quick question

[ZINO]

are these Pre-Rifts tech?

• Iron Hammer Main Battle Tank
• Iron Fist Medium Tank
• Iron Bolt Missile Vehicle
• Iron Maiden APC-10
• Grey Falcon Attack Jet
• AC-29 Air Castle Bomber
• lion Eagle Attack Helicopter
• Iron Heart Torpedoes
• Triton Patrol Boat
• Sea King Missile Cruiser
• WI-GIA Revolving Grenade Launcher
• WI-GL20 Automatic Grenade Launcher
• WI-40M Super-Heavy Missile Launcher

[kaid]

I am pretty sure the grey falcon is as I think the new navy uses the carrier version of that.

I think most of those were probably either pre rifts knock offs or upgrades/modifications on pre rifts designs.

[Zamion138]

Id say yes, but i dont recall it stating so.
Id say bombers like air castle and the sea king missile platform were way more prominent pre-rifts.

[ZINO]

are these Pre-Rifts tech?

• Iron Hammer Main Battle Tank ( pending)
• Iron Fist Medium Tank( pending)
• Iron Bolt Missile Vehicle( pending)
• Iron Maiden APC-10( pending)
• Grey Falcon Attack Jetconfirm Pre-rifts
• AC-29 Air Castle Bomberpossible Pre-rifts
• lion Eagle Attack Helicopter( pending)
• Iron Heart Torpedoes( pending)
• Triton Patrol Boat( pending)
• Sea King Missile Cruiser confirm Pre-rifts
• WI-GIA Revolving Grenade Launcher( pending)
• WI-GL20 Automatic Grenade Launcher( pending)
• WI-40M Super-Heavy Missile Launcher ( pending)

I been reading over and over but i can not find info but grey falcon ,sea king missile platform for sure the rest need help spread the word and ask other thnak you for your help

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I don't see how it is ambiguous at all. Page 102 clearly says that Wellington's designs come from a recently unearthed pre-Rifts complex, and that NG is pissed that Wellington won't share the designs or let them have access to the site.

Similarly, page 107 says that IHA got their designs from a pre-Rifts dig at Sudbury, that they stole out from under CS Iron Heart and ran off to start their own company.

All the initial stuff from Wellington in Mercenaries is pre-Rifts designs, no question (other than perhaps the Knockoffs of NG laser weapons mentioned briefly on 102). Wether the additional stuff attributed to Wellington in later books is pre-Rifts or the outgrowth of Wellington improving on/researching new designs based on their initial finds might be in question.

Since IHA was re-conquered by the CS, there are no future designs that may be in question as to origin. Also, I can find nothing in Underseas remotely like the Grey Falcon. The New Navy uses a submersible attack-wing fighter/bomber.

[ZINO]

I don't see how it is ambiguous at all. Page 102 clearly says that Wellington's designs come from a recently unearthed pre-Rifts complex, and that NG is pissed that Wellington won't share the designs or let them have access to the site.

Similarly, page 107 says that IHA got their designs from a pre-Rifts dig at Sudbury, that they stole out from under CS Iron Heart and ran off to start their own company.

All the initial stuff from Wellington in Mercenaries is pre-Rifts designs, no question (other than perhaps the Knockoffs of NG laser weapons mentioned briefly on 102). Wether the additional stuff attributed to Wellington in later books is pre-Rifts or the outgrowth of Wellington improving on/researching new designs based on their initial finds might be in question.

