New Sourcebook Suggestions.

[Jefffar]

Given what Harmony Gold has already approved (the Genesis Pits sourcebook and mention of there being multiple human nations in the period between the end of Macross and the start of Masters) I can't say HG is against the continued development of the off screen universe. Instead they currently prefer to be much more selective with what they include.

I think there are a few sizable chunks of time and space that a lot of work could be done in, providing HG is offered a product they can feel comfortable with.

First, like the original RPG, the story of Earth between the end of Macross and the start of Masters is a good blank space. As mentioned above, HG has already approved information in the Southern Cross book indicating there was still considerable conflict on earth with both human and alien factions. The new mecha and the Malcontents faction from the miniatures game provide additional fodder to work with in this time frame.

The other big untold is what the UEEF was actually doing before their attempts to reclaim Earth. A bit of this has seeped out in Genesis Pits, but there is a lot more that could be delivered. I expect the UEEF Marines book will cover a lot of this.

One thing we need to control our expectations about is how much 'crunch' any supplemental books may have. Yes there may be some unexplored mecha left and some new variants to create, but overall, the Genesis Pits and Invid Invasion books probably best show us the future: slim books that are mostly setting and adventure guides instead of catalogs of mecha and weapons.

[Seto Kaiba]

Given what Harmony Gold has already approved (the Genesis Pits sourcebook and mention of there being multiple human nations in the period between the end of Macross and the start of Masters) I can't say HG is against the continued development of the off screen universe. Instead they currently prefer to be much more selective with what they include.

Looking back at what Harmony Gold has chosen to approve for use in the RPG's Masters Saga, New Generation, Genesis Pits, and Marines sourcebooks, it's more like they're less fussy about what Palladium does with portions of the setting they have absolutely zero intention to utilize in the future for various reasons.

In light of the franchise's current situation, I don't think we'll see more than another two, maybe three books...

[taalismn]

To quote a great sage:
Odd Ball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

[glitterboy2098]

actually, with colonies it's likely going to be like the genesis pits.. the presented material in the book is just a sampling, and if HG needs a colony to be important in their upcoming story, well, that one is just one of the ones the book didn't describe.

avoid exclusive language (where you say specifically that there are no more of something, or that something is the only of its kind, etc, which limits or excludes the addition of anything else) or definitive statements (that something is the first, for example) and you should be fine.

[eliakon]

actually, with colonies it's likely going to be like the genesis pits.. the presented material in the book is just a sampling, and if HG needs a colony to be important in their upcoming story, well, that one is just one of the ones the book didn't describe.

avoid exclusive language (where you say specifically that there are no more of something, or that something is the only of its kind, etc, which limits or excludes the addition of anything else) or definitive statements (that something is the first, for example) and you should be fine.

So.... saying 'these people are from colony X' would be fine saying 'these people are from colony x the first/last/only extra-solar colony' would not be fine?

[glitterboy2098]

pretty much.

the approach can be summed as "leave plenty of open space".. it's a good approach for RPG's in general anyway.

[ShadowLogan]

That's Robotech for ya... every attempt to fix one contradiction creates two more.

The best anyone could offer for an explanation to that is that the UEEF may not have bothered telling Leonard things that were not considered relevant to his specific area of responsibility (the defense of Earth and nothing else).

It's a bloody mess... colony ships that were built when there are no colonists to use them, claims that the liberation of Tirol occurred years before 2031 and yet after the Beta's widespread adoption in circa 2040, decades of struggle in deep space to liberate the many Invid-occupied planets yet the UEEF acts as though they're a recent discovery.

While the 85ep has its own set of contradictions (mostly w/re to surivor count or narrator releated), in this instance though there was no contradication w/n the show about the Invid and Earth's knowledge of them in the time frame suggested, it is by all indications a development of post 85ep products in this case. And those post-products have always contributed to creating a bigger mess weather its Legacy (CM-era) or Remastered (TY-era).

Re:
-Leondard & Invid: I just don't see that happening. Someone in the UEG should have known, and that should have at least filtered to the upper military. Plus recall that in NG#1 we are told that once the Invid appeared there wasn't anyone else to fight (or something along those lines, don't have the quote handy).
-Tirol: Could there have been multiple worlds called Tirol? We do have multiple communities w/the same name even here on Earth at the local level only really identifiable by context or regional location. Though I don't like this idea to be honest, but it works.
-Beta: a VBF-7 "salvage" (similar to what we see w/Condor) variant went into production w/o docking capacity (really the Alpha likely also saw this too, unless the hardware was re purposed for other roles there would be no reason to retain it). We just aren't told about it, much like the VF-2 and VF-3, and outside the 2E RPG the VF-5 (maybe).
-Colony Ships & Colonists: The easiest way to get around the population issue is that there are people who aren't counted as "survivors" of the RoD. The notion of which can be some what supported by the series. Could toss in cloning, but it would seem to make more sense to clone the population on-site instead of pre-launch, which really cuts down on the need for colony ships to transport people.

One thing we need to control our expectations about is how much 'crunch' any supplemental books may have. Yes there may be some unexplored mecha left and some new variants to create, but overall, the Genesis Pits and Invid Invasion books probably best show us the future: slim books that are mostly setting and adventure guides instead of catalogs of mecha and weapons.

The "crunch" though is what would make it an RPG book IMHO, without at least some "crunch" it really doesn't have to be an RPG book.

I am not saying we need a catalog of new equipment just for new equipment or more IMUs per book, but in terms of diversity it would be nice. If Marines does bring us aliens, it would be nice to see them get their own "catalog" instead of just plugging in established hardware (or IMUs of such). If I have one gripe about the aliens in Rifts, its the overall lack of development (not saying there aren't exceptions like the Naruni and Kittani, but overall most don't even get to Faire 'Bot/Kremin/Vernulian level which is pretty sparse IMHO. Note PW may be different than Rifts Earth). I bring up the aliens because they (as said in Prelude) have been fighting the Invid longer than the UEEF, so they have to have hardware for the task (while 1E had a few examples, it would really only be the tip of the ice berg).

[Seto Kaiba]

To quote a great sage:
Odd Ball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?

Because I believe there are few things in this world more unforgivable than giving people false hope...

Well, if you want something righteous and hopeful... it's my sincere hope that Palladium is able to open negotiations for a license to Macross with Bandai and Big West after Harmony Gold finally bows to the inevitable and shuts down or sells of Robotech in a few years. If they could get the license to make RPGs based on Macross and Gundam, Kevin and co. would have so much material they'd be in books for life plus twenty.

Warning: Hoping for the demise of Palladium's business partners is covered under the rules for trolling highlighted specifically on this forum.

the approach can be summed as "leave plenty of open space".. it's a good approach for RPG's in general anyway.

Pretty much what I said earlier... though, thus far, it's not so much leaving plenty of open space as locating suitable plots of totally abandoned space.

Palladium's writers and Harmony Gold's approvers don't need to worry much about playing around with the whole 2015-2030 period because the legal issues and general fan antipathy for the Masters Saga mean they'll never revisit that period. Likewise, the plans for the "Shadow Saga"* revolve purely around just three or four canon planets and the only colony ship in existence, there's a BIG blind spot they can write in provided they don't do anything Harmony Gold thinks would break the setting or planned future stories.

Knowing a rough idea of what they've planned, we can at least have a good solid guess at what's off the table.

And those post-products have always contributed to creating a bigger mess weather its Legacy (CM-era) or Remastered (TY-era).

Can't argue that...

-Leondard & Invid: I just don't see that happening. Someone in the UEG should have known, and that should have at least filtered to the upper military. Plus recall that in NG#1 we are told that once the Invid appeared there wasn't anyone else to fight (or something along those lines, don't have the quote handy).

Possibly a byproduct of an aspect of the old Sentinels material screwing with things. In the comics, the SDF-3 was completely out of touch with Earth almost from the instant they arrived in the Fantoma system thanks to an Invid attack.

-Tirol: Could there have been multiple worlds called Tirol? We do have multiple communities w/the same name even here on Earth at the local level only really identifiable by context or regional location. Though I don't like this idea to be honest, but it works.

Yeah, I kinda doubt it too... Tirol is practically presented as the former axis mundi of the galaxy, I doubt there'd be two. Two planets with the same name is surprisingly rare in SF too (the only instance I can recall is in the Horus Heresy novels, which acted mainly as foreshadowing.)

The "crunch" though is what would make it an RPG book IMHO, without at least some "crunch" it really doesn't have to be an RPG book.

A RPG book without the crunch is basically just a hardcopy of someone's fanfic, when you think about it.




* With Shadow Rising and the untitled 3rd and potential 4th installments of the "Shadow Saga" effectively canceled, having had work suspended over seven years ago, it's feeling a little more like the "Vapor Saga" at this point.

[glitterboy2098]

the approach can be summed as "leave plenty of open space".. it's a good approach for RPG's in general anyway.

Pretty much what I said earlier... though, thus far, it's not so much leaving plenty of open space as locating suitable plots of totally abandoned space.

actually Seto you misunderstand me.. i was not speaking of physical or timeline space, so much as linguistic space.. basically when writing about something like earth's colony's you have to avoid making statements that would conflict with anything HG may choose to add to a colony they come up with in a future product.
so for example, if in the RPG a colony world has plants that float in the air due to balls of gas, you'd avoid statements like "totally unique" or "not seen anywhere else" and stick to ones more like "uncommon" or "rarely seen".. just in case HG decides to put something like floating airplants into whatever they do.
likewise avoid saying "this is the first extrasolar colony mankind established" or "this is the only colony comprised only of zentraedi" or the like.. instead using more generalities like "one of the first" or avoiding making a big deal out of the population composition..

sure, it may never come up, but it's better to leave yourself an 'out' so that you don't have obvious conflicts.

Palladium's writers and Harmony Gold's approvers don't need to worry much about playing around with the whole 2015-2030 period because the legal issues and general fan antipathy for the Masters Saga mean they'll never revisit that period. Likewise, the plans for the "Shadow Saga"* revolve purely around just three or four canon planets and the only colony ship in existence, there's a BIG blind spot they can write in provided they don't do anything Harmony Gold thinks would break the setting or planned future stories.

Knowing a rough idea of what they've planned, we can at least have a good solid guess at what's off the table.

actually last i knew, macross was the most popular segment of the show among the fan base, for a variety of reasons.
it's generally southern cross which seems to have the smaller fanbase.

