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 Post subject: Rifts Bundle of Holding?
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:12 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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Palladium Books has a pretty significant library of awesome games. Now that the first 30 or so World Books for Rifts are up on DrivethruRPG (along with the Ultimate Edition, most of the Rifters, and a bunch of other titles), and with the recent success of the Rifts for Savage Worlds kickstarter (and their lightning-fast fulfillment of the digital rewards), I think it would be a great time to keep that momentum going with a Rifts-focused Bundle of Holding!

What is Bundle of Holding, you might ask? It's a website that provides bundles of PDF RPG material in a time-limited, pay-what-you-want method. Pay the basic price to get the starter bundle; pay over the threshold price (by however generous you're feeling) to get the basic bundle plus an additional expanded bundle. It's a cool way to get in to a new game or fill out your digital library. Often, these bundles are for a particular game line, but I've purchased some that were thematic instead. And the cherry on top? 10% of the profits are donated to a charity of the publisher's choice, whether local, international, or anything in between!

Often, there are three or four titles in the starter bundle, and five or six in the expanded bundle. As an incentive to buy early, most of the time an additional two or three titles are added to the expanded bundle over the course of the bundle's availability, but are provided to everybody who has purchased either starter or expanded bundle at the time the new titles are added.

Here's an example:
Classic Rifts Bundle wrote:
-Starter-
Rifts Main Book 1st Edition
Sourcebook One 1st Edition
Rifts Paper Miniatures: Adventurers

-Expanded-
Rifts World Book One: Vampire Kingdoms 1st Edition
Rifts World Book 10: Juicer Uprising
Rifts World Book 11: Coalition War Campaign
Rifts World Book 16: Federation of Magic
Rifts Game Master Kit
Rifts Paper Miniatures: Dead Boys
Rifts Game Shields and Adventures

-Additional Titles That May Be Added-
Rifts Paper Miniatures: Adventurers
Rifts Index & Adventures - Volume One
Rifts Index & Adventures - Volume Two
Additional World Books as desired


Another (concurrent?) example:
Shiny Rifts Bundle wrote:
-Starter-
Rifts Ultimate Edition
Rifts D-Bees of North America
Rifts Bionic Sourcebook

-Expanded-
Rifts World Book One: Vampire Kingdoms, New Revised Edition
Rifts Vampires Sourcebook
Rifts Aftermath
Best of the Rifter
Rifts Adventure Guide

-Additional Titles That May Be Added-
Rifts Game Master Guide
Rifts Book of Magic


You'll note that some of those titles are not currently available from DrivethruRPG. I've seen some bundles where a book debuts as part of the bundle, providing additional incentive for fans to buy now. I tried to get the value somewhere around $120, as that seems to be pretty typical of a bundle. The starter bundles usually range in price from $8-$12. The starting threshold prices usually start between $15-$30, going up over the length of the campaign as people pay over the threshold price.

I've had nothing but positive experiences from Bundle of Holding, and recommend bundles to my gaming group, family, and friends. I'd love to see Palladium Books get behind some bundles (especially if marketed towards the new Rifts for Savage Worlds fans) and keep the new Rifts momentum going!

Thoughts? Concerns? How do we help make this happen? What do you think would make a good starter bundle for Rifts? What would make a good expanded bundle for Rifts? Are there any Rifters that you would include that have content that might match the theme you're going for?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:56 pm
  

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Palladin

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Thoughts?

Ehh.

Ain't gonna happen.

Palladium has only recently begun expanding their PDF library with DriveTru, and are still geting caught up. Just over the last year or two. Before that they were stridently against it. Now that they're finally converting over, they're not going to suddenly offer bundles for free or 'pay what you want' or anything of the sort.

It'd be nice, but not likely to happen any time soon, if ever.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 11:07 am
  

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I wish I could disagree with PJ and not sound pessimistic. But as he says probably never ever going to happen imo.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:01 am
  

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It's a great idea! Someone should have the Bundle of Holding people contact Palladium.

The Bundle of Holding is a good way to get people to buy into a game line.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:39 am
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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Spinachcat wrote:
It's a great idea! Someone should have the Bundle of Holding people contact Palladium.

The Bundle of Holding is a good way to get people to buy into a game line.


I've emailed Allen Varney (the one who runs Bundle of Holding), and he said he's contacted Kevin in the past (GenCon 2014). He got the impression that Kevin was receptive to the idea, but hasn't heard back from follow ups since. I told Allen I'd try to see what kind of support I could drum up over on the forum, as a positive response from forum regulars might put the idea back on Kevin's radar. That was my purpose in posting the topic here.

As an optimistic spin, and to try to continue the line of thought of the OP, how would you organize a Bundle? It wouldn't necessarily have to be Rifts; I was just thinking that Rifts has momentum in the digital sphere at the moment, and it would be great to capitalize on it. Is there another game line you'd like to see? What would make a good bundle?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:45 am
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Now that they're finally converting over, they're not going to suddenly offer bundles for free or 'pay what you want' or anything of the sort.


I guess I wasn't as clear as I'd hoped. These bundles are similar, but not identical to Humble Bundle or DriveThru's option to make titles "Pay-what-you-want." There is a minimum price for the basic, starter bundles. Have you ever bought a Bundle of Holding?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 11:57 am
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Dreamstreamer wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Now that they're finally converting over, they're not going to suddenly offer bundles for free or 'pay what you want' or anything of the sort.


I guess I wasn't as clear as I'd hoped. These bundles are similar, but not identical to Humble Bundle or DriveThru's option to make titles "Pay-what-you-want." There is a minimum price for the basic, starter bundles. Have you ever bought a Bundle of Holding?


"Pay what you want" ends up with people paying little or nothing for the most part, with a few stand outs with discresionary income paying bigger chunks.

