CS Forgiveness and Black Market Knock Offs

[Sambot]

With Emperor Prosek giving forgiveness for all past transgressions, and since the Coalition's manufacturing is stretched to the limits, I'm wondering if the CS would turn to Bandito Arms and other Black Market suppliers for CS knockoffs? Sure they're older items or variants thereof but buying them does have some advantages. It keeps CS style equipment out of other people's hands. The equipment may be older versions or old styled but they work and would be familiar to CS troops. The manufacturing lines are available. Suppliers close to the CS may sell at a discount just to get rid of their supplies and to get into the CS good graces. Plus buying the knockoffs not only gets the CS much needed supplies but it could make it easier to track them back to their source to be dealt with later on.

If the CS buying up the knockoffs isn't plausible would they at least turn a blind eye towards those using them and send them to the front lines? After all they did forgive everyone (every human's) past sins against them so going after them, right now, doesn't seem to make sense.

Or am I over thunking things and knock off users still die on sight?

[Zamion138]

Id say that no they wont be buying knock off gear to give out, if anything they will say something like "Give us all of it and make no more." They might distribute the confiscated stuff to rear echelons or frontier areas to fight off demons. And if your wearing your repainted dead boy armor and shooting an NE rifle at demon while glowing blue from magic armor....... well you are shooting at a demon...... You definitely wont be shot in the back of a fire fight unless the CO is just evil, but you will probably be ignored after the fight if your out of ammo or your legs missing and need a tourniquet.

Thats how I read heros of humanity. Forgiveness for crimes in the past, not going foward, bandito arms still needs in the CS mind set to stop making sammas .

Its not a sweet new loving CS, you cant keep breaking the law, its just will forgive the past if your willing to likely die to save the world from demonic powers.

[taalismn]

And I'll bet the CS is taking notes on whoever claims the pardon....Public policy versus behind-the-scenes reality.

[Blue_Lion]

I would say no, the black market is a criminal origination that threatens CS claim to have created the SAMAS. The black market is on the bad list for most CS allies.

[Sambot]

I know the CS hasn't gone all sweetness and light but they are letting prisoners go for the worst crimes. I also know that the CS hates when others copies their stuff. The Black Market though, especially Bandito Arms, has intentionally mislead people about the origins of their items. Making knock off and variations will get enough bad attention. Start publicizing their pre-rifts origins brings the attention level to a whole new level of bad. I don't think Bandito Arms would ever let that secret out intentionally.

The thing is Heroes does say that the Coalition is sending out scout parties to find where Bandito manufactures its items because they need parts for their factories. Ideally for the CS would to be find and take over the manufacturing centers. Of course that pulls troops away from the front and it risks the very production lines they wish to obtain. Providing the CS does find them of course. In the alternative the CS could try to buy the production lines. I'm not sure Bandito would be willing to sell the production lines though. Maybe after the learn the extent of the invasion and the Coalition's efforts to stop it. But it takes time to dismantle, move, and resemble a factory. Time humanity might not have. It'd be easier and faster for the Coalition to just buy the items from Bandito and others while they produce at peak capacity. Heroes also says that because of the manufacturing shortfall that the Coalition has been concentrating on smaller less expensive things like SAMAS as well as pulling old armor out of mothballs. Those are exactly the things Bandito Arms and others have been knocking off.

It would seem to me that it would be better off for the Coalition to buy from Bandito and others now and deal with them "properly" later on than even just turning a blind eye to those using their equipment to fight against the invaders. It's also be a perfect game hook for the CS Espionage Agent. If only I could find that OCC. There's only two drawbacks that I can think of for the Coalition. The first is they would be legitimizing the Black Market. Of course if Bandito wants to stay in business, they'll keep quiet. The second would be the long supply lines from Bandito Arms to the Coalition States. They'd be tempting targets to bandits. But they'd also make backtracking to the factories easier.