HG's avoidance of macross imagery stems more from legal issues rather than fan attitudes.

besides, i'd not want to second guess what HG will and will not do in regards to filling in periods of time with products.. the comics, products like love live alive, and proposed products like academy show they have little reluctance to create products which fill in those timeline gaps.

also, since last i checked HG wasn't advertising or talking about their plans for the shadow chronicles sequels, so saying that we 'know' they'll only revolve around 4 planets and the only advanced colonyship in the setting*. certainly it seems likely that they'd limit the number of planets actually visited, due purely to plot related reasons, but dialog, displays, and other such sources within these future products could very well indicate or even name more.

the only real 'no mans land' is going to be the haydonites and the haydonite war.. events after 2044 need extra care to make them suitably vague as to details, and until the sequels actually come out details on the haydonite military, plans, background, or motivations is an area a writer should avoid, because we have so little that any official attempt to expand on them is likely to end up contradicted.

*(we actually cannot state definitively that it is the only one.. only that it was the first of a more advanced new class. there might be more unconverted angel class ships in another factory satellite or facility, and we don't know if the angel class was the sole colony ship in use, or whether it was merely the most notable/widespread class.)

[Seto Kaiba]

actually Seto you misunderstand me.. i was not speaking of physical or timeline space, so much as linguistic space.. basically when writing about something like earth's colony's you have to avoid making statements that would conflict with anything HG may choose to add to a colony they come up with in a future product.

In practice, it's pretty much the same thing...

actually last i knew, macross was the most popular segment of the show among the fan base, for a variety of reasons.
it's generally southern cross which seems to have the smaller fanbase.

Yes, that's what's written in the passage you quoted... the legal issues are from Macross, and "general fan antipathy for the Masters Saga".

The Macross Saga is, and always has been, the most popular segment of the show by an overwhelming margin... which is a VERY large problem.

also, since last i checked HG wasn't advertising or talking about their plans for the shadow chronicles sequels, so saying that we 'know' they'll only revolve around 4 planets and the only advanced colonyship in the setting*.

Considering that plans to continue the Shadow Saga are officially "on indefinite hiatus", which in practice is little more than a very roundabout way of admitting the project is canceled, the leaked material is likely to be the only part of Shadow Rising which gets released.

(Richard Epcar confirmed years ago that absolutely nothing is being done, and that it was on a "don't call us, we'll call you" basis.)

*(we actually cannot state definitively that it is the only one.. only that it was the first of a more advanced new class. there might be more unconverted angel class ships in another factory satellite or facility, and we don't know if the angel class was the sole colony ship in use, or whether it was merely the most notable/widespread class.)

Actually we can definitively state that... because it IS stated explicitly in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles' entry for the Ark Angel-class that ALL of the other ships of her class were destroyed.

With the destruction of Space Station Liberty, all of the unfinished colony ships of its class were destroyed, and it is uncertain where the final outfitting of the Ark Angel will take place for it to embark on its next mission.

[eliakon]

*(we actually cannot state definitively that it is the only one.. only that it was the first of a more advanced new class. there might be more unconverted angel class ships in another factory satellite or facility, and we don't know if the angel class was the sole colony ship in use, or whether it was merely the most notable/widespread class.)

Actually we can definitively state that... because it IS stated explicitly in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles' entry for the Ark Angel-class that ALL of the other ships of her class were destroyed.

With the destruction of Space Station Liberty, all of the unfinished colony ships of its class were destroyed, and it is uncertain where the final outfitting of the Ark Angel will take place for it to embark on its next mission.

Which doesn't mean that all the ships of other classes were destroyed....

[glitterboy2098]

all the other ark angel class... but we dont know how many Angel class were original built or how many were converted to nuetron-S use, where all of them were stored.. or whether the angel class was the only class of colony ship the UEEF made at that time.

which is my point, you claimed that it was the only colony ship left in existence.. but all we can say definitively is it is the only remaining ark angel class colony ship left.

[Seto Kaiba]

Which doesn't mean that all the ships of other classes were destroyed....

As only the two known classes of colony ship identified in The Art of Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles are ever mentioned or described in official Robotech sources, there is no official evidence to suggest that there are other, as-of-yet unseen classes.

Though, I must admit, it IS possible the UEEF didn't make Space Station Liberty their sole depot for neutron-s missiles... which would mean they could theoretically convert them back into Angel-class colony ships now that they know the warheads are not exactly viable weapons for what is ostensibly an army of liberation rather than annihilation. However, depictions in Prelude do support the idea that Liberty station was the sole depot.

[glitterboy2098]

seto, just because nothing is said of other classes does not mean no other classes exist.

[Seto Kaiba]

seto, just because nothing is said of other classes does not mean no other classes exist.

Strictly speaking, that absolutely nothing is said of other classes doesn't mean it's impossible for them to exist... it just means there's currently no factual basis to claim that they exist.

[eliakon]

seto, just because nothing is said of other classes does not mean no other classes exist.

Strictly speaking, that absolutely nothing is said of other classes doesn't mean it's impossible for them to exist... it just means there's currently no factual basis to claim that they exist.

Which brings us to the famous logical saying
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
All we know is that all the examples of the Ark Angel class were destroyed. Note that it does not say that all colony ships are destroyed, just that all examples of that one class were destroyed.
So right there its possible that there are still Angel class ships out that were not mothballed yet
Or that there could be another class (or more) of ships besides those two that was in use
Which puts us firmly in the area of 'we don't know enough to rule things in or out'

[Seto Kaiba]

Which brings us to the famous logical saying
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Nah, it just brings us around to the same logical crossroads as every cryptid claim... in the complete absence of evidence that a thing exists, the only sane and reasonable assumption is that it doesn't exist (until such time as hard evidence to the contrary is found).

We know, from canon sources, that the Angel-class was earmarked for humanity's early colonization efforts and that after the program was canceled the Ark Angel-class was developed as its direct successor. We likewise know the Angel-class got converted into the neutron-s missiles, and that there is only one surviving example of the Ark Angel-class thanks to the Space Station Liberty shipyards being compressed to a singularity, and that the class was the UEEF's state of the art. We know that there hasn't been any mention or description of a third class of colony ships in any official source to date.

Unsubstantiated, any assertion that there are other classes of colony ship would be fan fiction until such time as the Harmony Gold creative staff releases information that identifies other classes of colony ship besides the two we know about.



If Palladium is working within the Robotech franchise's "abandoned" areas the way they've done with the previous sourcebooks, that means we're unlikely to see anything that would diminish a current plot point that significantly.

[Sgt Anjay]

Guys, Grumpy Cat's gonna grumpy.

But we already know the RPG has expanded and extended and extrapolated additional data, even under Harmony Gold's more limited current regime; much as we can say there's not as much data as we might wish, there's definitely way more data in the 2nd Ed books than HG has bothered to put out, especially in the pre-2009 era as far as timeline and mecha development and both pre- and post- 2nd Robotech War.

So really, let's just let the ideas flow in a spirit of fan-joy, and let the "no, because no" spam be the irrelevance it really is.

I say you could get a sourcebook just out of the factory satellites the same way they got one out of Genesis Pits. Go into the one captured in "Viva Miriya", so you can run Macross-era adventures, and branch from there. Then go into Masters Saga-era Space Station Liberty. And from there go wild. How did the transition in Liberty from Masters to Shadow Chronicles era go? What are some of the further ones captured by the REF, as mentioned in Art of Shadow Chronicles? Put one or morein Invid hands, letting you blend Genesis Pits stuff. Utterly lost ones in isolated Zent or Masters hands. Possible ones dead out of protoculture but filled with some weird mystery space "things"? A horror-style scenario with fac sat as backdrop could have cool adventure possibilities. And of course variant mecha and IMUs and prototypes and special one-offs and whatnot are super plausible hanging out around fac sats. Really, fac sats are an untapped gold mine, IMNSHO.

Warning: Disagree with his posts all you like, but don't make comments about the poster.

[ShadowLogan]

Possibly a byproduct of an aspect of the old Sentinels material screwing with things. In the comics, the SDF-3 was completely out of touch with Earth almost from the instant they arrived in the Fantoma system thanks to an Invid attack.

No possibility about it, it is a by product of the Sentinels material, trying to work it in both in the past and present. The old comics sound similar to the Novels in that regard. It's almost like Sentinels events have to be re-constructed to be concurrent with NG/post-TRM period (or very least late TRM).

A RPG book without the crunch is basically just a hardcopy of someone's fanfic, when you think about it.

I don't know if i'd go so far as to call it a fanfic. It would still be official. That would be like saying writers who wrote Star Trek (or pick another show/movie) episodes are fanfic writers.

With Shadow Rising and the untitled 3rd and potential 4th installments of the "Shadow Saga" effectively canceled, having had work suspended over seven years ago, it's feeling a little more like the "Vapor Saga" at this point.

Shadow Saga pt2-4, Academy, and even the Sentinels (re-visit) could see life in some form as an RPG campaign module(s) (and/or even Tactics scenerios) to see them "finished" in the current universe (hey they could always "reboot" again). While that might put a crimp on revisiting them in other forms (comic/graphic novel or highly unlikely animation) in the future..., given HG's declaration of the Sentinels product cycle having ended, both projects might end that way to when the next "up-cycle" comes they try to catch on to instead of revisiting them.

Palladium's writers and Harmony Gold's approvers don't need to worry much about playing around with the whole 2015-2030 period because the legal issues and general fan antipathy for the Masters Saga mean they'll never revisit that period.

But if we are talking about producing RPG material, I think there would be less influence form the general fan base, and more influence by the RPG fanbase's reaction to that particular setting arc. After all the general fan may not purchase RPG material even for quasi-reference (at least the majority) or just because its RT. The period is question also allows for "cross-over" type connections, we get references to all 3 base sagas given TMS is on the way out, NG and TRM is on the way in, so there could be something for nearly everyone if done correctly.

Though, I must admit, it IS possible the UEEF didn't make Space Station Liberty their sole depot for neutron-s missiles... which would mean they could theoretically convert them back into Angel-class colony ships now that they know the warheads are not exactly viable weapons for what is ostensibly an army of liberation rather than annihilation. However, depictions in Prelude do support the idea that Liberty station was the sole depot.

As far as N-S storage, yeah SSL likely is the sole depot, but per AotSC we know they have other captured RFS facilities in service, so the base-line Angel-class (or even other non-N-S variants) may still exist out there in storage at these other RFS locations given how little we know about them.

[Seto Kaiba]

So really, let's just let the ideas flow in a spirit of fan-joy, and let the "no, because no" spam be the irrelevance it really is.

If we're considering ideas for new sourcebooks, there's little point in proposing things we know will never get approved for publication by Harmony Gold.

No possibility about it, it is a by product of the Sentinels material, trying to work it in both in the past and present. The old comics sound similar to the Novels in that regard. It's almost like Sentinels events have to be re-constructed to be concurrent with NG/post-TRM period (or very least late TRM).

Which is tragic, because Harmony Gold maintains that is something they will never do...