"Pay what you want' screams of 'I want free stuff' to me. And. Again it took years and years and YEARS For Kevin to finally embrace PDFs. We begged for years and years and YEARS and were told "NO!! PIRACY!!" even after Kevin/Palladium was told repeatedly their books were already out there if people WANTED to pirate them and that they were just denigying themselves money.

Kevin had a sit down with DriveTru guys at a con about a year or two a go and finally accepted PDFs

Since then, they HAVE been converting at a good clip (Something they also said was impossible, due to 'reasons') And I applaud that.

To expect them to suddenly let people pay nothing or small amounts for books they're just now starting to convert to PDF for sale is not realistic. Nor is it the sort of thing Palladium is down for.

I think we're extremely lucky that Palladium _IS_ Finally converting to PDF on many i not most of their titles.

This idea, while cute, isn't something that's going to happen.

As a rather cash poor person myself, it'd be great.

It's just not realistic for this company at this time.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:58 pm
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
"Pay what you want" ends up with people paying little or nothing for the most part, with a few stand outs with discresionary (sic) income paying bigger chunks.

"Pay what you want' screams of 'I want free stuff' to me.

[...]

To expect them to suddenly let people pay nothing or small amounts for books they're just now starting to convert to PDF for sale is not realistic.


Uh, none of the bundles have ever been free. I'm not sure where that idea keeps coming from, but it is a misrepresentation. As I suppose some people might be averse to actually following the links I provide to source examples, here is some of the text from a current bundle:

Bundle of Holding wrote:
Hero! The Serpent Kings have ordained this Dragon Warriors Bundle, featuring Dragon Warriors, the classic British tabletop roleplaying game by Dave Morris and Oliver Johnson about heroic sagas in the myth-drenched Lands of Legend. Originally published in the United Kingdom in the 1980s as six small but much-loved paperbacks by Corgi Books, Dragon Warriors is now a one-volume, 258-page rulebook published through Serpent King Games. This comprehensive all-new offer brings you almost the entire Dragon Warriors line -- everything you need for a complete heroic saga. Find out why a generation of British gamers keeps this beloved game alive.

For just US$12.95 you get all four books in our Starter Collection (retail value $44.50) as DRM-free .PDF ebooks, including the complete Dragon Warriors core rulebook (retail price $20), the Players Guide (retail $20), and the two short adventures The Knight's Tale (retail $2.50) and The Miller's Tale (retail $2).

And if you pay more than the threshold price of $20.10, you'll rise in rank and also get our entire Bonus Collection of six more supplements and adventures (retail value $60):

    * Dragon Warriors Bestiary (retail $10): Scores of creatures from the Lands of Legend, many unlike anything seen in other RPGs.
    * Friends or Foes (retail $10): Three dozen vivid nonplayer characters bring color to your campaign.
    * Cold Fury (retail $10): The full-length Fury of the Deep adventure along with many scenarios from the supplement In From the Cold.
    * Prince of Darkness (retail $10): A sourcebook and full-scale campaign set in the frozen and mountainous fief of Glissom.
    * Sleeping Gods (retail $10): A complete seven-part campaign that can lead novice adventurers on a path to power in the Lands of Legend.
    * NEW! The Elven Crystals (retail $10): Four linked adventures for beginning characters set in the troubled kingdom of Ereworn.

Learn more about our offers at our official blog, Beyond the Bundle.

The Good Fight
Ten percent of your payment (after payment gateway fees) will be donated to this offer's designated charity, Reading is Fundamental.

[...]

US$105 of RPG gold...
...But you pay just $12.95 for our Starter Collection of four complete .PDF ebooks, including the complete 2011 Dragon Warriors rulebook, the essential Players Guide, and two short adventures. And if you pay more than the current threshold price ($20.10), you'll rise in rank and also receive all the supplements in our Bonus Collection, including the Bestiary, the Friends or Foes collection of NPCs, and many scenarios.

[...]

How much will you give?
The tabletop roleplaying ebooks in this Dragon Warriors Bundle offer retail for US$105. Choose a price you like, in US dollars (minimum $12.95). Make sure you choose an amount greater than $20.10 to RISE IN RANK and gain the bonus titles.


A minimum means exactly that - the minimum that must be paid to get any titles. This is how it differs from "Pay-what-you-want" titles you might see on DriveThruRPG. Free (or $1, or anything less than the starter price) is not an option here.

Because I like to see numbers, I've trawled Bundle of Holding's twitter feed to scrape together some figures*. GOing back to the beginning of the year, here are the rough numbers I could aggregate:
46 offers (some were revivals of previous offers)
25,000+ bundles sold
$560,000+ total take across all bundles this year
Average number of bundles sold per offer - 500+
Average per offer - $12,000+
Average per bundle - ~$22.40

Which compares nicely to last years figures. Here's how 2015 went for Bundle of Holding:
53 offers (some were revivals of previous offers)
35000 bundles sold
Average number of bundles sold per offer - 701, with an average threshold price of $21.15
Over 72000 donated to charity
Top 3 most successful offers of 2015 - The Strange (2,203 bundles | $44,796), 13th Age (1,284 bundles | $45,561), and The One Ring (1,347 bundles | $43,238)

Those most successful offers did a fair amount of promoting, which is why I suggested leveraging Sean Patrick Fannon and the Rifts for Savage Worlds kickstarter backers. When Pinnacle releases the "Savaging Your Favorite Rifts Ideas" document to backers, if Palladium Books coordinates a Bundle of Holding at the same time, there will be a bunch of backers eager to try out the guidelines. I think that would be the ideal time for a cross-promotion to get kickstarter backers to buy Palladium Books material for use in their games. Palladium Books would want to make sure that Pinnacle provides some kind of notice as part of the kickstarter update that announces the availability of the "Savaging Your Favorite Rifts Ideas" document, send it out with the Palladium Books newsletter, see about promoting it on Pinnacle's web site, and get it advertised by Bundle of Holding, as well as slapping it up on the social media sites of all those involved. In the Bundle of Holding itself, I'd think they'd want to reference how Savage Worlds fans can use the bundle with Rifts for Savage Worlds and the "Savaging" document (with links to where both might be purchased).

