoo usage.

The whole cannot be transformed but 6 plus makes them MDC is a bit of a paradox but given it has been like that since they were created it probably reads better that the only thing that can transform them is the tattoo magic they specifically designed and developed when they were altering themselves to be resistant to vampires.


For summoned animals and monsters they are stated as being grey and lifeless looking basically obvious magical constructs. Monster shape tattoos are said to look like a normal member of that species although your tattoos are still visible on your scales/hide/whatever.

Nothing is really said about if tattoo weapons take on the properties of the substance they appear to be but the anti vampire tattoo of heritage gives both a "wooden" stake and cross. Presumably the wooden stake functions as such or why waste the time/effort to create it in the first place.

Tattoo of chain with a broken link is less good than it once was but still useful for people who don't have the full T-man upgrade which is the majority of atlanteans. It is expensive but being able to be supernaturally strong even for a limited time is potentially really useful.

[eliakon]

The whole T-Men as Supernatural Creatures (especially Undead Slayers, Monster Hunters and Sunaj) boils down to these two Rules as Written that seem to be in conflict.

1) Atlanteans can NOT be transformed by ANY means (whether this is only Magical or includes technological means is not clear in most write ups, but for the sake of argument, I will assume it is just magical means). It lists many means that simply will not work to transform them in any way, but it also says that it is NOT limited to just these methods... and that any future magical means to transform beings by magic in future books also WILL NOT WORK. Atlanteans can NOT become Supernatural Beings.

2) Tattoo magic transforms T-Men into Supernatural Beings. I am still questioning this as it does not actually say this in the books at my disposal, but I also have no reason to question the people here on a book that I do not have. For the sake of argument, I will accept that people are being honest and that Secrets of the Atlantean Books actually does say this outright.

These are both Rules as Written... but are mutually exclusive. If Tattoo Magic transforms the user into a supernatural being with 7 or more tattoos... it can NOT work on True Atlanteans because of RAW #1 above. If True Atlanteans can benefit from Tattoo Magic with more than 7 tattoos giving them MDC durability... then Tattoo Magic is NOT transforming them into supernatural beings. BOTH RULES CAN NOT BE CORRECT!

Since both rules appeared in the same source at the same time I am of the opinion that they are both true.
I.e. Atlantians CAN'T be transformed in any way.
HOWEVER the Atlantian race ALREADY has two states, the regular one you normally see and a second one that the 6 tattoos 'unlocks'. Since the immune to transformation was instilled at the same time they were adding Tattoo Magic it seems to me the most logical.
I will also note that this interpretation allows for both rules to be canon and thus does not require dismissing part of the canon. It also has the advantage of fitting in with their mentality. They wanted to be unchanging... but liked tattoos. they knew that Tattoos provided a specific change. Therefore they put a specific loophole in there 'change protection' that lets this one, specific change, that they as a race desire, to take place. But they lock out all other changes because, at the time, they did not know of any other class of change that was something that they felt was going to be always of use.

The idea that a future T-man would use this one Tattoo to practice controlling Supernatural Strength is preposterous... it would be costing anyone with less than 6 tattoos 60 PPE to use (double cost) and only last for a few short minutes of time (5 minutes per level). Unless the individual was a user of magic before hand... or fairly young, they are not likely to have a lot of PPE at their disposal to use this tattoo at this point more than once... maybe twice before needing to rest for a few hours (6 hours or so to recover based on standard T-Men PPE recovery; which is being generous since they are not yet T-Men).

Since they are Atlantians they are, I presume, not training in a vacuum.
They will have access to ley lines and pyramids to recharge with. They have many other Atlantians that can lend them PPE for their training.

This would be like giving a future 'Borg character a power armor suit to learn how to control Augmented or Robotic level strength before they are made into a 'Borg... useless and redundant.

Why would that be useless and reduntant?
Your conclusion is only true if your premise that your conclusion is true is true.
And the Atlantians with their very high reverence for life, and their very high aversion to the risk of their dwindling population seem like the sort of people who WOULD take extensive measures to make sure there were no accidents.