The closest we are likely to get is the "broad strokes" revisited in the UEEF Marines sourcebook... whenever that comes out.

[Sgt Anjay]

So really, let's just let the ideas flow in a spirit of fan-joy, and let the "no, because no" spam be the irrelevance it really is.

If we're considering ideas for new sourcebooks, there's little point in proposing things we know will never get approved for publication by Harmony Gold.

Couldn't possibly disagree more.

First of all, disingenuous to clain special insight into HG approvals. Most ideas havent't really been all that much wilder than brand new development histories for the VF-1 and destroids (not to mention the "Project Excalibur" reference), a new origin, background, structure, and history for both the post 1RW UEG and Southern Cross, the various Genesis Pits settings, adding a UEEF Marine Corps, and all the other things the 2nd ed has added/is adding.

Secondly, actual free discussion and exchange of ideas allows them to be vetted, refined, tweaked, examined from multiple angles, and put through a useful crucible to get some truly interesting stuff. That would be rather a large part of the point of the forums, yes? A place for brainstorming/spitballing.

Also, even if the chance of any particular idea coming out as a book is low, why shouldnt the desire for it becoming known a good thing? It helps point out flaws in the current approach, where things could improve, where the thinking of some fans is.

And fourth, regardless of any sort of actual book, people trading ideas is immensely useful for both GMs and players, introducing them to things to expand what they're doing in their games. Again, rather an integral factor of the forum's purpose.

So then, what I see little point in is suppressing the ideas of others.

[MikelAmroni]

So the takeaway of all of the colony discussion is that there is an absence of proof (either way) to the existence of colonies outside of the Solar System (except for Tirol). Similarly, there is an absence of hard proof that NO colonies were ever established outside of the solar system (except for Tirol). Seto is technically accurate that the absence of proof usually means the absence the subject, but (as has been repeatedly pointed out) the absence of hard definitive proof against their inclusion is similarly hard to come by.

Where you sit in regards to the likelihood of colonies depends largely on your level of optimism and desire for there to be colonies. Seto's stance is pretty well stated. GB, myself, and several others are of the opposite opinion. And that's okay. Agreeing to disagree is pretty much all we're going to get here, so agree to it folks! This makes at least the third thread I can think of where Seto has gone toe to toe with anyone trying to posit the possible existence of colonies. I think it's safe to say no one is changing his opinion on the matter, and he's not changing the opinion of those who think the idea has merit and basis within the show.

Seto, as a thought exercise not based entirely on strictly canon sources (using them as a basis, but not as a straightjacket), what sort of colonies would you posit could exist. Again, we're not talking strictly canon here. The lack of proof for them existing (or not existing) is clearly stated above. Please do not chase the rabbit of there not being colonies - you've CLEARLY stated your position. But I am interested in your take on the subject of possible colonies existing.

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My thoughts would be that there are a lot of failed or failing colonies, plus a few worlds which are basically massive military bases with manufacturing, mining, and agricultural concerns (food is an issue, and not having earth is a problem).

It would help to define colony though. The traditional view is a habitable planet that can be settled. That is a limiting definition. A colony can be any "mostly" non-mobile base which could be used for living space and the production of some resource that would necessitate the creation of the colony. A note - people are a resource, so a place where people could live and raise families would be a viable reason for a colony. Space Station Liberty could be considered a colony (for these purposes) because it is a place for crews to live and a place where things are produced (ships and mecha in this case).

I also think (my opinion) it likely that the Ark Angel Class may have been the grandest of the colony ships, able to carry everything in one trip to start a colony - but I reject that they are the ONLY class of ships meant for the establishment of human colonies. All you REALLY need are cargo ships, the means to transport and support families for the establishment of the colony, colonists, and a place to go. If you expand the definition to include systems without a habitable world (mining colonies set in asteroid belts, military production bases set in the orbit of a gas giant which is occasionally mined for necessary gases), then there are a LOT of options you can go with. Another option would be dedicated "living" ships not unlike the Island ships of Frontier, or the agricultural ships of Battlestar (examples only - obviously none of those could be used, as per the no conversion policy). When I was writing some of the background stuff for my Long Range Patrol game, I came up with the idea of "nursery ships." Basically a group of ships for the family members of crewmen to live on. One parent might "retire" to raise the child, while the other deploys to the ship like any other military deployment. In times of attack, the rest of the fleet would maneuver to let them escape with a (very) small escort while they fought off the main source of danger. It means not having to reconfigure military ships to accommodate families, but it gives the non-combatants limited access to full military support (specifically medical and logistical supply). And non-critical functions could be passed to these non-combatants as well, giving them "day jobs."

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As for pirates, the existence of colonies would allow for the existence and flourishing of pirates. My guess is that many early pirates would actually be cargo haulers who are down on their luck, or deserting military units looking for a means of resupply. And that really doesn't limit it to any specific race. What I'm most curious about is the possible alien races in the Robotech universe. Yes, Macross eliminated that for the most part by making every planet a descendent of a seeding project. Robotech has more diversity. Even in just those shown in the Original 85 - plus Prelude with the Sentinel's races. Human-based races are the most common (humanity, tirolians, zentraedi, praxians), but there are ursids, canids/felinids, and some sort of mutation based humanoid - not to mention the energy creatures of Spheris.

[Seto Kaiba]

Seto, as a thought exercise not based entirely on strictly canon sources (using them as a basis, but not as a straightjacket), what sort of colonies would you posit could exist. Again, we're not talking strictly canon here.

Hmm...

Assuming that no other aspect of Robotech's established setting and continuity were overturned, the "colonies" that I would be expecting to see would fall into two categories:

• Off-base living areas for UEEF garrison forces and their families on "liberated" planets like Tirol. Being on the front lines all the time would be absolutely nerve-shredding for the UEEF's very limited pool of soldiers, and with no real opportunity for their soldiers to leave the service, being able to rotate troops to and from bases behind the lines would be essential to maintaining morale.
  
• Small natural resource processing stations, with a crew of at most a few hundred people assigned to supervise armies of robots and automated factories that provide refined metals and other essential materials needed to maintain operational readiness.

Considering the state of Earth at the time the Expeditionary Forces left, I doubt the UEEF is sustaining itself by diverting manpower and resources to agriculture. I suspect they're getting by almost exclusively on synthetic foods produced from raw chemical stock and rendered-down waste products, and trading with their new allies for luxury items like liquor. The UEEF rank and file evidence pretty significant levels of distrust for aliens, so I think they'd be rather uncomfortable consuming alien crops or buying their food from aliens... and probably wouldn't trust the safety of either cultivating their own alien crops or introducing invasive species from Earth to an alien world.


Hopefully I'll get a response from Tommy that'll settle the matter soon.

All you REALLY need are cargo ships, the means to transport and support families for the establishment of the colony, colonists, and a place to go.

That last part is, I think, the real catch... Harmony Gold's descriptions of humanity's plans for space colonization suggest they were not sending ships to a known destination, but rather taking a very Macross-y approach of sending out colony ships to locate a suitable planet on their own. If they already had a planet picked out it'd be fairly simple to just dispatch a series of cargo ships... you'd only need to build a massively shooty colony ship like the Ark Angel if you thought it was going to be out there a LONG time and would need to keep the colonists safe in transit.

[glitterboy2098]

while the UEDF and later UEEF was sending ships out as early as 2016, those are specifically called scouting missions on the HG approved timeline. which suggests they were looking for planets to send people to. (in addition to looking for zent forces and the edge of the master's empire, i'm sure)

and there is nothing in the show to indicate that earth was following the "city-ship" model in robotech.. in fact given that one use given for the retired angel class colony ships is "bulk shipping" it is likely the colony ships were used mainly as transports to a destination, not as long term living spaces themselves. not gonna discount it, but i doubt it's as major a thing as it in in original macross continuity.

while i have no doubt that the UEEF's factory satellites have non-military personnel on them and 'off duty' facilities that make them defacto communities, the stated goal of colonization, according to 'the gloval initiative' mentioned in the invasion comic by lancer, is the preservation of the human race. being restricted to artificial environments like a factory satellite would seem counter productive to that.. for all the factory's size the growth potential of such a population would be much more limited than the same people on the surface of a habitable planet. not to mention vulnerability.. while both are probably equally vulnerable to outside attack, few planets ever have to worry that if you miss a maintenance cycle or break the wrong small parts that the local life support is gonna stop working..

no, i think settlements on actual planets are highly likely. all you really need is a few thousand people, some supplies, and some pre-fab buildings.

as for the reasons for the ark angel being so heavily armed.. i don;t think it was because it was supposed to be a long term living space. even the angel class colony ships certainly wouldn't have gone anywhere without an armed escort.. but remember they were retiring them when fighting with the invid (both the regent in master's space and the regis over earth) was the major focus.. earth's warships and mecha could defend against zentreadi or tyrolian fleets (more or less) and the 'stand off' tactics of all three races use in fleet actions (where fighting between fleets appears to occur mostly at longer ranges with missiles, beam weapons, and mecha strikes) even an unarmed ship like the Angel class could be counted on to be able to escape serious harm most of the time.

against the invid though that approach wouldn't work too well. even the regent seems to use huge swarms of mecha to overwhelm defenses and bring down enemy ships.. so a colony ship that includes heavy defenses and can contribute to its own fleet would be a good thing. plus, the assaults on invid held earth probably caused the UEEF to lose a lot of ships.. being able to assign a smaller escort to a colony ship because it could do some of its own fighting would certainly have been a good thing.
not to mention such ships could be pressed into service as planetary defense once it planted the colony.. or recalled and used as a straight up combat ship if needed.

[Kargan3033]

What I would like to see in the new sourcebook(s) are the ships of the RT factions(less so for the invid since they really don't use ships)

[Seto Kaiba]

while the UEDF and later UEEF was sending ships out as early as 2016, those are specifically called scouting missions on the HG approved timeline.

This is a false statement... they are not called scouting missions, they are preliminary navigational surveys carried out by advance scout vessels.

Preliminary navigational surveys are conducted with long-range advance scout vessels, laying the groundwork for the main Robotech Expeditionary Force.

which suggests they were looking for planets to send people to. (in addition to looking for zent forces and the edge of the master's empire, i'm sure)

If your previous statement were true, perhaps... but it's not. All that's suggested by the actual text is they wanted to map space in the projected path of their fleet to Tirol (the "original Pioneer expedition", per Tommy).

and there is nothing in the show to indicate that earth was following the "city-ship" model in robotech.. in fact given that one use given for the retired angel class colony ships is "bulk shipping" it is likely the colony ships were used mainly as transports to a destination, not as long term living spaces themselves. not gonna discount it, but i doubt it's as major a thing as it in in original macross continuity.