I see such potential! Then again, I'm an unapologetic optimist.

Failing that, would it be terrible to try it out with their old library of Palladium Fantasy RPG titles? They might miss this golden opportunity to leverage the newness of Savage Rifts, but at least they could try it out.

*Here are the figures I collected:
Name (2x means there were two different bundles running simultaneously) | Number Sold | Total Take | Charitable Donation, when provided
--------------------------------------------------------------
Tribe 8 | 454 bundles | $10,664 | $1,066 to Make-A-Wish Intl.
2x Shadowrun 3E | 1,004 bundles | $22,129 | $2,110 to Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF)
Fat Dragon Terrain Sets | 944 bundles | $18,528 | $1,764 to Doctors Without Borders
Osprey Wargames | 576 bundles | $10,762 | $1,022 to Doctors Without Borders
Deadlands Noir | 817 bundles | $19,690 | ?
Hillfolk (Revived) | 654 bundles | $10,729 | $1,018 to Red Card
Lamentations Bundle | 1,601 bundles | $38,105 | $3,636 to The Myositis Association
Daring Tales | 391 bundles | $9,026 | $861 to Doctors Without Borders
2x GURPS Traveller | 782 bundles | $18,685 | $1,785 to Heifer Intl
Laundry Bundle (Revived) | 548 bundles | $13,922 | 1329 to EFF
Mongoose Legend | 397 bundles | $5,951 | $563 to Doctors Without Borders
ICONS | 495 bundles | $13,716 | ?
2x Exalted 1E | 490 bundles | $12,315 | $1,175 to Doctors Without Borders
Pulp Adventure | 408 bundles | $9,937 | $950 to EFF
Blue Planet | 511 bundles | $12,230 | $1,166 to Ocean Conservancy
Malhavoc Arcana | 344 bundles | $7,415 | ?
Ptolus (Revived) | 304 bundles | $7,996 | ?
Castle Falkenstein | 602 bundles | $12,256 | $1,163 to Reading is Fundamental
Brave New World | 400 bundles | $8,604 | $818 to Human Rights Watch
2x TORG (Revived) | 416 bundles | $9,475 | $905 to Doctors Without Borders
Mongoose Traveller | 416 bundles | $11,173 | $1,070 to EFF
Dungeon Crawlers | 802 bundles | $14,770 | $1,407 to Reading is Fundamental
Rocket Age | 702 bundles | $14,274 | $1,360 to Doctors Without Borders
Hackmaster | 497 bundles | $14,651 | $1,403 to Reading is Fundamental
OpenQuest | 530 bundles | $10,122 | $962 to EFF
Paranoia Classic | 888 bundles | $31,420 | ?
Land of Fire | 434 bundles | $9,623 | $917 to EFF
2x Ars Magica 5E | 1,014 bundles | $22,477 | ?
Castles & Crusades | 583 bundles | $12,616 | $1,203 to Heifer Intl
Shadows of Esteren | 734 bundles | $15,775 | $1,502 to Environmental Defense Fund
2x Werewolf | 607 bundles | $13,796 | ?
Osprey Adventures +2 | 402 bundles | $7,915 | $753 to Doctors Without Borders
2x Champions | 539 bundles | $12,831 | ?
Swords and Sorcerers | 480 bundles | $9,878 | $944 to Reading is Fundamental
Nest of Spies | 476 bundles | $9,878 | ?
Dungeon World + 2 | 1,617 bundles | $28,563 | ?
2x Traveller LBB | 2,305 bundles | $37,080 | ?
Mage 2e | 523 bundles | $14,436 | ?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:31 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Even if there's a minimum, and that minimum is 25% of the total, you're still asking palladium to give you the books at 1/4th the cost they're putting them up on Drivethru for, right as they start to use the PDFs.

It's not like Palladium's customer base is THAT BIG. They're not going to be selling 35,000 bundles. lol.

You want stuff for 75% off. Sure. we all do, but Palladium is only just now getting into PDFs. Expecting them to sell stuff at 75% off is not going to fly.

You should invest in their grab bags. All told (in country) after shipping you get stuff at about 50% off and that's a hell of a deal. (I get multiple every year)

But no. Even with your minimum set, palladium's not going to give you piles of things for 75% off just for the asking.

I understand the concept. I've also been a loyal customer of the company (Palladium) For literal decades.

It ain't gonna happen.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:50 pm
  

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Dungeon Crawler

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That's a sad way to spin things, Pepsi Jedi.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Even if there's a minimum, and that minimum is 25% of the total, you're still asking palladium to give you the books at 1/4th the cost they're putting them up on Drivethru for, right as they start to use the PDFs. [...] we all do, but Palladium is only just now getting into PDFs.


"[R]ight as they start to use the PDFs"!?! Checking DriveThruRPG, the original Rifts RPG was uploaded on there (and likely available) since April of 2009. Seven years they've been selling Rifts PDFs. How many more years will be required before they can escape your assertion that they are "just now getting into PDFs?"

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
It's not like Palladium's customer base is THAT BIG. They're not going to be selling 35,000 bundles. lol.


I never assumed they would, but a stimulus shot in the arm certainly wouldn't hurt. Just going by the averages, they're likely to sell between 400 and 600 bundles. After gateway fees and a generous donation to charity, they're still likely to bring in between $7,500 and $11,500. Considering Rifts "Electrum" status on DrivethruRPG (roughly 250-500 copies sold) and "Copper" on RPGNow (roughly 50-100 copies sold), I'd guess they'd have the potential to sell more copies in two weeks through a Bundle of Holding than they've done since it was first made available seven-and-a-half years ago. Admittedly, I'm working from second-hand information, which may not be accurate.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
You want stuff for 75% off. Sure. we all do, but Palladium is only just now getting into PDFs. Expecting them to sell stuff at 75% off is not going to fly.