[Blue_Lion]

I know the CS hasn't gone all sweetness and light but they are letting prisoners go for the worst crimes. I also know that the CS hates when others copies their stuff. The Black Market though, especially Bandito Arms, has intentionally mislead people about the origins of their items. Making knock off and variations will get enough bad attention. Start publicizing their pre-rifts origins brings the attention level to a whole new level of bad. I don't think Bandito Arms would ever let that secret out intentionally.

The thing is Heroes does say that the Coalition is sending out scout parties to find where Bandito manufactures its items because they need parts for their factories. Ideally for the CS would to be find and take over the manufacturing centers. Of course that pulls troops away from the front and it risks the very production lines they wish to obtain. Providing the CS does find them of course. In the alternative the CS could try to buy the production lines. I'm not sure Bandito would be willing to sell the production lines though. Maybe after the learn the extent of the invasion and the Coalition's efforts to stop it. But it takes time to dismantle, move, and resemble a factory. Time humanity might not have. It'd be easier and faster for the Coalition to just buy the items from Bandito and others while they produce at peak capacity. Heroes also says that because of the manufacturing shortfall that the Coalition has been concentrating on smaller less expensive things like SAMAS as well as pulling old armor out of mothballs. Those are exactly the things Bandito Arms and others have been knocking off.

It would seem to me that it would be better off for the Coalition to buy from Bandito and others now and deal with them "properly" later on than even just turning a blind eye to those using their equipment to fight against the invaders. It's also be a perfect game hook for the CS Espionage Agent. If only I could find that OCC. There's only two drawbacks that I can think of for the Coalition. The first is they would be legitimizing the Black Market. Of course if Bandito wants to stay in business, they'll keep quiet. The second would be the long supply lines from Bandito Arms to the Coalition States. They'd be tempting targets to bandits. But they'd also make backtracking to the factories easier.

The CS does have a track record for concerning manufactures that are on its black list to add their capacity to the CS war machine.

The biggest worry bandito has is CS finding their factory they would not make it easy on them.

[Alrik Vas]

How not easy on them? Do you mean just in finding it? I think if the CS really had intel resources dedicated to it, they'd find it pretty quick.

[glitterboy2098]

as i recall the main source of knock-offs was originally Northern Gun and Wellington industries, but those nations have now entered into a friendly arrangement with the CS, and the CS has more or less turned a blind eye towards their production in exchange for a portion of the output. one of their political moves at the start of the siege of tolkeen. it seems unlikely that the CS would turn to the blackmarket to make up a shortfall in weapons output, when they can easily obtain supplies of equipment by purchasing Northern Gun, wellington Industries, and Wilks hardware directly, likely at a discount due to the political and economic pressures they can bring to bear.
given that the current CS expansion of the military includes a lot of experienced mercenaries, adventurers, and other trained personnel not necessarily accustomed to CS weapons and doctrine, equipping the units comprised of these new troops with non-CS gear might get the best results from such 'auxiliaries', since those troops are likely already familiar with it and know how to best use it. (in fact many probably enlisted with their own personal gear including NG, WI, and wilks equipment. the CS issued gear would just be to replace weaker/older/less well maintained gear, and to get the unit more standardized for logistical purposes.)

[Blue_Lion]

How not easy on them? Do you mean just in finding it? I think if the CS really had intel resources dedicated to it, they'd find it pretty quick.

The CS been looking for it for years.
Black market uses disguised robots to transport from the factory.

Smuggling things past the CS is kind of one of the things the black market is good at.

[Alrik Vas]

The CS been looking for it for years.
Black market uses disguised robots to transport from the factory.

Smuggling things past the CS is kind of one of the things the black market is good at.

They appear to be, by virtue of the game stating that the BM remains a lucrative endeavor and the CS has yet to "find" them.

Though disguising robots is a bit laughable to me.

Remember, this game doesn't account for anything the people in it are actually capable of.

[eliakon]

The CS been looking for it for years.
Black market uses disguised robots to transport from the factory.

Smuggling things past the CS is kind of one of the things the black market is good at.

They appear to be, by virtue of the game stating that the BM remains a lucrative endeavor and the CS has yet to "find" them.

Though disguising robots is a bit laughable to me.