Since IHA was re-conquered by the CS, there are no future designs that may be in question as to origin. Also, I can find nothing in Underseas remotely like the Grey Falcon. The New Navy uses a submersible attack-wing fighter/bomber.

you are right page 102

The company was founded when a group of archaeologists discovered a pre-rifts weapon manufacturing complex, complete with blueprints for several experimental weapon systems. Over the last two years, the city has enjoyed an economic boom, producing advanced weaponry sold both to the Imperium's army, Golden Age Weaponsmiths, mercenaries and several small kingdoms. Currently, a team of W.I. sales agents is engaged in talks with the Lazlo Congress of the Electorate. The company is offering to supply Lazlo's militia with Wellington's armaments.
W.I. 's move has angered Northern Gun who already supplies weapons to Lazlo and most non-Coalition nations. Ishpeming, which has always had a friendly relationship with the Manistique Imperium feels betrayed by their entering into arms manufacturing. Actually, Northern Gun, who has dominated the market for decades, is feeling incredible pressure by the sudden appearance of several new arms dealers in just the last five years. Their friendly neighbor becoming a friendly competitor has frustrated Northern Gun. Adding to their frustration was Wellington Industries' polite refusal to sell Northern Gun its new weapon secrets (although they have signed a trade agreement that gives each other favored status and wholesale rates). All and all, the competition between the weapons dealers is beginning to turn ugly

[RockJock]

Where does it say the Grey Falcon is used by the NN? I recall them having their own jet?


This isn't in the books, but I always saw the IHA vehicles as lower grade US military tech. Maybe it was export level equipment (think F-5 Tiger), or older, National Guard equipment. Either way it was more simple then Guardmans and SAMAS suits.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Where does it say the Grey Falcon is used by the NN? I recall them having their own jet?


This isn't in the books, but I always saw the IHA vehicles as lower grade US military tech. Maybe it was export level equipment (think F-5 Tiger), or older, National Guard equipment. Either way it was more simple then Guardmans and SAMAS suits.

Keep in mind those books came out well before Chaos Earth was even published and established that Pre-Rifts Tech was all SUPER AMAZENUTS BETTER THAN ANYTHING ON RIFTS EARTH - even though Triax has had 300 YEARS of building on that tech base and should therefore have stuff that puts the stuff NEMA had to utter shame - and that no one else used tanks or such "simple" war machines.

Id say the INTENT was that they were main-line US military tanks and the like - because at the time, the 104 PA CS technology was supposed to be CS reproductions of Pre-Rifts US tech. If you examine the IHA stuff by comparing it to 104 PA CS stuff from the RMB (which was supposed to be pre-Rifts tech unearthed by the CS), it is completely comparable. An IHA MBT can go head-to-head with 104 PA CS bots and PA no problem. Actually, itd thrash the basic stuff pretty handily, with the SAM being viable against it only because of its long range Raligun and ability to fly away quickly to avoid retaliation.

Looking backwards, it is easy to assume that these were somehow "bad" or "second rate" equipment compared to NEMA gear, but that's only because Chaos Earth basically retconned into existence that NEMA tech was super-mega-better-than-anything-ever.

For instance, the New Navy is (supposedly) using front-line US military tech as of the Cataclysm (a lot of which was shared with NEMA or on the same tech level, ostensibly) 85 MDC armor. 3D6 MD rifle/1d6x10 pulse. PA in the 300-400MDC range. Submersible fighter/bomber/jet. And, actually, the IHA MBT would stand up toe-to-toe with the New Navy's tank.

Because that book was published well before Chaos Earth's "NEMA IS SUPA AWESOME" retcon.

Edit:

Found the IHA Grey Falcon reference in regards to the new Navy:

the S-14 VTOL Jet Fighter is "similar" to the Grey Falcon manufactured by IHA.

... even though they look NOTHNG alike.

[RockJock]

The first gen CS equipment has nuclear power, and is more "sophisticated" then the offerings from IHA, the book says as much when talking about IHA not being about to make the computers and nukes for PA, but they can build tanks and aircraft. I still put them as Pre-Rift based designs, just not the cutting edge of NEMA, or the frontline of the New Navy(I see the NN and original CS as fairly close since the CS is using slightly downgraded NEMA equipment closer the frontline troops). A GB, Merovingian, and Iron Fist can all do similar jobs and hold up against each other, but are not interchangeable technology level in my book.