[...]

But no. Even with your minimum set, palladium's not going to give you piles of things for 75% off just for the asking.

I understand the concept. I've also been a loyal customer of the company (Palladium) For literal decades.

It ain't gonna happen.


I'll assume the "you" used is the general, speculative you and not targeting me directly. As much as I like a good sale, I'm willing to pony up for my products. That said, I do find time-limited, deep discounts encourage me to make impulse buys. A number of the Bundles of Holding have swayed me; even if I wasn't completely sold on any individual title, the deal was too good to pass up! I pay just over the threshold (usually rounded to the closest $0.50), but there are a few buyers I consistently see make purchases early, and well over the threshold price. There are likely some that purchase the bundles, no matter the content. That means sales (and eyes) that would never have purchased the product otherwise. Anecdotally, Tracy Barnett (Indie RPG developer) commented on Twitter that having a title in a Bundle of Holding had the knock-on effect of increased sales for other titles offered at DriveThruRPG.

Based on the threshold price going up over the course of pretty much every offer I've seen, (many?) more people opt to pay over the threshold price than those that only pay the minimum. Interestingly, I've seen a few bundles (including a recent one put out by Pinnacle - Deadlands Noir) where the top one to three purchasers received something extra and exclusive, which throws a bit of bidding into the mix and pushes up threshold prices even faster.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
You should invest in their grab bags. All told (in country) after shipping you get stuff at about 50% off and that's a hell of a deal. (I get multiple every year)


While I can appreciate the grab bags, after two moves and buying up my library multiple times, I'm primarily (almost exclusively) a digital gamer now. Have they offered an equivalent to their grab bags for digital gamers? If so, I've missed them. A Palladium Books Bundle of Holding would, however, be similar to such a sale. Which is part of what puzzles me to your response.

If I had said two years ago that Palladium Books would license Rifts to a third-party, people would have responded with "It ain't gonna happen." I believe Palladium Books still has some surprises left in the tank. Why can't this be one of them? In other words, is there any reason why Palladium Books shouldn't do a Bundle of Holding?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:37 pm
  

Palladin

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they are pretty much just getting into PDFs.

oh, they've had out of print stuff in PDF for a while now. but anything that they thought they could sell in print, up until very recently they haven't put into PDF.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:42 pm
  

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I respectfully disagree. Palladium Books is not new to creating PDFs or selling them. They chose to start with out-of-print titles and previews, but have been pretty steady (especially over the last year or two) in releasing their back catalog. I imagine my idea of "very recently" differs from yours.

I've done what I can to bring up the topic, and put as much evidence as I can in support of the idea. Hopefully the golden opportunity is not missed when backers get the savaging Rifts ideas PDF. Even if it is missed, I'd still like to see Palladium Books get some of the good publicity that attends each Bundle of Holding. Palladium Fantasy (1st or 2nd edition), Splicers, Heroes Unlimited, Dead Reign, Chaos Earth, Nightbane, they'd all be pretty cool to see highlighted.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:27 pm
  

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PDFs are free money.

That's why the Bundle of Holding works. It's for people looking to check out a game line cheaply before deciding if they want the book, or for fans looking to round out their collection - usually getting PDFs of books they own. We aren't at the "PDF replacing books" stage for gaming yet - especially as most gamers don't use e-devices at the table, so PDF sales don't detract from dead tree sales. Of course, some gamers are paper free, but they are a minority.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:00 pm
  

Palladin

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i don't think anyone is suggesting that the PDFs will completely replace spending money on books.

what it will do is replace spending money on PDFs which are, relatively speaking, new products from palladium's perspective.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 12:37 pm
  

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Palladin

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Comment: 24 was the start... We are Legion.
Dreamstreamer wrote:
That's a sad way to spin things, Pepsi Jedi.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Even if there's a minimum, and that minimum is 25% of the total, you're still asking palladium to give you the books at 1/4th the cost they're putting them up on Drivethru for, right as they start to use the PDFs. [...] we all do, but Palladium is only just now getting into PDFs.


"[R]ight as they start to use the PDFs"!?! Checking DriveThruRPG, the original Rifts RPG was uploaded on there (and likely available) since April of 2009. Seven years they've been selling Rifts PDFs. How many more years will be required before they can escape your assertion that they are "just now getting into PDFs?"


Well this shows your ignorance of the actual history of palladium and PDFs. yes. they had a 'few' old, out of date books up as PDFs, for a while, but they've only in the past year or maybe two, started actually updating their PDF library and putting out books that wern't 5.. 10.. 20 years old.

That you don't know that, seems to imply that you're new to the forums as well as it was a looooooooooooooooooong running issue with Palladium and PDFs. people wanted books that wern't 20 years out of date as PDFs and for the longest time, Palladium wouldn't do it. It's only been recently, in palladium's history that they've finally embraced the PDF market.

For that, I applaude them. Granted it was years and years after the rest of the industry and years and years after we begged but hey. They're doing it 'now' which is good. But yes, they're still uploading new PDFs from their history every month. Check the press releases that go out each week. They're still working through their back catalog.

Dreamstreamer wrote:


Pepsi Jedi wrote:
It's not like Palladium's customer base is THAT BIG. They're not going to be selling 35,000 bundles. lol.


I never assumed they would, but a stimulus shot in the arm certainly wouldn't hurt.


When numbers are given based off 36,000 bundles sold, the implication is there. Palladium doesn't have that sort of player base. It's an inflated number, night on hyperbolic.

