A Case for Chipwell Products

[slade2501]

Well, lets begin by saying that I am a WWII buff, and have studied extensively on several topics there-in, from military equipment, key battles, supply chains and the war on the homefront. Its allot, but its a hobby. While I do not profess to be an expert, I am no amateur.

So, I put forth the idea, that Chipwell Challenger armor, is the Sherman Tank of Power armors. In WWII, the US needed a good speed medium tank, to fight it out with early production German tanks (especially in Egypt). The Sherman had good land speed, solid armor and a 75mm low velocity gun. All well and good until the tiger tank shot through one side and right out the other. The Sherman tank was SERIOUSLY under-powered compared to the average German line tank, and had to sell kills at a 5-1 or worse ratio. The Challenger is the same, when compared to most NG, Triax and CS power armors.

Now, the Challenger power armor, at 120 MDC is no power house. It offers less protection than the Triax Terrain Hopper, the NG Gladius Exoskeleton and several other light power armors. It carries no onboard weapons. But, it offers about 65-70 percent of that protection for 10 percent of the price. It has good ground speed, offers enhanced strength and mobility to the trooper wearing it. It keeps the human weapon system inside alive long enough to fire at the enemy.
It allows a troop of men to concentrate their throw weight.

Throw Weight is the concept of having a higher number of troopers that can fire weapons. A force Multiplier, if you will. The Math is terribly simple. Hire one man in a SAMSON suit, with 1d6x10md and his 5-6 attacks per round with 250MDC. Hire 8-10 men in Challenger armor, with plasma or laser pulse weapons (1d6x10md or 6d6md) with 4-6 attacks PER MAN/PER TURN, with 8-10 targets of 120MDC EACH. Send 8-10 men after one and it wont matter how heavy his armor is. Massed fire is the great equalizer. Hell, that squad could menace a UAR-1 Enforcer if they spread out and took cover from its missile capabilities.
With proper tactics and cover, most of that 8-10 man team would even survive. To return home to their families and farms/businesses they don the armor to defend.
Any sane man (the SAMAS pilot) would not try his odds against a full squad of troopers, even in a solid PA. The risk is too high, and he's not paid to be suicidal or to have his lively hood, his PA, destroyed in a Pyrrhic victory.

Which is why Chipwell Arms is the perfect gear and equipment for non-player characters, or characters who **** in "expert" mode. These weapons are MADE for militia, for the citizen soldier. The Sherman tank of power armor, with good speed and ok armor but under gunned and outmatched by the superior quality German tanks.

A city or town of three to five thousand people, with average food production, trade or amenities could raise the money for a company (90-120 men) armed with Challenger suits, compared to 8-10 PA in the million credit plus range, or even the cheapest robot units (6-10 million per). Add in the usual hand help weapons (plasma, laser, ion, particle beam, mini-missiles) and with enough food and supplies a city could field an army that would give the CS brief pause, or send off any raiders, simvan, brodkill or Splugorth slavers.

With gun emplacements, earthworks or bunkers, trenches, minefields, MD razorwire and other such support, a group of "Cheapwell" armed troops could quite possibly chew any attacking force to bits.

[eliakon]

Well, lets begin by saying that I am a WWII buff, and have studied extensively on several topics there-in, from military equipment, key battles, supply chains and the war on the homefront. Its allot, but its a hobby. While I do not profess to be an expert, I am no amateur.

So, I put forth the idea, that Chipwell Challenger armor, is the Sherman Tank of Power armors. In WWII, the US needed a good speed medium tank, to fight it out with early production German tanks (especially in Egypt). The Sherman had good land speed, solid armor and a 75mm low velocity gun. All well and good until the tiger tank shot through one side and right out the other. The Sherman tank was SERIOUSLY under-powered compared to the average German line tank, and had to sell kills at a 5-1 or worse ratio. The Challenger is the same, when compared to most NG, Triax and CS power armors.

Now, the Challenger power armor, at 120 MDC is no power house. It offers less protection than the Triax Terrain Hopper, the NG Gladius Exoskeleton and several other light power armors. It carries no onboard weapons. But, it offers about 65-70 percent of that protection for 10 percent of the price. It has good ground speed, offers enhanced strength and mobility to the trooper wearing it. It keeps the human weapon system inside alive long enough to fire at the enemy.
It allows a troop of men to concentrate their throw weight.