Compare an Iron Fist to a Merovingian in a traditional "tank". Most Iron Fists are gas or electric versus nuclear on the Mero. Iron Fists are slower, and have less Main Body MDC then the Mero. As for weapons, the Mero has a much better main gun, missile armament(lacking in the Iron Fist), and secondary lasers roughly equal to the Iron Fist's lasers/railguns. At best the IF has a small win in the rail guns. All of this in a wheeled vehicle lighter then the Iron Fist by 10 tons. I chalk the above up to the New Navy vehicle being frontline, and the IH tank having already been switched to second line status.

The copters are also pretty close, with the IHA Iron Eagle being even, or even slightly superior until you remember the Striker is also a troop transport. The rest of the vehicles diverge too much to be apples to apples in my opinion.

In general the New Navy vehicles are equal to IHA combat wise while being maritime based, and more multi-roled. To my thinking that marks them as a notch better tech wise.

In things like small arms and body armor the NN beats the original CS stuff. First they use Ion versus lasers for pistols and rifles, so laser resistant armor isn't an issue, plus they don't lose range underwater(at least the rifle, or most ion guns, so I'm assuming the pistol as well). As for armor, 5 point armor differences isn't that huge a different, but there is also a penalty difference. Again, equipment made for the maritime environ that is the equal to landlubbers in their neighborhood, but has an advantage where it was designed to fight shows higher tech to me, which fits with the CS using slightly downgraded NEMA stuff.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The first gen CS equipment has nuclear power, and is more "sophisticated" then the offerings from IHA, the book says as much when talking about IHA not being about to make the computers and nukes for PA, but they can build tanks and aircraft.

But that has nothing to do with the complexity or power of the actual original designs, simply IHA's inability to manufacture the systems themselves.

I still put them as Pre-Rift based designs, just not the cutting edge of NEMA, or the frontline of the New Navy(I see the NN and original CS as fairly close since the CS is using slightly downgraded NEMA equipment closer the frontline troops). A GB, Merovingian, and Iron Fist can all do similar jobs and hold up against each other, but are not interchangeable technology level in my book.

Compare an Iron Fist to a Merovingian in a traditional "tank". Most Iron Fists are gas or electric versus nuclear on the Mero.

Again, this is due to IHA not being able to produce nuke plants in-house. Nothing to do with the tank's design, as the Iron Fist is clearly planned around having a nuclear plant - just IHA cant make them and offers gas or electric as cheaper options that it CAN make. The original pre-Rifts design had a nuke plant standard, zero doubt.

Iron Fists are slower, and have less Main Body MDC then the Mero.

No, they have 100 MORE MDC than the Mero.

As for weapons, the Mero has a much better main gun,

It has the SAME basic cannon main-gun, (2 attacks per round, same shells for the same damage at the same range) and instead of the laser cannon, has the slightly shorter ranged but more damaging (3x the rate of fire) Vulcan Laser.

missile armament(lacking in the Iron Fist),

Uh.. wut? Iron Fist has 10 MRMs. It is not lacking missiles. I'd call this one a wash as the Mero has four LRMs which i simply dont see as particularly more or less useful than 10 MRMs, but i'd give a slight advantage to the Mero because of the mini-missiles it can use for close-in defense.

and secondary lasers roughly equal to the Iron Fist's lasers/railguns.

One of the secondary lasers has only a 2000ft range and does 5D6 MD, the other has a range of 4000ft and does 1d4x10. So, the stronger of the two is equal to the WEAKER of the two rail guns mounted on the Iron Hammer, and the weaker of the two is half the range of the other rail gun, and half the damage.

Id call the two tanks almost completely comparable, with the difference in the armament, armor, and speed being solely decided by their intended roles. The Iron Hammer is more heavily armored, a little slower, but better at mowing down infantry and engaging hard targets at range (more MRMs than the Mero's 4LRMs), but the Mero is better at getting ashore and being a more multi-role vehicle, and is better at close support for Marine troops.

But tech wise, theyre totally equal. Any deficiencies in the Iron Hammer are due to IHA's inability to build the thing 100% accurately because of their lacking tech, base, not in the original design, which is 100% equivalent of the stuff the New Navy fields.