If Magic Tattoos grant Supernatural Strength to T-men with more than 6 Tattoos, they will learn to control that strength when they receive it and will have no use for a Tattoo that grants them the same effect. Simply put... there would be no need to create such a tattoo, as those who would likely use it can't afford to while those wo can afford to likely won't need it. Even Men of Magic have no real need of this tattoo with the Superhuman Strength Invocation... as the spell grants them SNPS of 30 for a mere 10 PEE.

Again you are saying it is useless based solely on your claim that it is useless.
As a very high percentage of T-Man and Chang-Ku have it, it would seem that they beg to differ.
Not to mention of course that not every mage will have the Superhuman Strength Invocation, or even be able to use it.
And I will again point out that the tattoo is the equivilant of having 2-3 physical skills, and that the bonus is very nice for those who can not use other means to boost their strength.
I will also note that it boosts supernatural strength. So that mage can get PS 36 now. Which I might add moves from 3d6 MD to 5d6 MD
And as was noted previously the boost is NOT trivial. Each strength category provides an additional 1d6 of damage to punches which is nothing to sneer at. Especially if you are wielding a weapon that does double or triple (or more) damage to your chosen foe. Suddenly that one tattoo can result in an extra 10 or 20 MD of damage per hit. I don't know about you but that sounds like a good deal to me.

If people can not take a step back from their insistence that everything must be done by RAW.... even when someone admits that they are not using RAW... and give the points the critique they are asking for (if they are reasonable and make some in-setting logic)... then we have nothing further to discuss in this matter. You have all made the RAW perfectly clear... now step away from your rules and find any flaws with the reasoning I provided without resorting to RAW.

If you are asking for things, then it is generally presumed that your entire post is asking for things.
If you don't want people questioning you statements then don't phrase it as a question.
From where I sit it looks like you are mixing your questions that you want addressed in with your house rules that you simply want to show off to us and it is forbidden to critique.
I would suggest simply asking the questions since if you don't want people discussing something or their opinions of it, then posting it on a discussion board is probably not the most optimal course of action. It might be better to split it into two posts. One asking what the answers to your questions are, and one listing out your house rules and asking what peoples thoughts on the logic behind them is and for constructive commentary with the base premise that they are house rules and thus "because the book says so" is not valid.

Does it make sense for Atlanteans and Chiang-Ku dragons with their centuries of experience, to use tattoos at their normal costs regardless of the number they have?

No (I have a house rule that the Marks of Heratige are an exception. Infact I allow them to be used at normal cost for children, and half cost for adults due to their years of training.) But the 'centuries of experiance' to me doesn't wash, because it isn't the sort of thing that you can hand down to the next generation. The average Atlantian isn't going to have centuries of practice with their tattoo for instance. However I could see allowing someone who has had a tattoo that they regularly use long enough to use it at regular cost. It would probably be no less than 40-50 years, and I would probably go with a nice even 100 years.

Does it make sense that Sunaj would undergo intense and specialized training to allow them to use their tattoos without the need to touch them while in armor even if they are under 7th level?

Yes, that is why the books changed the rules to reflect that now.

Do the changes for the tattoos in SDC environments seem acceptable? While it is debatable which RAW should be enforced with regards to T-Men being supernatural... does my logic for my position have any flaws other than "Because Palladium Says So"?

yes

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The whole T-Men as Supernatural Creatures (especially Undead Slayers, Monster Hunters and Sunaj) boils down to these two Rules as Written that seem to be in conflict.

1) Atlanteans can NOT be transformed by ANY means (whether this is only Magical or includes technological means is not clear in most write ups, but for the sake of argument, I will assume it is just magical means). It lists many means that simply will not work to transform them in any way, but it also says that it is NOT limited to just these methods... and that any future magical means to transform beings by magic in future books also WILL NOT WORK. Atlanteans can NOT become Supernatural Beings.

2) Tattoo magic transforms T-Men into Supernatural Beings.

Got any reference to a "Transformation"? There isn't one. Becomes is not Transforms. You're conflating the two when there is no evidence of any kind to support that supposition. They aren't undergoing any transformation. They arent growing any new appendages, changing shape, size, etc. By your logic, they also couldn't even use several tattoos (anything that alters their statistics, as that would be transforming them), and couldn't be the target of dozens of spells (Superhuman Speed, etc).

None of those things have ever been true.