Dreamstreamer wrote:

Just going by the averages, they're likely to sell between 400 and 600 bundles.


What average? Where are you getting that number from? Based on what information? It's nice to throw out there but what evidence do you hve that it's possible or even likely? Do you understand the size of print runs on palladium's current books?

Dreamstreamer wrote:

After gateway fees and a generous donation to charity, they're still likely to bring in between $7,500 and $11,500.


Because you say so? And how much are they going to LOSE if they do the bundle? At minimum payment they'd be netting 25% of what they would normally get. Take out a generous donation to charity and what? 15% of money recouped on books? Better to have less sales and recoup 100% of profits. Not for nothing but you're asking for them to take under 25% cost on this to start. taking out money for charity and stuff puts them down to what 20? 15? 10%?? They could sell, literally 1/4th the amount of books and do better.

Dreamstreamer wrote:

Considering Rifts "Electrum" status on DrivethruRPG (roughly 250-500 copies sold) and "Copper" on RPGNow (roughly 50-100 copies sold), I'd guess they'd have the potential to sell more copies in two weeks through a Bundle of Holding than they've done since it was first made available seven-and-a-half years ago. Admittedly, I'm working from second-hand information, which may not be accurate.


I think yo're overlooking a number of key factors while asking for your stuff for free or at 75% discount.

Dreamstreamer wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:
You want stuff for 75% off. Sure. we all do, but Palladium is only just now getting into PDFs. Expecting them to sell stuff at 75% off is not going to fly.

[...]

But no. Even with your minimum set, palladium's not going to give you piles of things for 75% off just for the asking.

I understand the concept. I've also been a loyal customer of the company (Palladium) For literal decades.

It ain't gonna happen.


I'll assume the "you" used is the general, speculative you and not targeting me directly.


For the most part yes.

Dreamstreamer wrote:


As much as I like a good sale, I'm willing to pony up for my products [/quote

Then I would highly suggest you do so, and support palladium selling PDFs so that we get more. :)

Dreamstreamer wrote:

That said, I do find time-limited, deep discounts encourage me to make impulse buys.


Yeah I'll bet. If all the stuff was one QUARTER of what it normally goes for. It's going to sell a bit better, but the loss is going to be very dramatic for palladium if they do. Remember these aren't new books. These are books that for the most case have been out YEARS if not literal DECADES. Anyone that's buying them is doing it out of love of the company. If they don't love the company, they can get them all for 'free' if they so chose. People aren't sitting around going 'man I really NEED that Palladium PDF but it's just too darn expensive'

Dreamstreamer wrote:


A number of the Bundles of Holding have swayed me; even if I wasn't completely sold on any individual title, the deal was too good to pass up! I pay just over the threshold (usually rounded to the closest $0.50), but there are a few buyers I consistently see make purchases early, and well over the threshold price.


And I pointed out those types above. Other than a select few with large amounts of discretionary income, people are going to get them for the absolute cheepest they can. I know there's the few people that will front the big money. you see them in Kickstaters all the time. Palladium has a couple of fans like that. In their kickstarters they've had the big option a few times and one or two people buy them.

That doesn't change the fact that 99% of the people are going to pay nothing, or if there's a minimum, that exact minimum or... yeah.. fifty cent more. Those few spikes don't make up for the 75% loss you're asking them to eat.

Dreamstreamer wrote:


There are likely some that purchase the bundles, no matter the content. That means sales (and eyes) that would never have purchased the product otherwise. Anecdotally, Tracy Barnett (Indie RPG developer) commented on Twitter that having a title in a Bundle of Holding had the knock-on effect of increased sales for other titles offered at DriveThruRPG.


Where those increased sales on books 20 years old? I'm not being snarky. I'm honestly asking. Again Palladium's PDFs (Even as they catch up) Aren't for new items or new books. They're for books that have, for the most part been out a decade.. 15... 20.. 25 years. They're only now starting to catch up.

Much of the (Current) PDF sales are from long time fans. people that have played palladium for years and have begged for PDFs for years for the ABILITY to pay palladium for... what they could have gotten for free should they ever have tried. I.E. people that want to support the company. It's not a sudden influx of new players out of the blue rushing to play palladium cold having never done so before.

Dreamstreamer wrote:

Based on the threshold price going up over the course of pretty much every offer I've seen, (many?) more people opt to pay over the threshold price than those that only pay the minimum.


But you don't know. You don't honestly know. You're just speculating and throwing out at best layman observation. Do you have any proof that 'many' people opt to pay over the threasholds and how much?

Dreamstreamer wrote:

Interestingly, I've seen a few bundles (including a recent one put out by Pinnacle - Deadlands Noir) where the top one to three purchasers received something extra and exclusive, which throws a bit of bidding into the mix and pushes up threshold prices even faster.


It's not that interesting. Kickstarters have been doing it for years. you're going to have the two or three people that go for such things, but are far out numbered by people wanting crap for cheep.

Dreamstreamer wrote:


Pepsi Jedi wrote:
You should invest in their grab bags. All told (in country) after shipping you get stuff at about 50% off and that's a hell of a deal. (I get multiple every year)


While I can appreciate the grab bags, after two moves and buying up my library multiple times, I'm primarily (almost exclusively) a digital gamer now.


Well that's a choice you've made. Personally I don't spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on something to throw it away 'Multiple times' as I see that as..... less than intelligent, but that's me.

Dreamstreamer wrote:


Have they offered an equivalent to their grab bags for digital gamers? If so, I've missed them. A Palladium Books Bundle of Holding would, however, be similar to such a sale. Which is part of what puzzles me to your response.


No they haven't. Because palladium is just now acknowledging that there are digital gamers. For YEARS man they wouldn't produce PDFs. There are posts from people at Palladium that said they wouldn't due to piracy. Even after it'd been shown that it wouldn't matter all the books were already out there pirated if people WANTED to do that. There was even one put out, by.... I believe it was Alex but it may have been one of the other staffers, that said PDFs and Digital books were just a fad. That Palladium thought it'd blow over and it wouldn't benifit them to invest in what clearly was fad technology and wouldn't last.