This is refuted by the "Colony Bays" present on the Ark Angel and post-2043 SDF-3 retrofit... and the Harmony Gold production materials that identified the original plan for the Ark Angel to play long-term home to the soldiers escaping Liberty station (ala the SDF-1 and Macross Island) during the war with the Haydonites.

for all the factory's size the growth potential of such a population would be much more limited than the same people on the surface of a habitable planet. not to mention vulnerability.. while both are probably equally vulnerable to outside attack, few planets ever have to worry that if you miss a maintenance cycle or break the wrong small parts that the local life support is gonna stop working..

As demonstrated in Shadow Chronicles, the factory satellites may be targets... but they're also defended by a not-insubstantial force. A colony of a few thousand people, with no ships, is not going to be able to fend off an Invid dinner party, let alone an actual attack. Better by far to simply establish civilian living quarters adjacent to existing bases, that way you don't have to create a new, dedicated garrison force to protect it... especially when ships are a commodity the UEEF explicitly has in short supply.

[ShadowLogan]

This is a false statement... they are not called scouting missions, they are preliminary navigational surveys carried out by advance scout vessels.

While they are technically called something, they basically are Scouting missions by another name since Scouting is about collection information.

This is refuted by the "Colony Bays" present on the Ark Angel and post-2043 SDF-3 retrofit... and the Harmony Gold production materials that identified the original plan for the Ark Angel to play long-term home to the soldiers escaping Liberty station (ala the SDF-1 and Macross Island) during the war with the Haydonites.

One problem with this, at least based on just the line art, is just how long are the colonists/passengers expected to be in those "colony bays"? That can go along way toward how they are setup and how the UEEF plans (or planned) to execute colonization. That doesn't mean they can't go a different route due to pressures by reconfiguring parts of the ship as they did on the SDF-1, but it also means that we can't say that is how colonization was to be executed if they changed their plans.

Based on the Ark Angel's stated size and room for passengers per AotSC, it makes more sense for those 750k people to be more for short term for the trip from PT A to PT B directly (or semi) rather than wandering looking for PT B. I do not dispute that you can fit 750k + crew in the AA, but the logistics of supporting them based on the SDF-1's return trip (where replenishing supplies at Mars was at least part of the reason for diverting in under 11-1/2 months) would seem to favor short trips rather than long ones with a population like that.

A colony of a few thousand people, with no ships, is not going to be able to fend off an Invid dinner party, let alone an actual attack. Better by far to simply establish civilian living quarters adjacent to existing bases, that way you don't have to create a new, dedicated garrison force to protect it... especially when ships are a commodity the UEEF explicitly has in short supply

And tossing in a few ships to such a colony to fend off Invid attack aren't going to matter much. The Invid used their mecha to dispatch ships in the past, no reason they can't do it again.

I don't think you need to establish them adjacent to existing bases either. If we are talking about moving large populations, there is a good chance they will be divided up among several sites to lower the risk of some calamity taking them all out. The military may or may not want to concentrate their forces in such an instance. They may also want to put some distance between them and the civilians for the same reason the civilians are separating. If a military attack comes the military base(s) will likely be targeted before civilians so being adjacent might not be the best place unless they are raiders/pirates.

We have no real idea how surfaces bases of the UEEF are setup to defend themselves from attacks from space. The UEDF (RDF and ASC) aren't very successful in that regard either.

[glitterboy2098]

and actually, invid would be more survivable on a planet.. on a planet you have a huge area to dissappear into when the invid arrive. quality of life would be reduced due to loss of infrastructure, but the people could survive, even conduct guerilla warfare to hinder some of the invid's activities until the UEEF can come to the rescue.

if they are on a factory sat or UEEF space outpost.. the civilians die when the invid destroy the sat or outpost.

now zentraedi would be harder to survive, since they are more willing to merely 'nuke the site from orbit' but we've seen at macross island that you can build underground shelters able to withstand orbital bombardments. the completion of such shelters would likely be one of the first major projects a colony does.. assumign they don;t just build their whole colony into such a shelter in the first place.
on a factory sat or space outpost.. a losing encounter with the zentreadi means death for the civilians when the zents pound the facility to scrap, or capture it and start extermination of all resistance.


Breetai talks about humans as being ignorant of space war tactics when he see's our cities.. well after the 1st war we have people like breetai and exodore who are familiar with things how how to minimize the threat of destruction to planetary locations.. it seems likely the UEEF would use that kind of information resource.

[Seto Kaiba]

While they are technically called something, they basically are Scouting missions by another name since Scouting is about collection information.

"Scouting" generally carries the connotation of looking for details of the enemy's disposition, location, and fortifications... this was nothing but navigational surveys.

One problem with this, at least based on just the line art, is just how long are the colonists/passengers expected to be in those "colony bays"?

That's a very good question... the answer, based on what Harmony Gold has said and indicated in their leaked production materials, is "as long as it takes to find somewhere suitable to kick them off the ship".

That doesn't mean they can't go a different route due to pressures by reconfiguring parts of the ship as they did on the SDF-1, but it also means that we can't say that is how colonization was to be executed if they changed their plans.

The funny part is that the Ark Angel design for the OVA was actually completed as a transformable warship, and they scrapped the transformation before going into production (apparently for legal reasons).

Based on the Ark Angel's stated size and room for passengers per AotSC, it makes more sense for those 750k people to be more for short term for the trip from PT A to PT B directly (or semi) rather than wandering looking for PT B. I do not dispute that you can fit 750k + crew in the AA, but the logistics of supporting them based on the SDF-1's return trip (where replenishing supplies at Mars was at least part of the reason for diverting in under 11-1/2 months) would seem to favor short trips rather than long ones with a population like that.

You couldn't fit 750,000 people into that ship, period, with how much war materiel is supposed to go in there... you'd achieve levels of population density that would make the most crowded cities on Earth look like ghost towns. I tend to discard the idea purely because it's ridiculous, and all the crew numbers in the Robotech stats are grossly exaggerated when compared to the animation.

EDIT: Also, if you pulled every single warm body off the ships seen in RTSC, you wouldn't have nearly enough people to fill even 1 Ark Angel-class ship, let alone several. You wouldn't even get to 10% capacity if you drained every crewman and pilot from all 390 ships of the fleet.

And tossing in a few ships to such a colony to fend off Invid attack aren't going to matter much. The Invid used their mecha to dispatch ships in the past, no reason they can't do it again.

All the more reason there wouldn't be colonies, yes? All but impossible to defend such a thing against the Invid's swarm tactics when you only have about 400 ships in your entire fleet... and the Regent is nowhere near as willing to live and let live as the Regess was.

We have no real idea how surfaces bases of the UEEF are setup to defend themselves from attacks from space. The UEDF (RDF and ASC) aren't very successful in that regard either.

Considering only one UEEF base we've seen thus far has been located on the surface of an inhabitable planet, and which did not appear to have any active defenses... it's not a good start.

and actually, invid would be more survivable on a planet.. on a planet you have a huge area to dissappear into when the invid arrive. quality of life would be reduced due to loss of infrastructure, but the people could survive, even conduct guerilla warfare to hinder some of the invid's activities until the UEEF can come to the rescue.

That might work against the Regess, who didn't care... but the old comics that Prelude adapted showed that to be a fairly bad idea against the Regent, and then there's the Haydonites who just want to blow up the planet you're on and call it a day.

assumign they don;t just build their whole colony into such a shelter in the first place.

At which point there's no appreciable difference between that and a space station...

Breetai talks about humans as being ignorant of space war tactics when he see's our cities.. well after the 1st war we have people like breetai and exodore who are familiar with things how how to minimize the threat of destruction to planetary locations.. it seems likely the UEEF would use that kind of information resource.

Stop and think. Breetai wouldn't know ANYTHING about how to defend a city... his culture (or lack thereof) had no conception of a civilian settlement (or civilians for that matter), and what works for a military base may not necessarily work for civilian living for long or short-term.

[eliakon]

While they are technically called something, they basically are Scouting missions by another name since Scouting is about collection information.

"Scouting" generally carries the connotation of looking for details of the enemy's disposition, location, and fortifications... this was nothing but navigational surveys.

Not really, you do scouting surveys to find out paths, to look for locations.....and navigational surveys would be used to chart courses to colonies just as well as to chart courses to Triol....

One problem with this, at least based on just the line art, is just how long are the colonists/passengers expected to be in those "colony bays"?

That's a very good question... the answer, based on what Harmony Gold has said and indicated in their leaked production materials, is "as long as it takes to find somewhere suitable to kick them off the ship".

So officially "we don't know"
But some people have an unofficial answer that is reputed to be 'as long as it takes to kick them off' (we don't know WHERE they would do so either....)

Based on the Ark Angel's stated size and room for passengers per AotSC, it makes more sense for those 750k people to be more for short term for the trip from PT A to PT B directly (or semi) rather than wandering looking for PT B. I do not dispute that you can fit 750k + crew in the AA, but the logistics of supporting them based on the SDF-1's return trip (where replenishing supplies at Mars was at least part of the reason for diverting in under 11-1/2 months) would seem to favor short trips rather than long ones with a population like that.

You couldn't fit 750,000 people into that ship, period, with how much war materiel is supposed to go in there... you'd achieve levels of population density that would make the most crowded cities on Earth look like ghost towns. I tend to discard the idea purely because it's ridiculous, and all the crew numbers in the Robotech stats are grossly exaggerated when compared to the animation.

1) I find it interesting that you are willing to dismiss parts of the material that you disagree with as 'ridiculous' but when faced with contradictions on other places you state that we must 'simply work with the given material' (generally this is known as moving the goal posts.....)
2) The Zentradi had cyro-sleep, so it is possible that some of those people are in sleep
3) I would refrerence Kwaloon City here.....or Japanese coffin hotels

And tossing in a few ships to such a colony to fend off Invid attack aren't going to matter much. The Invid used their mecha to dispatch ships in the past, no reason they can't do it again.

All the more reason there wouldn't be colonies, yes? All but impossible to defend such a thing against the Invid's swarm tactics when you only have about 400 ships in your entire fleet... and the Regent is nowhere near as willing to live and let live as the Regess was.

Sounds to me like MORE reason to have colonies
So you have back ups. And because planets are good places to hide, and its really REALLY hard to exterminate a planetary population completely. (Heck the RoD couldn't do it.....)

and actually, invid would be more survivable on a planet.. on a planet you have a huge area to dissappear into when the invid arrive. quality of life would be reduced due to loss of infrastructure, but the people could survive, even conduct guerilla warfare to hinder some of the invid's activities until the UEEF can come to the rescue.

That might work against the Regess, who didn't care... but the old comics that Prelude adapted showed that to be a fairly bad idea against the Regent, and then there's the Haydonites who just want to blow up the planet you're on and call it a day.