Throw Weight is the concept of having a higher number of troopers that can fire weapons. A force Multiplier, if you will. The Math is terribly simple. Hire one man in a SAMSON suit, with 1d6x10md and his 5-6 attacks per round with 250MDC. Hire 8-10 men in Challenger armor, with plasma or laser pulse weapons (1d6x10md or 6d6md) with 4-6 attacks PER MAN/PER TURN, with 8-10 targets of 120MDC EACH. Send 8-10 men after one and it wont matter how heavy his armor is. Massed fire is the great equalizer. Hell, that squad could menace a UAR-1 Enforcer if they spread out and took cover from its missile capabilities.
With proper tactics and cover, most of that 8-10 man team would even survive. To return home to their families and farms/businesses they don the armor to defend.
Any sane man (the SAMAS pilot) would not try his odds against a full squad of troopers, even in a solid PA. The risk is too high, and he's not paid to be suicidal or to have his lively hood, his PA, destroyed in a Pyrrhic victory.

Which is why Chipwell Arms is the perfect gear and equipment for non-player characters, or characters who **** in "expert" mode. These weapons are MADE for militia, for the citizen soldier. The Sherman tank of power armor, with good speed and ok armor but under gunned and outmatched by the superior quality German tanks.

A city or town of three to five thousand people, with average food production, trade or amenities could raise the money for a company (90-120 men) armed with Challenger suits, compared to 8-10 PA in the million credit plus range, or even the cheapest robot units (6-10 million per). Add in the usual hand help weapons (plasma, laser, ion, particle beam, mini-missiles) and with enough food and supplies a city could field an army that would give the CS brief pause, or send off any raiders, simvan, brodkill or Splugorth slavers.

With gun emplacements, earthworks or bunkers, trenches, minefields, MD razorwire and other such support, a group of "Cheapwell" armed troops could quite possibly chew any attacking force to bits.

^this so much this^
For further cost savings you can use things like Ram Jet ammunition, Recoilless Rifles, Grenades, Vibro-Weapons, and other low cost (and often rejected by PCs as 'to low damage') weapons.
Its also perfect for MD police forces. Sort of the E-Swat or ADP (to borrow from some Anime). They can engage a minor MD threat (say a drunk mercenary with a weapon, or a light borg)...
...but they can't exactly run off with it.
The system needs a logistical tail that you cant steal.
And if someone DOES steal a suit, its not crippling to the milita/police/whatever

Another wonderful advantage of these suits is that they are cheap enough that you can afford to have enough to let your people actually train on them. You can do opposition force training, and the like...
...so you have a wider range of potential militia members than if you have a nigh-priceless suit that consumes a tenth of the budget.

Another thing to remember is that if you have access to a single TW in your community and that your community accepts magic you can put a few TW mods on each suit.
This can be another selling point as you can afford to diversify and customize certain suits for more specialized roles than if you only have a couple suits and thus every suit will need the same cookie cutter mods to maximize utility.

[Axelmania]

Fully agree with you. Of course it is even cheaper to get big numbers with just body armor. The unlimited shots is worth the nuke battery...

Naruni forcefields are the icing though.

[slade2501]

my only problem with ramjet rounds and the like is the ammo gets prohibitive when compared to energy clips and a good Operator with some parts and luck (home built e-clip charger anyone?).

[eliakon]

my only problem with ramjet rounds and the like is the ammo gets prohibitive when compared to energy clips and a good Operator with some parts and luck (home built e-clip charger anyone?).

The ammo is not as expensive as people think...
...you can train with regular ammunition, you just use the expensive stuff (explosive bullets, ram-jets, ect) in actual combat situations.
And E-clips are expensive, even setting aside recharging costs, each clip is 5,000 cr or more.
Where as you can have dozens of pre-loaded magazines ready for the same price. And as an added bonus, you get more shots (in combat, where it counts) and if someone falls, they can hand off their clips to another trooper easily.