The copters are also pretty close, with the IHA Iron Eagle being even, or even slightly superior until you remember the Striker is also a troop transport. The rest of the vehicles diverge too much to be apples to apples in my opinion.

[/quote][/quote]

the two VTOL jets are also fairly similar stats-wise. The IHA jet has the benefit of being smaller and being able to be disassembled and snuck around places, but isnt as heavily armored (armaments are comparable). So i'd call that a wash.

I think my point was more that ... given what we'd seen when those books were published before the great Chaos Earth NEMA Retcon, was that IHA's stuff was just as good as other pre-rifts tech, from the CS (their stuff wasn't ever referred to as "downgraded" NEMA tech - it was just defined as unearthed pre-Rifts tech (from the Chi-Town Library). Looking at the SAMAS shows this to be true - the original USA SAM is identical to the CS Sam, except for the rail-gun, which is explained explicitly in the description as a deliberate choice on the part of the CS to use less ammo (as the original USA SAM uses the same gun just tuned up to fire higher capacity bursts).

Similarly, the stuff in Underseas was front-line US Navy gear (some of it shared with NEMA, no doubt)

Everything IHA has in Mercenaries is comparable to those two forces. Fitted for different roles, sure, but just as good. The few deficiencies isn't the fault of the original pre-Rifts designs, just IHA's inability to produce the micro-reactors and computing systems that original designs called for and having to either buy them in or use substandard alternatives.

[RockJock]

Colonel, I was talking Iron Fist, not Iron Hammer(Fist doesn't have MRMs, Hammer does). I used the Fist as the comparison because it is closer in weight and speed to the NN wheeled tank. My point was a lighter, faster, better armored wheeled tank was the equal, if not better of the IHA Iron Fist. Saying the IHA designs are stripped down and simplified versions of frontline US military equipment would be acceptable to me. I just always took them as a notch older/lower tech designs built close to the original standards.

I won't get into much with the jets. I look at is as a fighter versus a faster multi-role strike fighter.



It would make sense that NEMA and the US Army would use at least some equipment in common with the US Navy, but the only thing that comes to mind as an in book example would be the GB.


I would love to see a higher tech IHA line to represent "frontline army", with better armor, weapons, electronics etc.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Colonel, I was talking Iron Fist, not Iron Hammer(Fist doesn't have MRMs, Hammer does). I used the Fist as the comparison because it is closer in weight and speed to the NN wheeled tank. My point was a lighter, faster, better armored wheeled tank was the equal, if not better of the IHA Iron Fist. Saying the IHA designs are stripped down and simplified versions of frontline US military equipment would be acceptable to me. I just always took them as a notch older/lower tech designs built close to the original standards.

I won't get into much with the jets. I look at is as a fighter versus a faster multi-role strike fighter.

Yeah, didn't even notice. It would never have occured to me to compare the Medium Tank against their Heavy Tank (regardless of what their actual weights are, which is largely irrelevant given that they are ALL well above a weight where the difference would mean that one could go somewhere the other couldn't).

I was comparing Heavy to Heavy (well, in the case of the New Navy, "only", but ive always thought that the New Navy's equipment list was laughably small. But, given that CJ almost assuredly intended to address them more in another sourcebook, and wanted to get "the basics" into Underseas, makes plenty of sense). Really, i dont see it as being unreasonable that the New Navy probably could make the original tanks that the Iron Heart stuff is based on, and probably uses them.

For the most part, i see any deficiency between what IHA actually produces and the original pre-Rifts design of the tanks/vehicles as purely the "Fault" of IHA - they simply dont/didnt have the capacity to build them to original spec (thus the liquid and electric options). But if you look at their seagoing vessels - those IHA Missile Destroyers would fit PERFECTLY into the New Navy's lineup.