Well lets see since up until the start of the Haydonite war no one knew they were a threat to the colonies......there would be no reason to have that as a consideration in why not to plan them. And the Regent doesn't seem to be THAT much more efficient at planetary population extermination.....

assumign they don;t just build their whole colony into such a shelter in the first place.

At which point there's no appreciable difference between that and a space station...

There is the huge difference that if you lose the shelter you can move into the surrounding land. If you lose the station you die.

Breetai talks about humans as being ignorant of space war tactics when he see's our cities.. well after the 1st war we have people like breetai and exodore who are familiar with things how how to minimize the threat of destruction to planetary locations.. it seems likely the UEEF would use that kind of information resource.

Stop and think. Breetai wouldn't know ANYTHING about how to defend a city... his culture (or lack thereof) had no conception of a civilian settlement (or civilians for that matter), and what works for a military base may not necessarily work for civilian living for long or short-term.

Breetai would know how to ATTACK it though. And he obviously knows enough about defense to recognize defenses (or lack of them) on sight. He can provide all sorts of information on how space attacks are carried out, and what the traditional ways that defenders try to stop them are.
And while the Zentradi didn't have civilians they were tasked with defending the Masters, who did....

[Seto Kaiba]

So officially "we don't know"

Well, sort of... because the canon Robotech universe has no depictions, explicit mentions, or descriptions of colony ships ever being used for their intended purpose, and development and production materials from the Shadow Chronicles film indicate it was never intended to have the Ark Angel function in that capacity either.

But some people have an unofficial answer that is reputed to be 'as long as it takes to kick them off' (we don't know WHERE they would do so either....)

We have a roundabout answer from Harmony Gold's development materials that suggests the ships were of the "wander the galaxy looking for a suitable planet" type, and were not meant to be launched with a specific destination in mind.

1) I find it interesting that you are willing to dismiss parts of the material that you disagree with as 'ridiculous' but when faced with contradictions on other places you state that we must 'simply work with the given material' (generally this is known as moving the goal posts.....)

Not quite... I'm dismissing this part of the material for a sound, in-universe reason. There is no logistical way to fit 750,000 people and all the other things that need to go into the ship in the ship's physical dimensions. Its population density would be greater than any modern city, and there simply aren't enough people to fill even one of those ships to that capacity. If you emptied every single ship seen in the Battle of Reflex Point in RTSC, you wouldn't get to 100,000 even using the exaggerated numbers in Robotech.com's Infopedia (which don't match the animation even slightly)... and that's supposed to be practically every ship the UEEF had!

You're talking about cramming 3/4 of a million people into something like 2 square kilometers (once you take out the hangars, the main gun, reactor space, engine space, etc.). Kowloon and Manila hover around 43,000 people per square kilometer. The Ark Angel's more like 350,000 people per square kilometer. That is INSANE.

2) The Zentradi had cyro-sleep, so it is possible that some of those people are in sleep

This is purely an invention of the RPG's writers... and does not exist in the canon Robotech 'verse or the original Macross 'verse.

So you have back ups. And because planets are good places to hide, and its really REALLY hard to exterminate a planetary population completely. (Heck the RoD couldn't do it.....)

I know the RPG asserts so, but the actual show differs on that note... "total annihilation" and all that.

And the Regent doesn't seem to be THAT much more efficient at planetary population extermination.....

He was pretty darned efficient... based on the old Sentinels lore adapted for Prelude, he kept the UEEF on the back foot for twenty-plus years and conquered almost every inhabitable planet in the known universe. Of course, since the Haydonites trashed his original homeworld and the Masters did in his second homeworld, he learned from the best.

[eliakon]

So officially "we don't know"

Well, sort of... because the canon Robotech universe has no depictions, explicit mentions, or descriptions of colony ships ever being used for their intended purpose, and development and production materials from the Shadow Chronicles film indicate it was never intended to have the Ark Angel function in that capacity either.

That isn't what I was saying though is it. That is in fact changing what I said. Altering my quotes and changing what I said doesn't alter what was actually said. For a reminder the full quotes were

One problem with this, at least based on just the line art, is just how long are the colonists/passengers expected to be in those "colony bays"?

That's a very good question... the answer, based on what Harmony Gold has said and indicated in their leaked production materials, is "as long as it takes to find somewhere suitable to kick them off the ship".

So officially "we don't know"

You will note that I was not talking about if ships were used. I was talking about how long the people would stay on THIS ship

But some people have an unofficial answer that is reputed to be 'as long as it takes to kick them off' (we don't know WHERE they would do so either....)

We have a roundabout answer from Harmony Gold's development materials that suggests the ships were of the "wander the galaxy looking for a suitable planet" type, and were not meant to be launched with a specific destination in mind.

Which is unofficial since it has never been officially released, nor has it been officially added to the official materials list....

1) I find it interesting that you are willing to dismiss parts of the material that you disagree with as 'ridiculous' but when faced with contradictions on other places you state that we must 'simply work with the given material' (generally this is known as moving the goal posts.....)

Not quite... I'm dismissing this part of the material for a sound, in-universe reason. There is no logistical way to fit 750,000 people and all the other things that need to go into the ship in the ship's physical dimensions. Its population density would be greater than any modern city, and there simply aren't enough people to fill even one of those ships to that capacity. If you emptied every single ship seen in the Battle of Reflex Point in RTSC, you wouldn't get to 100,000 even using the exaggerated numbers in Robotech.com's Infopedia (which don't match the animation even slightly)... and that's supposed to be practically every ship the UEEF had!

You're talking about cramming 3/4 of a million people into something like 2 square kilometers (once you take out the hangars, the main gun, reactor space, engine space, etc.). Kowloon and Manila hover around 43,000 people per square kilometer. The Ark Angel's more like 350,000 people per square kilometer. That is INSANE.

And yet it is no more insane that we have a population of millions just decades after you purport that the sum total population is reduced to 70,000. This is why I say that this is both cherry picking and goal post moving. You can either accept all facts presented, or you can dismiss inconvenient ones. You cant have both.
As for the population? *shrugs* I would like to point out that it has ROOM for 750,000 colonists, not that it HAS 750,000 colonists.
(Which btw suggests that they had the population to move.....and if they were not getting them from earth......*shrugs*)

2) The Zentradi had cyro-sleep, so it is possible that some of those people are in sleep

This is purely an invention of the RPG's writers... and does not exist in the canon Robotech 'verse or the original Macross 'verse.

So then how did the masters take a Zor clone out of stasis?
I believe that they take some of the Zentradi soldiers out of sleep as well....

So you have back ups. And because planets are good places to hide, and its really REALLY hard to exterminate a planetary population completely. (Heck the RoD couldn't do it.....)

I know the RPG asserts so, but the actual show differs on that note... "total annihilation" and all that.

Since the animation shows survivors, and the show talks about survivors....I will go with 'there were survivors for $1000 Alex'

And the Regent doesn't seem to be THAT much more efficient at planetary population extermination.....

He was pretty darned efficient... based on the old Sentinels lore adapted for Prelude, he kept the UEEF on the back foot for twenty-plus years and conquered almost every inhabitable planet in the known universe. Of course, since the Haydonites trashed his original homeworld and the Masters did in his second homeworld, he learned from the best.

Just because he conquered planets doesn't mean he was able to completely exterminate their populations.
A=/=B

[Jefffar]

I don't think we can use the number of visible ships in TSC as a useful guide to how big the UEEF fleet really was any more than we can use the number of visible ships in Macross to tell us the size of the Zentradei Armada. In both cases we can only get an 'at least' figure, which as demonstrated with the Zentraedi Armada, may be far below the actual total of ships.

I don't think we can't discount the possibility of sleeper ships either. Even without them, Macross Saga shows that a surprisingly large population can be kept in surprising luxury inside a relatively small space aboard a robotech spaceship.

[Seto Kaiba]

That isn't what I was saying though is it. That is in fact changing what I said. Altering my quotes and changing what I said doesn't alter what was actually said.

What you said was not altered, I merely split your statement in two to address both WHY there is no direct answer to the question and WHAT the material from Harmony Gold indicates. It changed neither your statement nor the answer to it.

Which is unofficial since it has never been officially released, nor has it been officially added to the official materials list....

It's Harmony Gold production material, it's as official as official gets.

And yet it is no more insane that we have a population of millions just decades after you purport that the sum total population is reduced to 70,000. This is why I say that this is both cherry picking and goal post moving. You can either accept all facts presented, or you can dismiss inconvenient ones. You cant have both.

An amusing distortion of what was actually said...

The refutation of the "millions" population is in accordance with Harmony Gold's own official policy for dealing with post-TV series material that contradicts the series plot... which states on two separate occasions, in two separate sagas, that only 70,000 people survived the rain of death.

The absence of sufficient people to make up the alleged population of 750,000 on those ships is, likewise, based on Harmony Gold official materials... the ship crew sizes, footage of RTSC, RTSC and OSM fleet count numbers for the 3rd ERF. There aren't enough people in space, per official Robotech sources, to fill ONE Ark Angel-class ship to anywhere near the stated capacity, let alone multiple, and the population density figures would produce living conditions that were unthinkably awful. More crowded than any city in human history.

As for the population? *shrugs* I would like to point out that it has ROOM for 750,000 colonists, not that it HAS 750,000 colonists.

My point is that, based on the official figures, there's no possible way you could claim to have room for 750,000 colonists on that thing...

(Which btw suggests that they had the population to move.....and if they were not getting them from earth......*shrugs*)

Just a plot hole, I'm afraid... since HG never intended to have the ships used for their stated purpose.

With barely 87,000 UEEF soldiers in the entire fleet in 2044, they'd never have enough people to use even one of those ships at full or even half capacity.

So then how did the masters take a Zor clone out of stasis?

That's Tirolian technology, they do things differently (and Zor was established repeatedly to be a rather special (read "unique") case.

I believe that they take some of the Zentradi soldiers out of sleep as well....

There are no stasis pods or anything of that nature depicted in the Macross Saga... it's something exclusive to the RPG, done so the Zentradi ships can carry far, FAR more soldiers than they canonically would. They did it in the Macross II game though too...

Since the animation shows survivors, and the show talks about survivors....I will go with 'there were survivors for $1000 Alex'

There were survivors... on the SDF-1. That's what the show tells us, friend. 70,000 people on the SDF-1, and Leonard tells us that only 70,000 people survived the rain of death... doesn't take much to put those together.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't think we can use the number of visible ships in TSC as a useful guide to how big the UEEF fleet really was any more than we can use the number of visible ships in Macross to tell us the size of the Zentradei Armada.

Big difference there... the fleet that arrived at Earth in 2044 was, per the series, supposed to be the vast majority of (if not the full strength of) the UEEF, and it's in a position where we can count the entire thing by eye.