Edit: Also, Atlanteans CAN become supernatural beings. Underseas clearly says that Sea Titans, Atlanteans, and the (then) mysterious Lemurians can all become Demi-gods. (And ill have to check SA2 but i think there is confirmation there as well; that one is still boxed up downstairs though).

I am still questioning this as it does not actually say this in the books at my disposal, but I also have no reason to question the people here on a book that I do not have. For the sake of argument, I will accept that people are being honest and that Secrets of the Atlantean Books actually does say this outright.

It now also applies to all OTHER T-men (non-Atlanteans) as well.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

BOTH RULES CAN NOT BE CORRECT!

They can because your logic is inherently incorrect and flawed. You are assuming something is true when there is no evidence that it is. It's called begging the question. Its a logical fallacy.

This wouldn't be the first time that Palladium Books has contradicted itself with Rules as Written being in contradiction to each other.

While most people (including Palladium Books apparently) have decided to ignore the Atlantean Immunity to ALL transformations... I have chosen in my games to adjust Tattoo Magic instead. 7 or more tattoos merely provide MDC protections... they do not automatically grant Supernatural Strength or Endurance (or any kind of bio-regeneration). This also preserves the importance of the Chain with a Broken Link tattoo's usefulness to all T-Men.

It's still a hugely important tattoo, unless you think gaining an average of 2D6 MD to all physical attacks is somehow worthless. (6 points generally puts you up two categories on the SN Strength Table).

The idea that a future T-man would use this one Tattoo to practice controlling Supernatural Strength is preposterous...

Preposterous? No. Unlikely? Sure/maybe? While training, blowing the 60PPE to train is.. irrelevant. Thats what training is for. You dont need to conserve it for later.

it would be costing anyone with less than 6 tattoos 60 PPE to use (double cost) and only last for a few short minutes of time (5 minutes per level). Unless the individual was a user of magic before hand... or fairly young, they are not likely to have a lot of PPE at their disposal to use this tattoo at this point more than once... maybe twice before needing to rest for a few hours (6 hours or so to recover based on standard T-Men PPE recovery; which is being generous since they are not yet T-Men).

Which doesn't make it useless (nor is 5 minutes per level "short" - do you even PLAY Rifts? Thats an -eternity- for most buffs or protections). Remember Tattoos also give you PPE.

This would be like giving a future 'Borg character a power armor suit to learn how to control Augmented or Robotic level strength before they are made into a 'Borg... useless and redundant. If Magic Tattoos grant Supernatural Strength to T-men with more than 6 Tattoos, they will learn to control that strength when they receive it and will have no use for a Tattoo that grants them the same effect. Simply put... there would be no need to create such a tattoo, as those who would likely use it can't afford to while those wo can afford to likely won't need it. Even Men of Magic have no real need of this tattoo with the Superhuman Strength Invocation... as the spell grants them SNPS of 30 for a mere 10 PEE.

Yeah, but you have to first 1) know that spell and 2) be able to get it off/cast it successfully. The tattoo, i can just touch and go. Cant be interrupted. Do not underestimate that. CS stuffed a gag in my mouth? No worries, touch the tattoo and good to go. Tear my bonds off and punch my way out.

As for my other musings and points... I will not debate them. I admit that they are HOUSE RULES and may conflict with RAW.

Yeah, you may wish to go read the OP again. You wander back and forth between saying "this is what the books say" and "this is my house rule" without ever actually identifying what is what, in a lot of cases. You state several things as if they are RAW fact when they are not.

I gave what I feel are sound reasonings for them.

And we gave what we feel are sound reasonings for them being incorrect or based on an incorrect interpretation of the rules in the first place.

Whether you agree with them or not is irrelevant. I am not trying to force anyone to play by my rules and I have no intention of listening to arguments that amount to little more than "YOU MUST PLAY THIS WAY BECAUSE!"

Stop Strawmanning. No one said that. Literally no one.

I am not interested in whether the House Rules meet with the approval of this forum...

Then why even bother posting them? Im not particularly interested in reading things even you consider irrelevant to the discussion. That's just wasting everyone's time

I was mostly interested in finding out if there were official rulings on some questions I had... and if the House Rules and changes I made seem reasonable and make sense. The constant need for people to prove me wrong... even when I admit that the changes do not go with the RAW.