I would not totally abandon energy weapons of course...
But I would build something like this:

Spoiler:

Command unit:
1 CO
1 XO
2 Medics
4 Staff

First Platoon
1 Lt
1 Heavy (AGL)
1 Support (machine gun)
Fire team 1
-3 troopers with Assault rifles
-1 trooper with laser rifle
Fire Team 2
-3 troopers with assault rifle
-trooper with plasma rifle

Second Platoon
-Heavy is a Mini Missile Launcher

Third Platoon
-Heavy is a AGL
-Support is a Flamethrower

Fourth Platoon
Same as First

Issue out some light MD melee weapons, and hand grenades and the entire cost of the whole unit, with ammunition for days of combat is still less than buying two suits of regular power armor.

[Jefffar]

Chipwell is a great example of quantity being a quality all its own. But one should remember these suits need the Pilot Robots and Power Armour skill to operate.

Depending on the loadout and capabilities of the force you are looking to field additional specialized skills may be required. So while you can have a lot of suits, these won't necessarily be everyday grunts using them.

[eliakon]

Chipwell is a great example of quantity being a quality all its own. But one should remember these suits need the Pilot Robots and Power Armour skill to operate.

Depending on the loadout and capabilities of the force you are looking to field additional specialized skills may be required. So while you can have a lot of suits, these won't necessarily be everyday grunts using them.

That is actually debatable...
The Challenger for example is described as an Exo...
...which the Gladius (in the same book) says doesn't need a piloting skill for.

[Zamion138]

Body armor is to expensive as well if your trying to go cheap. Its actully cheaper to field a big boss mdc atv than anything but plastic man armor. You could make two or three man teams with two gunners in a big boss with heavy or medium machine guns firing heavy ramjets for the cost of 1 decked out 1st level character other than a hobo with a shotgun (vagabond).
The speed of big boss allows you to get your two heavy ramjet machine guns to the target much faster. 3 sets of eyes and the driver using all actions to get to the target and dodge while the two gunners can concentrate soley on shooting.
As militia you get trained in wp heavy and pilot automobile. Add in first aid and detect ambush and they are set.
1 in 20 you could train in hth basic, and pilot PA basic and give a chipwell for targets that driving to is impossible.
Md mines are cheap... use em

[slade the sniper]

A great argument. While I agree there are some bits that may be needing some further examination (skills, etc.), this is exactly why places like Chipwell exist. Good job...slade2501

-STS

[Axelmania]

Cheapest is probably no armor, longnrangd MD sniper, attack from covernsi you can't get hit.

[Nightmask]

Always liked Chipwell, particularly because it makes a great basis for a Techno-Wizard or Gizmoteer to augment. A few bonus features and it becomes exceptional, something that can really surprise an enemy when they expect an easy win but can't understand why their target just won't go down and is dishing out such ridiculous damage.

[Tiree]

Chipwell is a great example of quantity being a quality all its own. But one should remember these suits need the Pilot Robots and Power Armour skill to operate.

Depending on the loadout and capabilities of the force you are looking to field additional specialized skills may be required. So while you can have a lot of suits, these won't necessarily be everyday grunts using them.

That is actually debatable...
The Challenger for example is described as an Exo...
...which the Gladius (in the same book) says doesn't need a piloting skill for.

Doesn't the new Northern Gun books say that the Gladius requires Mecha Combat Basic?

[dreicunan]

Peacekeeper with the plates on is a better deal by MDC per credit than plastic man armor if you want full EBA. Explorer is even better if you can get it at the lower end of the 28k-34k price range given. If you don't need EBA the Bullet Hovercycle ride armor or Ultra 300 Huntsman choice are great options. Throw on the NG Strretwolf duster for an extra 28 MDC for only 9500 credits.

Of course, if you can get it, the IA-30 Sumo from Japan gives 145 MDC and +6 to PS with +1 to roll with fall/impact for only 40,000 credits. Someone should make a version of that armor in North America!

[slade2501]

Chipwell is a great example of quantity being a quality all its own. But one should remember these suits need the Pilot Robots and Power Armour skill to operate.

Depending on the loadout and capabilities of the force you are looking to field additional specialized skills may be required. So while you can have a lot of suits, these won't necessarily be everyday grunts using them.