The Zentradi fleet's numbers are established by dialog, and are frankly too massive to animate (as they encircle the entire Earth).

I don't think we can't discount the possibility of sleeper ships either. Even without them, Macross Saga shows that a surprisingly large population can be kept in surprising luxury inside a relatively small space aboard a robotech spaceship.

There's no demonstrated UEEF stasis technology... so I think we can safely discount it.

The population density aboard the SDF-1 was high but not unworkable for the space... it'd be comparable to some of the more populous cities on Earth today. What they're claiming for the Ark ANgel is an order of magnitude worse than the most populous cities in human history.

[eliakon]

That isn't what I was saying though is it. That is in fact changing what I said. Altering my quotes and changing what I said doesn't alter what was actually said.

What you said was not altered, I merely split your statement in two to address both WHY there is no direct answer to the question and WHAT the material from Harmony Gold indicates. It changed neither your statement nor the answer to it.

No, you took my statement out of context, and then tried to apply it to something that was not being discussed.

Which is unofficial since it has never been officially released, nor has it been officially added to the official materials list....

It's Harmony Gold production material, it's as official as official gets.

I missed that on the list of approved canon materials. Can you provide a citation for it?
(Or a citation for the claim that this is 'final cut' and not subject to change?)

And yet it is no more insane that we have a population of millions just decades after you purport that the sum total population is reduced to 70,000. This is why I say that this is both cherry picking and goal post moving. You can either accept all facts presented, or you can dismiss inconvenient ones. You cant have both.

An amusing distortion of what was actually said...

The refutation of the "millions" population is in accordance with Harmony Gold's own official policy for dealing with post-TV series material that contradicts the series plot... which states on two separate occasions, in two separate sagas, that only 70,000 people survived the rain of death.

Except that is not the case is it.
The issue has been argued to death on other threads, and I don't really want to hijack this one on it but...
Leonords statement is not proof. It is a personal statement about a zentradi assault. It could be about the RoD or about Kyrons assault
on New Macross. I cant even LOCATE the other statement.

The absence of sufficient people to make up the alleged population of 750,000 on those ships is, likewise, based on Harmony Gold official materials... the ship crew sizes, footage of RTSC, RTSC and OSM fleet count numbers for the 3rd ERF. There aren't enough people in space, per official Robotech sources, to fill ONE Ark Angel-class ship to anywhere near the stated capacity, let alone multiple, and the population density figures would produce living conditions that were unthinkably awful. More crowded than any city in human history.

This is circular logic
First off we don't have ANY official numbers on the number of people in space (unless you have one.....)
Second a claim that there are not enough people to run a colony operation as proof that there isn't a colony operation (That would be the source of those people) is circular.
Third it could easily be predicated on using the population of earth once they reclaim the earth

As for the population? *shrugs* I would like to point out that it has ROOM for 750,000 colonists, not that it HAS 750,000 colonists.

My point is that, based on the official figures, there's no possible way you could claim to have room for 750,000 colonists on that thing...

Not hard at all if we use stasis

(Which btw suggests that they had the population to move.....and if they were not getting them from earth......*shrugs*)

Just a plot hole, I'm afraid... since HG never intended to have the ships used for their stated purpose.

With barely 87,000 UEEF soldiers in the entire fleet in 2044, they'd never have enough people to use even one of those ships at full or even half capacity.

Do you have an official citation for that number?

So then how did the masters take a Zor clone out of stasis?

That's Tirolian technology, they do things differently (and Zor was established repeatedly to be a rather special (read "unique") case.

Do you have support for your rather extraordinary claim that the Masters stasis technology is confined solely and uniquely to Zor? Because that's a HUGE claim to make (that they have a technology, they use it on screen, but that it is only useable on one person...ever)

I believe that they take some of the Zentradi soldiers out of sleep as well....

There are no stasis pods or anything of that nature depicted in the Macross Saga... it's something exclusive to the RPG, done so the Zentradi ships can carry far, FAR more soldiers than they canonically would. They did it in the Macross II game though too...

The Masters are shown to have stasis
The RPG is considered by HG a secondary source that is official where it doesn't contradict the anime
There is no statements in the show that their ISNT stasis
The conclusion would be....that ROBOTECH has stasis

Since the animation shows survivors, and the show talks about survivors....I will go with 'there were survivors for $1000 Alex'

There were survivors... on the SDF-1. That's what the show tells us, friend. 70,000 people on the SDF-1, and Leonard tells us that only 70,000 people survived the rain of death... doesn't take much to put those together.

Leonard tells us that 70,000 people survived....
Too bad he is not an ex-cathedra source but a person making a political speech
Also too bad that he doesn't say 'rain of death' but 'the zentradi holocost'...so it could be the massacre at New Macross (which he talks about in his next sentence....)

[eliakon]

BTW, Kwoloon city had a population density of around 1,255,000 people per square KM

Which given the size of the Ark Angel colony pod....means you should be able to fit 750,000 people in that space

[Seto Kaiba]

I missed that on the list of approved canon materials. Can you provide a citation for it?
(Or a citation for the claim that this is 'final cut' and not subject to change?)

It's production material for Shadow Chronicles...

Leonords statement is not proof. It is a personal statement about a zentradi assault. It could be about the RoD or about Kyrons assault

It's a statement about the Rain of Death. Even the RPG confirms that the "Zentradi Holocaust" refers to the rain of death.

This is circular logic

No, it's sound logic... denial won't change that.

First off we don't have ANY official numbers on the number of people in space (unless you have one.....)

We have official numbers (ridiculous though they are) for the UEEF's crew counts and we know how many ships were in the UEEF fleet, alleged to be the bulk if not the entirety of their forces, that attacked Earth in 2044. Knowing how many people are on the ships, and how many ships there are of each type, it becomes a matter of simple arithmatic (if we assume the ships are actually fully crewed... all evidence in the animation is that they are not crewed to anywhere near the levels claimed on the Infopedia).

Second a claim that there are not enough people to run a colony operation as proof that there isn't a colony operation (That would be the source of those people) is circular.

That's not the claim, I don't need to argue the non-existence of colonies because none have ever appeared or been mentioned... so there is no proof that they exist. What I stated was there weren't enough people to fill even one colony ship, which is true based on Harmony Gold's own published numbers for ship crews.

Not hard at all if we use stasis

But there is absolutely no evidence to support the contention that the UEEF (or humanity in general) possess stasis technology.

Do you have support for your rather extraordinary claim that the Masters stasis technology is confined solely and uniquely to Zor? Because that's a HUGE claim to make (that they have a technology, they use it on screen, but that it is only useable on one person...ever)

It's the only time the technology is even mentioned, and it's being used specifically for the difficult/failure-prone revival of Zor.

The RPG is considered by HG a secondary source that is official where it doesn't contradict the anime

Incorrect. Harmony Gold has never once included the RPG on their list of canon sources... they even disowned the previous edition with prejudice for its many deviations from the Robotech setting.

(Considering a licensed RPG canon is almost unheard-of, to be frank...)

[Seto Kaiba]

BTW, Kwoloon city had a population density of around 1,255,000 people per square KM

You mean Kowloon City, in Hong Kong? Its population density is 36,000 per square kilometer. Its total population is only 362,501.

The most population-dense city in the world is Manila, with 42,857 per square kilometer.

[eliakon]

I missed that on the list of approved canon materials. Can you provide a citation for it?
(Or a citation for the claim that this is 'final cut' and not subject to change?)

It's production material for Shadow Chronicles...

But its not actually
1) released
2) official
that's my point. Its just 'proposed production material' at this point. Its not canon material, yet

Leonords statement is not proof. It is a personal statement about a zentradi assault. It could be about the RoD or about Kyrons assault

It's a statement about the Rain of Death. Even the RPG confirms that the "Zentradi Holocaust" refers to the rain of death.

Its still a personal statement in a political speech that may or may not be accurate that may or may not be about the RoD....

This is circular logic

No, it's sound logic... denial won't change that.

Its circular for the reasons I citied...

First off we don't have ANY official numbers on the number of people in space (unless you have one.....)

We have official numbers (ridiculous though they are) for the UEEF's crew counts and we know how many ships were in the UEEF fleet, alleged to be the bulk if not the entirety of their forces, that attacked Earth in 2044. Knowing how many people are on the ships, and how many ships there are of each type, it becomes a matter of simple arithmatic (if we assume the ships are actually fully crewed... all evidence in the animation is that they are not crewed to anywhere near the levels claimed on the Infopedia).

Which now begs a couple questions
Your claiming that there are no other people in space....
SO what about the people on Triol? How many people are there there?
If there are colonies how many people are there on them?
With out definitive statements on these and other issues we don't actually have official numbers on the number of people in space. ALL you did was just tell us the MINIMUM number of people that there are, not the maximum.....


[

quote="eliakon"]Second a claim that there are not enough people to run a colony operation as proof that there isn't a colony operation (That would be the source of those people) is circular.

That's not the claim, I don't need to argue the non-existence of colonies because none have ever appeared or been mentioned... so there is no proof that they exist. What I stated was there weren't enough people to fill even one colony ship, which is true based on Harmony Gold's own published numbers for ship crews.[/quote]
Your claim is that there are not enough people. And as proof of this you exclude the presence of colonies.
If there are colonies then there are enough people. There are only enough people if you exclude the colonies. That's circular

Also, as we have argued to death. You have only shown that no specific colony is named, not that they don't exist (and to do so requires dismissing all contrary evidence as 'irrelivent' which is not sound logic)
Nor have you shown that HG has put out numbers that prove there are enough people. Just that there is a minimum number of people in space, and that THAT number is not enough. These are not the same thing.

Not hard at all if we use stasis

But there is absolutely no evidence to support the contention that the UEEF (or humanity in general) possess stasis technology.

Other than the evidence I provided you mean?

Do you have support for your rather extraordinary claim that the Masters stasis technology is confined solely and uniquely to Zor? Because that's a HUGE claim to make (that they have a technology, they use it on screen, but that it is only useable on one person...ever)

It's the only time the technology is even mentioned, and it's being used specifically for the difficult/failure-prone revival of Zor.

That doesn't prove anything. They mentioned it. Ergo it exists. They don't have to mention something multiple times for it to be common. That's not how it works. If they mention it in the show, it exists.

The RPG is considered by HG a secondary source that is official where it doesn't contradict the anime

Incorrect. Harmony Gold has never once included the RPG on their list of canon sources... they even disowned the previous edition with prejudice for its many deviations from the Robotech setting.

(Considering a licensed RPG canon is almost unheard-of, to be frank...)