They ---refused--- to embrace PDFs for a long long time. YEARS. we begged. We pleaded. We were mostly ignored.

Finally a year, maybe 2 ago ( I forget the exact date) Kevin finally sat down with someone from Drivethru at a convention. A light bulb went on and now, Palladium's putting more and more of the catalog out in PDF. It's taking a while to catch up as they have 25+ years of back stock to get up but they're actually doing it pretty fast all told, but they're still not caught up.

So MOST of the books palladium is having up as PDFs are 'new' to the PDF market (legally) so they've not put them out at huge discount yet. Nor would I expect them to any time soon, due to how they were drug, finally, kicking screaming into the market after so many years.

Dreamstreamer wrote:

If I had said two years ago that Palladium Books would license Rifts to a third-party, people would have responded with "It ain't gonna happen." I believe Palladium Books still has some surprises left in the tank. Why can't this be one of them? In other words, is there any reason why Palladium Books shouldn't do a Bundle of Holding?


75% loss of profit for products they've just now started to sell online, that if it DID happen would pretty much neuter future sales of those products indefinately. Again Palladium's not spinning on 1000s of new players. The people buying Palladium now have been playing palladium for years and years. They've GOT these books. Physical and if they WANTED them PDf already. People paying for them now are doing so to support the company due to loyalty.

If you throw it out at 75% off, people might buy them now. Sure, but then they're bought and that's it. You don't buy PDF's multiple times. you can down load them 100 times from Drive Thru if you want (As if you couldn't just copy them on your own computer)

You're asking for really cheep PDFs. Which is nice in theory but asking the company to eat that loss in money out of the goodness of their hearts.
Knowing the history of the company
the history they've had with PDFs
the history with Amazon. etc.

I do not think it'll happen.

they could surprise me. They could make a 'digital christmas grab bag" it's possible. I do not expect it. they HAVE been doing lots of sales lately (That people are sometimes attributing to desperation on the company's part. I'm not sure about that, but many are saying they're gasping for air with it. I hope that's not true) So it might happen.

It would just be hugely out of character if it did.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:12 am
  

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I could see some sort of starter/intro bundle for various games, but that is about all I see. I would prefer PB using one of their existing PDF distribution partners for a "sale" on core books, but that's just me.

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Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:17 pm
  

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Yes they have PDFs it took forever for them to do so. Fans asked, begged and plead to no avail. My personal opinion is that the only reason we finally saw more more and newer titles in PDF form. Is because despite the initial resistance they need money. As well Pinnacle who does Savage Rifts was not going to pattern with PB to release a only print version of the rpg. So from a business standpoint it would make little to no sense for Pinnacle to release their product in PDF and not PB. It's easy to call some of us pessimistic. Yet we have very good reason to be imo. They once went on record saying that they were unable to do a Facebook page. As it would be too hard and time consuming. Yet went back on that when a fan created a unofficial version. Easy and quickly. PB is very resistant to change. So we may see a PB Bag of Holding yet I think I will see 2-3 blue moon first.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:23 pm
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Dreamstreamer wrote:
Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Now that they're finally converting over, they're not going to suddenly offer bundles for free or 'pay what you want' or anything of the sort.


I guess I wasn't as clear as I'd hoped. These bundles are similar, but not identical to Humble Bundle or DriveThru's option to make titles "Pay-what-you-want." There is a minimum price for the basic, starter bundles. Have you ever bought a Bundle of Holding?


"Pay what you want" ends up with people paying little or nothing for the most part, with a few stand outs with discresionary income paying bigger chunks.

"Pay what you want' screams of 'I want free stuff' to me. And. Again it took years and years and YEARS For Kevin to finally embrace PDFs. We begged for years and years and YEARS and were told "NO!! PIRACY!!" even after Kevin/Palladium was told repeatedly their books were already out there if people WANTED to pirate them and that they were just denigying themselves money.

Kevin had a sit down with DriveTru guys at a con about a year or two a go and finally accepted PDFs

Since then, they HAVE been converting at a good clip (Something they also said was impossible, due to 'reasons') And I applaud that.

To expect them to suddenly let people pay nothing or small amounts for books they're just now starting to convert to PDF for sale is not realistic. Nor is it the sort of thing Palladium is down for.

I think we're extremely lucky that Palladium _IS_ Finally converting to PDF on many i not most of their titles.

This idea, while cute, isn't something that's going to happen.

As a rather cash poor person myself, it'd be great.

It's just not realistic for this company at this time.


Have to agree with PJ.

Despite the weekly newsletter saying 1-2 titles a week, there was a 3-4 month period earlier this year where nothing was added. And the Rifters have stopped at 67 as well as Heroes of Humanity isn't yet available... Like many of my fellow long time fans, I don't have room to add more paper books (in fact, checking condition to start selling my collection of mostly 1st eds for move prep).

So I don't see Palladium allowing anything further than what they're doing now with DTRPG, which is about 40-50% off current paper cover price. Maybe a theme bundle which saves perhaps an extra $5-10.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:32 pm
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
Even if there's a minimum, and that minimum is 25% of the total, you're still asking palladium to give you the books at 1/4th the cost they're putting them up on Drivethru for, right as they start to use the PDFs.

It's not like Palladium's customer base is THAT BIG. They're not going to be selling 35,000 bundles. lol.

You want stuff for 75% off. Sure. we all do, but Palladium is only just now getting into PDFs. Expecting them to sell stuff at 75% off is not going to fly.

You should invest in their grab bags. All told (in country) after shipping you get stuff at about 50% off and that's a hell of a deal. (I get multiple every year)

But no. Even with your minimum set, palladium's not going to give you piles of things for 75% off just for the asking.