Remember, this game doesn't account for anything the people in it are actually capable of.

Yeah. I mean for some odd reason people who have access to pre-rifts records have never thought to check out Pre-Rifts bases like Area 52 (Bandito Arms), or Aberdeen (Archie 3)

Just like apparently no black marketer, has ever been captured and interrogated.

And for some reason the CS has never thought to use the Bandito technology to upgrade their SAMAS

[Alrik Vas]

Pretty much. Though I think a CS character campaign that revolved around rooting out the black market strongholds could be pretty fun.

[Shamrock 'Slinger]

I can't see it happening that way at all. They maybe cool with mercs bringing in their own weapons and equipment but as far as directly or even indirectly buying from a black market source, not likely. The rear forces and militia are getting old military grade equipment, so there might not be a need to buy from black market.

I would think that CS has QC people looking at weapons and might find it fishy if a weapon behaves differently than the usual cuts. QC would test a certain percentage from the bulk orders and test it against benchmarks. Knockoffs would be lower quality for sure in range and power, and CS would need to have standard in their weapons. Anything lower than the standard could be disastrous in the field.


The black market would have a better interest of staying out of CS' reach. I doubt the CS would be interested in actually buying a factory, just like Iron Heart they'll just take it. Even if they find a factory, that doesn't mean that it's the only one nor would it really undermine the black market. The black market isn't a tangible entity like NG or Wilk's but a mass of illegal operations throughout the world, I guess like a Hydra, there'll be another branch to replace a fallen one.

[Blue_Lion]

The CS been looking for it for years.
Black market uses disguised robots to transport from the factory.

Smuggling things past the CS is kind of one of the things the black market is good at.

They appear to be, by virtue of the game stating that the BM remains a lucrative endeavor and the CS has yet to "find" them.

Though disguising robots is a bit laughable to me.

Remember, this game doesn't account for anything the people in it are actually capable of.

A herd of dinos moving around attacks less notice from bandits and if they stay out of CS territory the CS. If in the area large herbivore dino herds are some one common most people will not think twice about seing one. If you attack then the tail team in another dino take you out to maintain the lack of information. They then hand off to special drop points once they are close to distribution sights.

Tracking movement of all dino herds is near impossible without spy sat observation. So knowing which herd is fake would be hard to tell, and then there is the problem of tracking it back to its source.

Simply Bandito arms invested more into staying away from CS detection that CS invested in finding it.

[ShadowLogan]

The thing is Heroes does say that the Coalition is sending out scout parties to find where Bandito manufactures its items because they need parts for their factories

Why can't the CS make replacement parts for their factories?

Yeah. I mean for some odd reason people who have access to pre-rifts records have never thought to check out Pre-Rifts bases like Area 52 (Bandito Arms), or Aberdeen (Archie 3

It might be several factors:
-how well the CS has searched, they have been to Washington DC IIRC. Now this could indicate Archie is well hidden to, but it could also indicate the CS "searchers" aren't that great
-they could be outside of the main and secondary sphere of CS power projection. The CS wasn't able to gobble up the Native American facility IINM that produces SAMAS. Couple that with search results like above, and the CS could have missed it directly (turned back from spotting it) or indirectly (found it, but failed to realize what it was). Nor has it stopped Japan's SAMAS program.
-its possible that the CS pre-Rifts records aren't as complete as one assumes (they haven't been able to duplicate Glitterboy technology after all) or an actor(s), such as Archie3 or the Republicans for ex, have taken steps to remove information from the CS knowledge base for a variety of self-interested reasons
-given various tectonic activities is it possible that the Pre-Rifts locations themselves (or landmarks for navigation) might have moved or been altered such that the CS might know of facility X with Y capability, but can't find it due to such geographical alterations and a lack of use able reference points

[Alrik Vas]

A herd of dinos moving around attacks less notice from bandits and if they stay out of CS territory the CS. If in the area large herbivore dino herds are some one common most people will not think twice about seing one. If you attack then the tail team in another dino take you out to maintain the lack of information. They then hand off to special drop points once they are close to distribution sights.