That is actually debatable...
The Challenger for example is described as an Exo...
...which the Gladius (in the same book) says doesn't need a piloting skill for.

Doesn't the new Northern Gun books say that the Gladius requires Mecha Combat Basic?

Well, NG book 2 says that the gladius is a special case, and advanced skills do not apply, as only the basic PA combat bonuses apply. i would rule that as an enhanced body armor, rather than a ful-fleged PA, that skills are not necessary, but do enhance performance.

[Blue_Lion]

Using a spell that turns sdc to MD on the SDC chipwell(I know of at least two spells that do it) suit tw suit can give you insane MD with lower repair cost of sdc.

[Axelmania]

Do any of those spells explicitly work on high tech power armor?

[Kurseteller]

My head cannon has homemade 10-15 MDC armor pretty much anywhere you lave large MD creatures or MD ruins. Also common are shotguns with HEAT ammo, grenade launchers 40mm, Rifle Grenades WW II style, RPGs/panzerfausts, Explosive Arrows, and cutdown 1-3 shot .50 Rifles. All of them are pretty low tech and low resources.

[kaid]

my only problem with ramjet rounds and the like is the ammo gets prohibitive when compared to energy clips and a good Operator with some parts and luck (home built e-clip charger anyone?).

Ramjet stuff is most useful for people who normally cannot afford either energy weapons or clips for them. Its useful if you want some stuff you can use on not very expensive weapons to deal with one maybe two light MDC dangers.

I can see people like farmers/ranchers/woodsmen liking something like big bore weapons and ramjets simply because you can buy a handful of ammo instead of having to buy a whole and expensive eclip. Sure its less useful to something like an adventurer but for for a farmer if a random bear or other SDC animal get rowdy on your property or threaten your family a ram jet round is going to send any SDC threat to meet their maker as well as any plasma cannon will.

[kaid]

Chipwell is a great example of quantity being a quality all its own. But one should remember these suits need the Pilot Robots and Power Armour skill to operate.

Depending on the loadout and capabilities of the force you are looking to field additional specialized skills may be required. So while you can have a lot of suits, these won't necessarily be everyday grunts using them.

That is actually debatable...
The Challenger for example is described as an Exo...
...which the Gladius (in the same book) says doesn't need a piloting skill for.

Doesn't the new Northern Gun books say that the Gladius requires Mecha Combat Basic?

Well, NG book 2 says that the gladius is a special case, and advanced skills do not apply, as only the basic PA combat bonuses apply. i would rule that as an enhanced body armor, rather than a ful-fleged PA, that skills are not necessary, but do enhance performance.

There are a few like this the gladius and one of the dog boy armor where the dog boy simply would never be allowed to learn power armor combat piloting. So for those it works more like a really good exoskeleton but not giving you the power armor training bonuses.

[glitterboy2098]

at one point for a friends new west game i made a compiling of prices for ammo.. one sec, let me did out that file.

most of these came out of the GMG.