I understand the concept. I've also been a loyal customer of the company (Palladium) For literal decades.

It ain't gonna happen.


Amen. Can't tell you how many grab bags I've gotten to keep my collection current or replace worn copies. I think all but 3 years, I've gotten at least one?
This year I've got the afore mentioned necessary reduction in paper, but may have to suck up the continued need to get paper while waiting for PB to release the PDF. Good for getting extra copies for new players, or for players to borrow/use

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Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:42 pm
  

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Pepsi Jedi wrote:
[

they could surprise me. They could make a 'digital christmas grab bag" it's possible. I do not expect it. they HAVE been doing lots of sales lately (That people are sometimes attributing to desperation on the company's part. I'm not sure about that, but many are saying they're gasping for air with it. I hope that's not true) So it might happen.

It would just be hugely out of character if it did.


Agreed. Not likely, but we can hope.

I'd be all over a digital grab bag. Would definitely buy multiple. I have been slowly converting my paper library (95% of the PB lifetime catalog). It annoys and saddens me that I can't get core books legally. But in the meantime, I'd happily get a digital grab bag with themed contents.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:49 pm
  

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Now for a different idea......PB themed shipping container to store/ship paper books...

The only other thing I've come up with is cheap versions of RPGs that are going to be 2nd editioned. Still runs a risk of cutting new version sales, but might get some traction. But only once I see BtSN finished...

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Unread postPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 3:34 am
  

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I've bought 6 Bundles of Holding thus far, if I remember correctly. In all cases, I was never going to buy the game without seeing it first, and I preferred giving a smaller portion of money to the company, in addition to some to charity, than just torrenting them to see if I liked them. In 2 of those cases, I subsequently bought additional PDFs for the games and if I could convince my RPG group to broaden their horizons, there's a couple of others I'd love to go all-in on but my players are too fantasy-focused. No Numenera for me. :(

Bundles shouldn't be seen as lost money, they should be seen as promotion. They offer a low barrier of entry to a game that someone might have been curious about a game but hesitant to spend full-price on. They are the "first hit that's (almost) free". Now, I don't get the impression that Palladium would be a company that would take the plunge on something like Bundle of Holding, but it would be a good way to get their name outside of their core devoted fanbase a little more. I'd happily buy a Palladium Fantasy bundle just to have the books I already own in PDF format as well. And while I have Dead Reign's core book, I don't have the interested players to try it, but I'd love to read the expansions if they price was reasonable. A Dead Reign bundle would have my support, too.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:53 pm
  

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BoH is a promotional thing, and I can see why its popular.

Has anyone approached AlexM or Kevin with this idea?

Any feedback?


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:25 pm
  

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Just received my Savaging Your Favorite Rifts Ideas pdf from the Savage Rifts Kickstarter. Ideal cross-promotional opportunity? Missed.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:47 am
  

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If you're this adamit talk to Kevin, talk to Alex. I don't see it happening past a very limited set of books as an intro, per my earlier post, but I think it is great as a promo.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:21 am
  

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The last few posts grasp the purpose of BoHs.

It is mainly promotional and a way to get new players into your products. It is not generally for existing players...although a surprising number may buy in to fill out the library or to legally buy things they may have otherwise downloaded.

I have purchased a few bundles myself to check out a few lines.

In particular I now buy in paper Trail of Cthulhu and Savage Worlds in paper(SW may have been a pay what u want that got me started...but was certainly long before savage rifts).

IMO...a decent bundle that will likely not impact significantly any drive through sales would be:

Level 1
Rifts Main 1st ed
Rifter 74 or 75 with the primer adventure(this must be there...not optional)
1 or 2 select world books
1 or 2 other rifters...I would recommend recent ones

Level 2 a
RUE (yes...RUE)
3 or 4 select world books
monsters
adventures
maybe a couple more rifters

Level 2 b
The Rifter bundle....all rifters up to say year 2000.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:52 pm
  

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I know I've already posted about this in another thread, but I'm happy to see this has been made reality and don't want to tie up the other thread with additional speculation.

https://bundleofholding.com/presents/Rifts

Starter Collection - $17.95
Rifts® Ultimate Edition™
Rifts® Sourcebook One™
Rifts® Game Master Kit

Bonus Collection
Juicer Uprising™
Psyscape™
New West™
MercTown™


They've since added Machinations of Doom™ to the bonus collection. I'm pretty happy with the choices so far. Looking at the general theme, I'm hoping that Federation of Magic or Spirit West are added next. Maybe both by the end? What do you think will get added next?

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:39 pm
  

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Hi Dreamstreamer! I'm glad you are liking our first Bundle of Holding offer.

For those who don't know what Bundle of Holding is and don't want to read through all the posts in this thread, the official announcement about it will be in the Weekly Update that should go live later tomorrow.

Hope everyone enjoys it!

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 11:33 am
  

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Second book added: Rifts Game Master Guide. W00T!

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:56 am
  

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I sprang for the big bundle. I don't think I've bought a Rifts book since 1990! It is a pretty cool idea if you want to introduce someone to a new genre. Truth be told, I don't think you can ever replace the feel of a tangible book in your hands, though. When you get so much for so little, it's hard to pass up.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 10:20 am
  

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Glad to hear people are liking the Bundle!

Just so everyone knows, the good people at Bundle of Holding generally add a few new titles to the bundle as time goes on (such as the Game Master Guide). For those who buy before the new titles are added, they get those automatically added to what they can download, so no need to worry about having to buy them separately. And yes, there will be one or two more titles added before the end of the sale - but I'm not gonna tell ya what - want to leave that surprise for them to reveal. ;) :lol:

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 12:55 pm
  

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Next book added: Book of Magic!

This deal keeps getting better and better!