For the jet comparison, i was just comparing them stat wise. They were both pretty similar, and just optomized in different directions. Both had good built in weapons, decent ordinance payloads... one, as you said was a fast interceptor/air superiority, and the IHA plane had the benefit of being smaller and being able to be taken apart and moved around secretly. A fair tradeoff, but from a tech level, they were relatively even.

It would make sense that NEMA and the US Army would use at least some equipment in common with the US Navy, but the only thing that comes to mind as an in book example would be the GB.

Honestly, there should have been a lot MORE crossover. The SAMAS was supposedly an USAF design... but it makes about 10,000x more sense as a Marine design, or at the MOST a shared design, with perhaps optimized variants (like what the CS has finally done by having a SEA SAM and Super SAM and a more dogfighty-capable Smiling Jack). Tanks should have been used by pretty much everyone, though i can see US Army and NEMA riding the "Robuts are da future!" line that the tech powers in Rifts NA rode until they saw how good tanks could be when Triax started importing their heavy hovertank (this is mentioned in CS War Campaign as to why the CS developed the Line Backer and Sky Sweeper, and again in NG1/2 as to why NG decided to start doing tanks - because they saw how they really werent as inferior to robots as everyone "knew" after IHA, GAW, and CS/Triax tanks performed so well)... so maybe tanks were being phased out, not because they were actually inferior but because everyone as convinced robots were the one way forward, but the Navy/Marines still used them because robots make pretty poor amphib assault vehicles no matter how you slice it.

I would love to see a higher tech IHA line to represent "frontline army", with better armor, weapons, electronics etc.

It's noted in... i forget what book, that some of the IHA techs got away and fled to South America with all the plans they had plus new plans they had developed from the original designs, but haven't found a place to set up. It would be something interesting to see, but given how Kevin basically tries to ignore the fact that any of CJs work exists and actively writes around it or destroys it....

good luck.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

As an aside, though...

The Electric Engine option on all of IHAs vehicles should have made them EXTREMELY popular with places like Lazlo.

Given how effective of combat vehicles they actually are and how cheap they are compared to robots that they can go toe-to-toe with ...

Buy all of them you can get your hands on (sometimes 5-10 per what a single robot might have cost) and then TW convert those electric engines (which, at the time was a straight up thing TWs could do as per RMB, im not sure on the status of converting engines under RUE since it appears to be gone).

[RockJock]

There should definitely be more of a crossover between "branches". As it is now, not even basic armor and small arms carries over.


65 tons to 25 tons is a fairly large difference. Things like air mobility, road damage, and crossing bridges come to mind, but not issues in most people's Rifts games. Comparing the Hammer and NN tank you can argue that 40 tons goes to slightly better weapons and a bit more armor. To me that means the lighter vehicle is made with better metallurgy, power plants etc.

The "history" and upgrades for SAMAS suits is one of the things that annoys me about Rifts. You have the old Death's Head SAMAS, the "original" USA SAMAS(better gun, more options like the missile drum, and assault version with a few more missiles), the Sidewinder/Wild Weasel designs as sort of off shoots, and the Silver Eagle, which is made of better armor, but still pretty similar. We still don't have things like the activation date, or evolution history of the SAMAS models.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

There should definitely be more of a crossover between "branches". As it is now, not even basic armor and small arms carries over.

Yeah, that always annoyed me.

65 tons to 25 tons is a fairly large difference. Things like air mobility, road damage, and crossing bridges come to mind, but not issues in most people's Rifts games. Comparing the Hammer and NN tank you can argue that 40 tons goes to slightly better weapons and a bit more armor.

Well, Air Mobility in Rifts is largely moot, honestly. Anything that can carry either can easily carry them both. Most of the Robots that the transports would be carrying instead are just as heavy as the IH tank.. or heavier. Roads.. too.. not as big of an issue as largely there are none. Now, crossing rivers, the Mero has a huge advantage (it doesnt need bridges at all).

To me that means the lighter vehicle is made with better metallurgy, power plants etc.
.

Well, it was a French design, not a US design.