Tracking movement of all dino herds is near impossible without spy sat observation. So knowing which herd is fake would be hard to tell, and then there is the problem of tracking it back to its source.

Simply Bandito arms invested more into staying away from CS detection that CS invested in finding it.

Thermal imaging would expose them pretty easily. You'd have to be pretty specific to mask them and appear like normal dinos under any kind of real scrutiny.

I'm not saying it's impossible, no. I'm saying i think Palladium left it open for us to decide how lame or effective it is.

[Blue_Lion]

A herd of dinos moving around attacks less notice from bandits and if they stay out of CS territory the CS. If in the area large herbivore dino herds are some one common most people will not think twice about seing one. If you attack then the tail team in another dino take you out to maintain the lack of information. They then hand off to special drop points once they are close to distribution sights.

Tracking movement of all dino herds is near impossible without spy sat observation. So knowing which herd is fake would be hard to tell, and then there is the problem of tracking it back to its source.

Simply Bandito arms invested more into staying away from CS detection that CS invested in finding it.

Thermal imaging would expose them pretty easily. You'd have to be pretty specific to mask them and appear like normal dinos under any kind of real scrutiny.

I'm not saying it's impossible, no. I'm saying i think Palladium left it open for us to decide how lame or effective it is.

Rifts has the ability to thermal mask you see it in some of the gear such as the stealth guile suit.
The impression I got from the book was that it was working.

[Sambot]

The CS does have a track record for concerning manufactures that are on its black list to add their capacity to the CS war machine.

The biggest worry bandito has is CS finding their factory they would not make it easy on them.

Which would by a reason why the CS would want to get their hands on all the examples they could. The more shipments made the more supply trips to the factory, making it easier to find.

Which would be a reason why Bandito might not want to get into supplying the CS. Then again I'm sure they could find lots of intermediaries.


Isn't part of the reason the CS hasn't found the Bandito Factory. Or the Native America Factory because they're so far west and the CS hasn't had the resources to really hunt them down?

[
Yeah. I mean for some odd reason people who have access to pre-rifts records have never thought to check out Pre-Rifts bases like Area 52 (Bandito Arms), or Aberdeen (Archie 3)

Just like apparently no black marketer, has ever been captured and interrogated.

And for some reason the CS has never thought to use the Bandito technology to upgrade their SAMAS

The CS records might not be complete. They could have been lost, corrupted, still encrypted, or just never included. I'd go with never included. I don't think the American government wanted Top Secret research sites listed in general information. Also if such records had been located the CS would have gone west to secure both Ara 51 and Fort Apache yeas ago. Not only does the CS not know where the production facility is but they still believe that they're knock offs. A factory is a nice target but can wait. Pre-Rifts factories are a must obtain at all costs.

Bandito has lots of people between them and their buyers, so just arresting the seller won't help. You have to back track the entire supply chain.

Besides that they don't know that it is an upgrade, my guess is that the CS still believes them to be knock offs. No new tech, just different styling.

[Sambot]

I can't see it happening that way at all. They maybe cool with mercs bringing in their own weapons and equipment but as far as directly or even indirectly buying from a black market source, not likely. The rear forces and militia are getting old military grade equipment, so there might not be a need to buy from black market.

I would think that CS has QC people looking at weapons and might find it fishy if a weapon behaves differently than the usual cuts. QC would test a certain percentage from the bulk orders and test it against benchmarks. Knockoffs would be lower quality for sure in range and power, and CS would need to have standard in their weapons. Anything lower than the standard could be disastrous in the field.


The black market would have a better interest of staying out of CS' reach. I doubt the CS would be interested in actually buying a factory, just like Iron Heart they'll just take it. Even if they find a factory, that doesn't mean that it's the only one nor would it really undermine the black market. The black market isn't a tangible entity like NG or Wilk's but a mass of illegal operations throughout the world, I guess like a Hydra, there'll be another branch to replace a fallen one.