We're attempting to show you that the reason you made your house rule isnt what you thought it was and that maybe your house rule isn't needed because the supposition that created it is incorrect.

If people can not take a step back from their insistence that everything must be done by RAW.... even when someone admits that they are not using RAW... and give the points the critique they are asking for (if they are reasonable and make some in-setting logic)

None of yours did. That's kinda the point.

... then we have nothing further to discuss in this matter. You have all made the RAW perfectly clear... now step away from your rules and find any flaws with the reasoning I provided without resorting to RAW.

.... No. The flaws in your reasoning are solved by RAW. Why would i invent OTHER flaws?

Does it make sense for Atlanteans and Chiang-Ku dragons with their centuries of experience, to use tattoos at their normal costs regardless of the number they have?

Not really, no. They cost what they cost because that's what they cost. You dont learn to cast them for less PPE. No moreso than a mage learns to cast spells for less than his class allows.

Does it make sense that Sunaj would undergo intense and specialized training to allow them to use their tattoos without the need to touch them while in armor even if they are under 7th level?

No. I provided a reason for why. Sunaj are the best-of-the-best-of-the-best Aerihman has to offer. There should BE NO first level Sunaj out and about in the world. That apparently has been changed in Secrets, but its a thing i would disagree with. I'd never run Sunaj of low level before anyway. They are supposed to be dangerous as all hell.

Do the changes for the tattoos in SDC environments seem acceptable? While it is debatable which RAW should be enforced with regards to T-Men being supernatural... does my logic for my position have any flaws other than "Because Palladium Says So"?

Many, already pointed out by almost everyone.

Your attitude also sucks. Dont expect people to care what you want when you're a jerkwad. Enjoy ignore.

[kaid]

Given that the atlanteans ability to resist transformation was something they intentionally crafted in themselves during their wars with vampires it is not a huge stretch that when they were crafting that ability they did not want to mess with the improved abilities 6+ tattoos give and so the process was designed to permit it.

This was not some accidental evolutionary trait of atlanteans it was something they specifically created in their race specifically to help their war vs the undead.

[eliakon]

Does it make sense that Sunaj would undergo intense and specialized training to allow them to use their tattoos without the need to touch them while in armor even if they are under 7th level?

No. I provided a reason for why. Sunaj are the best-of-the-best-of-the-best Aerihman has to offer. There should BE NO first level Sunaj out and about in the world. That apparently has been changed in Secrets, but its a thing i would disagree with. I'd never run Sunaj of low level before anyway. They are supposed to be dangerous as all hell.

To be honest I would do BOTH. One of the first thing they teach their initiates is how to activate tattoos by will. Thus even in the super unlikely event of someone tracing a Sunaj back to a training facility somewhere even the students could fight with the same mysterious powers the Sunaj are known for... and activate their death tattoo with out needing to take of their armor (which I suspect they basically live in to get accustomed to never accidentally 'breaking character'

But until you demonstrate that your qualified your not going out the door.

Its sort of like the military. The Special forces are elites. They have to undergo rigorous selection processes and years of advanced training before they are considered worthy to even be put in an active special forces unit. But they all started out as in basic training just like every other soldier. I would imagine its the same for the Sunaj. They will train and drill for years or decades until they are considered good enough to be allowed to go along in a support capacity on raids. Then after years of THAT they will be promoted to being allowed to actually be on the raid itself. And eventually if they prove that they are really hardcore by Sunaj standards they get to go solo. So that guy wandering down the street in Atlantis is going to be feared because its probably a 100+ year old vetran with decades of combat experience under its belt and likely is north of level 9 never mind 7. And its going to probably have way more than the minimum tattoos since it will probably have received some in recognition of outstanding deeds or long flawless service in the same way that our militaries award medals.

[kaid]

I think the main reason sunaj can do the level 1 2 attack activation with thought is simply they are training for it harder than undead slayers do. Most undead slayers tend to go into combat minimally armed and equipped because frankly they have little need or desire for armor. If they were focused on wearing heavy full armor it is likely they could do the same thing but for the most part it is not something they focus on.

And fourth level for pretty much at will 1 attack to activate for undead slayers and sunaj seems pretty reasonable.