[RockJock]

I still see the IHA stuff as the ready reserve, or export designs. If you see the book IHA equipment as slightly downtuned versions due to IHA not having the tech for the real original, what do you see the US NG/Reserves deploying when the Rifts hit? The only other Pre-Rift North American tank is what, the M48A3? In the real world The M48 has been replaced in the reserves by the M60, which has also been replaced by the M1, if not M1A1.

[kaid]

Where does it say the Grey Falcon is used by the NN? I recall them having their own jet?


This isn't in the books, but I always saw the IHA vehicles as lower grade US military tech. Maybe it was export level equipment (think F-5 Tiger), or older, National Guard equipment. Either way it was more simple then Guardmans and SAMAS suits.

They use the sea hawk which is the carrier variant of the grey falcon it describes it as basically being almost the same plane but modified for carrier use kind of like the different flavors of f-35 being worked on.

[kaid]

I still see the IHA stuff as the ready reserve, or export designs. If you see the book IHA equipment as slightly downtuned versions due to IHA not having the tech for the real original, what do you see the US NG/Reserves deploying when the Rifts hit? The only other Pre-Rift North American tank is what, the M48A3? In the real world The M48 has been replaced in the reserves by the M60, which has also been replaced by the M1, if not M1A1.

I think chaos earth does show that the equipment available at the time of the cataclysm was a bit all over the place. Some of the units were better than what most modern rifts nations would be capable of creating but that quality was not wide spread. A lot of stuff had less MDC than one would expect simply because very few nations at the time were capable of fielding any MDC weapons in numbers so even a light MD APC was a huge force projection capability.

Like for the new navy initially ship board crews other than marines simply were not assigned MDC body armor. It was not until the coming of the rifts where there were ways something could get into your ship directly that they made and used light MDC body armor for crew to wear.

Also the time just prior to chaos earth there had been only very limited conflicts between major powers so nobody had a really tested golden age modern military force to test what worked/what did not in field conditions. So some of their designs are super amazing and some are good but not anything to write home about.

I would imagine if the new navy supplement ever comes out there will be more fleshing out of their post rifts creations but there is something to be said for designs that are tried and tested and combat functional that you have factories already setup to mass produce.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Where does it say the Grey Falcon is used by the NN? I recall them having their own jet?


This isn't in the books, but I always saw the IHA vehicles as lower grade US military tech. Maybe it was export level equipment (think F-5 Tiger), or older, National Guard equipment. Either way it was more simple then Guardmans and SAMAS suits.

They use the sea hawk which is the carrier variant of the grey falcon it describes it as basically being almost the same plane but modified for carrier use kind of like the different flavors of f-35 being worked on.

That isn't what it says, actually. I quoted what it said above. It says they are similar and that the Grey Falcon is built off of an earlier, different VTOL platform. This is further borne out by the fact that they look NOTHING alike at all - their airframes are totally, 100% different.

[Mech-Viper Prime]

There should definitely be more of a crossover between "branches". As it is now, not even basic armor and small arms carries over.


65 tons to 25 tons is a fairly large difference. Things like air mobility, road damage, and crossing bridges come to mind, but not issues in most people's Rifts games. Comparing the Hammer and NN tank you can argue that 40 tons goes to slightly better weapons and a bit more armor. To me that means the lighter vehicle is made with better metallurgy, power plants etc.

The "history" and upgrades for SAMAS suits is one of the things that annoys me about Rifts. You have the old Death's Head SAMAS, the "original" USA SAMAS(better gun, more options like the missile drum, and assault version with a few more missiles), the Sidewinder/Wild Weasel designs as sort of off shoots, and the Silver Eagle, which is made of better armor, but still pretty similar. We still don't have things like the activation date, or evolution history of the SAMAS models.

Samas and glitter boys seems have been the work horses for the us military and nema, so different versions would have been normal. Each branch having a number suited their needs.

[kaid]

I think the differences were also the golden age military feeling their way to a modern military. What type of mix of units do you want. At the time they had all these advances in tech but most countries were not really putting them together into a coherent practical force until shortly before the coming of the rifts.