Prices for Ammunition:
Box of 48 rounds: 20-50 credits (bigger calibre's cost more)
Armor piercing/Hollow point rounds: ~150 credits per box (increase damage by 1D6 per round)
Silver Rounds (damage were's and vamps): 150 credits a box.
Explosive cartridges: (add 1D6x10sd to the damage) ? (no price is given)
WI-10 Ramjets: 3D6x10sd per round or 1MD, 5-10 credits per Round.
WI-20 Ramjets: 1D4md each (.50cal and bigger), 10-15 credits per round.
WI-2E Explosive rounds: triple normal damage, 2 credits per round for pistol, 4 credits per round for Rifle, 6 credits per round for heavy machine gun
(note: i'd suggest making the AP/hollow point ammo only 2x normal, 40-100 credits, since there Is little reason it should be as pricey as silver ammo. Also silver ammo at that cost is certainly merely silver plated. also In the compendium of modern weapons, AP ammo has a 'penetration value.. which effectively reduced the AR of sdc armor by -1, instead of doing extra damage.)
12 gauge Shotgun (buckshot): 1 credit
12 gauge Shotgun (slug): 2 credits
12 gauge Shotgun (Fragmentation): 2D6md to a 5ft radius, 130 credits each
12 gauge Shotgun (plasma): 3D6md to a 3ft radius, 170 credits each
12 gauge Shotgun (APRJ): 2D6md, 20 credits each
12 gauge Shotgun (APRJ): 3D6md, 200 credits each (WB10:Juicer Uprisings)
25mm Grenade Cartridge (HE): 2D6md, 550 credits each
25mm Grenade Cartridge (CS microfusion): 6d6md, 2000-3000 credits (rare)
(Shotgun rounds are typically sold in boxes of 25)
Hand Grenades: (can be thrown about 40ft)
Fragmentation: 2D6md to a 20ft radius, .5 lbs, 250 credits
Light HE: 3D6md to 6ft radius, .5 lbs, 200 credits
Heavy HE: 4D6md to a 6ft radius, 1 lbs, 275 credits
Plasma: 6D6md to a 12ft radius, 1 lbs, 350 credits
Stun/Flash: .5 lbs, 100 credits, -10 to strike, parry, dodge, -1 init, lose 1 melee action for 1D4 rounds.
Tear gas: .5 lbs, 200 credits, 25ft radius cloud, -10 to strike, parry, dodge, -3 init, lose 1 melee action for 1D6+1 rounds. gas sticks around for 3D4 minutes.
Smoke: .5 lbs, 50 credits. 20-40ft radius, obscures vision. those not protected by EBA or gas masks are -5 strike, parry, doge, -1 init.

IMO the prices here make shotguns some of the better weapons for NPC villagers. the sdc rounds make them very handy for hunting different types of game, you can get silver ammo for them for dealing with some supernatural things, and the lower quality APRJ ammo is dirt cheap.

[Devjannz]

I love your argument here and think it makes a lot of sense. Good work.

[Sureshot]

I still don't like Chipwell Products. Yet I can see why they have a niche market within Rifts. I'm also tempted to run a game with all characters armed with Chipwell Products.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

at one point for a friends new west game i made a compiling of prices for ammo.. one sec, let me did out that file.

most of these came out of the GMG.

Prices for Ammunition:
Box of 48 rounds: 20-50 credits (bigger calibre's cost more)
Armor piercing/Hollow point rounds: ~150 credits per box (increase damage by 1D6 per round)
Silver Rounds (damage were's and vamps): 150 credits a box.
Explosive cartridges: (add 1D6x10sd to the damage) ? (no price is given)
WI-10 Ramjets: 3D6x10sd per round or 1MD, 5-10 credits per Round.
WI-20 Ramjets: 1D4md each (.50cal and bigger), 10-15 credits per round.
WI-2E Explosive rounds: triple normal damage, 2 credits per round for pistol, 4 credits per round for Rifle, 6 credits per round for heavy machine gun
(note: i'd suggest making the AP/hollow point ammo only 2x normal, 40-100 credits, since there Is little reason it should be as pricey as silver ammo. Also silver ammo at that cost is certainly merely silver plated. also In the compendium of modern weapons, AP ammo has a 'penetration value.. which effectively reduced the AR of sdc armor by -1, instead of doing extra damage.)
12 gauge Shotgun (buckshot): 1 credit
12 gauge Shotgun (slug): 2 credits
12 gauge Shotgun (Fragmentation): 2D6md to a 5ft radius, 130 credits each
12 gauge Shotgun (plasma): 3D6md to a 3ft radius, 170 credits each
12 gauge Shotgun (APRJ): 2D6md, 20 credits each
12 gauge Shotgun (APRJ): 3D6md, 200 credits each (WB10:Juicer Uprisings)
25mm Grenade Cartridge (HE): 2D6md, 550 credits each
25mm Grenade Cartridge (CS microfusion): 6d6md, 2000-3000 credits (rare)
(Shotgun rounds are typically sold in boxes of 25)
Hand Grenades: (can be thrown about 40ft)
Fragmentation: 2D6md to a 20ft radius, .5 lbs, 250 credits
Light HE: 3D6md to 6ft radius, .5 lbs, 200 credits
Heavy HE: 4D6md to a 6ft radius, 1 lbs, 275 credits
Plasma: 6D6md to a 12ft radius, 1 lbs, 350 credits
Stun/Flash: .5 lbs, 100 credits, -10 to strike, parry, dodge, -1 init, lose 1 melee action for 1D4 rounds.
Tear gas: .5 lbs, 200 credits, 25ft radius cloud, -10 to strike, parry, dodge, -3 init, lose 1 melee action for 1D6+1 rounds. gas sticks around for 3D4 minutes.
Smoke: .5 lbs, 50 credits. 20-40ft radius, obscures vision. those not protected by EBA or gas masks are -5 strike, parry, doge, -1 init.