One nasty thing that helps explain why people don't know about who the sunaj really are is due to a new sunaj tattoo from secrets of atlantis. Basically every sunaj assassins has a tattoo self destruct option if they ever feel like they are or will be captured without an ability to escape they can blow up basically at will. It would be REALLY hard to stop somebody from doing it especially if you don't even realize they have the capability or how it works.

[Axelmania]

First the musings and house rules (not sure if any official ruling has been made on these).

1) All T-Men that gain more than 6 Tattoos are Supernatural Creatures... in that the magic of the tattoos becomes almost second nature to them. This means they use these Tattoos at the normal PPE costs (rather than the double cost for having 6 or less) and become MDC creatures. However... they do not gain Supernatural Strength or Endurance... and only recover MDC at the rate they recovered HP before hand.

Page 22 of the original Rifts Conversion Book mentions "M.D.C. is normally restored at a rate of 2D6 per day." under the "Converting an S.D.C. creature into a mega-damage structure (M.D.C.)" heading after the SNPS table.

I'm not sure if this still exists in the revised version. Closest section name I can find is "S.D.C. & Hit Points to M.D.C. for living beings" on page 25 but I'm not noticing a "2D6 per day" anywhere there.

If a GM wants to rule an omission of the 2D6/day means it is no longer canon, I guess that would give them flexibility to say that MDC beings do not heal at all unless they have a stated rate, or to substitute either HP rate or SDC rate as a house rule.

As of Secrets:
1) the statement is that "Due to the number of magic tattoos, they are considered supernatural beings with Supernatural P.S. and P.E., so their physical attacks inflict M.D. and hurt supernatural beings and Mega-Damage creatures"
This is in every Tattoo class and superceeds the previous text in the previous books implying that this is now canon for ALL tattoo classes for anyone, not just Atlantians.

Kind of weird how P.E. is included there, not like that's needed to inflict MD or hurt supernatural beings.

Also kinda implies you need SNPS to hurt supernatural beings, which is strange since you can use mundane MD attacks against many of them, or enhanced power-punches or robotic PS.

3) as per page 143 you must touch the image and skin itself to activate the image until level 7 or higher. IF you are a Tattooed Man. There is no provision provided for non Tattooed Men to gain this ability

Do you mean the Tattooed Man (T-Man) OCC specifically, or as a category including T-Monster Men, Maxi-Men, Sunaj, Undead Slayer, Monster Shaper, Chaing-Ku Tattoo Master?

4) On the question of PPE there are two answers. Answer one is in on Atlantis 85, that all tattoos cost double for anyone that is not a full tattooed man. Answer two though is that the SotA book does not seem to mention this at all and it is possible that this limitation was retconed out of existence. As I see it though it is more likely that this was simply an omission and the rule is still in effect as there is no explicit statement revoking it and simply not reprinting a rule does not invalidate it.

That's the approach I would take both for the doubled PPE and MDC beings healing 2D6/day.

6) on a follow up note, the fact that the monster shaping tattoo looks just like the monster, and that it is possible to create weapons made out of silver or wood, it would seem to follow that items at least do have the appearance of the replicated item itself, and it is only when the creation is animated as a 'living thing' that it is required to be the featureless grey ectoplasm. But that is just an inference from known canon and not AFAIK explicitly stated in canon.

Does sound like a raw deal that T-Monster Men can only do ectoplasm replicas while Monster Shapers can do perfect replicas. Maybe inhabiting your creation and being in constant contact with it allows that kind of superiority?

and only adds 6 to the PS of those with more than 6 tattoos for 30 PPE is also too costly.

an extra 6 PS is far from useless. Thats like 3-5 physical skills worth of PS. It could easily kick you over into the next damage range on SN PS, which can add several dice of damage.

It's especially advantageous for people with a PS of 15 or less, CBrevised pg 11 only allows MD punches on a power punch (2 actions) in that range. Moving to a range where it only costs you 1 attack to do MD is a major advantage.

I am guilty of viewing the tattoo as less useful only because I am prone to power-gaming with characters who have exceptional (PS16+) supernatural PS.

The jump from 4D6 SDC > 1D6 MD is huge compared to 1D6 MD > 2D6 MD or 5D6 MD > 6D6 MD.