Edit: Any chance you can suggest a few titles that won't be featured in the bundle? I'd like to take advantage of the current Christmas in July sale on DTRPG, and it ends before the bundle.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 2:36 pm
  

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Dreamstreamer wrote:
Edit: Any chance you can suggest a few titles that won't be featured in the bundle? I'd like to take advantage of the current Christmas in July sale on DTRPG, and it ends before the bundle.


You'll be safe with World Books (except the ones already in the bundle :-) ) and Dimension Books for the remainder of this bundle. :wink:

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:10 pm
  

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Scott Gibbons wrote:
You'll be safe with World Books (except the ones already in the bundle :-) ) and Dimension Books for the remainder of this bundle. :wink:

Thanks, Scott, I'll see about sending some more money Palladium's way, and look forward to the next bundle!

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:11 pm
  

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Scott, speaking of sending money Palladium's way, I have a question:

What method of sales helps Palladium out more? In other words, would the company rather we purchase directly from the website, from DTRPG, FLGSs, bookstores selling new product on Amazon, etc? (Obviously, used product from Amazon or eBay doesn't put any money in your pocket) If I know the method that's best for Palladium, I'll likely go that route as opposed to trying to save a dollar. I'm sure there are others out there who feel the same way.

If offering a response to that question would compromise Palladium's relationship with other companies that distribute Palladium product, that's completely understandable. Thanks!

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:22 pm
  

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Jack Burton wrote:
Scott, speaking of sending money Palladium's way, I have a question:

What method of sales helps Palladium out more? In other words, would the company rather we purchase directly from the website, from DTRPG, FLGSs, bookstores selling new product on Amazon, etc? (Obviously, used product from Amazon or eBay doesn't put any money in your pocket) If I know the method that's best for Palladium, I'll likely go that route as opposed to trying to save a dollar. I'm sure there are others out there who feel the same way.

If offering a response to that question would compromise Palladium's relationship with other companies that distribute Palladium product, that's completely understandable. Thanks!


Great question! The answer is a not as straightforward as it may seem. Hmm, I think you just gave me the topic for my next Murmur! :D Which is overdue - yikes, where does the time go!

Look for this to post in the next day or two.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:55 pm
  

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Scott Gibbons wrote:
Glad to hear people are liking the Bundle!

Just so everyone knows, the good people at Bundle of Holding generally add a few new titles to the bundle as time goes on (such as the Game Master Guide). For those who buy before the new titles are added, they get those automatically added to what they can download, so no need to worry about having to buy them separately. And yes, there will be one or two more titles added before the end of the sale - but I'm not gonna tell ya what - want to leave that surprise for them to reveal. ;) :lol:


if i were a betting man, i'd probably guess the bionics sourcebook, since it looks like you're somewhat aiming for stuff that'll give something of an overview :P


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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:16 pm
  

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Glad to see something came of this.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:17 pm
  

D-Bee

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Greetings!

I just received the news about the Rifts Bundle of Holding and I was quite glad to hear about it. While I have never been able to play on a long Rifts campaign (played on a couple that burned out two or three sessions in and one that never even got a single session), I am still a fan of the game.

Unfortunately, when I was reading the page, I saw that 10% of the proceedings will go to the Doctors without Borders.


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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:16 am
  

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Is that bad?

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Unread postPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:24 pm
  

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AlexAB wrote:
Greetings!

I just received the news about the Rifts Bundle of Holding and I was quite glad to hear about it. While I have never been able to play on a long Rifts campaign (played on a couple that burned out two or three sessions in and one that never even got a single session), I am still a fan of the game.

Unfortunately, when I was reading the page, I saw that 10% of the proceedings will go to the Doctors without Borders.


And that is bad, why?

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Unread postPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:27 pm
  

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What's this on the horizon? A Palladium Fantasy Bundle of Holding perhaps?
https://twitter.com/BundleHolding/status/892444819531993088

Edit: Of course, then they could add the Conversion Book as part of the Rifts Bundle, and go over the top! But they're not crazy enough to do that...are they?

Edit 2: And here it is!
https://bundleofholding.com/presents/PalladiumFRPG

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Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:17 am
  

D-Bee

Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:11 am
Posts: 3
I often buy bundles of books that I already have in print because I like to have both print and pdf versions of books. (Because we rarely play at my place and my 8" Lenovo tablet weighs a lot less than a single RPG book, let alone 5, 10, 20 or 50 RPG books ...)

I got the Rifts bundle (delighted that it was mostly books that I already own) and I got the new PFRPG bundle as well.


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Unread postPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:50 pm
  

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Adventurer

Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2000 1:01 am
Posts: 431
Location: Woodbridge, VA USA (S of Wash DC)
Dreamstreamer wrote:
What's this on the horizon? A Palladium Fantasy Bundle of Holding perhaps?
https://twitter.com/BundleHolding/status/892444819531993088

Edit: Of course, then they could add the Conversion Book as part of the Rifts Bundle, and go over the top! But they're not crazy enough to do that...are they?

Edit 2: And here it is!
https://bundleofholding.com/presents/PalladiumFRPG


Shame it's all 1st ed. Would have jumped all over 2nd ed.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:54 pm
  

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Champion

Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:13 am
Posts: 2153
Location: Sekti-Abtu
Comment: Check out our Twitch stream!
Myrrhibis wrote:
Dreamstreamer wrote:
What's this on the horizon? A Palladium Fantasy Bundle of Holding perhaps?
https://twitter.com/BundleHolding/status/892444819531993088

Edit: Of course, then they could add the Conversion Book as part of the Rifts Bundle, and go over the top! But they're not crazy enough to do that...are they?

Edit 2: And here it is!
https://bundleofholding.com/presents/PalladiumFRPG


Shame it's all 1st ed. Would have jumped all over 2nd ed.

2nd edition has not been digitized yet

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