IMO the prices here make shotguns some of the better weapons for NPC villagers. the sdc rounds make them very handy for hunting different types of game, you can get silver ammo for them for dealing with some supernatural things, and the lower quality APRJ ammo is dirt cheap.

A year or two back now, someone posted a 500,000cr challenge to arm up a village so it could stand off bandits and predators.

I armed all of the militia with Shotguns and APRJ rounds, and had each squad had a guy with a double-barrel breach loader that was the "grenadier" and used the explosive rounds.

FWIW, though, the 2D6MD APRJ rounds replaced the 3D6MD APRJ rounds as a deliberate CJ-Nerf by Kevin.....

...until they snuck back in because of lazy copypasta in NG 1 or 2 (whichever had guns in it). The 2D6MD rounds are the same rounds, just Kev-Nerfed as part of the "CJ wrote OP stuff" wave.

Edit: and i see Chrome re-enabled its built in autocorrect with the last update. Urgh, stop helping. I shut you off on purpose.

Further edit:

Checked, the blast radii on the explosive shotgun shells on your chart is WAY off. Frag is 10/20ft diameter (1/2 rounds), and Plasma is 6/12 (1/2).

Another edit because my brain is not working right today:

I -love- the high tech shotgun rounds. My "current" character that i guest-appearance as (Wolfen TW from the UWW/Warlock Marines) has adopted a Q-44 Drummer as his primary in-close weapon, with 2-3 drums of APRJ, and 1 each of plasma and frag. Good room clearing potential and hits like a rail-gun when you double-blast APRJ into someone.

Thinking about engineering some of the TW grenades into shotgun shell variants (slightly less powerful).

[glitterboy2098]

thus while i listed both. while it was probably intended as a replacement, the change to both damage and price gave some leeway. in my opinion, which the GM shared, both exist, with the pricier 3D6md versions as an uncommon military spec ammo, and the cheaper 2D6md versions being the more common civilian spec.


and the explosive shells are the specs i have in my printing of the GMG. first printing of the 2001 copyright.

you notice that you specify "diameter", while i specify "radius"? the GMG says 10 foot (3 m) diameter for a frag, and 6 foot (1.8 m) diameter for plasma.
but all other weapons use radius. Diameter/2 = radius

so a 10 foot diameter = 5 foot radius.

seriously guys, reading comprehension. it is a vital life skill.

Warning: Discussing poster, not the post - "seriously guys, reading comprehension..."

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

thus while i listed both. while it was probably intended as a replacement, the change to both damage and price gave some leeway. in my opinion, which the GM shared, both exist, with the pricier 3D6md versions as an uncommon military spec ammo, and the cheaper 2D6md versions being the more common civilian spec.

Which is not accurate RAW. That's your homebrew. Aknowledge the difference.

and the explosive shells are the specs i have in my printing of the GMG. first printing of the 2001 copyright.

you notice that you specify "diameter", while i specify "radius"? the GMG says 10 foot (3 m) diameter for a frag, and 6 foot (1.8 m) diameter for plasma.
but all other weapons use radius. Diameter/2 = radius

so a 10 foot diameter = 5 foot radius.

Good for you. You still listed the stats incorrectly, and didn't list the double-blast stats.

seriously guys, reading comprehension. it is a vital life skill.

Seriously, accurately retyping something, its a vital life skill. If you're not going to accurately represent the source material, then dont even bother doing it. But continue with the pointless sarcasm. Dont let me get in the way of a good head of "im wrong but wont admit it" steam.