So for a lot of the samas flavors probably a matter of the basic chassis is solid lets try it in a bunch of different roles and see where it works best so in different areas you could wind up with some pretty significant differences in load out/capabilities.

These were all pretty much brand new state of the art first generation weapons with all the trial and error that involves.

[eliakon]

Where does it say the Grey Falcon is used by the NN? I recall them having their own jet?


This isn't in the books, but I always saw the IHA vehicles as lower grade US military tech. Maybe it was export level equipment (think F-5 Tiger), or older, National Guard equipment. Either way it was more simple then Guardmans and SAMAS suits.

They use the sea hawk which is the carrier variant of the grey falcon it describes it as basically being almost the same plane but modified for carrier use kind of like the different flavors of f-35 being worked on.

That isn't what it says, actually. I quoted what it said above. It says they are similar and that the Grey Falcon is built off of an earlier, different VTOL platform. This is further borne out by the fact that they look NOTHING alike at all - their airframes are totally, 100% different.

I would suspect that the differences were branch wise.
The Navy would have carriers... so was not going to need improvised landing, or rugged transport.
The Grey Falcon looks like the sort of aircraft that an Army would end up getting for organic air support.
-Is modular so it can be easily transported by truck or cargo plane, or rail road.
-Assembled it is a VTOL attack fighter that is optimized for ground attack capable of both anti-armor and anti-infantry with a limited air cover role...
-It has a lower speed of Mach 2... fast enough to run down any power armor or hover craft and kill them.
Its just the sort of thing an Army would be dreaming of.

The Sea Hawk though? That is a Mach 3.2 fighter plane, it has been customized for air-to-air combat and aerobatics, has the speed to engage other fighter planes, and even its cannon is a dueling piece (it can fire at up to 30 degrees off center as opposed to the fixed gun of the Falcon) and a second lighter gun with a 360/45 arc of fire... again very much an air superiority weapon.

They are both VTOL craft with a similar (but not identical) load out... possibly arising from a similar basic initial procurement design that went two different ways...
Even their missile loads I would bet would be different. The Navy is looking for Ship Killers, so I would expect Proton Torpedoes, and Nuclear where as the Army would be more likely to take things like Fragmentation for that 80' blast radius.

One VTOL for the Navy (and likely the Air Force, but those would not have survived)
One VTOL for the Army (and NEMA)

[Blue_Lion]

My understanding was that the founders of Iron heart took unearthed designs to build there product line. So I would assume all there vehicles are pre-rifts in origins.
It even states they held pre rifts designs for tanks and weapons.
See rifts merc page 107.

[ZINO]

My understanding was that the founders of Iron heart took unearthed designs to build there product line. So I would assume all there vehicles are pre-rifts in origins.
It even states they held pre rifts designs for tanks and weapons.
See rifts merc page 107.

you are right page 102

The company was founded when a group of archaeologists discovered a pre-rifts weapon manufacturing complex, complete with blueprints for several experimental weapon systems. Over the last two years, the city has enjoyed an economic boom, producing advanced weaponry sold both to the Imperium's army, Golden Age Weaponsmiths, mercenaries and several small kingdoms. Currently, a team of W.I. sales agents is engaged in talks with the Lazlo Congress of the Electorate. The company is offering to supply Lazlo's militia with Wellington's armaments.
W.I. 's move has angered Northern Gun who already supplies weapons to Lazlo and most non-Coalition nations. Ishpeming, which has always had a friendly relationship with the Manistique Imperium feels betrayed by their entering into arms manufacturing. Actually, Northern Gun, who has dominated the market for decades, is feeling incredible pressure by the sudden appearance of several new arms dealers in just the last five years. Their friendly neighbor becoming a friendly competitor has frustrated Northern Gun. Adding to their frustration was Wellington Industries' polite refusal to sell Northern Gun its new weapon secrets (although they have signed a trade agreement that gives each other favored status and wholesale rates). All and all, the competition between the weapons dealers is beginning to turn ugly