That's why I started the thread. Up til now if you were caught with Coalition Equipment or Coalition Styled Equipment and you were dead or imprison for life. Since Emperor Prosek forgave everyone though, how far does that forgiveness go towards black market knock-offs?

Use of against the demon invaders? "Okay. We'll let it slide. This time. The front line is that way. We'll be right behind you. If you need replacements the Northern Gun dealer is over there."

Continued manufacture and supply to mercs???
Continued manufacture and supply to the CS???
Those I don't know.

Yes those further from the front lines are getting items out of mothballs. But they're getting things out of mothballs because production can't give them new items. And the amount of mothballed supplies will be dwindling rapidly. So if the CS could buy more I could see them doing so. I'm also sure that there's some quality control going on. Those that don't meet CS standards are given to Mercs. But I don't think an item's lower quality would automatically mean knock-off. They could have just been improperly stored, improperly, maintained/repaired/ or not repaired at all.

I'm also sure that the CS would rather just take the factory but to do so they'd have to find it and then capture it. And both factories have a lot of defenders. That's a lot of personnel and resources going west when they're needed east.

[Sambot]

The thing is Heroes does say that the Coalition is sending out scout parties to find where Bandito manufactures its items because they need parts for their factories

Why can't the CS make replacement parts for their factories?

Because the production lines are wearing out and need replacement parts. To free up lines to make those replacement parts other production lines need to be shut down and retooled. That's even less war material heading towards the front. If the CS can obtain those parts from some where else they won't have to shut down those extra lines.

[J_cobbers]

A herd of dinos moving around attacks less notice from bandits and if they stay out of CS territory the CS. If in the area large herbivore dino herds are some one common most people will not think twice about seing one. If you attack then the tail team in another dino take you out to maintain the lack of information. They then hand off to special drop points once they are close to distribution sights.

Tracking movement of all dino herds is near impossible without spy sat observation. So knowing which herd is fake would be hard to tell, and then there is the problem of tracking it back to its source.

Simply Bandito arms invested more into staying away from CS detection that CS invested in finding it.

Thermal imaging would expose them pretty easily. You'd have to be pretty specific to mask them and appear like normal dinos under any kind of real scrutiny.

I'm not saying it's impossible, no. I'm saying i think Palladium left it open for us to decide how lame or effective it is.

Rifts has the ability to thermal mask you see it in some of the gear such as the stealth guile suit.
The impression I got from the book was that it was working.

I think thermal imaging camouflage shouldn't be too difficult, BAE already has a system for tanks IRL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlLqdFsMnCE By the time of Rifts, the tech to make a robot dinosaur have the same thermal imaging properties as a flesh and blood dino shouldn't be too difficult, and how many troops will know the difference at a distance with the fake flesh covering them up?

[ShadowLogan]

The thing is Heroes does say that the Coalition is sending out scout parties to find where Bandito manufactures its items because they need parts for their factories

Why can't the CS make replacement parts for their factories?

Because the production lines are wearing out and need replacement parts. To free up lines to make those replacement parts other production lines need to be shut down and retooled. That's even less war material heading towards the front. If the CS can obtain those parts from some where else they won't have to shut down those extra lines.

I get that the production lines are searing out and need parts.

Why doesn't the CS though have lines in place to keep making replacement parts? It seems like the CS is gambling they can find the parts, which might or might not exist, and even if those parts exist they would be sufficient quantity and they can find them in time. The CS would be better served by reducing output in some areas to allow them to continue production without a gamble.

It's also conceivable that the CS really doesn't have the capability to make replacement parts.

[Alrik Vas]

Rifts has the ability to thermal mask you see it in some of the gear such as the stealth guile suit.
The impression I got from the book was that it was working.

Some things in Rifts mask thermal signatures, sure. Naruni tech for one. I'm not familiar with the Stealth Guile Suit, specifically though.

I get the impression it's working too, because the book says so, as I stated before.

Kinda like giant robots running 60mph and not sinking into the terrain.

[Vrykolas2k]

Rifts has the ability to thermal mask you see it in some of the gear such as the stealth guile suit.
The impression I got from the book was that it was working.