The RPG books are listed on the infopeda on the website.....
Which makes me think that HG thinks they are valid where they do not contradict the show.......
Note that not ALL the books are listed the same way.
Several of the books are listed as Core, others are listed as Extended Continuity.
But if the book is listed as Core Continuity by HG, then it is, by definition, Core Continuity...

[eliakon]

BTW, Kwoloon city had a population density of around 1,255,000 people per square KM

You mean Kowloon City, in Hong Kong? Its population density is 36,000 per square kilometer. Its total population is only 362,501.

The most population-dense city in the world is Manila, with 42,857 per square kilometer.

No the specific 'Kowloon Walled City', a small fort/megabuilding inside the city of Kowloon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kowloon_Walled_City

[Seto Kaiba]

But its not actually
1) released
2) official

I'm not talking about sequels, I'm talking about material for the RTSC movie itself. So you're 0 for 2.

Its still a personal statement in a political speech that may or may not be accurate that may or may not be about the RoD....

It's corroborated in the Macross Saga, so your argument is officially invalid.

Which now begs a couple questions
Your claiming that there are no other people in space....
SO what about the people on Triol? How many people are there there?

The people there are presented as crew from the SDF-3 and Space Station Liberty, it does not appear to have been intended to be a permanent base.

If there are colonies how many people are there on them?

No colonies officially exist, so that's a big fat zero until proven otherwise.

With out definitive statements on these and other issues we don't actually have official numbers on the number of people in space. ALL you did was just tell us the MINIMUM number of people that there are, not the maximum.....

Neither, actually... as a high-side estimate of what would comprise the majority of the population, because per the series the UEEF as a whole came back to liberate Earth.

Your claim is that there are not enough people. And as proof of this you exclude the presence of colonies.
If there are colonies then there are enough people. There are only enough people if you exclude the colonies. That's circular

No, it's a straight statement because there have been no depictions or even mentions of colonies existing outside the Sol system in any canon source, which means there are no colonies until such time as a colony is mentioned or appears in an official source. So without colonies and no access to Earth, we have to assume that the people who would become colonists would be out in space, as part of the UEEF. Because there being no civilians in space has been a part of the lore for close on thirty years, that means that it has to be coming from UEEF soldiers and their families, and we know roughly how many ships the UEEF had before the Battle of Reflex Point in 2044 thanks to RTSC (or the OSM, two different numbers but the same result).

Other than the evidence I provided you mean?

Other than the complete and total absence of evidence you provided.

That doesn't prove anything. They mentioned it. Ergo it exists.

The Robotech Masters are depicted with it, nobody else. Therefore, the Robotech Masters are likely the only ones with access to the technology... and even they are only shown using it for very special purposes.

Just because one faction in the show has it doesn't mean everyone does... that's not how it works.

The RPG books are listed on the infopeda on the website.....

Only in the bibliography... which also lists all of the comics and novelizations that Harmony Gold disowned from the official canon universe.

But if the book is listed as Core Continuity by HG, then it is, by definition, Core Continuity...

Which, per the page, only identifies what the books were adapted from (if anything)... not their canon status. Misrepresenting the website's contents will not make your argument valid.

No the specific 'Kowloon Walled City', a small fort/megabuilding inside the city of Kowloon

The population for which was only ever an estimate... and, as noted in the wikipedia article, often mistakenly included neighboring villages and towns like Sai Tau Tsuen in the Walled City's population. The living conditions therein are also mentioned as being a bit on the hellish side...

Assuming you could use the entire footprint of the ship, the Ark Angel would have a population density of approximately 467,290 people per square kilometer... about ten times that of Earth's most populous functioning city. That's assuming the ship is one massive hollow box without engines, reactors, hangars, weapons, etc. It gets worse if you factor that stuff in.

They shut the Walled City in Kowloon down because it WASN'T workable even with supplies from outside and no need to recycle the air... and that was only 33,000 people! This is almost 23 times as many people, who are going to need proportionately more food and supplies and so on. It's absurd with just the number of people... with the logistics involved, it's pretty much a nightmare.

[Jefffar]

I don't think we can use the number of visible ships in TSC as a useful guide to how big the UEEF fleet really was any more than we can use the number of visible ships in Macross to tell us the size of the Zentradei Armada.

Big difference there... the fleet that arrived at Earth in 2044 was, per the series, supposed to be the vast majority of (if not the full strength of) the UEEF, and it's in a position where we can count the entire thing by eye.

The Zentradi fleet's numbers are established by dialog, and are frankly too massive to animate (as they encircle the entire Earth).

Where does it say in Shadow Chronicles that it's the entire fleet above earth? Where in Shadow Chronicles is it indicated that all of the ships involved are the ones on screen? We hear about a sizable force being planetside before the assault but never see how it gets there. Could there be other ships off screen that were responsible for getting that force in place?

By the same token, are all the Clamships we see in Shadow Chronicles representative of the entire force or are there more somewhere else? If it is the entire force of Clamships, one wonders how the Invid wee able to actually subjugate Earth with such limited numbers.



Incidentally, production materials probably should not be taken as a representation of the full capabilities of an item. Production materials are made while production is in process and may be subject to change before the final version is released. They can be used as rough guides and estimates where other materials are not present, but they can't be expected to be authoritative of what the actual stats will be until corroborated through a completed product.

[eliakon]

But its not actually
1) released
2) official

I'm not talking about sequels, I'm talking about material for the RTSC movie itself. So you're 0 for 2.

So can you provide a source for these materials then? Because as far as I know of the only officially released materials are the movie itself and the art book. If you have another officially released material I would be interested to know of it.

Its still a personal statement in a political speech that may or may not be accurate that may or may not be about the RoD....

It's corroborated in the Macross Saga, so your argument is officially invalid.

Page and Paragraph? (and if its from the RPG weren't you just arguing that they are not a valid source?)
Or episode and time stamp?

Which now begs a couple questions
Your claiming that there are no other people in space....
SO what about the people on Triol? How many people are there there?

The people there are presented as crew from the SDF-3 and Space Station Liberty, it does not appear to have been intended to be a permanent base.

So you are claiming that there are no other people AT ALL in space other than the crew of those ships we see in the battle of Reflex point.

If there are colonies how many people are there on them?

No colonies officially exist, so that's a big fat zero until proven otherwise.

Again your using the circular logic here

With out definitive statements on these and other issues we don't actually have official numbers on the number of people in space. ALL you did was just tell us the MINIMUM number of people that there are, not the maximum.....

Neither, actually... as a high-side estimate of what would comprise the majority of the population, because per the series the UEEF as a whole came back to liberate Earth.

No this is a minimum count. You gave us the count of the ships you could count on screen. That means that you are saying that those people are all the people in space. That's a minimum. That's not a maximum and its not an official number.

Your claim is that there are not enough people. And as proof of this you exclude the presence of colonies.
If there are colonies then there are enough people. There are only enough people if you exclude the colonies. That's circular

No, it's a straight statement because there have been no depictions or even mentions of colonies existing outside the Sol system in any canon source, which means there are no colonies until such time as a colony is mentioned or appears in an official source. So without colonies and no access to Earth, we have to assume that the people who would become colonists would be out in space, as part of the UEEF. Because there being no civilians in space has been a part of the lore for close on thirty years, that means that it has to be coming from UEEF soldiers and their families, and we know roughly how many ships the UEEF had before the Battle of Reflex Point in 2044 thanks to RTSC (or the OSM, two different numbers but the same result).

Yes we all know your stance is that you do not want there to be colonies. But as has been repeatedly shown
1) just because something hasn't been shown does not prove it doesn't exist
2) there is a lot of compelling evidence that there IS an active colony program

That doesn't prove anything. They mentioned it. Ergo it exists.

The Robotech Masters are depicted with it, nobody else. Therefore, the Robotech Masters are likely the only ones with access to the technology... and even they are only shown using it for very special purposes.

Just because one faction in the show has it doesn't mean everyone does... that's not how it works.[/quote]
What this means is that we know, for a fact, that this technology exists.
What we do not know (from the animation) is how wide spread it is.
There is a difference

The RPG books are listed on the infopeda on the website.....

Only in the bibliography... which also lists all of the comics and novelizations that Harmony Gold disowned from the official canon universe.

Yes, note that those are listed as 'extended' and not 'core'

But if the book is listed as Core Continuity by HG, then it is, by definition, Core Continuity...

Which, per the page, only identifies what the books were adapted from (if anything)... not their canon status. Misrepresenting the website's contents will not make your argument valid.

Hey it has a list of core continuity. Just because you don't like the list doesn't make it less valid
That is why it has the identifier at the bottom. citations in white are listed as core continuity, blue is extended, and yellow is....well yellow appears to be current works but its not clearly labeled so we don't know.

No the specific 'Kowloon Walled City', a small fort/megabuilding inside the city of Kowloon

The population for which was only ever an estimate... and, as noted in the wikipedia article, often mistakenly included neighboring villages and towns like Sai Tau Tsuen in the Walled City's population. The living conditions therein are also mentioned as being a bit on the hellish side...

Assuming you could use the entire footprint of the ship, the Ark Angel would have a population density of approximately 467,290 people per square kilometer... about ten times that of Earth's most populous functioning city. That's assuming the ship is one massive hollow box without engines, reactors, hangars, weapons, etc. It gets worse if you factor that stuff in.

They shut the Walled City in Kowloon down because it WASN'T workable even with supplies from outside and no need to recycle the air... and that was only 33,000 people! This is almost 23 times as many people, who are going to need proportionately more food and supplies and so on. It's absurd with just the number of people... with the logistics involved, it's pretty much a nightmare.

*shrugs* I am pointing out that the density figures CAN be done (especially when one remembers to add in vertical. things go UP after all....
And since we have the canon examples from Macross and Southern Cross of cities in spaceships seeming to work....

[Seto Kaiba]

Where does it say in Shadow Chronicles that it's the entire fleet above earth?

In the series it's supposed to be the entire UEEF... in RTSC, it's "most" rather than all of the UEEF (per AotSC pg21).

Where in Shadow Chronicles is it indicated that all of the ships involved are the ones on screen?

We see the entire fleet assembling... no mention is made of any other fleets attacking Earth. The fleet numbers exactly 395 ships arranged into 31 distinct groups... 30 literally-identical (copy-pasted) groups of 1 Ikazuchi-class ship and 12 Garfish-class ships, and 1 core group containing the SDF-4 and 4 Shimakaze-class ships. 3 ships are specifically noted as being absent from the fleet action... the Icarus, Pioneer, and Deucalion.

The only catch in the math is that the Shimakaze-class does not have a stated crew size. Assuming it's comparable to a fully loaded Garfish-class ship, that gives us a total operating crew size for the bulk of the UEEF fleet of 97,572... quite a few of whom died horribly and messily in the neutron-s missile test or 3rd ERF mission to Earth, making that number a generous high-end estimate, and 3,800 or so are officially missing in action on the SDF-3.

By emptying every single UEEF ship left after the Battle of Reflex Point, it's odds on you'd barely get to 10% of the Ark Angel's alleged capacity.

We hear about a sizable force being planetside before the assault but never see how it gets there.

Per the series, this refers to the forces that were stranded on the planet during the two previous attempts to liberate Earth... the movie confirms this by having their point of contact be none other than Scott Bernard.

Incidentally, production materials probably should not be taken as a representation of the full capabilities of an item. Production materials are made while production is in process and may be subject to change before the final version is released. They can be used as rough guides and estimates where other materials are not present, but they can't be expected to be authoritative of what the actual stats will be until corroborated through a completed product.

This is material from very close to the final production art... so it's an almost-ideal situation accuracy-wise.

[glitterboy2098]

so the density figures are too high for long term habitation? guess that means they weren't doing the "city in space' thing then, since HG's figures have to be accepted (unless and until HG comes out with another official product that changes them)

this would suggest a colony dynamic of "brief trips, then dropping the people off"
in other words, your fairly typical space opera colonization of planets.

(it also suggests that they expected to have several million colonists to move around, since each Ark Angel class carrier three quarters of a million people, not counting crew.. and they were building several of them at space station liberty..)

[Seto Kaiba]

So you are claiming that there are no other people AT ALL in space other than the crew of those ships we see in the battle of Reflex point.

Officially, that fleet is "most of the UEEF"... so it's the vast majority, not the entirety (we know Liberty station was still lightly crewed during the assault).

Yes we all know your stance is that you do not want there to be colonies. But as has been repeatedly shown
1) just because something hasn't been shown does not prove it doesn't exist

At the risk of reminding you of the facts, with no evidence to establish the existence of a thing the most sensible and logical answer is that it doesn't exist.

2) there is a lot of compelling evidence that there IS an active colony program

There is evidence of a (thwarted) intent to have an active colony program... that is not the same thing as actually having an active colony program.

What this means is that we know, for a fact, that this technology exists.
What we do not know (from the animation) is how wide spread it is.

There is no evidence that any faction other than the Robotech Masters possess it, and since they've come down with a bad case of dead there is no reason to assume anyone else possesses this technology.

Hey it has a list of core continuity. Just because you don't like the list doesn't make it less valid

No, it doesn't.

Core Continuity:
adapted from the original television episodes

All that color code means, per the page itself, is what source the material was adapted from (if any).

And since we have the canon examples from Macross and Southern Cross of cities in spaceships seeming to work....

With much lower population densities... the Masters clearly clever folks, their ships (based on official dimensions and populations) have a population density of just 7,700 people per square kilometer. Even the SDF-1's wasn't too unworkable thanks to the heavily tiered city and usage of most of the ship's interior space (about 35,000 per square kilometer). If you assume the Ark Angel's working with five tiers the way the Macross was, she's got a population density in her colony area of 266,667 per square kilometer. It's a difference or orders of magnitude any way you shake it.

[Seto Kaiba]

so the density figures are too high for long term habitation? guess that means they weren't doing the "city in space' thing then, since HG's figures have to be accepted (unless and until HG comes out with another official product that changes them)

Therein lies the problem... we have HG material strongly suggesting these are "wandering city in space"-type colony ships, and the impossible population densities that would instantly turn the ship into a hellhole of human misery and overcrowding even in a short duration flight.

(it also suggests that they expected to have several million colonists to move around, since each Ark Angel class carrier three quarters of a million people, not counting crew.. and they were building several of them at space station liberty..)

With no known colonies in canon and the vast majority of the UEEF fleet (per canon stats) being less than 100,000 people in total... where are the people coming from? Either they were planning to take almost everyone on Earth after it was liberated, or there's a couple extra zeroes in the official number.

(Considering Tommy tends to base his stuff very heavily on Macross, I privately suspect the latter... that it's meant to have 7,500 or 75,000... not 750,000. It's very close to the number cited for a Megaroad-class ship, with the Ark Angel is a very close match to size-wise as well...)

[Jefffar]

Where does it say in Shadow Chronicles that it's the entire fleet above earth?

In the series it's supposed to be the entire UEEF... in RTSC, it's "most" rather than all of the UEEF (per AotSC pg21).

Where in Shadow Chronicles is it indicated that all of the ships involved are the ones on screen?

We see the entire fleet assembling... no mention is made of any other fleets attacking Earth. The fleet numbers exactly 395 ships arranged into 31 distinct groups... 30 literally-identical (copy-pasted) groups of 1 Ikazuchi-class ship and 12 Garfish-class ships, and 1 core group containing the SDF-4 and 4 Shimakaze-class ships. 3 ships are specifically noted as being absent from the fleet action... the Icarus, Pioneer, and Deucalion.

So we have the entire fleet, or is it most of the fleet or is it just three ships missing? Is that supposed to be the entire fleet on screen or is it possible there are other elements off screen?

We hear about a sizable force being planetside before the assault but never see how it gets there.

Per the series, this refers to the forces that were stranded on the planet during the two previous attempts to liberate Earth... the movie confirms this by having their point of contact be none other than Scott Bernard.

Actually, in the Shadow Chronicles Movie, Reihardt tries to raise ground commanders of UEEF forces but fails, indicating there were UEEF ground troops present. Scott then answers in after those other ground commanders are tried to demonstrate that things were going badly on the planet's surface. The bio they get on him indicates he's been in communications with the UEEF after his arrival on earth but before the battle. Likely this is his communications with the ground troop build up near Reflex Point.

Not all of these ground troops would be survivors from the various Mars divisions sent in earlier (most of them seem to have been vanquished at Point K).

Incidentally, production materials probably should not be taken as a representation of the full capabilities of an item. Production materials are made while production is in process and may be subject to change before the final version is released. They can be used as rough guides and estimates where other materials are not present, but they can't be expected to be authoritative of what the actual stats will be until corroborated through a completed product.

This is material from very close to the final production art... so it's an almost-ideal situation accuracy-wise.

Very close to final production art is not final production art.

Almost ideal is not ideal.

Sources that are not final production versions can only suggest what things were going to be, not give the final version. So we have suggestions about the capability and role of the Angel and Ark Angel class, but not a lot of the final figures.

[ShadowLogan]

"Scouting" generally carries the connotation of looking for details of the enemy's disposition, location, and fortifications... this was nothing but navigational surveys.

Which is still scouting. Apparently the UEEF couldn't or wouldn't rely on Zentreadi navigation information for what ever reason. They need that mapping information, which can only be acquired by scouting.

That's a very good question... the answer, based on what Harmony Gold has said and indicated in their leaked production materials, is "as long as it takes to find somewhere suitable to kick them off the ship".

Which quite frankly seems pretty stupid from a logistics standpoint. The SDF-1 had trouble dealing w/70k people w/n 12-1/2month period, the AA and Angel classes may be bigger than the SDF-1 but they aren't going to have an easier of a time it, especially if they are tossing in multipliers of extra people.

You couldn't fit 750,000 people into that ship, period, with how much war materiel is supposed to go in there... you'd achieve levels of population density that would make the most crowded cities on Earth look like ghost towns. I tend to discard the idea purely because it's ridiculous, and all the crew numbers in the Robotech stats are grossly exaggerated when compared to the animation.

No you can get 750k in there (multiple decks). It really depends how much space is reserved for the colonists, and how that space is allocated. The problem with building City Districts inside the ships is that they tend to result in a lot of wasted space. Lets say that the colonists have 1sq km per level, and they have 20 levels (per the Size Comparison Chart at RT.com the ship is similar in height to the SDF-1/3 so not unreasonable) as there is no reason they have to duplicate the SDF-1/Macross-City experience. That gives them a population density of 37,5000/sq km (which puts in in upper bracket). Now if the allocation of space and levels is different, it will be a different result, but by no means does it have to result in making crowded cities on Earth look like ghost towns (Manila per Wikipedia is ~42,000 per sq km.) if the space is allocated properly.

EDIT: Also, if you pulled every single warm body off the ships seen in RTSC, you wouldn't have nearly enough people to fill even 1 Ark Angel-class ship, let alone several. You wouldn't even get to 10% capacity if you drained every crewman and pilot from all 390 ships of the fleet.

What is odd is that both the Tok. and SDF-3 & SDF-4 all have capacities for passengers/crew that get into 100,000+ people. The UEEF is also going to exist as more than just ship crew, they have to have support from bases like ALUCE, SSL, and Tirol so there will be more people there. And you mention SSL is "lightly manned", just what does that mean numbers wise as it is very vague.

The SDF-4 alone has room for an additional 180,000 people. The SDF-3 120,000. So potentially the complements on those ships might be more than you are assuming, that includes the Ikazuchi which lists a generic statement w/o hard numbers.

All the more reason there wouldn't be colonies, yes? All but impossible to defend such a thing against the Invid's swarm tactics when you only have about 400 ships in your entire fleet... and the Regent is nowhere near as willing to live and let live as the Regess was.

Actually that shouldn't be a resason to avoid setting up colonies.

There were survivors... on the SDF-1. That's what the show tells us, friend. 70,000 people on the SDF-1, and Leonard tells us that only 70,000 people survived the rain of death... doesn't take much to put those together.

Which doesn't work for several reasons:
1. Leonard was not counting Zentraedi in that statement, who are as the show establishes essentially human, if he excluded one group of people there could be others.
2. To get the populations we see in later arcs, those 70k people would have to have had an unrealistic growth rate
3. We know that the devastation of the Earth was not 100%, so any people in those areas might not be counted as survivors

The only catch in the math is that the Shimakaze-class does not have a stated crew size. Assuming it's comparable to a fully loaded Garfish-class ship

That may not work. The listed size of the Shimakaze-class has it nearly as long as an Ikazuchi (548m vs 608m hull more w/engine shields and antenna). Even complement wise it is unique, more than a Garfish (36 VFs vs 15 VFs), but less than the Ikazuchi. By complement there is a x7 more people on an Ikazuchi than a Garfish.

By emptying every single UEEF ship left after the Battle of Reflex Point, it's odds on you'd barely get to 10% of the Ark Angel's alleged capacity.

What about ALUCE and SSL?

So then how did the masters take a Zor clone out of stasis?
I believe that they take some of the Zentradi soldiers out of sleep as well....

As Seto said, Zor example is utilizing Tirolian technology, technology that may be reserved for their use and not something they gave the Zentreadi as...

In RT, no we do not see anything like Stasis chambers for Zentreadi in the show. What you might be thinking of is the cloning chambers. Baring that example, you might be thinking of the Macross2 OVA, which is not part of Robotech, where we see the Zentran "sleeping".