Some things in Rifts mask thermal signatures, sure. Naruni tech for one. I'm not familiar with the Stealth Guile Suit, specifically though.

I get the impression it's working too, because the book says so, as I stated before.

Kinda like giant robots running 60mph and not sinking into the terrain.

Giant robots run without sinking all the time in anime...

[Blue_Lion]

Rifts has the ability to thermal mask you see it in some of the gear such as the stealth guile suit.
The impression I got from the book was that it was working.

Some things in Rifts mask thermal signatures, sure. Naruni tech for one. I'm not familiar with the Stealth Guile Suit, specifically though.

I get the impression it's working too, because the book says so, as I stated before.

Kinda like giant robots running 60mph and not sinking into the terrain.

Giant robots run without sinking all the time in anime...

That is because it is cool not that it is physically possible. It works in the game because it is cool.

[Axelmania]

Forgiveness would be worth getting the design for the Sidewinder SAMAS, that thing's amazing like that juicer cloaking pack which gives missile penalties.

[Blue_Lion]

Forgiveness would be worth getting the design for the Sidewinder SAMAS, that thing's amazing like that juicer cloaking pack which gives missile penalties.

Jamming/spoofing not cloaking.
I think the wild weasel would be a much better PA only unit with built in jamming.

[Vrykolas2k]

Rifts has the ability to thermal mask you see it in some of the gear such as the stealth guile suit.
The impression I got from the book was that it was working.

Some things in Rifts mask thermal signatures, sure. Naruni tech for one. I'm not familiar with the Stealth Guile Suit, specifically though.

I get the impression it's working too, because the book says so, as I stated before.

Kinda like giant robots running 60mph and not sinking into the terrain.

Giant robots run without sinking all the time in anime...

That is because it is cool not that it is physically possible. It works in the game because it is cool.

Right.

[Sambot]

I get that the production lines are searing out and need parts.

Why doesn't the CS though have lines in place to keep making replacement parts? It seems like the CS is gambling they can find the parts, which might or might not exist, and even if those parts exist they would be sufficient quantity and they can find them in time. The CS would be better served by reducing output in some areas to allow them to continue production without a gamble.

It's also conceivable that the CS really doesn't have the capability to make replacement parts.

Maybe they used them all up? They did just finish fighting Tolkien and Free Quebec.

They can. They just have to shut down a working line to do so.

They've already reduced production capacity because of the damaged lines. But they still have to shut down more lines to make replacement parts which reduced capacity even more. If they can get parts or another factory they don't have to reduce production any more.

[glitterboy2098]

The thing is Heroes does say that the Coalition is sending out scout parties to find where Bandito manufactures its items because they need parts for their factories

Why can't the CS make replacement parts for their factories?

Because the production lines are wearing out and need replacement parts. To free up lines to make those replacement parts other production lines need to be shut down and retooled. That's even less war material heading towards the front. If the CS can obtain those parts from some where else they won't have to shut down those extra lines.

where does it actually say their production lines are wearing out though?

[Sambot]

where does it actually say their production lines are wearing out though?

Page 67 in Heroes in the Manufacturing Overtaxed section. The second sentence says that too many lines were shut down for necessary repairs and improvements. The section goes on to tell about how parts need to be custom made and that they either need to shut down more lines to make them or find more manufacturing. Because of that Robots aren't going to be made for at least a year and if the parts aren't replaced soon other lines will be forced to shut down.

[MikelAmroni]

Forgiveness would be worth getting the design for the Sidewinder SAMAS, that thing's amazing like that juicer cloaking pack which gives missile penalties.

Jamming/spoofing not cloaking.
I think the wild weasel would be a much better PA only unit with built in jamming.

For my games I long ago had the black boxes captured and copied by CS R&D, such that Wild Weasel Sams (ie PA-06A SAMAS with the Black Box instead of missiles and a railgun, also with the forearm guns) is available to my 104 PA players. One of the characters is a Wild Weasel Pilot.

Capturing a working copy of the Black box did not, however, give them access to the vector system. Which was fine, I never liked it anyway.